Thread: "Absolutely torture."

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

That does not answer my question. Is tasering somebody at all when they resist arrest "torture"?

If you do it more than once then yes it is. Seeing as how a person can't resist after being tasered, using it more than once is torture, and the police get sued over it often. In general, one shock isn't torture though. Its less harmful than having to punch them in the face to get them to stop.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Why is it not torture if they just work until they feel physical pain while being scared because they are in prison?




They have to get up very early in the morning while they are in jail. That is awful for some people. Also, criminal trial is an emotional horror story... that goes on for days to months. The emotional aspect of waterboarding is what makes it suck so bad.

Look up torture.
1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty. 2. a method of inflicting such pain. 3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone. 4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony. 5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.
Torture is extreme, severe and excruciating pain. None of the examples you listed are anything even remotely severe in any way at all. Water boarding is severe and extreme. Hence the reason it is torture, why sitting in a court room for a month is not. Which you already knew.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I never asked that. I asked why the outrage is disproportionate to the outrage toward the terrorists.

If there are evil people in our government who would commit crimes against humanity, they are our first priority not terrorists who are half a world away.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Yes, I would crush the baby's head if I thought doing so would save an entire city. Would you let a whole city (thousands of babies included) die to save one baby?

Have you read the Trolley thread in the Philosophy forum?

Yes I would. Torturing and murdering people to protect other is wrong. Torturing and murdering is always wrong. Even if you remove the horrible moral problems with committing evil acts on other humans, you still find yourself on that slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? You admitted you would kill innocent people to get the answers you needed.

The fact is for you, there is no line. No matter what is done, if its for the 'greater good' you will do it. Spying on people, torturing people and even murder are acceptable practices in your ideal government. The problem is we live in the United States of America. Freedom is more important than life. We do not murder innocent people, we do not torture. We respect individuals.

Originally Posted by Alric

If you do it more than once then yes it is. Seeing as how a person can't resist after being tasered, using it more than once is torture, and the police get sued over it often. In general, one shock isn't torture though. Its less harmful than having to punch them in the face to get them to stop.

Again, I am not asking that. I am asking if doing it AT ALL is inherently torture. Is tasering somebody once torture? It hurts like all Hell and is very scary.

Originally Posted by Alric

Look up torture.
1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty. 2. a method of inflicting such pain. 3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone. 4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony. 5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.
Torture is extreme, severe and excruciating pain. None of the examples you listed are anything even remotely severe in any way at all. Water boarding is severe and extreme. Hence the reason it is torture, why sitting in a court room for a month is not. Which you already knew.

That clears up nothing. It is just an assertion with a personal insult. Explain the differences if you really think they exist. You might as well have said nothing.

Originally Posted by Alric

If there are evil people in our government who would commit crimes against humanity, they are our first priority not terrorists who are half a world away.

Half a world away? Wrong. They have cells here. The ones who are half a world away can get here in a hurry. Protecting our country from crimes against our humanity is an enormous priority. If we did not recognize that priority, you would be either dead or in an Islamic or other fascist state by now. You take so much for granted and seem to have no Earthly idea what people are going through to keep you safe from the large organizations who seek and work to make Americans extinct. They do exist.

Originally Posted by Alric

Yes I would. Torturing and murdering people to protect other is wrong. Torturing and murdering is always wrong. Even if you remove the horrible moral problems with committing evil acts on other humans, you still find yourself on that slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? You admitted you would kill innocent people to get the answers you needed.

The fact is for you, there is no line. No matter what is done, if its for the 'greater good' you will do it. Spying on people, torturing people and even murder are acceptable practices in your ideal government. The problem is we live in the United States of America. Freedom is more important than life. We do not murder innocent people, we do not torture. We respect individuals.

By your reasoning, no war has ever been justified. Where would the Nazis be now if the governments of the world agreed with you?

If you let a city die to save one baby, you have very little respect for human life.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Again, I am not asking that. I am asking if doing it AT ALL is inherently torture. Is tasering somebody once torture? It hurts like all Hell and is very scary.

That clears up nothing. It is just an assertion with a personal insult. Explain the differences if you really think they exist. You might as well have said nothing.

