Thread: "All in favor of gun control, raise your right hand!"

It's pretty clear that most Americans are against gun control. There is a big difference between how the American people and European people look at gun control.

You grow up with it, it is normal to have a gun in the house, it is normal to see murders all over the place, it is the NORM. You don't want to see your loving gun gone. You have been raised with the little story about the old lady in her house, "oh, she can't defend herself, we must have guns". Btw studies have shown the most, or a lot of victims of home-defense guns have shot innocent famility members.

You fail to see the spiral, you fail to see the chain of event, leading from the criminals getting guns like candy, to brutal murders.

Do not think like this "All have guns, we need guns to protect ourselves" but think like this "No one have guns, we don't need guns to protect ourselves".

I will bet that guns and arms in your country have killed thousands of more people than it has ever saved.

Will a strict gun control refrain you from geting a firearm? No, but you have the earn the right, it should be a privilege and not an inherent right.

Now stop, get rid of the fear, liberate yourself from the unnessesary violence.

Prohibition of anything just plain doesn't work in the US, whether it be drugs, alcohol, guns, or politically sensitive texts. Banning something only makes it more appealing to Americans.

And don't get started on the democrat=gun control debate. It doesn't. In the backwards redneck county I live in, everybody voted for Bush MkIII because of this.

Spoiler for "All in favor of gun control, raise your right hand!":

It has nothing to do with fear at all. I should know, because I am not even remotely scared, and I do not own a gun. Even though I do not own a gun, should they ever become banned I would go out and buy one, just out of spite. Because I feel that strongly in the right of every person to be able to own one, should they wish it.

People who own guns, are no more violent than people who do not own them. Guns do not cause violence, they do not cause people to become angry or cause people to murder each other. They are simply tools. Nothing but tools.

Fear comes in, with the people who want gun control. They seek to control what they fear, which are guns. I have never known a person who has been shot, and none of my friends or family ever been murdered. So saying I grew up in a dangerous place were murder is common is silly.

People some how believe that guns are dangerous to a the people who own them. The fact is, responsible people who are carefully are not going to accidentally shoot them self or anyone else. Most accidents happen around the house and people die all the time. Not from guns, but from just general accidents. When people get careless they cause accidents.

If you never point a gun at another person, you will never kill anyone. People who are aware of where they point their gun, never accidentally hurt people. Your stance isn't really an argument for gun control, but an argument for better teaching in gun safety. Though I don't believe that at all. Some of the stats that go around, is that half of all homes have a gun in them. Well I can tell you now, if half of the population accidentally shot them self at some point, we would know it. Its simply not true, that most people owning a gun hurt people or have accidents.

As for defending yourself. Lets say for example, that no criminal had a gun. You still need to defend yourself from knife attacks and people with clubs and stuff. Even equipped with your own knife to defend yourself there is a very high chance of dying. Knife attacks are brutal and lets be honest here. Most people need a gun to stop an attacker who has a weapon. Even if that weapon is a knife.

The example of the old lady with a gun is a classic example, because the gun is the great equalizer. If we had no guns, the strongest person would always win the fight. Meaning if the thug if a big bodybuilder, he will be able to subdue 90% of the people he robs. That is not the case with a gun. You can be weak, crippled, fat and slow but if you have a gun you can stop someone who is physically stronger than you are.

Besides, even if you banned all guns. Criminals would still get them. There are simply to many of them. Being able to defend yourself is an inherent right. Its a god given right. Heck forget god, even if your an atheist you should believe in the right to defend your own existence.

Originally Posted by Odd_Nonposter

Prohibition of anything just plain doesn't work in the US, whether it be drugs, alcohol, guns, or politically sensitive texts.

I'm just throwing this our there, but I feel that one of the reasons it would be so much more difficult to eliminate gun ownership in the US as well as control the prevalence of drugs is because we have two very wide borders. With the UK, you are surrounded by water. Transportation to and from your country is limited and is more easily monitored. There's less space for people to hide.
Area of UK: 244,820 SQ KM

Area of US: 9,161,923 SQ KM

The US is 37.4 times the size of the UK. There's an awful lot of places for someone to hide and distribute goods and making it more difficult for law enforcement to execute these proposed gun control laws. People complain that law enforcement is wasting money looking for and persecuting pot-heads, but it will cost even more to look for and prosecute those with hunting rifles in their homes.

