Thread: The irrationality of Palestinian suicide bombings

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Yes, and that was outrageously screwed up. I have believed that ever since I first learned about it.

ya but i had to repeat that part yet again to explain to you that it goes both ways about the land issue

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I know, and that has a lot to do with why I think it is disgusting. I only believe in a democracy of equality for the region and the rest of the world. I don't think anything else would be legitimate. A government not run by the people has no right to exist, and no government has a right to give preferential treatment to any race or religion. If the Muslims and Jews would come together and agree on that, their war would end.

Again there goes that pluralist yankee democracy(no offense its actually a good thing but its not possible).

Both sides hate eachother more then life itself reconcilation is not possible at all. Im sure you've seen the propaganda that Hamas is feeding Palestinian childrena bout jews but the same is true to a lesser extent about Israelis. (from a poll it showed that )Israelis beleive Arabs are stupider then jews, you know the same way White people in america used to beleive that "negroes" are enheritely intellectually inferior to white people and that was just one of the excuses not to give them the vote but enough of that.

Also an israeli jew told me (Who for some reason hates his own country and is on the arab side, i never understood that) that in Israel at a football(soccer) match all the israelies erupted up into a chorus. What were they chanting? DEATH TO ARABS DEATH TO ARABS DEATH TO ARABS!!! the israeli prime minister was there and warmly acknoldged the crowd warmly.

Israel/Palestine is were the United states was 50 yars ago in terms of race relations except MUCH worse because it has to do with land/relegion and nationality.

Ok im going to try and adress the Iran thread now...

I have no sympathy for any Arab or Jew who participates in that kind of closed-minded hate toward an entire ethnicity. I only support what I talked about. If it is never going to be possible, that very much sucks, but I will never take a side that says one ethnicity should own a country and the other ethnicity should be kicked out. I will also never support killing somebody because of his or her ethnicity.

The Palestinian/Israeli conflict is alot like harry potter.

If you read the books you will know what this means.

"Neither can live while the other Survives"

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

The Palestinian/Israeli conflict is alot like harry potter.

If you read the books you will know what this means.

"Neither can live while the other Survives"

They aren't making religion look too good. Every time an atheist talks about how screwed up religion is, the first thing they/we jump for is the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jEOkxRLzBf0

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

They aren't making religion look too good. Every time an atheist talks about how screwed up religion is, the first thing they/we jump for is the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jEOkxRLzBf0

haha for a secound in that video it looked like those two people who were walking was a Hasidic Jew and a palestinian women.

Relegion is not to blame it is the people who follow the relegion. Relegion is just a means to sepeare oneself from onother group of people to exagerate differences between groups.


There are muslim countries like Tunisia, Kosovo, Mooroco and some fomer soviet states that are muslim that are quite peaceful and dont have any relegious strife.

And there are some hateful racist christian countries like Serbia were they are probably praying to the virign mary for strenght to go and kill some muslims.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I have no sympathy for any Arab or Jew who participates in that kind of closed-minded hate toward an entire ethnicity. I only support what I talked about. If it is never going to be possible, that very much sucks, but I will never take a side that says one ethnicity should own a country and the other ethnicity should be kicked out. I will also never support killing somebody because of his or her ethnicity.

Of course you have no sympathy...why would you? You don't have a clue what these people are going through. Be glad that you're ignorant in that regard.


dragonoverlord, I completely agree about the European Jews. And I can't even express my disgust that they are PAID to move to the West Bank.

http://www.jr.co.il/pictures/israel/...y/a030710b.txt

Tali Berman was born in America, but surrounded
by her baby and belongings at Kennedy Airport, she said she was
flying home -- to Israel..."We're Jewish, and it feels like home,"

Not YOUR home...GTFO...You're only doing it for the money.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

Fuck them is what i say let the Palestinians reclaim their land, there is a nice frosty peace place in siberia called the jewish autonmous zone.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

I told you in my PM that making a jewish state on Arab land is effectively tresspasing of the highest order. They have no right to have a country on Arab Land, I'm all for whatever it takes to get rid of these trespassers.

I believe that a country can fight for its right to exist, if you can claim a land, and defend it, it's yours. Israel has been on the defense since its inception and flat out won multiple wars where it was significantly outnumbered. It's not like they're trying to expand or conquer the whole region anyways.

