"Absolutely torture."

Tasering someone multiple times is torture. I have seen cases where people were tasered over and over even when they weren't resisting, and in cases like that its police torture, and it is very wrong.

Harder labor isn't torture as long as you don't work them until they drop. If you work them until they pass out from it, then yes that is torture, and its against the law and stuff.

Court isn't torture and you know it. That is just you being argumentative. There is no physical distress involved, nor is there any physiological abuse done to the person.

Lets look at the reality of things though. The fact of the matter is torture is a very minor thing in the way of our daily lives. We don't see terrorists on the streets, they do not attack us, there hasn't been any attacks since 9/11. Terrorism was totally overblown to begin with. We are not in any real danger from them, and so even if we wanted to agree with you, we would not. Because there simply isn't any real threats that we need torture to stop.

To answer you question though, why do we hate people who torture others? Because torturing is an evil act. We are against torture, its in the US constitution. Torture is not tolerated, and it never should be.

You know what? You like using bad examples to prove your point and you keep going to the extreme. Saying long trails are torture, so let me do the same. I will use a horrible disgusting example.

You have a terrorist who had planted a dirty nuclear bomb within a major city and you knew it would go off within an hour and he has resisted all torture so far. You have his baby son though. If you knew for a fact he would give up the information and you would save everyone in the city, would you put the babies head in a vice and crush its head while he watched?

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Originally Posted by Alric

Tasering someone multiple times is torture. I have seen cases where people were tasered over and over even when they weren't resisting, and in cases like that its police torture, and it is very wrong.

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That does not answer my question. Is tasering somebody at all when they resist arrest "torture"?

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Originally Posted by Alric

Harder labor isn't torture as long as you don't work them until they drop. If you work them until they pass out from it, then yes that is torture, and its against the law and stuff.

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Why is it not torture if they just work until they feel physical pain while being scared because they are in prison?

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Originally Posted by Alric

Court isn't torture and you know it. That is just you being argumentative. There is no physical distress involved

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They have to get up very early in the morning while they are in jail. That is awful for some people. Also, criminal trial is an emotional horror story... that goes on for days to months. The emotional aspect of waterboarding is what makes it suck so bad.

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Originally Posted by Alric

Lets look at the reality of things though. The fact of the matter is torture is a very minor thing in the way of our daily lives. We don't see terrorists on the streets, they do not attack us, there hasn't been any attacks since 9/11. Terrorism was totally overblown to begin with. We are not in any real danger from them, and so even if we wanted to agree with you, we would not. Because there simply isn't any real threats that we need torture to stop.

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We aren't having terrorist attacks because we keep stopping the attempts and preventing them ahead of time.

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Originally Posted by Alric

To answer you question though, why do we hate people who torture others? Because torturing is an evil act. We are against torture, its in the US constitution. Torture is not tolerated, and it never should be.

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I never asked that. I asked why the outrage is disproportionate to the outrage toward the terrorists.

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Originally Posted by Alric

You know what? You like using bad examples to prove your point and you keep going to the extreme. Saying long trails are torture, so let me do the same. I will use a horrible disgusting example.

You have a terrorist who had planted a dirty nuclear bomb within a major city and you knew it would go off within an hour and he has resisted all torture so far. You have his baby son though. If you knew for a fact he would give up the information and you would save everyone in the city, would you put the babies head in a vice and crush its head while he watched?

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I use very realistic examples. Wake up and stop acting like you were raised in Ice Cream Land.

Yes, I would crush the baby's head if I thought doing so would save an entire city. Would you let a whole city (thousands of babies included) die to save one baby?

Have you read the Trolley thread in the Philosophy forum?

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

That does not answer my question. Is tasering somebody at all when they resist arrest "torture"?

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If you do it more than once then yes it is. Seeing as how a person can't resist after being tasered, using it more than once is torture, and the police get sued over it often. In general, one shock isn't torture though. Its less harmful than having to punch them in the face to get them to stop.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Why is it not torture if they just work until they feel physical pain while being scared because they are in prison?




They have to get up very early in the morning while they are in jail. That is awful for some people. Also, criminal trial is an emotional horror story... that goes on for days to months. The emotional aspect of waterboarding is what makes it suck so bad.