I did explain the difference. Physical and psychological discomfort is not torture. Extreme physical and psychological pain is. I am not sure how I can explain it any more clear that that. Nearly everyone else in the world grasps the concept with easy.

Drowning someone isn't a mild discomfort. And no matter how bad your court case is going, its not extreme psychological abuse. We all know this. So stop trying to make silly arguments. I know your doing it on purpose. You are knowingly admitting the extreme part of it and comparing it to mild stuff. Lets atleast trying to be intellectually honest here.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Half a world away? Wrong. They have cells here. The ones who are half a world away can get here in a hurry. Protecting our country from crimes against our humanity is an enormous priority. If we did not recognize that priority, you would be either dead or in an Islamic or other fascist state by now. You take so much for granted and seem to have no Earthly idea what people are going through to keep you safe from the large organizations who seek and work to make Americans extinct. They do exist.

That is just fear mongering. Had we done nothing at all after 9/11, there is still no way in hell they would have conquered the US and made us into an Islamic fascist state. That is just stupid. Chances are even if they did succeeded in a few more attacks, I would still be alive and in perfect health. Though there are no attacks, and it has nothing to do with the fact that we torture people.

If you think terrorists could actually make Americans go extinct, it only shows that you have no bases in reality. Sure we can argue about if they are a threat or if they are not. But the idea that they are such a threat they could wipe us out? That is beyond debate, it simply isn't true at all. And there has never been any proof or even hints to support this idea.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

By your reasoning, no war has ever been justified. Where would the Nazis be now if the governments of the world agreed with you?

That is just another emotional argument, and it doesn't even have anything to do with the topic at hand. Since I never said war could never be justified. I clearly stated that torturing and murdering innocent people could never be justified.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

If you let a city die to save one baby, you have very little respect for human life.

We weren't talking about letting a city die to save a baby. We were talking about torturing a baby to death to save a city. There is a big difference. Putting an entire city at risk to save one person is irresponsible. Murdering an innocent person to help others however is cruel and evil.

There is a clear line here. You never torture people. It really is that simple. Can you really live with yourself knowing that your only alive because someone tortured and murdered innocent people to save you?

I have a very high respect for human life. High enough that I would rather die, than torture an innocent person.

Originally Posted by Alric

I did explain the difference. Physical and psychological discomfort is not torture. Extreme physical and psychological pain is. I am not sure how I can explain it any more clear that that. Nearly everyone else in the world grasps the concept with easy.

Drowning someone isn't a mild discomfort. And no matter how bad your court case is going, its not extreme psychological abuse. We all know this. So stop trying to make silly arguments. I know your doing it on purpose. You are knowingly admitting the extreme part of it and comparing it to mild stuff. Lets atleast trying to be intellectually honest here.

Do you have any idea what criminal defendants go through during trials? Do some research. Also, I said that being forced to get up early in the morning is physically awful for some people. So, getting up early in the morning to go to trial is extreme for some people.

The difference I asked you to explain is the difference between the levels of discomfort. You keep saying stuff like, "You know it. You're just saying that to aruge. Everybody knows..." It is worthless.

Originally Posted by Alric

That is just fear mongering. Had we done nothing at all after 9/11, there is still no way in hell they would have conquered the US and made us into an Islamic fascist state. That is just stupid. Chances are even if they did succeeded in a few more attacks, I would still be alive and in perfect health. Though there are no attacks, and it has nothing to do with the fact that we torture people.

I don't think you understand the concept of doing nothing. We have never come close to doing nothing when faced with threats. If we ever did, we would be taken over by those who DO IN FACT seek to take us over. They do exist. Study how the world works.

Originally Posted by Alric

If you think terrorists could actually make Americans go extinct, it only shows that you have no bases in reality. Sure we can argue about if they are a threat or if they are not. But the idea that they are such a threat they could wipe us out? That is beyond debate, it simply isn't true at all. And there has never been any proof or even hints to support this idea.

I said they seek to do it. That quest could have extremely fucked up results. Think. Also, if we ever really did nothing, they would wipe us out.

(I have to go. To be continued...)

Some of the arguments you make are very childish..

Oh my god, a criminal defendant have to get up early! That is torture!!

Waterboarding is torture! How can you even discuss about such a thing?!

