Thread: Illuminati Secret Covenant Revealed

Yeah I know. Its just that my patience for sheeple who think they aren't simply because they fall for less-than-mainstream propaganda has long since worn thin. These are the worst kind of sheeple, imo. And I'm not saying this person is one of those people, I don't know who this person is or what has made them think they way they do, but everytime I see someone act like they might just be one, a puppet who ditched one set of strings just to replace them with another set...well I just don't hold my tounge anymore.

The fact is that there is only so much you can be sure of when you are this far removed from what is actually (or isn't actually) going on. All of these people who are convined that they have got it all figured out, regardless of the side, are tools.

They've somehow managed to loose their healthy level of skepticism by becomming too skeptical of only one side.

I love how conspiracy theorists are so sure of themselves. All it really is, is overcompensation for their doubt.

Not at all. The fact is logic is just fallible by nature. There are ways for certain arguments to make sense that aren't necessarily true. All one has to do is view it free of their conceptions that it's garbage. Once done, they simply filter other evidence in order to meet their new perspective. It's completely incidental and primarily unconscious but all people do it, we have a mindset and we filter everything we see to fit that mindset to the point where if substantial evidence goes against it we start to sound more and more ridiculous. Take UM and the Why Terrorism Exists thread, or religious people and all the evidence for evolution. Some people are forced to just downright unconsciously lie to themselves in order to protect their mindset.

This kind of stuff is bred from realizing there is something very wrong with the world. Why is it Republicans and Democrats both want freedom but assume the other party doesn't? Divide and Conquer, manipulating people's views of others to dehumanize them in each other's minds. Why is flouride in our water when studies show it increases cavities? Why do environmental organizations do nothing while land is stripped away by developers but won't shut up about the myth of overpopulation? Why are we constantly being fed bad information on TV and given a version of reality that denies history? Why do liberals and conservatives both think the media is controled by the otherside? Why is violent crime going down but gets more air time year after year?

All that's necessary to believe a conspiracy is to find little areas that unsubstantially hint at greater truth and using that to filter all information in a certain way to fit one's new world dichotomy. All of those questions could be answered 10 different ways. There's evidence for 10 different answers. The worst part is most of society just rejects what goes against the version of reality they are given which causes the minorities that follow them to get reactionary.

for the two posters above me.... (grasshoppa & ethen)

have either of you taken an honest look into these "conspiracies"?
what did you make of them?

I think there is a small difference between those who put weight in the conspiracies, and the people who deny them outright.. that is, only one group of people made a shift. we all grow up believing and buying into the same things. some of us took a deeper look, and saw things differently. the other group rode the same wagon the whole way.
weve been on the other side, and saw it for what we think it is, you never changed sides, and never got a new perspective on things. (im generalizing here. obviously everybody changes and grows etc.. but in a different way).if you have looked into this stuff, and i mean honestly, with no preconceived notions of what you'll find, or arguments ready. if you've done that, I respect your point of view, if you havent looked into it, or did it without an open mind, then it is ignorance to call other people stupid for beleiving it.
and yes, it goes both ways. someone who does believe it can be guilty of ignorance for outright denying counter arguments, and not lending them an open mind.

there is a difference between healthy skepticism, and putting a wall up.
the fact that these claims are outrages, makes them easy to be laughed at, and also easily hid from the majority of people for that very reason.
thats what the "document" in the first post of this thread is saying.
i personaly think some random guy wrote that, it wasnt a secretly leaked document. doesnt mean it isn't on point though.

imo, theres most definetly a rabbit hole, and we're headed straight down that sum'bitch right now, whether we know were in it or not.

Originally Posted by awoke

have either of you taken an honest look into these "conspiracies"?

I have, which is why it bothers me when people (not you of course) assume this:

Originally Posted by awoke

then it is ignorance to call other people stupid for beleiving it.

Originally Posted by awoke

there is a difference between healthy skepticism, and putting a wall up.

Same is true for both sides, as I'm sure you would agree.

Originally Posted by awoke

the fact that these claims are outrages, makes them easy to be laughed at, and also easily hid from the majority of people for that very reason.

That is true, but is it not also possible that perhaps the claim is outrageous and hard to believe because it might not be true, and that perhaps it isn't all just part of "their" plan? Both seem possible to me, but rarely (at least in my experience) do you ever find someone that balanced. They are either pretty convinced that these theories are true, or they are pretty convinced that they are false.

This brings me to a problem I run into a lot when debating theories like this. These theories are, for the most part, not falsifiable. If there is inadequate evidence, that’s because it’s a “cover up”. If there is evidence to the contrary, its just “disinformation”. And often these things are actually used to support such theories! No matter what you have to say against them, they can always be rationalized as just confirmation of the theory. Its paranoia's dream come true.

And the dangerous thing is that, once you begin believing in these types of connections, it becomes disturbingly close to a self-reinforcing delusion. When connections that are obscure and farfetched only confirm your paranoia, when you think that the theory sounding crazy is "all part of their plan" (instead of it, perhaps actually being crazy), etc…its a vicious cycle of paranoia. The illuminati is like the boogeyman in our closet. Its like believing he’s not there when you turn on the light open the door because that’s exactly how he works his psychological torture...its not falsifiable.

But maybe it isn’t real after all, and all of these connections are, like Ominous Deus said, is just a case of what psychologists call “confirmation bias”. And would you like to know which sorts of theories flurish best because of confirmation bias? The one’s that rely on the existence and workings of imperceptible entities with extraordinary abilities.

And the funny part is that, even after reading this, I know someone is going to see the sense in what I have to say, except they are going to twist it around and use it to further justify believing in such theories. They will probably tell themselves "All of these reasons to not believe are just too convienient...they did this on purpose because, this way, no one would belive it were true! The reasons not to believe are too convincing!1!!"

Originally Posted by ethen

I have, which is why it bothers me when people (not you of course) assume this:






Same is true for both sides, as I'm sure you would agree.