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Look up torture.
1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty. 2. a method of inflicting such pain. 3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone. 4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony. 5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.
Torture is extreme, severe and excruciating pain. None of the examples you listed are anything even remotely severe in any way at all. Water boarding is severe and extreme. Hence the reason it is torture, why sitting in a court room for a month is not. Which you already knew.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I never asked that. I asked why the outrage is disproportionate to the outrage toward the terrorists.

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If there are evil people in our government who would commit crimes against humanity, they are our first priority not terrorists who are half a world away.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Yes, I would crush the baby's head if I thought doing so would save an entire city. Would you let a whole city (thousands of babies included) die to save one baby?

Have you read the Trolley thread in the Philosophy forum?

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Yes I would. Torturing and murdering people to protect other is wrong. Torturing and murdering is always wrong. Even if you remove the horrible moral problems with committing evil acts on other humans, you still find yourself on that slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? You admitted you would kill innocent people to get the answers you needed.

The fact is for you, there is no line. No matter what is done, if its for the 'greater good' you will do it. Spying on people, torturing people and even murder are acceptable practices in your ideal government. The problem is we live in the United States of America. Freedom is more important than life. We do not murder innocent people, we do not torture. We respect individuals.

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Originally Posted by Alric

If you do it more than once then yes it is. Seeing as how a person can't resist after being tasered, using it more than once is torture, and the police get sued over it often. In general, one shock isn't torture though. Its less harmful than having to punch them in the face to get them to stop.

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Again, I am not asking that. I am asking if doing it AT ALL is inherently torture. Is tasering somebody once torture? It hurts like all Hell and is very scary.

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Originally Posted by Alric

Look up torture.
1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty. 2. a method of inflicting such pain. 3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone. 4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony. 5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.
Torture is extreme, severe and excruciating pain. None of the examples you listed are anything even remotely severe in any way at all. Water boarding is severe and extreme. Hence the reason it is torture, why sitting in a court room for a month is not. Which you already knew.

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That clears up nothing. It is just an assertion with a personal insult. Explain the differences if you really think they exist. You might as well have said nothing.

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Originally Posted by Alric

If there are evil people in our government who would commit crimes against humanity, they are our first priority not terrorists who are half a world away.

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Half a world away? Wrong. They have cells here. The ones who are half a world away can get here in a hurry. Protecting our country from crimes against our humanity is an enormous priority. If we did not recognize that priority, you would be either dead or in an Islamic or other fascist state by now. You take so much for granted and seem to have no Earthly idea what people are going through to keep you safe from the large organizations who seek and work to make Americans extinct. They do exist.

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Originally Posted by Alric

Yes I would. Torturing and murdering people to protect other is wrong. Torturing and murdering is always wrong. Even if you remove the horrible moral problems with committing evil acts on other humans, you still find yourself on that slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? You admitted you would kill innocent people to get the answers you needed.

The fact is for you, there is no line. No matter what is done, if its for the 'greater good' you will do it. Spying on people, torturing people and even murder are acceptable practices in your ideal government. The problem is we live in the United States of America. Freedom is more important than life. We do not murder innocent people, we do not torture. We respect individuals.

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By your reasoning, no war has ever been justified. Where would the Nazis be now if the governments of the world agreed with you?

If you let a city die to save one baby, you have very little respect for human life.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Again, I am not asking that. I am asking if doing it AT ALL is inherently torture. Is tasering somebody once torture? It hurts like all Hell and is very scary.

That clears up nothing. It is just an assertion with a personal insult. Explain the differences if you really think they exist. You might as well have said nothing.

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I did explain the difference. Physical and psychological discomfort is not torture. Extreme physical and psychological pain is. I am not sure how I can explain it any more clear that that. Nearly everyone else in the world grasps the concept with easy.