As far as automatic weapons or sub-machine guns and the like, I don't think the public needs to possess those. They are not used for hunting and are *pardon the expression* overkill when it comes to self-defense, so yes, I could see restrictions on those kinds of weapons. At the same time, I'd hate to deprive a peace-loving collector from possessing a firearm, but even those should be registered and the owner should inform authorities of any theft. They should do that anyway, but now I'm rambling.

Disjointed thoughts, go.

On an somewhat unrelated note, in Oregon our state congress is talking about making public the names of those people who have concealed weapons permits. If that passed, there'd be a nice database for criminals to go through so they can see who has a gun they can steal.

I think you guys are missing the entire point of this thread.

Originally Posted by Amethyst Star

I'm just throwing this our there, but I feel that one of the reasons it would be so much more difficult to eliminate gun ownership in the US as well as control the prevalence of drugs is because we have two very wide borders. With the UK, you are surrounded by water. Transportation to and from your country is limited and is more easily monitored. There's less space for people to hide.
Area of UK: 244,820 SQ KM


As far as automatic weapons or sub-machine guns and the like, I don't think the public needs to possess those. They are not used for hunting and are *pardon the expression* overkill when it comes to self-defense, so yes, I could see restrictions on those kinds of weapons. At the same time, I'd hate to deprive a peace-loving collector from possessing a firearm, but even those should be registered and the owner should inform authorities of any theft. They should do that anyway, but now I'm rambling.

This may seem far fetched, but in these times especially it is something to be considered: Have you ever thought of the possibility of an invasion? Martial Law? Malicious uprisings? Gang Wars? For all of these events, any hunting rifle or shotgun is not going to be sufficient for the citizen willing to defend his country, Constitution, family, and himself.

Not to mention the lack of authority that the government posesses to ban these weapons, they are precisely what the founders of our country would have wished to have in their hands if only technological progress would have permitted it. The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land, and it shall not be violated by any entity private or governmental, and in the Constitution it is directly stated that "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Everyone should have the right to a gun(within reason), I myself do not have a gun.. My sword is plenty sharp enough.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Everyone should have the right to a gun(within reason), I myself do not have a gun.. My sword is plenty sharp enough.

I totally agree, guns don't kill people, people kill people. Im sure someone has probably already stated this in this thread but I figured I'll reinerate.

I honestly feel that legalization and regulation of various drugs would reduce the rate of violent crimes in the US.

Originally Posted by Amethyst Star

I'm just throwing this our there, but I feel that one of the reasons it would be so much more difficult to eliminate gun ownership in the US as well as control the prevalence of drugs is because we have two very wide borders. With the UK, you are surrounded by water. Transportation to and from your country is limited and is more easily monitored. There's less space for people to hide.
Area of UK: 244,820 SQ KM

Area of US: 9,161,923 SQ KM

The US is 37.4 times the size of the UK. There's an awful lot of places for someone to hide and distribute goods and making it more difficult for law enforcement to execute these proposed gun control laws. People complain that law enforcement is wasting money looking for and persecuting pot-heads, but it will cost even more to look for and prosecute those with hunting rifles in their homes.

As far as automatic weapons or sub-machine guns and the like, I don't think the public needs to possess those. They are not used for hunting and are *pardon the expression* overkill when it comes to self-defense, so yes, I could see restrictions on those kinds of weapons. At the same time, I'd hate to deprive a peace-loving collector from possessing a firearm, but even those should be registered and the owner should inform authorities of any theft. They should do that anyway, but now I'm rambling.

Before I saw this post, I was just about to say that geography definitely plays a part in all this. America's size and close proximity to third-world nations switch up the playing rules.

America actually does control guns quite a bit, but it doesn't take them away from people. You have to have a background check and such done before you can get a gun, and if I'm not mistaken, in some states you can own an automatic weapon but only after quite a long process. I am satisfied with this form of gun control laws.

On an somewhat unrelated note, in Oregon our state congress is talking about making public the names of those people who have concealed weapons permits. If that passed, there'd be a nice database for criminals to go through so they can see who has a gun they can steal.

