Thread: Voting McCain?

Originally Posted by Alextanium

I think 100,000+ dead iraqi civilians might take issue with your post. That says nothing of the hundreds of thousands who are injured or displaced due to the violence.

Yep.
We have killed every last single one of them. And of course before we came there there was all happiness and unicorns and butterflies.

Do you really think we are killing them on purpose? What little die at our hands?
Do you really think we didn't accidentally kill some civilians in WWII and WWI?

You people seem a bit idealistic in your expectations.

Originally Posted by Dreamworld

First off Obama is winning the election, and has more voters than McCain.

I don't think everybody is being honest in the current Reuters poll. A lot of people out there get something out of commitment to liberal ideals and viewing themselves as liberals but will not vote for Obama (like I said earlier) when it comes down to it. Just watch.

Originally Posted by Dreamworld

Second, McCains economic, and foreign policy SUCK. McCain is an imitation of Bush, and is a neo-con. He is old, and why is it better to be in a prison camp for 5 years? What about the people who didn't get their asses in a prison?

I didn't say anything about the prison camp. However, I will now say that he stayed an extra five years willingly because he did not want to leave his friends behind and not be able to help them get through the terrible period. That shows a great deal of conscience and character, which both Clinton and Obama seriously lack.

I also said I think the Republicans have more up their sleeves on Obama.

Originally Posted by Dreamworld

Remember: Recap in November.

Don't forget.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

I would just like to state that Reverend Wright is not "anti-America." He is "anti-current-American-Administration-who-are-controlling-her(America's)-policies."

He addressed a lot more than recent policies. He dug up the Japan bombings and other things that are from far back and then used those as the reasons for 9/11, saying, "America's chickens are coming home to roost," a quote of Malcolm X's point that Kennedy got shot for the same reason. It is a point that suggests not the logical and direct consequences of policy, but of some superstitious weirdness that is a lot like Kharma. He did not condemn the 9/11 terrorists. He said they did what they did because of some crazy thing the U.S. government did to the spiritual superstition realm or something. He was basically saying the U.S. is an evil country and got what it asked for by doing very unrelated things.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

IHe used the phrase "God Damn America" because it was a catchy contrast to "God Bless America," illustrating the point that killing innocent people (as the American Administration is doing, in this war) is an damnable offense, under religious doctrine.

Like I said, he brought up things that the U.S. government did long ago, from long before you and I were even born. "God damn America" is catchy because it is in contrast to "God bless America", but it does mean that America is evil and deserves bad things and can go screw itself.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Sure he's extremist, in his opinions, but part of Obama's "problem" with him is that people are viewing him as something he's not proven to be.

I want a president who would never dream of going to a church that preaches such hateful and crazy stuff against the country. If Obama were a rock star or something, I might not think much of it, but he is running for president of the United States, of all things. I want somebody who condemns hatred for the country and who wants to do good things for the country, not somebody who gives even the slightest bit of credence to the idea that we are an evil nation that deserves bad things. It is out of the question. I am far from alone on that.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

"Anti-American" means "against America".

Finding that Obama is admittedly friends with an admitted terrorist and gave speeches with him and finding that Obama went to an anti-American extremist church for twenty years is not a matter of stretching fingers. You should ask yourself why those facts don't concern you.

First of all, the church that Obama attended is not "Anti-American", nor is Jeremiah Wright anti-American...unless you consider his service in the Marine Corps (as well as his tending to President Lyndon B. Johnson as a medic) to be "anti-American".

If anyone has earned the right to criticize the government, it is those who have served in uniform.

The biggest problem in our society right now is that people have been brainwashed to believe that criticizing the government equals being anti-American. If anything, swearing allegiance to elected leaders without question is anti-American. If America was meant to be that way we would have remained as English colonies instead of striking out as an independent nation.

Originally Posted by Sagea

How is Obama battle tested?

He absolutley cannot be the commander in chief of the armed forces. He would cripple them.

Right, because we all know that the billions spent on the war are going primarily to our troops on the ground, and not into the coffers of defense contractors.

