Thread: McCain Passes Obama In Official Gallup Poll

Originally Posted by drewmandan

How so?
It doesn't say you can't have one, but it does say you can.

I'm not sure if you understand what a natural right is. Sure, having a gun isn't a right, but choosing to purchase one sure is.

I mean, what you're saying is, the Bill of Rights doesn't mention the right to purchase DVDs, ergo people don't have the right to purchase DVDs. But it doesn't work that way. People have the natural right to buy whatever they want so long as it doesn't interfere with the natural rights of others. In fact, if you look at any serious list of natural rights, you will see that they are compatible, and if you try to add a new one, like a natural "right to good health", it starts to conflict. But the right to buy guns doesn't conflict with other rights, like the right to self-determination (liberty) or property.

Now, you might be talking about legal rights, but I'm not. I don't give a shit about legal rights. They're arbitrary and far removed from reality.

No, it says neither. I posted exactly what is says in terms of grammar in the other thread. Why do you think the founding fathers would include one specific about ownership? Wouldn't they have much more pressing issues such as owning a home or something. Those aren't rights, what makes you think they just made a grammatical error and meant that everyone has the right to a gun? No, you do not have the right to have a DVD according to the constitution. It's not mentioned, just like guns. Rights are things that are guaranteed, not privileges. DVDs are a bad example because regulating them would violate the freedom of speech.

I look at guns like a drivers license, no it's not a right, but everyone should be allowed to get one as long as they are not a danger to others.

It doesn't matter what people believe. The gun sellers decide that. Some require background checks because they believe the benefits (being the legal right to advertise, essentially) outweigh the costs (losing customers), yet others, like street thugs and arms dealers, choose not to require background checks.

State and federal laws handle background checks (used to.) They were called the Brady laws and put in place by Ronald Reagan.

Now, do you want to get into a discussion of the moral right to own a gun?

No, I already posted what I believe about gun ownership. People who want one for hunting or self defense can have them as long as they pass a background check. No one needs a military grade weapons except for the military and police force.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

We turned Iraq into an Al Qaeda magnet, and we eat them for lunch every day. Al Qaeda is much weaker now, and very distracted by what we set up.

No, they're doing pretty well right now. They're smart enough to stay out of Iraq except for grunts that they send in for suicide bombing. the high ranking people are in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

THE liberal areas, or like two that you mentioned? How is the Soviet Union coming along? What about Cuba?

Cuba and the Soviet Union were communists and totalitarians , I fail to see the comparison. Progressive isn't socialism, why don't you understand that?

The entire northeast is near the top of that list. The entire south is near the bottom. To me that clearly shows the difference in economic systems' outcomes. The conservative controlled south is very poor because of unregulated capitalism. The progressive controlled northeast and west coast are very wealthy because of regulated capitalism.

Obama has lied his ass off about his associations... his very strong associations with very terrible anti-Americans.

I don't recall him ever lying about being friends with William Ayers or anyone else. He said that he didn't agree with some of the things they they say or do, but support their charities and humanitarian work.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

No, it says neither. I posted exactly what is says in terms of grammar in the other thread. Why do you think the founding fathers would include one specific about ownership? Wouldn't they have much more pressing issues such as owning a home or something. Those aren't rights, what makes you think they just made a grammatical error and meant that everyone has the right to a gun? No, you do not have the right to have a DVD according to the constitution. It's not mentioned, just like guns. Rights are things that are guaranteed, not privileges. DVDs are a bad example because regulating them would violate the freedom of speech.

I look at guns like a drivers license, no it's not a right, but everyone should be allowed to get one as long as they are not a danger to others.

I chose my words very carefully. I never said that people have the natural right to owning a gun. I said they have the natural right to choose to purchase a gun. Big fucking difference. One makes sense, the other doesn't. Get your shit straight before you try to argue with me.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

State and federal laws handle background checks (used to.) They were called the Brady laws and put in place by Ronald Reagan.

Black market, put in place by people who don't observe arbitrary laws. I don't see how this counters what I've already said.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

No, I already posted what I believe about gun ownership. People who want one for hunting or self defense can have them as long as they pass a background check. No one needs a military grade weapons except for the military and police force.

I'm not talking about what people need. Nobody 'needs' a gold-plated toilet, yet some people have one. I'm talking about the right to purchase an inanimate object, not the right to have one, not what you do with it, just the right to purchase and own one if one so chooses.