That is true, but is it not also possible that perhaps the claim is outrageous and hard to believe because it might not be true, and that perhaps it isn't all just part of "their" plan? Both seem possible to me, but rarely (at least in my experience) do you ever find someone that balanced. They are either pretty convinced that these theories are true, or they are pretty convinced that they are false.

This brings me to a problem I run into a lot when debating theories like this. These theories are, for the most part, not falsifiable. If there is inadequate evidence, that’s because it’s a “cover up”. If there is evidence to the contrary, its just “disinformation”. And often these things are actually used to support such theories! No matter what you have to say against them, they can always be rationalized as just confirmation of the theory. Its paranoia's dream come true.

And the dangerous thing is that, once you begin believing in these connections, it becomes disturbingly close to a self-reinforcing delusion. The fact the connections are obscure and “unreliable” become a confirmation of your paranoia, the fact that people think you are crazy is "all part of their plan", etc…The illuminati is like the boogeyman in our closet. He’s not there when you turn on the light open the door because that’s exactly how he works his psychological torture...

Or maybe it isn’t real after all, and all of these connections are, like Ominous Deus said, is just a case of what psychologists call “confirmation bias”. And would you like to know which sorts of theories flurish best because of confirmation bias? The one’s that rely on the existence or workings of imperceptible entities with extraordinary abilities. Sound familiar?

And the funny part is that, even after reading this, I know someone is going to see the sense in what I have to say, except they are going to twist it around and use it to further justify believing in such theories. They will probably tell themselves "All of these reasons to not believe are just too convienient...they did this on purpose because, this way, no one would belive it were true! The reasons not to believe are too convincing!1!!"

I see your point, I do, and here comes the "but"...

but, all you have to do is look around you. look at all the atrocities that have been commited by governments world wide. the very ground were standing on here in america, was stolen by force. tons of people slain, boatloads of blood spilled, unbelievable misery. and look at whats happening now, were in Iraq for what reason? aint we after Osama? wasn't he supposed to be in Afghanistan? what does liberating the Iraqi people have to do with 9/11?
Do you really think we're killing more terrorists than were creating? people are fighting us over there, because they want us the fuck out of mtheir country. as we would if people occupied us.
we're so desensitized to things. you can go weeks here without remembering we are at war. and even when we think of the war over there, we see explosions and people shooting. were not seeing the bodies blown apart from those bombs, and the heads caved in by the force of those bullets. numbers are reaching 1 million in Iraqi civillian deaths. little kids are having their heads split open, and their mothers are standing over them crying while their brains drip onto the pavement. shit is fucking ugly, man. unspeakable violence.
and for what? and its not just the ugliness of the war, its the way they paint it. "all in the name of freedom, to help the people of Iraq, were doing the moral thing"...it's bullshit. it's more than bullshit, it's unforgivable.
The media doesn't dig into anything, they just show you pictures that have been pre-approved.

The people who run this country, and other countries around the wolrd, are capable of all of this unspeakably ugly shit thats happening. they're doing it right now, in broad daylight, balls out in the wind....
and we're watching MTV, were eating food that's incredibly unhealthy for our bodies and minds, while others, even in our own country, our own city limits for that matter, are starving to death.
your government does not give a fuck about you. not in the least bit. they'd cut your throat for the presidency. they'd blow up the world trade centers for their own agenda. why do we trust them? because they have a clever use of language, theyre using hundreds and hundreds of years worth of knowledge of how to control people, and make them look were you want them too. to make them ask the questions that aren't going to make people cave their skulls in when they answer. shit is rigged.

the government is capable of horrible shit, it's not a stretch to believe they would spend untold amounts of time and money in keeping us blind to what theyre doing. becasue WE, the people, are not monsters like them. we know compassion, and if we really had our wits about us, their shit would be over in a flash. they know that. we outnumber then on a grand scale. our money is how they get things done, and whats even crazier, is their getting US to do their bidding. you think cops arent going to arrest people on the terms they set? we are the cops. we start killing cops for carrying out their will, and we're killing ourselves. puupet strings stretch high.

when I honestly look at whats happening in the world, it doesnt astonish me that these people are trying to keep us in the dark. trying to squeeze what they can from us before they leave us to die. its plausible.

your right though, you can neither prove, nor disprove this shit.
and although you covered it, i'll go ahead and say it... that would be a brilliant way to cover things up. no proof on either side of the fence, keeps people like us fighting eachother and not them.

maybe it all is bullshit, i hope to hell it is. my gut, life experiance, and eyes when i look around, lead to beleive otherwise though.



sorry that was so long. Im listening to some really ill music right now, and that usually gets my lost in thought. it gets ugly when im typing out those thoughts, lol.




oddly enough, im listening to the music on an illuminati video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yw7z...eature=related

I bet like a lot of things, which I can't really think of an example of now, there is some truth to this, a whole bunch of crap, and some parts that aren't known that are even worse and stranger.

I don't buy that airplanes are spreading chemicals, vaccines are poison, etc. Pollution is everywhere because people need a bunch of crap to live and consumption is unlimited as long as they can keep making the crap cheap enough that people buy it. If they are trying to kill people, they aren't doing a very good job, seeing as how the population is going up in places where people don't use birth control. In places where people are educated, they limit their own reproduction. Lifespans aren't shorter, they are longer, and they'll be glad to sell you a hundred different drugs to keep you alive even longer.

Most people's own worst enemy is their own self. Corporations are happy to help them dig their grave by providing them with too much cheap, unhealthy food, entertaiment that rots their brains and their bodies, and lots of credit to hang themselves with, but ultimately, people can escape those traps if they have any sense. You don't have to fall for it. Don't buy their crap, don't borrow money from them, don't listen to them, and you are free from them, as long as you live in one of the semi-free societies. I know it is hard to do, but it can be done.

However, I know there are lots of things going on behind the scenes that regular people never here about which involve lots of money and power. They don't care about the future of regular people either; they would trade our freedom and security for money, and probably are right now.