Drowning someone isn't a mild discomfort. And no matter how bad your court case is going, its not extreme psychological abuse. We all know this. So stop trying to make silly arguments. I know your doing it on purpose. You are knowingly admitting the extreme part of it and comparing it to mild stuff. Lets atleast trying to be intellectually honest here.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Half a world away? Wrong. They have cells here. The ones who are half a world away can get here in a hurry. Protecting our country from crimes against our humanity is an enormous priority. If we did not recognize that priority, you would be either dead or in an Islamic or other fascist state by now. You take so much for granted and seem to have no Earthly idea what people are going through to keep you safe from the large organizations who seek and work to make Americans extinct. They do exist.

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That is just fear mongering. Had we done nothing at all after 9/11, there is still no way in hell they would have conquered the US and made us into an Islamic fascist state. That is just stupid. Chances are even if they did succeeded in a few more attacks, I would still be alive and in perfect health. Though there are no attacks, and it has nothing to do with the fact that we torture people.

If you think terrorists could actually make Americans go extinct, it only shows that you have no bases in reality. Sure we can argue about if they are a threat or if they are not. But the idea that they are such a threat they could wipe us out? That is beyond debate, it simply isn't true at all. And there has never been any proof or even hints to support this idea.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

By your reasoning, no war has ever been justified. Where would the Nazis be now if the governments of the world agreed with you?

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That is just another emotional argument, and it doesn't even have anything to do with the topic at hand. Since I never said war could never be justified. I clearly stated that torturing and murdering innocent people could never be justified.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

If you let a city die to save one baby, you have very little respect for human life.

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We weren't talking about letting a city die to save a baby. We were talking about torturing a baby to death to save a city. There is a big difference. Putting an entire city at risk to save one person is irresponsible. Murdering an innocent person to help others however is cruel and evil.

There is a clear line here. You never torture people. It really is that simple. Can you really live with yourself knowing that your only alive because someone tortured and murdered innocent people to save you?

I have a very high respect for human life. High enough that I would rather die, than torture an innocent person.

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Originally Posted by Alric

I did explain the difference. Physical and psychological discomfort is not torture. Extreme physical and psychological pain is. I am not sure how I can explain it any more clear that that. Nearly everyone else in the world grasps the concept with easy.

Drowning someone isn't a mild discomfort. And no matter how bad your court case is going, its not extreme psychological abuse. We all know this. So stop trying to make silly arguments. I know your doing it on purpose. You are knowingly admitting the extreme part of it and comparing it to mild stuff. Lets atleast trying to be intellectually honest here.

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Do you have any idea what criminal defendants go through during trials? Do some research. Also, I said that being forced to get up early in the morning is physically awful for some people. So, getting up early in the morning to go to trial is extreme for some people.

The difference I asked you to explain is the difference between the levels of discomfort. You keep saying stuff like, "You know it. You're just saying that to aruge. Everybody knows..." It is worthless.

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Originally Posted by Alric

That is just fear mongering. Had we done nothing at all after 9/11, there is still no way in hell they would have conquered the US and made us into an Islamic fascist state. That is just stupid. Chances are even if they did succeeded in a few more attacks, I would still be alive and in perfect health. Though there are no attacks, and it has nothing to do with the fact that we torture people.

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I don't think you understand the concept of doing nothing. We have never come close to doing nothing when faced with threats. If we ever did, we would be taken over by those who DO IN FACT seek to take us over. They do exist. Study how the world works.

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Originally Posted by Alric

If you think terrorists could actually make Americans go extinct, it only shows that you have no bases in reality. Sure we can argue about if they are a threat or if they are not. But the idea that they are such a threat they could wipe us out? That is beyond debate, it simply isn't true at all. And there has never been any proof or even hints to support this idea.

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I said they seek to do it. That quest could have extremely fucked up results. Think. Also, if we ever really did nothing, they would wipe us out.

(I have to go. To be continued...)

Some of the arguments you make are very childish..

Oh my god, a criminal defendant have to get up early! That is torture!! :lol:

Waterboarding is torture! How can you even discuss about such a thing?!

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Originally Posted by Alric

IThat is just another emotional argument, and it doesn't even have anything to do with the topic at hand. Since I never said war could never be justified. I clearly stated that torturing and murdering innocent people could never be justified.

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Emotional my ass. You said that it is never justifiable to kill people to save a greater number of people, which has happened in every war ever fought. It is impossible to avoid killing civilians in a war, yet sometimes war is justified.