Do you think they realize that basically defeats the purpose of having a concealed weapon permit?

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

It's pretty clear that most Americans are against gun control. There is a big difference between how the American people and European people look at gun control.

You grow up with it, it is normal to have a gun in the house, it is normal to see murders all over the place, it is the NORM. You don't want to see your loving gun gone. You have been raised with the little story about the old lady in her house, "oh, she can't defend herself, we must have guns". Btw studies have shown the most, or a lot of victims of home-defense guns have shot innocent famility members.

You fail to see the spiral, you fail to see the chain of event, leading from the criminals getting guns like candy, to brutal murders.

Do not think like this "All have guns, we need guns to protect ourselves" but think like this "No one have guns, we don't need guns to protect ourselves".

I will bet that guns and arms in your country have killed thousands of more people than it has ever saved.

Will a strict gun control refrain you from geting a firearm? No, but you have the earn the right, it should be a privilege and not an inherent right.

Now stop, get rid of the fear, liberate yourself from the unnessesary violence.

Heres a simple retort to that statement:

On the black market, you can buy any gun, so in cities like new york, guns are illegal, yet criminals still have guns, how is this?

Instead of said criminal buying the gun from a store which has a unique serial number, and the person who bought it would be on record for buying the gun, so it would be easier to catch him if the gun were legal.

Reguardless of law, people will find guns from various illegal gun salesmen all over the nation, and the world.

If you want to rid guns of the world, pass a law forcing every gun to be destroyed, even the militaries...I assume no nation would ever consciously do that.

So thats why in our constitution it says we have the right to bear arms, to protect ourselves from criminals, AND from the government if it becomes tyrannical which it is infact already been tyrannical for quite some time.


That is why America shall always have legal guns, wether hillary clinton and her bubby obama like it or not.

We will keep our guns by peace, or by force...and I mean that for all Americans, they will all defend their guns, I want to see obama even attempt to take any gun away without asking for another civil war, one where its the US Citizens vs the government

I say again.. "I will bet that guns and arms in your country have killed thousands of more people than it has ever saved."

Originally Posted by Alric

It has nothing to do with fear at all. I should know, because I am not even remotely scared, and I do not own a gun. Even though I do not own a gun, should they ever become banned I would go out and buy one, just out of spite. Because I feel that strongly in the right of every person to be able to own one, should they wish it.

Ok, you don't buy guns because you fear to be a victim of a criminal act and not be able to defend yourself.

Originally Posted by Alric

People who own guns, are no more violent than people who do not own them. Guns do not cause violence, they do not cause people to become angry or cause people to murder each other. They are simply tools. Nothing but tools.

Guns do not cause violence, and do not make people hate eachother, but they certainly make it more easy to kill someone.

Originally Posted by Alric

Fear comes in, with the people who want gun control. They seek to control what they fear, which are guns. I have never known a person who has been shot, and none of my friends or family ever been murdered. So saying I grew up in a dangerous place were murder is common is silly.

hehe.. It should be possible to like guns and still want gun control, I can say fear comes in when people fear to get shot by a gun and gets their own, maybe someone would want gun control because the are not afraid of getting shot? They see how rediciouless it is, the risk of getting shot is very very low. You even state yourself that you have never known a person who has been shot, brilliant! Why then get a gun?

Originally Posted by Alric

People some how believe that guns are dangerous to a the people who own them. The fact is, responsible people who are carefully are not going to accidentally shoot them self or anyone else. Most accidents happen around the house and people die all the time. Not from guns, but from just general accidents. When people get careless they cause accidents.

So you see no problem with that a irresponsible indivdual getting a gun, people do cause accidents, with guns too.

Originally Posted by Alric

If you never point a gun at another person, you will never kill anyone. People who are aware of where they point their gun, never accidentally hurt people. Your stance isn't really an argument for gun control, but an argument for better teaching in gun safety. Though I don't believe that at all. Some of the stats that go around, is that half of all homes have a gun in them. Well I can tell you now, if half of the population accidentally shot them self at some point, we would know it. Its simply not true, that most people owning a gun hurt people or have accidents.