Originally Posted by Captain Sleepalot

First of all, the church that Obama attended is not "Anti-American", nor is Jeremiah Wright anti-American...unless you consider his service in the Marine Corps (as well as his tending to President Lyndon B. Johnson as a medic) to be "anti-American".

If anyone has earned the right to criticize the government, it is those who have served in uniform.

Of course he has a right to be anti-American, but that is what he is. The fact that he was in the military does not make my claim untrue. Timothy McVeigh was in the military. What is your point?

Originally Posted by Captain Sleepalot

The biggest problem in our society right now is that people have been brainwashed to believe that criticizing the government equals being anti-American. If anything, swearing allegiance to elected leaders without question is anti-American. If America was meant to be that way we would have remained as English colonies instead of striking out as an independent nation.

Pretty much everybody criticizes the government, including me. That alone does not make a person anti-American. Wright, however, is anti-American.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Pretty much everybody criticizes the government, including me. That alone does not make a person anti-American. Wright, however, is anti-American.

What is it, exactly, that makes someone Anti-American, vs. Critical of "America (meaning its flaws, whether its government or its cultural aspects)"?

Where is that arbitrary line? If I imply that I "fucking hate" America's policies, as set forth by government, does it mean I hate my country? If I condemn foreign policy, and make a case for 9/11 being a byproduct of that foreign policy, and have countless things about how "what goes around, comes around," when discussing the terrorist attacks, does that mean I hate my country? Or is "anti-American" just a semantic argument, like when Sean Hannity uses it, every time someone says something about the U.S. government?

If one can be damning of the American government's policies, and express awareness of atrocity that was brought on by those policies without being "Anti-American," what makes them fit the label of "Anti-American?"

The silly goat herders letting the wolves in sheeps' clothing into the herd will be our undoing.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

What is it, exactly, that makes someone Anti-American, vs. Critical of "America (meaning its flaws, whether its government or its cultural aspects)"?

Where is that arbitrary line? If I imply that I "fucking hate" America's policies, as set forth by government, does it mean I hate my country? If I condemn foreign policy, and make a case for 9/11 being a byproduct of that foreign policy, and have countless things about how "what goes around, comes around," when discussing the terrorist attacks, does that mean I hate my country? Or is "anti-American" just a semantic argument, like when Sean Hannity uses it, every time someone says something about the U.S. government?

If one can be damning of the American government's policies, and express awareness of atrocity that was brought on by those policies without being "Anti-American," what makes them fit the label of "Anti-American?"

The line is between hating certain policies and hating the country itself. When somebody says that using nukes to end WWII in 1945 creates some strange magic that makes the United States achieve a moral debt from the gods or whatever so that people working in the World Trade Center in 2001 had death coming to them and says, "God damn America!" (not ..."certain American policies"), he is anti-American. When I say that the war on drugs is fucking terrible and has got to go, I am merely expressing strong disagreement with a specific policy.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The line is between hating certain policies and hating the country itself. When somebody says that using nukes to end WWII in 1945 creates some strange magic that makes the United States achieve a moral debt from the gods or whatever so that people working in the World Trade Center in 2001 had death coming to them and says, "God damn America!" (not ..."certain American policies"), he is anti-American. When I say that the war on drugs is fucking terrible and has got to go, I am merely expressing strong disagreement with a specific policy.

I want to see your point as black and white as you do, but I just don't know. I just really hate when the words "Anti-American" are thrown around because of people's disdain for hating certain aspects of America. The quote (though I couldn't find anything more than an excerpt) was:

"The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing ‘God Bless America.’ No, no, no, God damn America, that’s in the Bible for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.”

Whether his statements make him as a whole, "anti-American," I don't know that I can really say. Barring religious ideas of "what goes around comes around," how else could one make the point of the things listed above being deplorable, with any sense of passion, without being labeled by some as anti-American? Is it even possible?

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

I want to see your point as black and white as you do, but I just don't know. I just really hate when the words "Anti-American" are thrown around because of people's disdain for hating certain aspects of America. The quote (though I couldn't find anything more than an excerpt) was:

"The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing ‘God Bless America.’ No, no, no, God damn America, that’s in the Bible for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.”