I truly believe we live in the last best time on earth. It's all down hill from here for the majority of people. Either the population keeps going up and people kill themselves that way, or it crashes due to some catastrophe, because people won't limit themselves. I think our government (U.S.) is not really the democracy it pretends to be, and someday they will quit pretending. Unless economic collapse comes first, and China ends up telling us what to do.

Ultimately the people in this country screwed themselves, I think. Maybe they didn't have a chance, but they didn't really try very hard. Present company excepted, of course.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

I bet like a lot of things, which I can't really think of an example of now, there is some truth to this, a whole bunch of crap, and some parts that aren't known that are even worse and stranger.

I don't buy that airplanes are spreading chemicals, vaccines are poison, etc. Pollution is everywhere because people need a bunch of crap to live and consumption is unlimited as long as they can keep making the crap cheap enough that people buy it. If they are trying to kill people, they aren't doing a very good job, seeing as how the population is going up in places where people don't use birth control. In places where people are educated, they limit their own reproduction. Lifespans aren't shorter, they are longer, and they'll be glad to sell you a hundred different drugs to keep you alive even longer.

Most people's own worst enemy is their own self. Corporations are happy to help them dig their grave by providing them with too much cheap, unhealthy food, entertaiment that rots their brains and their bodies, and lots of credit to hang themselves with, but ultimately, people can escape those traps if they have any sense. You don't have to fall for it. Don't buy their crap, don't borrow money from them, don't listen to them, and you are free from them, as long as you live in one of the semi-free societies. I know it is hard to do, but it can be done.

However, I know there are lots of things going on behind the scenes that regular people never here about which involve lots of money and power. They don't care about the future of regular people either; they would trade our freedom and security for money, and probably are right now.

I truly believe we live in the last best time on earth. It's all down hill from here for the majority of people. Either the population keeps going up and people kill themselves that way, or it crashes due to some catastrophe, because people won't limit themselves. I think our government (U.S.) is not really the democracy it pretends to be, and someday they will quit pretending. Unless economic collapse comes first, and China ends up telling us what to do.

Ultimately the people in this country screwed themselves, I think. Maybe they didn't have a chance, but they didn't really try very hard. Present company excepted, of course.

nah, im guilty of the things i hate. i own up to that. i eat Mc.Donalds, watch shit TV, work the jobs that keeps them going. it's damn hard not to. the society we live in makes it very, very difficult to break away.

if you're interested, I saw a video today about vaccines. where it's admitted that HIV and other desieses, have been brought into this country thru vaccines. they chalk it up to crude science, as it was some time ago. up to whoever watches it to decide whether or not it was intentional.
Schools today, are threatening to imprison parents who don't get their kids vaccinated, even though a lot of people are worried these vaccines play a role in autism. theres something wrong with that. theyre threatening us with jail time, for not putting what they tell us to put into our kids. despite legitamate concerns being raised. they say it's because a childs education is so imprtant, they don't want them missing school due to sickness.
look at our education system. if it's all important, why are they doing such a grimace worthy job with it? our education system sucks.
why not stop giving tax breaks to the rich (the richest 1 percent in this country, have more wealth than the bottom 99 percent combined) and pump that moey into the education. better yet, why not throw some critacl thinking into the education, and at least attempt to fix the weak points, instead of maintaning the status quo? were serious enough to imprison people for their childs education, but not at all serious about giving these kids the best education we can provide.

I find all these commercials for medicine now and days funny. turn on the TV for 1 hour, and i bet my life you see more than a few commercials for pharmacuticals. why? we can't buy these products, you have to have a prescription to get them. yet theyre running ads for them all day, so people will go to their doctor and ask to switch medication. when has our health become a money making machine?

of course they're not killing us. what would they do if we werent here to make them loads of money and run the country? were sure as hell killing a lot of other people we don't need.

as for pregnancies.. why do we have an abstinence only sex ed plan? why dont we teach contraception? sure, they don't want kids having sex until marrige, but were assaulted with images of brittany spears gyrating in a thong.

I agree the good times here are on their way out. but we differ on the details, I don't think its that last of the good times. we have to lay down shit to grow the grass. things will get uglier before they get better, but judging from howugly things are, when they do get better, it will be amazing.

Originally Posted by awoke

I see your point, I do, and here comes the "but"...

but, all you have to do is look around you. look at all the atrocities that have been commited by governments world wide. the very ground were standing on here in america, was stolen by force. tons of people slain, boatloads of blood spilled, unbelievable misery.

How does that support the existence of the illuminati?

Originally Posted by awoke

and look at whats happening now, were in Iraq for what reason? aint we after Osama? wasn't he supposed to be in Afghanistan? what does liberating the Iraqi people have to do with 9/11?
Do you really think we're killing more terrorists than were creating? people are fighting us over there, because they want us the fuck out of mtheir country. as we would if people occupied us.

So perhaps our government/president had alternative motives for invading Iraq...again, how does this support the existence of the illuminati as opposed to just a corrupt president? Those two things are on completely different levels of plausibility.

Originally Posted by awoke

we're so desensitized to things. you can go weeks here without remembering we are at war. and even when we think of the war over there, we see explosions and people shooting. were not seeing the bodies blown apart from those bombs, and the heads caved in by the force of those bullets. numbers are reaching 1 million in Iraqi civillian deaths. little kids are having their heads split open, and their mothers are standing over them crying while their brains drip onto the pavement. shit is fucking ugly, man. unspeakable violence.

Again, powerful imagery but what’s it have to do with the Illuminati?

Originally Posted by awoke

and its not just the ugliness of the war, its the way they paint it. "all in the name of freedom, to help the people of Iraq, were doing the moral thing"...it's bullshit. it's more than bullshit, it's unforgivable.

Yes, despite the fact that took a sadistic dictator out of power, I see your point. If we just assume there were no good intentions behind this war, does that really reinforce the idea of the Illuminati or simply American Propaganda?