Of cause it's an argument, when you are handlig out guns like candy, shit WILL happen. ok.. teaching gun safety.. but that should be an obligation! If it's not gun restriction should be hightened, what would your problem be with people who can not handle a gun or prove that they know about safety, would not be allowed one. That is gun control (the forbidden word )

Originally Posted by Alric

As for defending yourself. Lets say for example, that no criminal had a gun. You still need to defend yourself from knife attacks and people with clubs and stuff. Even equipped with your own knife to defend yourself there is a very high chance of dying. Knife attacks are brutal and lets be honest here. Most people need a gun to stop an attacker who has a weapon. Even if that weapon is a knife.

You make it sound like that people should fight with their life over "their home", simply, either, call the police and wait or fight if you have a good chance..

Originally Posted by Alric

The example of the old lady with a gun is a classic example, because the gun is the great equalizer. If we had no guns, the strongest person would always win the fight. Meaning if the thug if a big bodybuilder, he will be able to subdue 90% of the people he robs. That is not the case with a gun. You can be weak, crippled, fat and slow but if you have a gun you can stop someone who is physically stronger than you are.

Great, old lady has a gun, the criminal has a gun, who is likely to survive. An old lady could probably easy shoot an innocent by mistake. There is nothing wrong with getting subued, in that sense that it's better than getting killed in a gunfight or kill another person.

Originally Posted by Alric

Besides, even if you banned all guns. Criminals would still get them. There are simply to many of them. Being able to defend yourself is an inherent right. Its a god given right. Heck forget god, even if your an atheist you should believe in the right to defend your own existence.

Yes, they would still get them, but it would be harder. And there are probably too many guns flooding anyway, but just some gun restriction wouldn't hurt that much.

I say we outlaw cars.

That just reminded me of something on the Guns and Dope parties web page.

GUNS and DOCTORS

a. The number of physicians in the United States is 700,000

b. Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year is 120,000.

c. Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171. (US Dept. of Health &
Human Services)

THINK ABOUT THIS:

a. The number of gun owners in the US is 80,000,000 (yes, eighty- million!).

b. The number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) is 1,500.

c. The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .0000188.

Statistically, doctors are about 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS A DOCTOR.

Alert your friends to this threat. We must ban doctors before this
gets out of hand.

As a public health measure I have withheld the statistics on lawyers
for fear that the shock could cause people to seek medical attention.

I don't think there is a high chance of getting shot. If you agree with that though, then why are you arguing for gun control? If the chance of getting shot is low, then clearly there isn't a gun problem. As for why I think they are needed, is because crime does happen. I think its highly unlikely that my house will burn down, and I never knew anyone who house burned down. Yet I have a fire extinguisher in my house. Same thing goes for a gun.

Shooting and hunting are both sports. So saying people only want guns because they have a fear of getting shot is also silly. Its entirely possible to just like guns. And if you are a responsible person, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to own a gun for that reason as well.

People get in car accidents as well. Probably far more deaths from car crashes than from guns. Yet no one wants to ban cars. As for handing out guns like candy, guns can cost a couple of hundred dollars. So while its not to difficult, people don't go out and just buy a gun.

Sure an old lady is more likely to lose, but her chances improve greatly. Since before she would have 100% chance of losing to everyone, she now easily beat anyone unarmed, anyone carrying small weapons like bats and stuff, people with knives, and stands a fighting chance against a person with a gun. The chance of accidentally shooting someone is pretty slim, as you have to point the gun at them, and if you pointing a gun at innocent people its called murder.

And being subdued isn't a good thing. Its not ever. That how you get murdered or raped and stuff. Getting hit in the head with a pipe, isn't better than being shot. Getting raped isn't better than being shot at. If you want to put your life into the hands of a criminal and hope for mercy thats your choice. But don't expect other people to do it.

Originally Posted by stonedape

That just reminded me of something on the Guns and Dope parties web page.

GUNS and DOCTORS

a. The number of physicians in the United States is 700,000

b. Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year is 120,000.

c. Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171. (US Dept. of Health &
Human Services)

THINK ABOUT THIS:

a. The number of gun owners in the US is 80,000,000 (yes, eighty- million!).

b. The number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) is 1,500.

c. The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .0000188.

Statistically, doctors are about 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS A DOCTOR.

Alert your friends to this threat. We must ban doctors before this
gets out of hand.