You can also purchase a drivers license, but for safety reasons some are refused. same thing with guns.

The black market doesn't abide by the laws of the government, you can also get a fake drivers license through the black market. Illegally obtaining anything doesn't abide by american laws and therefore have no relevance in a discussion about the law.

I'm still not entirely sure of your point. I agree that the right to buy a gun is a natural right, it's a privilege that is not expressly given in the constitution, but of course is able to be regulated for safety reasons. So you agree that the extremist's view that the 2nd amendment guarantees them the right to have a gun is wrong?

Originally Posted by ninja9578

I'm still not entirely sure of your point. I agree that the right to buy a gun is a natural right, it's a privilege that is not expressly given in the constitution, but of course is able to be regulated for safety reasons. So you agree that the extremist's view that the 2nd amendment guarantees them the right to have a gun is wrong?

Stated with the EXACT wording you've used in this sentence, I agree it's wrong, because it makes no sense.

The reason I brought up natural rights in the first place is to discuss the spirit of the 2nd Amendment. Considering the whole point was to protect natural rights, it makes no sense to write a 2nd Amendment with the intention of stripping a natural right. Therefore I also believe the law, as irrelevant as it is, does guarantee the right to purchase firearms as often as one chooses.

It also makes no sense to write a law solidifying a natural right when there were much more important ones such as the right to buy a home or land.

The 2nd amendment doesn't strip the natural right to buy a weapon, it doesn't mention it. That's why is specifies that the amendment is meant in terms of a state militia.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

It also makes no sense to write a law solidifying a natural right when there were much more important ones such as the right to buy a home or land.

The 2nd amendment doesn't strip the natural right to buy a weapon, it doesn't mention it. That's why is specifies that the amendment is meant in terms of a state militia.

That's fine, as long as we agree then that everyone has not only the moral right, but also the legal right to buy guns in the US.

I only agree if you also agree that some people aren't allowed to buy them, those who would be dangerous such as convicted felons and the mentally unstable.

You know what this sounds like?

"Your question to him was whether he supported gay marriage and my answer is the same as his which is I do not."

-Sarah Palin

Sarah Palin makes George Bush look smart.

Mcainss policies are the same as George Bush's, and if you don't realize that, you have graduated to "idiot".

Obamas tax cut for the rich is nothing to complain about, he is returning the favor since Bush did it to the middle class/poor.

f*** Mcain, f*** Pailin, f*** Bush, and f*** you if you voted for any of them. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

No, they're doing pretty well right now. They're smart enough to stay out of Iraq except for grunts that they send in for suicide bombing. the high ranking people are in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Yeah, the leadership, except for the ones we have killed or captured, which is lots of them.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Cuba and the Soviet Union were communists and totalitarians , I fail to see the comparison. Progressive isn't socialism, why don't you understand that?

That is where socialism leads. Governments go very corrupt when given too much power over their people. Why don't you understand that?

Originally Posted by ninja9578

The entire northeast is near the top of that list. The entire south is near the bottom. To me that clearly shows the difference in economic systems' outcomes. The conservative controlled south is very poor because of unregulated capitalism. The progressive controlled northeast and west coast are very wealthy because of regulated capitalism.

Those areas are still very capitalistic, just maybe not as capitalistic as the South. The whole country has a certain degree of socialism, and we would be much better without it. The South has been full of trash for hundreds of years, and trash breeds more trash. The North has had less of a problem with that since forever ago.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

I don't recall him ever lying about being friends with William Ayers or anyone else. He said that he didn't agree with some of the things they they say or do, but support their charities and humanitarian work.

Come on. He at first said William Ayers was some guy in the neighborhood and pretty much left it at that, very misleadingly. He said he never knew Reverend Wright was such an America hating racist nut ball, after going to his church services twice a month for twenty years and being very, very close to him. Do you really believe that shit? No, you don't.

Originally Posted by dylanshmai

Mcainss policies are the same as George Bush's, and if you don't realize that, you have graduated to "idiot".

Obamas tax cut for the rich is nothing to complain about, he is returning the favor since Bush did it to the middle class/poor.

f*** Mcain, f*** Pailin, f*** Bush, and f*** you if you voted for any of them. You should be ashamed of yourself.