And Nina, you realize that the land Israel "stole" from the Arabs was "stolen" from the Romans/Byzantines which in turn was "stolen" from the Jews?

How about the US, should it be allowed to exist? Its land was stolen from the Native Americans after all...

Originally Posted by Spartiate

.

And Nina, you realize that the land Israel "stole" from the Arabs was "stolen" from the Romans/Byzantines which in turn was "stolen" from the Jews?

I was going to put this myself. People seem to really forget that the golden dome in Jerusalem was once the spot of King Solomon's temple according to Jewish tradition, which was in fact the most holy sight to Jewish people. Nobody seems to care about that...I smell double standard...

I really want to know why people think blind hatred is OK? If people truly want peace, it will never come until we look at individuals instead of groups.

Originally Posted by Aquanina

Of course you have no sympathy...why would you? You don't have a clue what these people are going through. Be glad that you're ignorant in that regard.

I think I've shown that I do get what is happening. I have also illustrated the irrationality of the prejudice that exists there. You are welcome to counter my arguments if you have something to add.

Government and religion don't mix. I might even venture to say that people and religion don't mix. The Palestinian-Israeli conflict is a game of, "God gave us this land! No, God gave US this land!" It is really stupid. If God exists, does he really want his children fighting over their presents? It is a profoundly absurd situation.

Democracy where all religions are equal is the only legitimate form of government.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

I believe that a country can fight for its right to exist, if you can claim a land, and defend it, it's yours. Israel has been on the defense since its inception and flat out won multiple wars where it was significantly outnumbered. It's not like they're trying to expand or conquer the whole region anyways.

And Nina, you realize that the land Israel "stole" from the Arabs was "stolen" from the Romans/Byzantines which in turn was "stolen" from the Jews?

How about the US, should it be allowed to exist? Its land was stolen from the Native Americans after all...

You realise That jews haven't been a Majoirty in the region For like 2000 years?

you realise there has been an arab majority since the 6th century while the jews Lived scattered mostly in Europe? Do you realise That the european Jews that settled In Palestine were just that EUROPEANS? they wre not Middle easteners they were Europeans.

just because over 2000 years ago jews were a majority gives ownership Of Palestine to the european Jews?

Lets say i go back in time To my Ancestors the Berbers who are the natives of North Africa.

hypothetically lets say they lived in Nigeria and were expelled from their by a the Zulu Empire and went To modern day mooroco and lived there fOr 2000 years to present. Does that make Nigeria my country?

The same can be applied to the jews except in the case i site Nigeria is geographically close To mooroco While the midle east is somewhat distant fRom were the jewish immigrants came from.

like i say the European jews had no claim to the land. Saying jews lived there 2000 years ago is not a valid claim and for all intensive Purpouses surronding the Palestinian/israeli conflict irrevelant.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

How about the US, should it be allowed to exist? Its land was stolen from the Native Americans after all...

I am part Native American. Maybe my left arm should be allowed to live in the U.S. while the rest of my body should have to live in Scottland? But what about the percentage of me that is "legitimately" Irish? Maybe my right leg can live in Ireland.

When you punish people for their ethnicity, things start getting very absurd. Until most people realize that we are all individuals, a whole lot of isms are going to be really screwing up this world.

Originally Posted by Spartiate;721626 if

How about the US, should it be allowed to exist? Its land was stolen from the Native Americans after all... If

Umm excuse me but the Situation regarding America is quite Different if not uncomparable to the Palestinian situation.

the if only similarity i see is The people of the Land (Palestinians) losing their land to colonial scum. That is where the similarities end.

The native Americans of the united states are extremely mixed racially. Alot of native Americans in the USA have white and even Black blood. They are culturally intergrated more or Less with the USA they Are for the most part christians who speak English.

In Israel/Palestine they are Relegiously seperate.

Jews & Muslims. Hebrew Speakers and Arabic Speakers

In the United States the Overwhelming majority of Native Americans Identify with the United States in Israel The Palestinians Identify with palstine and the Jews with Israel.

In Israel there Was an arab Majority 60 years ago. When was the last time there was a native american Majority?