Originally Posted by awoke

The media doesn't dig into anything, they just show you pictures that have been pre-approved.

Why would the government want to show the ugly side of war to the American people? War is never pleasant, and showing all of the nasty details on TV isn't going to benefit them...so why does this sort of censorship tie into the illuminati??

Originally Posted by awoke

The people who run this country, and other countries around the wolrd, are capable of all of this unspeakably ugly shit thats happening. they're doing it right now, in broad daylight, balls out in the wind....

I thought that was a given.

Originally Posted by awoke

and we're watching MTV, were eating food that's incredibly unhealthy for our bodies and minds, while others, even in our own country, our own city limits for that matter, are starving to death.

And none of this is our own faults? Is the illuminati holding a gun to my head when I go to McDonalds or flip on MTV? We need to take some fucking responsibility for our "collective" actions instead of pinning it on some invisible malevolent force. The world isn't perfect, and simply because it isn't doesn't mean an organization like the illuminati exists. Human nature is more than enough to explain why this is the case...

Originally Posted by awoke

your government does not give a fuck about you. not in the least bit. they'd cut your throat for the presidency. they'd blow up the world trade centers for their own agenda. why do we trust them? because they have a clever use of language, theyre using hundreds and hundreds of years worth of knowledge of how to control people, and make them look were you want them too. to make them ask the questions that aren't going to make people cave their skulls in when they answer. shit is rigged.

yeah, its called politics

Originally Posted by awoke

the government is capable of horrible shit, it's not a stretch to believe they would spend untold amounts of time and money in keeping us blind to what theyre doing.

I agree

Originally Posted by awoke

becasue WE, the people, are not monsters like them

lol. We've been killing each other for millions of years, long before government. WE have invented a million different ways to kill and hurt each other. WE did this, not "them". PEOPLE did this to themselves, and have for a long time.

Originally Posted by awoke

your right though, you can neither prove, nor disprove this shit. and although you covered it, i'll go ahead and say it... that would be a brilliant way to cover things up. no proof on either side of the fence, keeps people like us fighting eachother and not them.

I agree, it would be ingenious. In fact, I'm pretty confident that any organization as powerful as our government does stuff that people probably wouldn't approve of, and then covers it up. But there is a world of difference between that and the Illuminati being real. For all of these things to be all the doing of a single, timeless, evil organization is counter-intuitive to how such people would be. How does such a power-crazy organization (with power-crazy people) cooperate so seamlessly for so long without destroying themselves, much less to do so so perfectly that they are invisible?

I much more willing to believe that there are several powerful, secret-ish organizations (like governments, corporations, etc) that rise and fall, instead of one grand organization that’s been around since the dawn of time…

my point was, if were capable of all this terrible shit, why is something like the "illuminati" so laughable and stupid to people? right before the invasion of Iraq, there were huge protests around the world. I drove 900 miles to Ney York to take part in one of them, as did a lot of people. people went way out of their way to tell the powers at be, they don't approve. it was the biggest protest in the hitsory of humanity. what did it accomplish? nothing. nothing at all. we still went to Iraq. because were not really in control. somebody is though, somebody has to be.

look into the voting machines that were used (and will be used again) when Bush was elected. we didnt elect him. he didnt even win the majority vote.
do you honestly think bush is smart enough, and forward thinking enough to do the shit hes doing? fuck no, the guys a moron. who then is pulling his strings? it aint us "the people". he has the lowest approval rating ever. of anyone. his shits in like the 25-30 percent range. money equals power, these people are the puppets of those with money, campaign contributions, favors owed etc... the richest people in the world, are the illuminati. i bet we see them. the heads of global companies and banks etc... they run shit. they have their own agenda. the only care about their selves and their agenda. thats why so many people are dying, and have been dying around the world in bullshit wars and the like. MASSIVE amounts of money are being generated from this war. whos it going to? the oil were securing in Iraq = Massive amounts of money. The richest 1 percent of this country have more money than the bottom 99 percent combined. think about that. think about how powerful those people are. they can have, and do, anything they want. the world is their oyster. when you're that wealthy, you're divorced from reality. we don't live in the same world as these people. but we build their world.

No, I did not bother to read the whole thread.

Alright, what warrants you that your so spoken of covenant really leaked from the deepest secrets of the Illuminati? You say we have to open our minds to the possibilities, but you are hell not being smart.

If the Illuminati really exists, and does really have such evil plans, information like this would NEVER leak. My idea is that (if they exist) they "pretend it leaked" in such a way to get what they want. That would only be a lie to make their goals easier to reach. Or maybe, they knew we were gonna think it was false, so it is actually true. THAT, friends, is true conspirational theory.

Or, it could also be something to keep our attention while they focus on something else..

Wanna complain, wanna create some conspiracy? - ok, but do it right, smart people you are

Forgive me if this was said before.

Originally Posted by ethen

And none of this is our own faults? Is the illuminati holding a gun to my head when I go to McDonalds or flip on MTV? We need to take some fucking responsibility for our "collective" actions instead of pinning it on some invisible malevolent force. The world isn't perfect, and simply because it isn't doesn't mean an organization like the illuminati exists. Human nature is more than enough to explain why this is the case...

it's entirely our fualt. we have the power to stop all this shit from happening.
maybe "greed" itself is the illuminati, hell if i know. I do know reality is easily stranger than fiction in a lot of cases. realities deeper. what's that famous quote that says something like "the only difference between reality and fiction, is that fiction has to be grounded in reality".

for the record, this is the first time in my life ive ever argued the existance of the illuminati. ive always said "it's possible, but i dont know". I still don't, im open to being wrong. but my gut and head, lean me more to the side of the world being run by the few. your average man feels powerless, as he is. the problem is when we all feel powerless together, which we aren't.

Originally Posted by awoke

nah, im guilty of the things i hate. i own up to that. i eat Mc.Donalds, watch shit TV, work the jobs that keeps them going. it's damn hard not to. the society we live in makes it very, very difficult to break away.