No, McCain very often opposed the other Republicans. Educate yourself. Tax cuts are great, but increasing taxes on the people who create jobs is a dumb ass idea.

You have to be at least 15 to be a member here.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

That is where socialism leads. Governments go very corrupt when given too much power over their people. Why don't you understand that?

You're contradicting yourself. You said that you support McCain. Totalitarian is where the government has control of people, not socialism. And where do you keep getting the idea that the progressive states are socialist?

Those areas are still very capitalistic, just maybe not as capitalistic as the South. The whole country has a certain degree of socialism, and we would be much better without it. The South has been full of trash for hundreds of years, and trash breeds more trash. The North has had less of a problem with that since forever ago.

True, but they also provide services for their people, which you are calling socialism. They also highly regulate the market.

No, McCain very often opposed the other Republicans. Educate yourself. Tax cuts are great, but increasing taxes on the people who create jobs is a dumb ass idea.

You have to be at least 15 to be a member here.

Not true at all, where the hell did you get that information? Did you assume it because he calls himself a Maverick? He's the truth coming straight from John McCain's mouth.



You continue to criticize Obama for raising taxes, but you fail to state where you think the money for the war in Iraq will come from. Bush caused the tax hikes because he spent so much money, you're not allowed to blame Obama for having to balance the budget.

You support the war, but not paying for it? Can I use the same system get a new Prius? PLEASE!

Originally Posted by ninja9578

You're contradicting yourself. You said that you support McCain. Totalitarian is where the government has control of people, not socialism. And where do you keep getting the idea that the progressive states are socialist?

1. I said McCain is better than Obama but sucks.
2. I said socialism leads to too much government power over the people, not that it equals totalitarianism automatically. Please read what you respond to.
3. I said the whole country has a level of socialism, not that any states are full blown socialist. Please read what you respond to. Thanks.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

True, but they also provide services for their people, which you are calling socialism. They also highly regulate the market.

A degree of sociasm, not full blown socialism. How many times do I need to clarify that?

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Not true at all, where the hell did you get that information? Did you assume it because he calls himself a Maverick? He's the truth coming straight from John McCain's mouth.

He opposed Bush roughly 10% of the time. Look it up.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

You continue to criticize Obama for raising taxes, but you fail to state where you think the money for the war in Iraq will come from. Bush caused the tax hikes because he spent so much money, you're not allowed to blame Obama for having to balance the budget.

Tax decreases will result in more revenue, which will result in more tax money. Yes, lowering tax percentages will result in more tax money. When we are facing a second Great Depression, raising taxes will be suicide. Do you want that? This is no time to play silly coffee shop games.

Also, we can cut lots of fat. Why didn't you think of at least that?

Originally Posted by ninja9578

You support the war, but not paying for it? Can I use the same system get a new Prius? PLEASE!

Your strawman tactics are getting old.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

1. I said McCain is better than Obama but sucks.
2. I said socialism leads to too much government power over the people, not that it equals totalitarianism automatically. Please read what you respond to.
3. I said the whole country has a level of socialism, not that any states are full blown socialist. Please read what you respond to. Thanks.

Then why do you call them socialist? Socialism is total government control of money and services. The fact is that the places that have some socialism do better than those with little socialism.

He opposed Bush roughly 10% of the time. Look it up.

But Bush has been wrong 90% of the time. See the amount of overlap? Barrack Obama opposed Bush 90% of the time.

Tax decreases will result in more revenue, which will result in more tax money. Yes, lowering tax percentages will result in more tax money. When we are facing a second Great Depression, raising taxes will be suicide. Do you want that? This is no time to play silly coffee shop games.

McCain taxes the middle class, which is the engine that drives the economy. Obama cuts taxes for the middle class. The middle class is what drives the economy.

Calculate your own tax cut. This is an independent bipartisan group. http://alchemytoday.com/obamataxcut/

If you don't believe that one you can google how much you'll get from either candidate. Every economist in the world says that if you're middle class you'll get more back from Obama.

Why do you want less money, don't you know that money is what stimulates the economy?

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Then why do you call them socialist? Socialism is total government control of money and services. The fact is that the places that have some socialism do better than those with little socialism.


But Bush has been wrong 90% of the time. See the amount of overlap? Barrack Obama opposed Bush 90% of the time.


McCain taxes the middle class, which is the engine that drives the economy. Obama cuts taxes for the middle class. The middle class is what drives the economy.