Powned

Originally Posted by Aquanina

dragonoverlord, I completely agree about the European Jews. And I can't even express my disgust that they are PAID to move to the West Bank.

http://www.jr.co.il/pictures/israel/history/a030710b.txt

Its amazing they do this in plain site yet no one seems to call tehm on it even though its breaking international laW.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

In Israel there Was an arab Majority 60 years ago. When was the last time there was a native american Majority?

Powned

A few hundred years ago. So what? Kicking people out of a country based on ethnicity is an outrageously ridiculous clusterfuck. That is the point. Should we get to the bottom of the history of red headed people in Ireland and consider kicking them out? What about short people in Uraguay? What's their story?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

A few hundred years ago. So what? Kicking people out of a country based on ethnicity is an outrageously ridiculous clusterfuck. That is the point. Should we get to the bottom of the history of red headed people in Ireland and consider kicking them out? What about short people in Uraguay? What's their story?

Its only my opinion how things should be handled. Anyway you slice it im not to concerend, the jewish majority in Israel is only temporary.

Remember by the end of the decade Israel will be a muslim Arab country once more.

I believe my statement went completely unheeded. From your talk, it is now ok for the palestinians to kick the jews out because they were there first, yet when the jews way back when were there first, they had to remain in exile when they were taken out. Ill say it again from my last post. Double standard

Some of you people really need to do yourselves a favor and read the history behind the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

I still think we're blaming the wrong people here.

Originally Posted by Aquanina

Some of you people really need to do yourselves a favor and read the history behind the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

I still think we're blaming the wrong people here.

I wish you would leave a post that is more specific. You could start by explaining why you hate ALL Israelis, even the children and babies.

What do you think about a democracy where all religions are treated equally? Imagine the United States being a "Christian state" because it was settled by Christians or a Native American "Zundar, God of Rain, state". Both ideas are bullshit, aren't they? Imagine all of the Americans of Dutch ancestry or of the Catholic denomination having to leave the U.S. now. Imagine people condoning the targetting of Methodists because of some historic struggle between Methodists and Baptists. I have only expressed the surface of how absurd I think shit like that is. Why do you think it makes sense? Try not to answer with some vague remark about ignorance. Try educating me on the logic of this insanity.

In all wars there have been incidents where civilians have been attacked. More prevalent after world war I. The Germans bombing us, us bombing Germany, Hiroshima & Nagasaki.
After WWII has the civilized nations and their commanders targeted civilians purposely?
Is the United states targeting civilians in Iraq?

The rational behind a suicide bomber is what?
Just this question. Take into account the word rational. Use it into context with that of a suicide bomber and please give me an answer.
I don't give two shits if you think the United states is rational, the tootsie tribe in Africa or the NRA for that matter.

Dragonoverlord, I was trying to point out that it's ridiculous to attach an ethnicity to a land, the land belongs to whoever can keep it.

Or else, why would an Arab majority (around Israel, to top it off, not in Israel) overule the fact that Jews were there first? Before Europeens colonized the Americas, Native Americans held a majority. They don't anymore because they were exterminated and conquered. So now the United States "belongs" to the descendents of the colonialists because there are more of them? Have you seen how many Asians there are in Vancouver? Does it belong to the Chinese?

And lastly, I think it takes a socially backwards place like the Middle-East to not want to cooperate with Israel on the grounds of religion and ethnicity. They have the most minute spot of land, and it's not like it's illegal for Arabs to live there. They're the most advanced nation in the region and neighboring countries could benefit greatly from interaction with them. The worst part is that Israel has both the capability and the opportunity to wipe its neighbors off the map and expand, yet all they care about is there little piece of land. It's not like they'll get aggresive if they're left alone.

And don't say it's impossible for Israel to coexist with its neighbors on the grounds of religion and language. The 750 000 people who live across the river from me have a different language and religion than the 250 000 that live on this side, and we don't try to ethnically cleanse each other.

Originally Posted by tkdyo

I believe my statement went completely unheeded. From your talk, it is now ok for the palestinians to kick the jews out because they were there first, yet when the jews way back when were there first, they had to remain in exile when they were taken out. Ill say it again from my last post. Double standard

First of all being jewish is not a race, the people who got kicked out of Palestine 2000 + years ago are not the same people who came to Palestine from Eastern Europe in 1882.