I know, I do too. I talk about being much better than I really am. It's really hard. All we can do is the best that we can to move away from it. Everybody has to eat, and work, and there are limited choices for those things, of course, and for some people the opportunities are really limited due to their circumstances. The most important thing is staying out of debt. Then they really own you. The only thing anyone should ever borrow money for is an education and a house--because they are the only things that go up in value.

Originally Posted by awoke

if you're interested, I saw a video today about vaccines. where it's admitted that HIV and other desieses, have been brought into this country thru vaccines. they chalk it up to crude science, as it was some time ago. up to whoever watches it to decide whether or not it was intentional.

I would watch the video, but I really don't think that vaccine manufacturerers are killing people on purpose. They may occasionally screw up, but in general I don't think that they don't want to kill or hurt people. Infectious disease kills many, many fewer people now than it used to, and that is partly due to vaccines. Pharmaceuticals invest a lot of money in vaccines, and make a lot of money from the profits. It is in their financial interest for that to work out as well as possible.

Originally Posted by awoke

Schools today, are threatening to imprison parents who don't get their kids vaccinated, even though a lot of people are worried these vaccines play a role in autism. theres something wrong with that. theyre threatening us with jail time, for not putting what they tell us to put into our kids. despite legitamate concerns being raised. they say it's because a childs education is so imprtant, they don't want them missing school due to sickness.

The forced vaccinations are not something I agree with, but I will tell you their reasoning. The more members of a group that are vaccinated, the safer the group as a whole is. It is called herd immunity (for the "sheeple" ). There may be some individuals that are harmed, but overall the safety of the group is increased. It is just bad luck if any one person is the one who gets hurt. The risk/benefit is considered acceptable.

Originally Posted by awoke

look at our education system. if it's all important, why are they doing such a grimace worthy job with it? our education system sucks.

It's not really all important; most people could care less, I imagine. People vote no to property tax increases all the time. You get what you pay for if education is free. Once someone is old enough to know the reason why they should care, they have to make their own way as far as education. I don't necessarily agree with that in theory, but unfortunately that's the way it is due to economics. There will always be people to do the jobs that need training for, even if we have to import them. Our primary and secondary systems probably suck, but if a kid makes it thru that, our universities are the best there are, and there are still ways to get the money for that, but I realize that is getting tougher.

I don't know why the politicians act like education is so important when obviously it isn't treated like it is. I'll tell you a conspiracy theory of mine--I think Bush's No Child Left Behind is the beginning of the indoctrination into their fascist future; they want to begin to exercise control over people, and this is how they begin to get a way into the minds of the young. The schools shouldn't be trying to pass the tests and get the federal money, they should be running away from it. I don't know why so-called conservatives invite this federal government control into what should be a locally run thing.

Originally Posted by awoke

why not stop giving tax breaks to the rich (the richest 1 percent in this country, have more wealth than the bottom 99 percent combined) and pump that moey into the education. better yet, why not throw some critacl thinking into the education, and at least attempt to fix the weak points, instead of maintaning the status quo? were serious enough to imprison people for their childs education, but not at all serious about giving these kids the best education we can provide.

I guess like I said it is not really that important--it's just a lie to get people to vote for them. The Democrats and Republicans agree to split up the people a certain way, they get the votes, then they go on and do exactly what they want. There has got to be a profit in it for someone to care enough to fix it.

Originally Posted by awoke

I find all these commercials for medicine now and days funny. turn on the TV for 1 hour, and i bet my life you see more than a few commercials for pharmacuticals. why? we can't buy these products, you have to have a prescription to get them. yet theyre running ads for them all day, so people will go to their doctor and ask to switch medication. when has our health become a money making machine?

They run the ads, because they are effective for sales just like any other product, not because people need all those drugs. I guess medicine has always been a business, somewhat different than others, but ultimately everyone in it is there to make a profit, even the "non-profits" like some hospitals and the Red Cross--they have to, just to keep up and to stay in business. Unfortunately, over the last 40 years or so it has become a huge business in which lots of the money is siphoned off into middle-men like the insurance companies. Crappy medicine could be free; good medicine is never going to be, but there could be a much better way of doing it, without such huge profits going to insurance companies and pharmaceuticals.

Originally Posted by awoke

of course they're not killing us. what would they do if we werent here to make them loads of money and run the country? were sure as hell killing a lot of other people we don't need.

Yea--that's the part of the conspiracy I didn't understand, I see what you are saying.

Originally Posted by awoke

as for pregnancies.. why do we have an abstinence only sex ed plan? why dont we teach contraception? sure, they don't want kids having sex until marrige, but were assaulted with images of brittany spears gyrating in a thong.

I think the abstinence-only people are the religious fundamentalists exercising their control which people have handed to them. However if they can make a profit from thong-gyrations, I'm sure they are not opposed; money will always be more important. It's just disconnects--you sell what sells, meanwhile try to control the sheeple. (I love that word, I have to keep using it now. )

Originally Posted by awoke

I agree the good times here are on their way out. but we differ on the details, I don't think its that last of the good times. we have to lay down shit to grow the grass. things will get uglier before they get better, but judging from howugly things are, when they do get better, it will be amazing.

Yea, it would be amazing if it got better. I'm just not sure how it will happen. Maybe it will for some people some day. I tend to think it will go down in our lifetimes, but I guess we'll see.