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Originally Posted by Alric

IWe weren't talking about letting a city die to save a baby. We were talking about torturing a baby to death to save a city. There is a big difference. Putting an entire city at risk to save one person is irresponsible. Murdering an innocent person to help others however is cruel and evil.

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Oh, you were talking about merely hurting the baby? Yet you said you are against doing it to save a city? Then you don't respect human life.

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Originally Posted by Alric

There is a clear line here. You never torture people. It really is that simple. Can you really live with yourself knowing that your only alive because someone tortured and murdered innocent people to save you?

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Innocent? I support waterboarding known terrorist leaders. However, if torturing an innocent person is what it takes to save a city, then unfortunately the innocent person has to be tortured. Think about how much more horrific the alternative is.

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Originally Posted by Alric

I have a very high respect for human life. High enough that I would rather die, than torture an innocent person.

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You would also rather a city die, so you say. Actually, I don't think you would really feel the way you say you do if you were ever faced with the situation in real life. I think you would torture somebody to save a city.

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Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

Some of the arguments you make are very childish..

Oh my god, a criminal defendant have to get up early! That is torture!!

Waterboarding is torture! How can you even discuss about such a thing?!

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Wow, assertions. What an effective way to argue, especially when you throw in the strawman factor. Getting up early hurts like a bitch for some people. What you left out of the picture is the absolute horror of a criminal trial. Study up on it.

They could never wipe us out. They do not have the weapons nor the man power to even attempt such a thing. That is a ridiculous claim. The fact is terrorism is really a minor threat to our lives. People are far more worried about losing their job than being attacked by terrorists, and they should be. The chances of being attack are slim to none, while there is a very real chance they could lose their job in this economy.

If you think being woken up early in the morning is torture then this conversation is pretty much over. You are so far gone you do not even living in reality anymore.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Getting up early hurts like a bitch for some people.

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:bowdown: Thanks for keeping this thread entertaining. LMAO. :bowdown:

You should come play here: http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=78700

Philosophically, I would have to agree that torture, at times, is justifiable. Its simply a question of mathmatics. However, in the case of the war on terror, torture can never be an answer. The only real answer to terrorism is to deal with the legitimate greivances of the Islamic world. Torturing the leaders of terrorist organisations will not remove the hate, the anger and the feelings of mistreatment harboured by the thousands of individuals in the Middle East and else where in the Islamic world that provide the recruiment base for terrorist organisations.

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Originally Posted by Alric

They could never wipe us out. They do not have the weapons nor the man power to even attempt such a thing. That is a ridiculous claim. The fact is terrorism is really a minor threat to our lives. People are far more worried about losing their job than being attacked by terrorists, and they should be. The chances of being attack are slim to none, while there is a very real chance they could lose their job in this economy.

If you think being woken up early in the morning is torture then this conversation is pretty much over. You are so far gone you do not even living in reality anymore.

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Counter the counterpoints I have already made or else drop it. You quit debating a few posts ago.

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Originally Posted by aaronasterling

:bowdown: Thanks for keeping this thread entertaining. LMAO. :bowdown:

You should come play here: http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=78700

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You should make an argument. You haven't even so much as said that my point is false. What I said is a fact. Now couple the physical pain, which parallels the general PHYSICAL pain of waterboarding, with the extreme horror of a criminal trial. Then voila... a parallel to waterboarding. If you can't counter that point, don't waste thread space. You are spinning your wheels in the mud and acting like a 12 year old who thinks he's cool because he threw out an empty insult. Let's see what you've got. I haven't seen it yet.

Would anybody like to actually debate?

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

You should make an argument. .... Let's see what you've got. I haven't seen it yet.

Would anybody like to actually debate?

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I made my point a few posts ago. All I have to add is that you are on the one hand arguing that waterboarding is not torture and on the other arguing that torture is ok to justify waterboarding. Am I reading that wrong?

Other then that, I'll just state my belief that militancy is a big part of what created the 'terrorism' problem (in absence of a good definition, i should put it in quotes) and that we should drop it and help people in the middle east overthrow their totalitarian governments instead of helping to support dictatorships. I'm more interested in you as a debater then I am in this particular topic. And it wasn't an insult. I would genuinely like to pick the brain of the man that cooked up the the sentence I quoted. Seems to me that no minds are going to be changed here. I'll let you get back to it.