Secound. The incident in which you site happend 2000 fucken years ago. Seriously, If we organized the world by what happend 2000 years ago then the Turkys would have to go back to their ancient ancestral grazing lands the British would have to go back to England and oh ya the Scottish remember them? they are ogirinally from Ireland lets send all the scottish back to Ireland while were at it. What happend 2000 years ago is of no consequence to what is happening today and is for all intenceive purpouses its irrevelant.

But the examples i site, like the one with turks can't be applied to jews because the jews unlike the turks are not a race they are a relegion so the homeland of most european jews is Russia, Poland or wherever they might come from because jews from a myriad of places just like christians because christians have no set country they are a relegion. A christain can come from China, South Africa or even Antartica for all i car.

And dont tell me the Jews are a race, that was a myth propaged by the Nazies so they could justify further persecution of the jews.

Let me use an example to help you understand. We have a group of people who have a long history in Europe. They are the Roma people, you know them by their vernacular name The Gypsies.

The Gypsies have their origins in Northern India beleive it or not but more then a thouand years ago they made a Trek across mountains and deserts to eventually come to Europe. Historians theorize they were slaves.

Eventually they settled around the Mediterean Basin in Egypt, Algeria and the mediterean countries of Europe not ot mention countries like Romania and Bulgaria. They adpoted the local relegion of the countries but stayed sepearte and kept their language and culture.

Now tell me to do the gypsie peole have the right to go all the way from Europe to Rajistan in India to kick out the 50 million or so people there because 1000+ years ago there ancestors lived there?

The situation with the Palestinians and the jews is much more recent and therefore fixable.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Dragonoverlord, I was trying to point out that it's ridiculous to attach an ethnicity to a land, the land belongs to whoever can keep it.

Or else, why would an Arab majority (around Israel, to top it off, not in Israel) overule the fact that Jews were there first? Before Europeens colonized the Americas, Native Americans held a majority. They don't anymore because they were exterminated and conquered. So now the United States "belongs" to the descendents of the colonialists because there are more of them? Have you seen how many Asians there are in Vancouver? Does it belong to the Chinese?

And lastly, I think it takes a socially backwards place like the Middle-East to not want to cooperate with Israel on the grounds of religion and ethnicity. They have the most minute spot of land, and it's not like it's illegal for Arabs to live there. They're the most advanced nation in the region and neighboring countries could benefit greatly from interaction with them. The worst part is that Israel has both the capability and the opportunity to wipe its neighbors off the map and expand, yet all they care about is there little piece of land. It's not like they'll get aggresive if they're left alone.

And don't say it's impossible for Israel to coexist with its neighbors on the grounds of religion and language. The 750 000 people who live across the river from me have a different language and religion than the 250 000 that live on this side, and we don't try to ethnically cleanse each other.

There were jews in the region as a majority 2000 + years ago but they abandoned the area, in my other post on this page i explained how the fact jews lived in the region 2000 + years ago does not extend ownership of the land to the present day.

I also explained on the other page how the situation with the native americans in North America and the one with the Palestinians is only comparable to the extent that colonial scum from Europe settled there land. Read my post if you need to.

Canada is a pluralist society and is not ethnocentric in nature. I explaiend several time that the whole situation in the area is ethnocentric. The UN Started it if i can play the blame game.......They gave European jews who had been in the middle east for LESS then a generation a swath of land with 700 000 arabs on it to make a JEWISH state. Does that not strike you as rascist?

The way Israel was created was extremely 1 sided agains the majority arabs who lived on what was to be a jewish state. This injustice is the root problem, giving land to european immigrants when there is already people living on it.

As far as im concerned Israel is the last vestige of colonialsm on this planet and had better be wiped out.

Remember who attached ethnicity to the land in the first place IT WAS THE JEWS IT WAS THE UN IT WAS THE UNITED KINGDOM

THE WEST STARTED THIS, THE PALESTINIANS WILL FINISH IT!

Originally Posted by Howie

In all wars there have been incidents where civilians have been attacked. More prevalent after world war I. The Germans bombing us, us bombing Germany, Hiroshima & Nagasaki.
After WWII has the civilized nations and their commanders targeted civilians purposely?
Is the United states targeting civilians in Iraq?

