Thread: Why is the world going crazy?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

What is happening right now between Israelis and Palenstinians is not at all new. It has been going on for centuries and centuries and centuries.

What fight has there been between "Israelis" (which was a non-existent nationality before 1948) before the 1948 Palestine war? Unless of course when you say Israelis you mean {a group of people} and when you saw Palestinians you mean {another group of people} and when you say 'what is happening now' you mean {are fighting over a holy land}, in which case I agree.

Anyone who thinks "things have always been like this" must also be a holocaust denier.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

What fight has there been between "Israelis" (which was a non-existent nationality before 1948) before the 1948 Palestine war? Unless of course when you say Israelis you mean {a group of people} and when you saw Palestinians you mean {another group of people} and when you say 'what is happening now' you mean {are fighting over a holy land}, in which case I agree.

Israel is ancient. It just didn't become a nation until 1948.

The land that is being fought over now has been fought over for an outrageously long time by Jews and Muslims.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Anyone who thinks "things have always been like this" must also be a holocaust denier.

Why? I assume you are talking about the holocaust perpetrated by the Nazis. That is a strong example of how lunatic the world was more than 60 years ago, and it further illustrates my point. Things are not suddenly screwed up now. They have been for a long time. The holocaust in Europe that ended 64 years ago was by no means the first holocaust. People have been wiping out larg populations for as long as there have been large populations. Human society has always been screwed up.

Originally Posted by Licity

It's always been like this.

Only this time, there's an audience.

Bottom line.

Fair do's then, but isn't it fair to say that people are being changed by the very society we live in? Isn't the globalisation of the Earth changing it's own citizens. It used to be just 'my country, my world, my god', but these days people are becoming more aware of the big picture. It's got to be changing people on an individual basis, and thus probably their behaviour.

Although we changed society, society is changing us. The changed 'us' then change society further and the whole thing repeats. Is this evolution of society contained and natural? Is it for the better or are we careering off the rails?

I have to say it is comunication. As has already been stated the world has been crazier (WW2) but with how open we are to information via the internet and more advanced news casting, we can see what is going on everywhere at any time. Maybe this opening to information DOES change some people be it good or bad...but I think the major thing is being able to see every little death every day.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Israel is ancient. It just didn't become a nation until 1948.

The land that is being fought over now has been fought over for an outrageously long time by Jews and Muslims.



Why? I assume you are talking about the holocaust perpetrated by the Nazis. That is a strong example of how lunatic the world was more than 60 years ago, and it further illustrates my point. Things are not suddenly screwed up now. They have been for a long time. The holocaust in Europe that ended 64 years ago was by no means the first holocaust. People have been wiping out larg populations for as long as there have been large populations. Human society has always been screwed up.



Bottom line.

Because there was no Israelis before the end of the holocaust. There were Jews and thousands of years ago their were Israelites. The fact is, Jews and Muslims haven't been fighting for centuries. For the better part of the last 14 centuries (since the beginning of Islam) Jews and Muslims lived in and around the same areas in relative peace. Many Jews have actually converted to Islam over the years. Anyone that believes their has been a Jewish Muslim conflict in the west bank for centuries must deny the actual events (the holocaust and world war 2) that lead to the Jewish people gaining political power in the region and therefore actually starting the conflict.

The conflict that you think has been going on for centuries has been going on for one century, is between Jews and Arabs, and it began with the end of the Ottoman Empire and the Zionist movement that started around the beginning of the 1900's. Jews hadn't lived in Jerusalem in any great numbers or had any political control over the region for thousands of years. The british took Palestine from the Ottoman's at the end of the first world war and gave the area to the Jews at the end of the second world war, despite the fact that Palestinians still lived there. I'd also like to point out that Palestinian does not mean 'Muslim'. There are many different religions in Palestine, including Judaism.

You need to study your history, bottom line.

Like I said before, all you could possibly say "it has always been like this" about and still be right is the fact that some people are fighting some other people over a piece of land. Nothing else about the current conflict has been going on for nearly as long as you seem to believe.

So maybe the Gaza strip hasn't been so alit throughout all of history, but the world is no stranger to horrible acts of violence and massacres. They're just being over reported now.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Because there was no Israelis before the end of the holocaust.

People of Israel, a general land area that was not declared a nation until 1948. "Israelite" was the common terminology way back, but "Israeli" is what is now used to label people who live there. So there is a relatively new word for the locals. People of Israel.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

The conflict that you think has been going on for centuries has been going on for one century, is between Jews and Arabs, and it began with the end of the Ottoman Empire and the Zionist movement that started around the beginning of the 1900's. Jews hadn't lived in Jerusalem in any great numbers or had any political control over the region for thousands of years. The british took Palestine from the Ottoman's at the end of the first world war and gave the area to the Jews at the end of the second world war, despite the fact that Palestinians still lived there. I'd also like to point out that Palestinian does not mean 'Muslim'. There are many different religions in Palestine, including Judaism.

Jews have much more power there now, but the conflict over who are the descendants of what Biblical figure and are therefore entitled to the land has been going on since ancient times. "Relative peace" is not "peace". The fight has been going on for ages and ages, and other groups have been caught up in it. The big difference now is that the Jews can kick major ass because they have a nation and the world's most powerful possible ally.

I never said that Palestinians are all Muslims. However, Palestinians are fighting over Israel for pro-Islamic reasons. Thus, the conflict is a Jew-Muslim conflict primarily, but as has been going on throughout the ages, other groups are caught up in it. It is just that for a very long time, the Muslim power was clearly dominant. Now it is not.