I would be happy to counter your points, had you actually made any. As I said, saying that waking up early is torture simply makes no sense. You have no argument so you make ridiculous claims to throw the topic off track.

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Originally Posted by Alric

I would be happy to counter your points, had you actually made any. As I said, saying that waking up early is torture simply makes no sense. You have no argument so you make ridiculous claims to throw the topic off track.

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Not any news, pal, believe me on this one.


So basically UM is indirectly saying he's in favour of torture. Saying you have "a choice" to stop the torture, if you give them what they want. That is the exact definition of torture.

Jeez, I imagine that guy in the government. He'd kill his own mother for the sake of "public safety".

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Originally Posted by Kromoh

Not any news, pal, believe me on this one.


So basically UM is indirectly saying he's in favour of torture. Saying you have "a choice" to stop the torture, if you give them what they want. That is the exact definition of torture.

Jeez, I imagine that guy in the government. He'd kill his own mother for the sake of "public safety".

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No, I would not kill my own mother to save a city even though it would be the moral thing to do. I don't have it in me to kill my mother, even if she were trying to kill me. However, it is what I should do if it is what it takes to save a city. It is just a neurological impossibility.

Everybody check out this thread. It very much relates to what we are talking about.

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=77682

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

No, I would not kill my own mother to save a city even though it would be the moral thing to do.

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Been reading The Prince, have you? There's really no 'moral thing to do'. Fact observed throughout the ages.

Also, I didn't say "to save a city", I said "for the sake of 'public safety'".

I just read the Trolley Problem thread. It seems to me criminal trials, whatever else you mentioned, etc are analogous to the trolley problem while torture is similar to the foot-bridge problem. Just something I noticed.

EDIT: trolley problem
foot-bridge problem

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Originally Posted by Kromoh

Been reading The Prince, have you? There's really no 'moral thing to do'. Fact observed throughout the ages.

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The Prince? No, I haven't read it. There is a "moral" thing to do, as long as there is a definition of the word. It ties into good vs. evil, which involves the elements of innocence and necessity. I don't think there is a morality law of the universe, and you know I'm an atheist, but within human social contract and definitions of innocence and victimization, there is such a thing as morality.

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Originally Posted by Kromoh

Also, I didn't say "to save a city", I said "for the sake of 'public safety'".

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If you were not talking about saving the city, then what did you mean? It sounds like you are just making stuff up, which is not unusual for you.

You expressed agreement with Alric's point that I did not even make an argument concerning getting up early for trial. Do I need to state it again? Waterboarding involves a certain degree of physical pain plus an extreme amount of emotional pain. Well, for some people, getting up early in the morning is very physically painful (I am one of them. It can be absolutely awful. You probably know others like that.), and a criminal trial scares the ever living Hell out of people. ("My heart was beating like I was on crack every day in that court room." - Snoop Dogg, an L.A. gang member, not some regular little punk) So, getting up early in jail and going to trial parallels waterboarding in the way that it involves physical pain (for some) plus panic attack from Hell. That is how criminal trials parallel waterboarding.

There you go. THAT is my argument. Don't keep pretending it is not there. If you (or anybody) have a counterargument, go for it.

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Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

I just read the Trolley Problem thread. It seems to me criminal trials, whatever else you mentioned, etc are analogous to the trolley problem while torture is similar to the foot-bridge problem. Just something I noticed.

EDIT: trolley problem

foot-bridge problem

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How do you figure?

Unless you have a serious health issue, getting up early isn't painful. I have never seen a person who would rather get punched in the face than wake up early, because waking up early was more painful. However most people would rather be punched in the face than water boarded, because getting water boarded is far more painful.

A child might thrown a tantrum but I never seen an adult scream or cry out in pain because they were waken early. The fact is waking up early is never painful, at all. Not even remotely so. Unless like I said, you have a serious medical condition to start with. So comparing the two is ridiculous.

As for a criminal trail, you may be scared but its still not even close. How can you compare being drowned to sitting in court? People are scared of public speaking too, but speaking in public isn't torture.