The rational behind a suicide bomber is what?
Just this question. Take into account the word rational. Use it into context with that of a suicide bomber and please give me an answer.
I don't give two shits if you think the United states is rational, the tootsie tribe in Africa or the NRA for that matter.

The rational behind a suicide bomber is that if you have a guy with an Ak 47 who is being occupied by a guy with a humvee and body armour and with a better weapon plus a turet on the humvee lets say and lets say he can call in airstrikes to.

The rational is that is not a fair fight, and that the playing field needs to be evend up to compensate for the huge advantage the guy in the Humvee has over the guy being occupied.

So it is not a fair fight. Thank you for that answer.

That is more than an adequate reason to strap a bomb to yourself, kill yourself and target mosques, hospitals etc. So that is their motive behind this madness. The training of these fighters from a young age is a mindset of it is not fair. Simple enough.

Where do you draw the line then? The Arabs were the invaders once, they took over the lands of people that had been there for generations. Now the Arabs have made themselves at home and lay claim to the land.

Israel has existed for about 60 years, or two generations. How long must Israel exist before the land is "rightfully" theirs? Five generations? Ten generations? Fifty generations? If Israel exists for another thousand years, will the land still "belong" to Arabs?

Face it, ethnicity does not grant you sole posession of a territory.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I wish you would leave a post that is more specific. You could start by explaining why you hate ALL Israelis, even the children and babies.

I don't hate all Israelis. My comment about blaming the wrong people did not mean we should be blaming the Israelis. The ones who are native to the land, and not the european and american jewish settlers that dragonoverlord mentions, have every right to be there just as much as the palestinians. The PROBLEM, and the people we SHOULD be blaming is summed up by this statement...

The UN Started it if i can play the blame game.......They gave European jews who had been in the middle east for LESS then a generation a swath of land with 700 000 arabs on it to make a JEWISH state. Does that not strike you as rascist?

The way Israel was created was extremely 1 sided agains the majority arabs who lived on what was to be a jewish state. This injustice is the root problem, giving land to european immigrants when there is already people living on it.

And let's not forget about Christian Zionism, one of the largest reasons we support Israel, give them so much money, and pay jews to move to the occupied West Bank and Gaza. Because we all know that the second coming of christ won't happen until the jews return to the promised land, right!? So let's just kick out the people who had been living there, LITERALLY throw arabs out of their homes for these new jewish settlers who have no right to be there.

Bottom line...It's not right. They have no business there.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

As far as im concerned Israel is the last vestige of colonialsm on this planet and had better be wiped out.

Remember who attached ethnicity to the land in the first place IT WAS THE JEWS IT WAS THE UN IT WAS THE UNITED KINGDOM

THE WEST STARTED THIS, THE PALESTINIANS WILL FINISH IT!

The rational behind a suicide bomber is that if you have a guy with an Ak 47 who is being occupied by a guy with a humvee and body armour and with a better weapon plus a turet on the humvee lets say and lets say he can call in airstrikes to.

The rational is that is not a fair fight, and that the playing field needs to be evend up to compensate for the huge advantage the guy in the Humvee has over the guy being occupied.

The playing field is FAR from even. But considering that the Palestinians are not only fighting Israel but THE UNITED STATES as well, I support them doing whatever they can to fight. The US is the biggest bully on the planet, and Israel is their little bitch. If your HOMELAND, your country, was being invaded by a super power, your people slaughtered on a daily basis, and you know what you're up against...soon enough, dying for your country starts to look pretty good. You can either fight, or roll over and let your land and everything you care for be taken away from you. They are fighting.

You people would rather the palestinians just said..."ok, sure...have our country even though we've lived here for thousands of years...we'll just go somewhere else..." Get real.

Maybe if Israelis stayed in Israel and stopped attempting to build walls and occupying what's left of "palestine" the west bank and gaza, it wouldn't be AS bad. But no, that isn't enough for them...they want it ALL.

Originally Posted by Aquanina

Maybe if Israelis stayed in Israel and stopped attempting to build walls and occupying what's left of "palestine" the west bank and gaza, it wouldn't be AS bad. But no, that isn't enough for them...they want it ALL.

You know, in two wars, Israel tripled its size by occupying its neighbors. In the aftermath of both wars, Israel gave the lands back.

They're clearly not after expansion.