Calculate your own tax cut. This is an independent bipartisan group. http://alchemytoday.com/obamataxcut/

If you don't believe that one you can google how much you'll get from either candidate. Every economist in the world says that if you're middle class you'll get more back from Obama.

Why do you want less money, don't you know that money is what stimulates the economy?

You trust the liar way too much. He talked about not raising taxes on people who make under 250 thousand a year, then said he would not raise taxes on anybody who makes under 200 thousand a year. Now Biden is saying they won't raise taxes on anybody who makes under 150 thousand a year. Those clowns are screwing up their own words because they are full of shit. Don't you see the insincerity? And guess what... Obama voted to raise taxes on people making more than 42 thousand a year. Go figure.

The super rich drive the economy big time, and raising taxes on them now would create an economic nightmare. Do you know how many people Bill Gates employs, for example?

But don't worry. Obama is not going to win.

There's a little distinction between Ayers and Al Quada. Just a little. The main one being Ayers doesn't want to bankrupt the American economy by instigating them into foreign wars. Yeah, he's pretty much just an old crazy hippy. Terrorists are a real threat, though, and you make it into a joke by using Ayers to try to discredit Obama.

Also Obama isn't a socialist. Burden of proof lies on you for that one.

Are you being serious?

Originally Posted by Omnius Deus

There's a little distinction between Ayers and Al Quada. Just a little. The main one being Ayers doesn't want to bankrupt the American economy by instigating them into foreign wars. Yeah, he's pretty much just an old crazy hippy. Terrorists are a real threat, though, and you make it into a joke by using Ayers to try to discredit Obama.

Ayers is a terrorist. What you said does not contradict that.

Originally Posted by Omnius Deus

Also Obama isn't a socialist. Burden of proof lies on you for that one.

He believes in greatly increased socialism, even if he does not want it on the level the Soviet Union had it, which he probably does. Do you know what "spread the wealth" means? He was talking to a fucking plumber when he talked about taking his money and "spreading the wealth".

Originally Posted by Xei

Are you being serious?

Yes. His name is Bill Ayers. Most of the media won't talk about him because today's media is more interested in playing politics than in reporting news. Pretty sick, huh?

...you're very weak minded when it comes to propaganda, aren't you?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

You trust the liar way too much. He talked about not raising taxes on people who make under 250 thousand a year, then said he would not raise taxes on anybody who makes under 200 thousand a year. Now Biden is saying they won't raise taxes on anybody who makes under 150 thousand a year. Those clowns are screwing up their own words because they are full of shit. Don't you see the insincerity?

I don't know where you are getting this information. His tax plan is played out on his website. It has not deviated from 250,000. You trust liars way too much.

And guess what... Obama voted to raise taxes on people making more than 42 thousand a year. Go figure.

That is a flat out lie from John McCain. No one can collaborate that and he won't say where he got that information. Even Fox says that it was a lie. Voting records and who sponsored what bill is public information. That never happened. Lies.



Have you heard and / or understand the proverb:
A dumb man doesn't learn from mistakes;
A smart man learns from his mistakes;
but a wise man learns from the mistakes of others.

You've been throwing out a lot of speculation about things, but have no data to back it up. I've always used real data.

You say that the liberal tax plan of taxing the wealthy and lowering taxes for the middle class causes economic instability and looses jobs. History from Clinton, FDR, and Kennedy says the opposite.

You say that the conservative tax plan of giving handouts to the rich creates a strong economy and creates jobs. History from Hoover, Nixon, Reagan, Bush, and Bush says the opposite.

You say that spending money on the military that the government doesn't have will keep the country stable and safe. History from Mesopotamia, Rome, Greece, Byzantines, Mongols, Persians, Egyptians, Turks, French, British, German, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese and soviets says the opposite.

You say because Japan has problems with health care that socialized medicine doesn't work. Canada, England, France, Germany, Norway, Finland and Spain says the opposite. Why don't you stop listening to propaganda and go there or better yet, ask someone who lives there. Would you like a list of DV members that have socialized medicine? There are quiet a few of them.

Do you know what caused the mortgage crisis? It was people borrowing more money than they could pay back. Sound familiar. The terrorist plans are not to fight the US head to head, its to drain our economy in wars that cost too much. By supporting John McCain, you support the terrorist plan, and ergo: the terrorists.