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhisto...arly%20History

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Like I said before, all you could possibly say "it has always been like this" about and still be right is the fact that some people are fighting some other people over a piece of land.

That is what I am saying along with saying that the land is Israel and that Jews and Muslims have been fighting over it since ancient times.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

People of Israel, a general land area that was not declared a nation until 1948. "Israelite" was the common terminology way back, but "Israeli" is what is now used to label people who live there. So there is a relatively new word for the locals. People of Israel.



Jews have much more power there now, but the conflict over who are the descendants of what Biblical figure and are therefore entitled to the land has been going on since ancient times. "Relative peace" is not "peace". The fight has been going on for ages and ages, and other groups have been caught up in it. The big difference now is that the Jews can kick major ass because they have a nation and the world's most powerful possible ally.

I never said that Palestinians are all Muslims. However, Palestinians are fighting over Israel for pro-Islamic reasons. Thus, the conflict is a Jew-Muslim conflict primarily, but as has been going on throughout the ages, other groups are caught up in it. It is just that for a very long time, the Muslim power was clearly dominant. Now it is not.

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhisto...arly%20History



That is what I am saying along with saying that the land is Israel and that Jews and Muslims have been fighting over it since ancient times.

Your own link says that Jews hadn't had any control or even fought over the area since 61 B.C. when Rome took control over the area. What are you trying to prove with it? The Christians and the Muslims have fought over the area a great deal more. It looks like you just went and nabbed a link without even reading to see if it supported what you were trying to say.

Are you just having trouble admitting you are wrong? Islam didn't even exist during the 'ancient times' when Jews had control over the place they called Israel. How could Jews and Muslims be fighting when Muslims didn't exist? Like I've said 3 times now, Someone has been fighting over the land for thousands of years but it has only been Israeli's and Arabs for a relatively short amount of time.

If you'll just take a look at your own source, Muslims captured the land in the 7th century (right around the time Mohamed created the religion) and then held it through different empires up until the 1900's, when the Zionist movement first began. That means that during the first 1300 years of their existence, Muslims did not fight Jews over the land in the West Bank. How exactly does that constitute "Jews and Muslims have been fighting over it since ancient times"?

You live in Tennessee, right? I wonder how you might feel to find out that you actually live in the Cherokee Nation, even though it hasn't been that for almost 200 years. Imagine if it hadn't been the Cherokee Nation for more than 2000 years but someone was still trying to argue with you that it never was Tennessee in the first place. What would you tell them? Are you currently fighting the Cherokee's over the land?

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Your own link says that Jews hadn't had any control or even fought over the area since 61 B.C. when Rome took control over the area. What are you trying to prove with it? The Christians and the Muslims have fought over the area a great deal more. It looks like you just went and nabbed a link without even reading to see if it supported what you were trying to say.

I didn't say Jews had control. It was Muslim dominated, but Jews believed it was theirs and did push to live there, with resistance. But it is true that the fight over the land involved Christians more than Jews for a lot of the time and that the Jewish part of the push was pretty wimpy for a long time.

The point is that the "holy land" has been fought over since ancient times and Jews and Arabs, who have been mostly Muslims for many centuries, have been part of it the whole time, on whatever levels. And "ancient" does not inherently mean "B.C."

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Are you just having trouble admitting you are wrong? Islam didn't even exist during the 'ancient times' when Jews had control over the place they called Israel. How could Jews and Muslims be fighting when Muslims didn't exist? Like I've said 3 times now, Someone has been fighting over the land for thousands of years but it has only been Israeli's and Arabs for a relatively short amount of time.

Islam didn't exist during ancient times? That depends on your definition of "ancient". I never said Muslims were fighting Jews over the land when Jews had control long ago.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

If you'll just take a look at your own source, Muslims captured the land in the 7th century (right around the time Mohamed created the religion) and then held it through different empires up until the 1900's, when the Zionist movement first began. That means that during the first 1300 years of their existence, Muslims did not fight Jews over the land in the West Bank. How exactly does that constitute "Jews and Muslims have been fighting over it since ancient times"?

Why are you so determined to split hairs? Weak fighting is still fighting. The prejudice, the exclusion, and the resulting rebellion existed. Again, the fight over the "holy land" has been going on since ancient times and Jews and Muslims have been significantly and often heavily involved in it. The fighting over the "holy land" is nothing new period, and it is nothing new for Jews and Muslims to be part of it.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

You live in Tennessee, right? I wonder how you might feel to find out that you actually live in the Cherokee Nation, even though it hasn't been that for almost 200 years. Imagine if it hadn't been the Cherokee Nation for more than 2000 years but someone was still trying to argue with you that it never was Tennessee in the first place. What would you tell them? Are you currently fighting the Cherokee's over the land?

I live in Mississippi, and I am part Cherokee. There are Cherokees that believe Cherokee land was stolen and should be returned to Cherokees, but that is extraordinarily fringe compared to the Jewish belief that the "holy land" belongs to Jews and has since God gave it to them, a belief that has existed on a very large scale since ancient times and acted on with violence on so many, many occasions. As far as I know, there has not been a single Cherokee who has had any kind of physical confrontation or exclusion from Mississippi based on heritage in my life time.

I was gonna say that Zionism is one of the major factors as to why the Israeli-Palestinean conflict exists today, but alas it's already been mentioned.

Instead, I'll just say that the world has always been crazy. Life is no ordinary thing, and some people in this unordinary existence make it extraunordinary.