Whether his statements make him as a whole, "anti-American," I don't know that I can really say. Barring religious ideas of "what goes around comes around," how else could one make the point of the things listed above being deplorable, with any sense of passion, without being labeled by some as anti-American? Is it even possible?

He should have said, "God damn those laws and actions," or something like that, if he really believes all of that stuff he said. I could say that I disagree with certain points you make, and that alone would not mean that I hate you, but I would be getting hateful if I said, "God damn what you said," and it would be safe to say that I am all out anti-Oneironaut if I spoke with my true feelings and said, "God damn Oneironaut! God damn Oneironaut for as long as he continues to believe what he believes!" "God damn America" and "Down with the USA" are on the same sort of level. A damning from God is something very severe to wish on a nation.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

He should have said, "God damn those laws and actions," or something like that, if he really believes all of that stuff he said. I could say that I disagree with certain points you make, and that alone would not mean that I hate you, but I would be getting hateful if I said, "God damn what you said," and it would be safe to say that I am all out anti-Oneironaut if I spoke with my true feelings and said, "God damn Oneironaut! God damn Oneironaut for as long as he continues to believe what he believes!" "God damn America" and "Down with the USA" are on the same sort of level. A damning from God is something very severe to wish on a nation.

True enough. I can't really argue with that. Personally, I would say that I don't believe he hates the entirety of America, as his hyperbole would have suggested (in the same way that I could say "God Damn [my best friend] for royally screwing me over that one time" in the throws of anger, but not actually hate him) but - given the fact that Wright did say what he said, regardless of any implicit intention - I definitely see your point.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

True enough. I can't really argue with that. Personally, I would say that I don't believe he hates the entirety of America, as his hyperbole would have suggested (in the same way that I could say "God Damn [my best friend] for royally screwing me over that one time" in the throws of anger, but not actually hate him) but - given the fact that Wright did say what he said, regardless of any implicit intention - I definitely see your point.

Oh no, I am not used to people agreeing with me after I talk to them about politics. Thanks. :peace:

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Oh no, I am not used to people agreeing with me after I talk to them about politics. Thanks. :peace:

Hahaha. Well, maybe not complete agreement - but enough to see where you're coming from.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

He addressed a lot more than recent policies. He dug up the Japan bombings and other things that are from far back and then used those as the reasons for 9/11, saying, "America's chickens are coming home to roost," a quote of Malcolm X's point that Kennedy got shot for the same reason. It is a point that suggests not the logical and direct consequences of policy, but of some superstitious weirdness that is a lot like Kharma. He did not condemn the 9/11 terrorists. He said they did what they did because of some crazy thing the U.S. government did to the spiritual superstition realm or something. He was basically saying the U.S. is an evil country and got what it asked for by doing very unrelated things.

i think the point he was trying to make was that americas been fucking with alot of people and what goes around comes around or kharma as you put it.

UM. Heard about McCain's Nazi-like pastor?

His pastor said that the Holocaust is justified because it cleaned the world of jews. Also that it was by God's will. Its all over the news.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS...gee/index.html

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

i think the point he was trying to make was that americas been fucking with alot of people and what goes around comes around or kharma as you put it.

Yeah, he thinks like you. Just like you think two year olds in Israel have horror and death coming to them, Wright thinks the 9/11 victims had it coming to them. Americans generally consider the 9/11 victims innocent. Kharma is supposed to exist on an individual basis, but this kharma like thing that you and Wright believe in involves larger scale group guilt based on individual actions. I majorly disagree with both of you from a factual and a moral standpoint.

Originally Posted by Dreamworld

UM. Heard about McCain's Nazi-like pastor?

His pastor said that the Holocaust is justified because it cleaned the world of jews. Also that it was by God's will. Its all over the news.

As far as I know, that was not McCain's pastor. He was some guy who endorsed McCain. I think McCain reffered to him one time as "a" (not "my") "spiritual advisor". Did McCain go to his church for twenty years? Did he have first hand knowledge of the pastor's extremist ideology being preached in church? Was he very close friends with him? If that were the case, I am pretty sure MSNBC would have been running the story 24/7. Please clear this up for us.