Ignorance, a powerful ally for the Republicans.

I'm going back to my coffee shop to talk politics, why don't you stop with the gun club politics?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

He believes in greatly increased socialism, even if he does not want it on the level the Soviet Union had it, which he probably does. Do you know what "spread the wealth" means? He was talking to a fucking plumber when he talked about taking his money and "spreading the wealth".

If you really understood the notion of socialism beyond what the republican party propaganda tells you, you would understand that McCain is, if anything, more socialist than Obama.

Originally Posted by Xei

...you're very weak minded when it comes to propaganda, aren't you?

Don't be a douche bag, asshole. If you can't debate me, don't pretend like you are doing it. It is very convenient for you to sit there and pretend that reality is a fiction story when it is actually fact, but it is not going to work. Obama did in fact give a pro-Ayers speech in Ayers' living room, Obama did in fact become Ayers' partner in public speaking, Obama did in fact chair an organization with Ayers, and Obama has many other very close associates who are that left wing crazy. If you are going to put your head up your ass and cop out by saying that stuff is not true, you might as well be asserting that Puerto Rico does not exist.

If I were weak minded when it comes to propaganda, I would support the war on drugs and be either a Christian or a leftist, one of the two national REALIGIONS. YOU are weak minded and sucking up the most left wing and loonie propaganda. YOU are a sheep and are not thinking. YOU are in denial of the facts. Don't try that stupid shit on me.

Originally Posted by drewmandan

If you really understood the notion of socialism beyond what the republican party propaganda tells you, you would understand that McCain is, if anything, more socialist than Obama.

Shut up. Seriously. Like I just told your fellow cult member, atheists who support drug legalization do not blindly accept Republican propaganda. Study Obama's history and know what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

I don't know where you are getting this information. His tax plan is played out on his website. It has not deviated from 250,000. You trust liars way too much.

It's on video. YOU trust liars too much. Do I need to dig it up on You Tube?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8sWT_SSQwE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQZTbTYGxdM

I can't find the one with the $200,000 figure, but I'm pretty sure it's in his infomercial. I just came across it yesterday. It does exist.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

I don't know where you are getting this information. His tax plan is played out on his website. It has not deviated from 250,000. You trust liars way too much.


That is a flat out lie from John McCain. No one can collaborate that and he won't say where he got that information. Even Fox says that it was a lie. Voting records and who sponsored what bill is public information. That never happened. Lies.



Have you heard and / or understand the proverb:
A dumb man doesn't learn from mistakes;
A smart man learns from his mistakes;
but a wise man learns from the mistakes of others.

You've been throwing out a lot of speculation about things, but have no data to back it up. I've always used real data.

You say that the liberal tax plan of taxing the wealthy and lowering taxes for the middle class causes economic instability and looses jobs. History from Clinton, FDR, and Kennedy says the opposite.

You say that the conservative tax plan of giving handouts to the rich creates a strong economy and creates jobs. History from Hoover, Nixon, Reagan, Bush, and Bush says the opposite.

You say that spending money on the military that the government doesn't have will keep the country stable and safe. History from Mesopotamia, Rome, Greece, Byzantines, Mongols, Persians, Egyptians, Turks, French, British, German, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese and soviets says the opposite.

You say because Japan has problems with health care that socialized medicine doesn't work. Canada, England, France, Germany, Norway, Finland and Spain says the opposite. Why don't you stop listening to propaganda and go there or better yet, ask someone who lives there. Would you like a list of DV members that have socialized medicine? There are quiet a few of them.

Do you know what caused the mortgage crisis? It was people borrowing more money than they could pay back. Sound familiar. The terrorist plans are not to fight the US head to head, its to drain our economy in wars that cost too much. By supporting John McCain, you support the terrorist plan, and ergo: the terrorists.

Ignorance, a powerful ally for the Republicans.

I'm going back to my coffee shop to talk politics, why don't you stop with the gun club politics?

You are a broken record. Kennedy was big on low taxes, and there are speeches on video that show him preaching it. And once again... Political correctness from your stupid cult caused the mortgage crisis.

Socialism killed the Soviet Union. The riches nations are captialistic. Republicans have been guilty of certain degrees socialism too, but usually their Democratic Congresses damaged the economy. War has repeatedly saved nations and even the world. I never said anything about giving handouts to the rich. You have lost your mind.