Court is designed to get to the truth of what happened, its not designed to terrorize a person. Court is a good thing, its there to help you. So you don't get arrested for things you didn't do. I am pretty sure, no person is ever going to say, I would rather be shot than face court again. Yet if your suffering through water boarding over and over, people may just say that.

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Originally Posted by Alric

Unless you have a serious health issue, getting up early isn't painful. I have never seen a person who would rather get punched in the face than wake up early, because waking up early was more painful. However most people would rather be punched in the face than water boarded, because getting water boarded is far more painful.

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Some people's biological rhythms have them naturally on a sleep late and stay up late schedule, and breaking it is a real bitch. Besides, some criminal defendants have serious health issues.

I would rather be waterboarded than hit in the face, as long as I can know that I am not really going to be drowned. The real bitch about waterboarding, in most cases, is the fear of drowning, not the physical pain.

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Originally Posted by Alric

A child might thrown a tantrum but I never seen an adult scream or cry out in pain because they were waken early. The fact is waking up early is never painful, at all. Not even remotely so. Unless like I said, you have a serious medical condition to start with. So comparing the two is ridiculous.

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I bet you know some adults who have absolutely refused to go to work or class because getting out of bed was just out of the question.

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Originally Posted by Alric

As for a criminal trail, you may be scared but its still not even close. How can you compare being drowned to sitting in court? People are scared of public speaking too, but speaking in public isn't torture.

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The fear a defendant has in a criminal trial is "extreme" and "unbearable" in many cases.

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Originally Posted by Alric

Court is designed to get to the truth of what happened, its not designed to terrorize a person. Court is a good thing, its there to help you. So you don't get arrested for things you didn't do. I am pretty sure, no person is ever going to say, I would rather be shot than face court again. Yet if your suffering through water boarding over and over, people may just say that.

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But criminal court does terrorize a person.

I doubt anybody would rather be shot than waterboarded. People would rather die than be threatened with death? :?

Didn't you watch the videos and go to the links the other people gave? Even if you know your not going to die, you still think your going to die when water boarded. Its not like your thinking "Oh I am going to die" And your scared. Its a physical response you get from water entering your lungs, where your practically drowning. Even the military people trained to resist it, couldn't last that long against it. I dont see how you can compare that to waking up early.

People are lazy. Being lazy and not wanting to get up to work is nothing like being tortured. Comparing water boarding to waking up early only makes you look clueless.

The fact that you can die from water boarding, pretty much shows how much worse it is. Drowning to death is not a pleasant way to go. Comparing that to sleeping. Its ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Alric

People are lazy. Being lazy and not wanting to get up to work is nothing like being tortured. Comparing water boarding to waking up early only makes you look clueless.

The fact that you can die from water boarding, pretty much shows how much worse it is. Drowning to death is not a pleasant way to go. Comparing that to sleeping. Its ridiculous.

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Again.... It's not getting up early by itself. It's the combination of getting up early when it is a real son of a bitch and going to your criminal trial. It is the combination I am talking about.

Criminal court causes heart attacks for some people, and heart attacks can kill. The mayor of Jackson, Frank Melton, died of a heart attack a few weeks ago. His criminal trial (for destroying a crack house) was about to start. He was wigged out of his mind.

I want to say again that I am not for waterboarding just any suspect. Waterboarding is Hell. There should be an extremely high standard of cause for it. Waterboarding is a nightmare, and it is assault, but if we classify it as torture, there is plenty of other necessary stuff we need to classify as torture.

People have panic attacks while flying on airplanes. That doesn't mean flying on airplanes is considered torture. The majority of people deal with all that stuff very well. Besides he didn't die from a heart attack from going to court. He had a long history of serious heart problems. If you are going to blame stress for the heart attack, then the stress came from political issues not from the court terrorizing him.

I dont see how you can claim its hell and assault and at the same time claim it isn't torture. Why don't you just admit what it is. It is torture. If you believe so strongly in it, then you should be happy to admit that your for torturing people in case of terrorism.

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Originally Posted by Alric

People have panic attacks while flying on airplanes. That doesn't mean flying on airplanes is considered torture.

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Exactly.