The other problem with America is that people such as Universal Mind are much more motivated to vote by fear than reasoning or thinking about the actual issues that the candidates base their platforms on.

One has only to look at the associations that certain Presidents have had with extreme right wing evangelists who have said VERY SIMILAR things to what Jeremiah Wright said to know that this fear of the Wright-Obama association is hypocritical at best and just ignorant at worst.

I don't agree at all with Jeremiah Wright, by the way, or any other evangelical who claims that disasters and tragedies are God's way of punishing America.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Yeah, he thinks like you. Just like you think two year olds in Israel have horror and death coming to them, Wright thinks the 9/11 victims had it coming to them. Americans generally consider the 9/11 victims innocent. Kharma is supposed to exist on an individual basis, but this kharma like thing that you and Wright believe in involves larger scale group guilt based on individual actions. I majorly disagree with both of you from a factual and a moral standpoint.



As far as I know, that was not McCain's pastor. He was some guy who endorsed McCain. I think McCain reffered to him one time as "a" (not "my") "spiritual advisor". Did McCain go to his church for twenty years? Did he have first hand knowledge of the pastor's extremist ideology being preached in church? Was he very close friends with him? If that were the case, I am pretty sure MSNBC would have been running the story 24/7. Please clear this up for us.

Its what the people think.. Its all over CNN. Also his age and health condition aren't up to par.

Its not over for Obama.

Originally Posted by Captain Sleepalot

Right, because we all know that the billions spent on the war are going primarily to our troops on the ground, and not into the coffers of defense contractors.

Cause you know that for a fact. You have the defense spending all laid out in front of ya huh.

And you do know there's a reason we hire contractors right...?

Originally Posted by Captain Sleepalot

The other problem with America is that people such as Universal Mind are much more motivated to vote by fear than reasoning or thinking about the actual issues that the candidates base their platforms on.

One has only to look at the associations that certain Presidents have had with extreme right wing evangelists who have said VERY SIMILAR things to what Jeremiah Wright said to know that this fear of the Wright-Obama association is hypocritical at best and just ignorant at worst.

I don't agree at all with Jeremiah Wright, by the way, or any other evangelical who claims that disasters and tragedies are God's way of punishing America.

If I am so unreasonable, try countering my points. I am not talking about mere "association". I am talking about going to the nut's church for twenty years and being so close to him he is compared to being his close relative. Do you honestly not understand the difference? You... are being unreasonable.

Originally Posted by Dreamworld

Its what the people think.. Its all over CNN. Also his age and health condition aren't up to par.

Its not over for Obama.

So tell me... Is the guy really McCain's pastor, the guy he goes to for spiritual advice every Sunday? Was he preaching that stuff in church? Did McCain know that and still turn to him for spiritual direction every Sunday for twenty years? Does McCain consider the pastor to be like a close relative? Talk to me.

Obama has been to 57 U.S. states, and he only has 1 to go, but he has not been to Alaska or Hawaii.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpGH02DtIws

For those who don't know, there are 50 U.S. states, 48 on the mainland plus Alaska and Hawaii. It is very, very common knowledge here.

CNN reported this, and apparently Obama was showing signs of sleep deprivation when he made the mistake.

In unrelated news, though (to be fair ) it seems that Vladamir Putin is has recently been elected president of Germany.



This, from Mr. Foreign Policy.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

CNN reported this, and apparently Obama was showing signs of sleep deprivation when he made the mistake.

In unrelated news, though (to be fair ) it seems that Vladamir Putin is has recently been elected president of Germany.



This, from Mr. Foreign Policy.

I said in the other thread what must have happened. 47 states, 1 mainland state to go, never been to the 2 non-mainland states. Before I realized that, I was pretty concerned. He said it so slowly and with so much thought, but it does seem to come down to a simple slip of saying "fifty" when he meant to say "forty", and he was probably thinking so hard about how it all adds up that he lost concentration on that one syllable. But if he really thought we have 57 states, that would be a problem. I don't think McCain meant to say Putin is the leader of Germany either. That too would be a big problem.