OK, it took me so long to write this like 5 more things got posted. I wanted to add one thing:

Originally Posted by awoke

look into the voting machines that were used (and will be used again) when Bush was elected. we didnt elect him. he didnt even win the majority vote.
do you honestly think bush is smart enough, and forward thinking enough to do the shit hes doing? fuck no, the guys a moron. who then is pulling his strings? it aint us "the people". he has the lowest approval rating ever. of anyone. his shits in like the 25-30 percent range. money equals power, these people are the puppets of those with money, campaign contributions, favors owed etc... the richest people in the world, are the illuminati. i bet we see them. the heads of global companies and banks etc... they run shit. they have their own agenda. the only care about their selves and their agenda. thats why so many people are dying, and have been dying around the world in bullshit wars and the like. MASSIVE amounts of money are being generated from this war. whos it going to? the oil were securing in Iraq = Massive amounts of money. The richest 1 percent of this country have more money than the bottom 99 percent combined. think about that. think about how powerful those people are. they can have, and do, anything they want. the world is their oyster. when you're that wealthy, you're divorced from reality. we don't live in the same world as these people. but we build their world.

That I agree with 100%.

Originally Posted by awoke

my point was, if were capable of all this terrible shit, why is something like the "illuminati" so laughable and stupid to people? right before the invasion of Iraq, there were huge protests around the world. I drove 900 miles to Ney York to take part in one of them, as did a lot of people. people went way out of their way to tell the powers at be, they don't approve. it was the biggest protest in the hitsory of humanity. what did it accomplish? nothing. nothing at all. we still went to Iraq. because were not really in control. somebody is though, somebody has to be.

look into the voting machines that were used (and will be used again) when Bush was elected. we didnt elect him. he didnt even win the majority vote.
do you honestly think bush is smart enough, and forward thinking enough to do the shit hes doing? fuck no, the guys a moron. who then is pulling his strings? it aint us "the people". he has the lowest approval rating ever. of anyone. his shits in like the 25-30 percent range. money equals power, these people are the puppets of those with money, campaign contributions, favors owed etc... the richest people in the world, are the illuminati. i bet we see them. the heads of global companies and banks etc... they run shit. they have their own agenda. the only care about their selves and their agenda. thats why so many people are dying, and have been dying around the world in bullshit wars and the like. MASSIVE amounts of money are being generated from this war. whos it going to? the oil were securing in Iraq = Massive amounts of money. The richest 1 percent of this country have more money than the bottom 99 percent combined. think about that. think about how powerful those people are. they can have, and do, anything they want. the world is their oyster. when you're that wealthy, you're divorced from reality. we don't live in the same world as these people. but we build their world.

I have being targeted by something from the ocean which I believe is in control. enough said

People often don't realise that society has been improving throughout the ages. Just look at the conditions under the British empire's golden age, or the Roman empire for that matter. Sure we still have wars and corruption, but core human values have, in general, improved.

Originally Posted by awoke

my point was, if were capable of all this terrible shit, why is something like the "illuminati" so laughable and stupid to people?

I just explained why. It’s because that next step in logic entails much more to it than you seem to be acknowledging. Basically what you are saying is that, if a government or a corporation can be corrupt, then why not every government and every big corporation all being part of the same grand corruption? Can’t you see the difference in plausibility between those two scenarios? The first example, at least in my mind, is almost certainly true. I have no doubt in my mind that some corporations and some governments are corrupt. I get that. But what you are talking about when you speak of the illuminati existing is so far beyond that, its not just the next “step” in logic. You are talking about a seamless control over the WORLDS population by a SINGLE organization over every continents (how before technology?) and across dozens of MILLENIA to become what could be described as, for a lack of better words, omnipotent, omnipresent, and omnicious. Does that sound humanly possible to you? Because to me, for something like this to have been able to be pulled off (and pulled off so perfectly that it has been invisible), it would take “unhuman” qualities.

But let me guess, that where the aliens come in?

Originally Posted by awoke

right before the invasion of Iraq, there were huge protests around the world. I drove 900 miles to Ney York to take part in one of them, as did a lot of people. people went way out of their way to tell the powers at be, they don't approve. it was the biggest protest in the hitsory of humanity. what did it accomplish? nothing. nothing at all. we still went to Iraq. because were not really in control. somebody is though, somebody has to be.

Yeah, the government is in control. In essence, we hire the government to control us. We elect who we want in charge. That’s shouldn’t shock and disturb you…its not a secret at all. And quite frankly, if the government thinks it needs to do something, protesting isn’t going to stop that. And the unfortunate reality is that sometimes you have to do questionable things to keep things running. People don’t seem to be able to handle that truth too well, and if it were up to “the people”, I don’t think they would have what it takes to make the hard decisions. That’s just a harsh dose of reality right there. I want perfection, we all want perfection. No one should have to get hurt, no one should have to suffer, everyone should be able to get along and function flawlessly together with love and peace. But that’s incompatible with human nature. That was never in the cards for us.

Originally Posted by awoke

look into the voting machines that were used (and will be used again) when Bush was elected. we didnt elect him. he didnt even win the majority vote.

That’s because we don’t actually live in a true democracy. Do you know how the electoral college works? It tries to help balance the control of the “popular vote”. If we lived in a true democracy, states like Texas, New York, and California would basically have full control over the country because they have far more votes than any other state. Unless the other 50 states came together as a collective (which, lets face it, wouldn’t happens because we can’t agree on things), the rest of the country would be at the whim of a few select states. And the founding fathers new this, which is why they came up with the electoral college. Each state gets a certain number of representatives (proportional to their population), and those representatives relay what the people think. In so doing, the power is much more evenly distributed across the states.

It’s not all about sheer numbers, its about winning the most electoral college votes…which means targeting specific states as opposed to the overall population. The fact is that people voted for Bush….lots of people, two different times over the span of 4 years. And this is what I mean by taking responsibility for our actions. We deliberately put him in power, yeah it sucks that he wasn’t a good president, but its not like he forced his way in.