Originally Posted by Alric

IThat is just another emotional argument, and it doesn't even have anything to do with the topic at hand. Since I never said war could never be justified. I clearly stated that torturing and murdering innocent people could never be justified.

Emotional my ass. You said that it is never justifiable to kill people to save a greater number of people, which has happened in every war ever fought. It is impossible to avoid killing civilians in a war, yet sometimes war is justified.

Originally Posted by Alric

IWe weren't talking about letting a city die to save a baby. We were talking about torturing a baby to death to save a city. There is a big difference. Putting an entire city at risk to save one person is irresponsible. Murdering an innocent person to help others however is cruel and evil.

Oh, you were talking about merely hurting the baby? Yet you said you are against doing it to save a city? Then you don't respect human life.

Originally Posted by Alric

There is a clear line here. You never torture people. It really is that simple. Can you really live with yourself knowing that your only alive because someone tortured and murdered innocent people to save you?

Innocent? I support waterboarding known terrorist leaders. However, if torturing an innocent person is what it takes to save a city, then unfortunately the innocent person has to be tortured. Think about how much more horrific the alternative is.

Originally Posted by Alric

I have a very high respect for human life. High enough that I would rather die, than torture an innocent person.

You would also rather a city die, so you say. Actually, I don't think you would really feel the way you say you do if you were ever faced with the situation in real life. I think you would torture somebody to save a city.

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

Some of the arguments you make are very childish..

Oh my god, a criminal defendant have to get up early! That is torture!!

Waterboarding is torture! How can you even discuss about such a thing?!

Wow, assertions. What an effective way to argue, especially when you throw in the strawman factor. Getting up early hurts like a bitch for some people. What you left out of the picture is the absolute horror of a criminal trial. Study up on it.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Getting up early hurts like a bitch for some people.

Thanks for keeping this thread entertaining. LMAO.

You should come play here: http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=78700

They could never wipe us out. They do not have the weapons nor the man power to even attempt such a thing. That is a ridiculous claim. The fact is terrorism is really a minor threat to our lives. People are far more worried about losing their job than being attacked by terrorists, and they should be. The chances of being attack are slim to none, while there is a very real chance they could lose their job in this economy.

If you think being woken up early in the morning is torture then this conversation is pretty much over. You are so far gone you do not even living in reality anymore.

Originally Posted by Alric

They could never wipe us out. They do not have the weapons nor the man power to even attempt such a thing. That is a ridiculous claim. The fact is terrorism is really a minor threat to our lives. People are far more worried about losing their job than being attacked by terrorists, and they should be. The chances of being attack are slim to none, while there is a very real chance they could lose their job in this economy.

If you think being woken up early in the morning is torture then this conversation is pretty much over. You are so far gone you do not even living in reality anymore.

Counter the counterpoints I have already made or else drop it. You quit debating a few posts ago.

Originally Posted by aaronasterling

Thanks for keeping this thread entertaining. LMAO.

You should come play here: http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=78700

You should make an argument. You haven't even so much as said that my point is false. What I said is a fact. Now couple the physical pain, which parallels the general PHYSICAL pain of waterboarding, with the extreme horror of a criminal trial. Then voila... a parallel to waterboarding. If you can't counter that point, don't waste thread space. You are spinning your wheels in the mud and acting like a 12 year old who thinks he's cool because he threw out an empty insult. Let's see what you've got. I haven't seen it yet.

Would anybody like to actually debate?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

You should make an argument. .... Let's see what you've got. I haven't seen it yet.

Would anybody like to actually debate?

I made my point a few posts ago. All I have to add is that you are on the one hand arguing that waterboarding is not torture and on the other arguing that torture is ok to justify waterboarding. Am I reading that wrong?

Other then that, I'll just state my belief that militancy is a big part of what created the 'terrorism' problem (in absence of a good definition, i should put it in quotes) and that we should drop it and help people in the middle east overthrow their totalitarian governments instead of helping to support dictatorships. I'm more interested in you as a debater then I am in this particular topic. And it wasn't an insult. I would genuinely like to pick the brain of the man that cooked up the the sentence I quoted. Seems to me that no minds are going to be changed here. I'll let you get back to it.

Originally Posted by Alric

I have a very high respect for human life. High enough that I would rather die, than torture an innocent person.

You are sweet. I wish there were more people like you in the world