As a public health measure I have withheld the statistics on lawyers
for fear that the shock could cause people to seek medical attention.

Well, this thread has come to a thrilling and quite delicious end.

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

I say again.. "I will bet that guns and arms in your country have killed thousands of more people than it has ever saved."



Ok, you don't buy guns because you fear to be a victim of a criminal act and not be able to defend yourself.


Guns do not cause violence, and do not make people hate eachother, but they certainly make it more easy to kill someone.

hehe.. It should be possible to like guns and still want gun control, I can say fear comes in when people fear to get shot by a gun and gets their own, maybe someone would want gun control because the are not afraid of getting shot? They see how rediciouless it is, the risk of getting shot is very very low. You even state yourself that you have never known a person who has been shot, brilliant! Why then get a gun?

So you see no problem with that a irresponsible indivdual getting a gun, people do cause accidents, with guns too.

Of cause it's an argument, when you are handlig out guns like candy, shit WILL happen. ok.. teaching gun safety.. but that should be an obligation! If it's not gun restriction should be hightened, what would your problem be with people who can not handle a gun or prove that they know about safety, would not be allowed one. That is gun control (the forbidden word )

You make it sound like that people should fight with their life over "their home", simply, either, call the police and wait or fight if you have a good chance..

Great, old lady has a gun, the criminal has a gun, who is likely to survive. An old lady could probably easy shoot an innocent by mistake. There is nothing wrong with getting subued, in that sense that it's better than getting killed in a gunfight or kill another person.


Yes, they would still get them, but it would be harder. And there are probably too many guns flooding anyway, but just some gun restriction wouldn't hurt that much.

The laws in this country are retarded, I think if someone breaks in your house you should have the automatic right to kill them...

Would solve a lot of these break in problems.

Gun restricition won't work, as someone said.. Criminals can always get ahold of them.

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

Will a strict gun control refrain you from geting a firearm? No, but you have the earn the right, it should be a privilege and not an inherent right.

Do you think the United States could have a legal situation that would cause street thugs to say, "Dammit, I just can't find any guns. Where can I get a gun? Apparently nowhere. Oh well, screw it."?

Criminals do criminal things.
Hence, laws never work.
Nothing should be illegal.

/thread

"Many suffer non-fatal gunshot wounds, with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimating 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000."

"Number of people killed by guns in the United States in 2004: 29,569

Percentage breakdown by US gun deaths in 2004, by type:

* 16,750 suicides (56% of all U.S. gun deaths)
* 11,624 homicides (40%)
* 649 unintentional shootings, 311 from legal intervention and 235 from undetermined intent (4%).

That averages out to 81 people dying everyday from guns. "

---

To the point, can you really say that legal guns save more people than it kills?

How many gets killed when the situation is like now?
How many would get killed if guns were generally outlawed?

If you see it from the big picture, and not just yourself and your own security, then it would be more safe with guns outlawed. If you are in doubt just look around! Clearly there's a differerence if you look at countries where guns are not that easy to get.

Alric, you have not answered why irresponsible people should not be prohibited guns, I think it's common sense that not everyone should own a gun, or apperently not.

I say give guns freely to all the idiots who think they need them. Then they can all shoot eachother and the rest of us can move on with our lives.

If someone breaks into your home with a gun and the willingness to use it, chances are you are going to get seriously fucked up, no matter what. Does it really make a difference if you shoot them back?

Originally Posted by Shift

I think you guys are missing the entire point of this thread.

Oh right, Ehem...

Good point. Why should we try to stop people from killing us and raping our wives? We should all be buddhists because guns kill people and violence is bad. One time this guy called me names and I said: sticks and stones buddy! Jesus loves me...someone rob me please.

Yes just look at the statics you gave. If you remove he suicide deaths, because people will just jump off a building. Your number is very very small. You could also remove a huge chunk from homicide since if your going to murder someone, not having a gun isn't going to stop you.

I went and looked around for gun stats in self defense. The upper number that is often quoted is 2.5 million cases of people using guns in self defense PER year. The lowest cases are still in the hundreds of thousands a year.

So we are talking about hundreds of thousands, possibly over a million, compared to 28,000, tops. And if you remove suicide, you are talking about 12,000 deaths.