Originally Posted by awoke

do you honestly think bush is smart enough, and forward thinking enough to do the shit hes doing? fuck no, the guys a moron. who then is pulling his strings? it aint us "the people". he has the lowest approval rating ever. of anyone. his shits in like the 25-30 percent range. money equals power, these people are the puppets of those with money, campaign contributions, favors owed etc... the richest people in the world, are the illuminati. i bet we see them. the heads of global companies and banks etc... they run shit. they have their own agenda. the only care about their selves and their agenda. thats why so many people are dying, and have been dying around the world in bullshit wars and the like. MASSIVE amounts of money are being generated from this war. whos it going to? the oil were securing in Iraq = Massive amounts of money. The richest 1 percent of this country have more money than the bottom 99 percent combined. think about that. think about how powerful those people are. they can have, and do, anything they want. the world is their oyster. when you're that wealthy, you're divorced from reality. we don't live in the same world as these people. but we build their world.

I don’t think he is as stupid as you would like to believe, I just think he is a terrible public speaker. He did graduate from Yale. And no, its not just Bush making these decisions, it’s also his administration. And yes, money is involved, its called lobbying. Again, none of this is new or secret, nor is it grounds for invoking the existence of the illuminati. For someone who seems to be looking for answers, you don’t seem to be considering the basic structure of our government. To me, it’s seems like need to balance your research a bit more. Perhaps then things wouldn’t seem so lop-sided…

Sometimes I wonder if believing in the illuminati is how people channel there angst for all of the suffering in the world. They demonize it, they personify it, and then they have a target/an outlet for these feelings now that they have something specific to blame.

Just a thought.

Originally Posted by awoke

my point was, if were capable of all this terrible shit, why is something like the "illuminati" so laughable and stupid to people? right before the invasion of Iraq, there were huge protests around the world. I drove 900 miles to Ney York to take part in one of them, as did a lot of people. people went way out of their way to tell the powers at be, they don't approve. it was the biggest protest in the hitsory of humanity. what did it accomplish? nothing. nothing at all. we still went to Iraq. because were not really in control. somebody is though, somebody has to be.

look into the voting machines that were used (and will be used again) when Bush was elected. we didnt elect him. he didnt even win the majority vote.
do you honestly think bush is smart enough, and forward thinking enough to do the shit hes doing? fuck no, the guys a moron. who then is pulling his strings? it aint us "the people". he has the lowest approval rating ever. of anyone. his shits in like the 25-30 percent range. money equals power, these people are the puppets of those with money, campaign contributions, favors owed etc... the richest people in the world, are the illuminati. i bet we see them. the heads of global companies and banks etc... they run shit. they have their own agenda. the only care about their selves and their agenda. thats why so many people are dying, and have been dying around the world in bullshit wars and the like. MASSIVE amounts of money are being generated from this war. whos it going to? the oil were securing in Iraq = Massive amounts of money. The richest 1 percent of this country have more money than the bottom 99 percent combined. think about that. think about how powerful those people are. they can have, and do, anything they want. the world is their oyster. when you're that wealthy, you're divorced from reality. we don't live in the same world as these people. but we build their world.

Good point. As im not a US citizen, but more like a neighbor i researched The US history starting from Pearl Harbor. The Gab, starts there, when the US president was supposedly assassinated by some mere moron.
The truth is that it was never shown publicly. The real Killer was JFK's Driver.
Source : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df20CXzL7IM

The next point is Pearl Harbor, The government knew the Japanese are coming, and yet they did not interfere. And let the innocent people die in wane.

911 is the trigger, those who believe the conspiracy is bs, please dont even bother talking. Do some research, before debating something that you never thought about. The proof is out here, who will you believe? the people? or the government who feeds you with lies? your choice.

The Illuminati came into existence in 1777. These people are here for a long time. Generations after generations past, and they are more powerful than ever, just look at the dollar bill, you will see that they own all the banks just from that peek. People, im talking about hundreds of years, they have been developing our economy since beginning of our intellectual.

Watch Zeitgeist if you have guts. And show me if something is BS in it.
http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

Debating on a topic which started hundreds of years ago, is not something we can ignore nor understand. We grow up in an environment which they created. We eat what they want us to eat. We learn what they want us to learn. We are all controlled by them.

The elections don't exist for those who don't know. It started from the 40's when the Federal bank took over the monetary system. They choose their people in the Bohemian Grove meetings. Do some research. and you will see what i mean. The elections are totally controlled by the Elite's. They do not work as they used to. Computers can be manipulated from all sides.

Talking about conspiracy's?? will you ignore that JFK said they are real? wont you believe your former president? who else will you believe if not him,? im tired of reading all these useless responses. They seem to be so drastically non intelligent. RESEARCH PEOPLE, STOP LIVING IN UR OWN LIES.

You can flame me as much as you want, but rest assure, when the time comes... the truth decent upon your heads. At that time, it will be too late to stop it.

Did you even read anything I've said so far (assuming you were aiming that towards me)? I swear, I could rebuttal everything you have just said with stuff I have already said in this discussion.

I'm sorry, but when the posts have to be as long as they are in order to explain myself adequately, its just too much effort to keep repeating myself to people who blow in here with the same accusations others have already made, drop a couple links to youtube videos that we've already seen, and then act like they've just proven the world biggest secret in 8 minutes.

Originally Posted by ethen

its just too much effort to keep repeating myself to people who blow in here with the same accusations others have already made, drop a couple links to youtube videos that we've already seen, and then act like they've just proven the world biggest secret in 8 minutes.

I just explained why. It’s because that next step in logic entails much more to it than you seem to be acknowledging. Basically what you are saying is that, if a government or a corporation can be corrupt, then why not every government and every big corporation all being part of the same grand corruption? Can’t you see the difference in plausibility between those two scenarios? The first example, at least in my mind, is almost certainly true. I have no doubt in my mind that some corporations and some governments are corrupt. I get that. But what you are talking about when you speak of the illuminati existing is so far beyond that, its not just the next “step” in logic. You are talking about a seamless control over the WORLDS population by a SINGLE organization over every continents (how before technology?) and across dozens of MILLENIA to become what could be described as, for a lack of better words, omnipotent, omnipresent, and omnicious. Does that sound humanly possible to you? Because to me, for something like this to have been able to be pulled off (and pulled off so perfectly that it has been invisible), it would take “unhuman” qualities.

But let me guess, that where the aliens come in?

I see your point, im just pointing out, if government corruption is legit, and basicaly generaly accepted, then why is somehting more powerful than government totaly asinine? yes, i agree it's a big step in logic. doesnt mean its not possible. what are the chances of the universe being created from an explosion. not good. i think life is deeper than your willing to accept.
i fully admit the illuminat might be bullshit. doesnt mean im not open to it.
youre underestimating human potential thinking people couldnt accomplish what the illuminat has done. billions and billions of dollars, and lots and lots of time can accomplish anything. it hasnt been invisible, its only been invisible to you.

Yeah, the government is in control. In essence, we hire the government to control us. We elect who we want in charge. That’s shouldn’t shock and disturb you…its not a secret at all. And quite frankly, if the government thinks it needs to do something, protesting isn’t going to stop that. And the unfortunate reality is that sometimes you have to do questionable things to keep things running. People don’t seem to be able to handle that truth too well, and if it were up to “the people”, I don’t think they would have what it takes to make the hard decisions. That’s just a harsh dose of reality right there. I want perfection, we all want perfection. No one should have to get hurt, no one should have to suffer, everyone should be able to get along and function flawlessly together with love and peace. But that’s incompatible with human nature. That was never in the cards for us.

well, theres some shit wrong here. we don't hire the governement to control us, we hire them to act in our will. thats not happening by a long fucking shot. and ill say agin, we didnt elect Bush.
protesting should stop that. we elect our government to do what WE see fit. if WE gather in the millions and say WE dont want this to be done, your goddamn skippy it should be talked about. youre a fucking moron if you think the goernment acts in your best interest. they dont. they have other interests. It tires me out, and sickens me to hear people constantly saying shit liek" sometimes we have to do tough things" when talking about war. no, we dont have to kill millions of people. what is the tough issue were facing that lead to Iraq? what was this huge threat everyonr refers to? there want one. the reality of the situation is, were sending kids to kill kids for no fucking reason. thats something you need to accept. right, the people dont have what it takes to make a hard decision, but people who wont even be affected by it do? no. they certainly make a decision, doesnt mean its the right one, the fair or just one, or the one the majority of the people want.
how do we know love and peace isn't possible? maybe if we ever gave it a chance we might see that its very possible. but no, weve never tried it.

That’s because we don’t actually live in a true democracy. Do you know how the electoral college works? It tries to help balance the control of the “popular vote”. If we lived in a true democracy, states like Texas, New York, and California would basically have full control over the country because they have far more votes than any other state. Unless the other 50 states came together as a collective (which, lets face it, wouldn’t happens because we can’t agree on things), the rest of the country would be at the whim of a few select states. And the founding fathers new this, which is why they came up with the electoral college. Each state gets a certain number of representatives (proportional to their population), and those representatives relay what the people think. In so doing, the power is much more evenly distributed across the states.

It’s not all about sheer numbers, its about winning the most electoral college votes…which means targeting specific states as opposed to the overall population. The fact is that people voted for Bush….lots of people, two different times over the span of 4 years. And this is what I mean by taking responsibility for our actions. We deliberately put him in power, yeah it sucks that he wasn’t a good president, but its not like he forced his way in.

yes, I know how the electoral college works.
how would the country be in the control of the states with the most people?that doesnt make sense. everyone votes, every vote is counted, the person with the most votes wins. doesnt matter how many people are in X state, if everyones vote counts as 1 vote.
dude, seriously, we didnt put bush in power. i urge you to look into the shit that went wrong in the last election. look at florida, and ohio. two key states were people were turned away from voting by the thousands, for sharing the same name as a registered felon, among other reasons. we didnt elect bush. rich people elected him for us.

I don’t think he is as stupid as you would like to believe, I just think he is a terrible public speaker. He did graduate from Yale. And no, its not just Bush making these decisions, it’s also his administration. And yes, money is involved, its called lobbying. Again, none of this is new or secret, nor is it grounds for invoking the existence of the illuminati. For someone who seems to be looking for answers, you don’t seem to be considering the basic structure of our government. To me, it’s seems like need to balance your research a bit more. Perhaps then things wouldn’t seem so lop-sided…

Sometimes I wonder if believing in the illuminati is how people channel there angst for all of the suffering in the world. They demonize it, they personify it, and then they have a target/an outlet for these feelings now that they have something specific to blame.

Just a thought.

give me the amount of money Bush has, and I'll graduate from Yale too.
$$$$$ makes anything possible. he has a lot fo it. diplomas from prestigious colleges can be bought. elections can be bought.
why is anyone who entertains the thought of the illuminati looking for someone to blame? even if the illuminat is real, were still to blame.
would I be out of line by saying you're hiding from reality to keep the stat quo of how you see the world intact? the ideas to large for you to grasp so its bullshit? back to sleep.


i'm done here though. neither of us are stupid, and i get the feeling we both see the fun in a good argument. sometimes a good argument begins to require too much time and energy though.

easy man...

whatev.

One last thought though. If you just assume that anyone who doesn't agree with this theory is ignorant, "alseep", or a sheelple, your the one who is niave.

haha, I was drunk typing that last night. was a little harsh. meant no offense man.
nah i don't think your a "sheep" or any of that. your obviously a smart dude.
people just get heated with stuff like this because if it is true, people not acknowledging it is a problem. doesnt give them the right to be an asshole though. you're cool with me hombre.

easy...

Originally Posted by awoke

haha, I was drunk typing that last night. was a little harsh. meant no offense man.

Ah, yeah ive done that Its all good dude, the reality of the situation is that I haven't come to a conclusion either way yet. Its weird, when i'm in a discussion where people are mainly dismissing the possibility of such theories, I tend argue in favor of them being a possibility. But when i'm in a discussion where people are mainly advocating the validity of such theories, I tend to argue against them. Thats just me trying to balance the perspectives, I suppose.