Thread: "Absolutely torture."

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Again, I am not asking that. I am asking if doing it AT ALL is inherently torture. Is tasering somebody once torture? It hurts like all Hell and is very scary.

That clears up nothing. It is just an assertion with a personal insult. Explain the differences if you really think they exist. You might as well have said nothing.

I did explain the difference. Physical and psychological discomfort is not torture. Extreme physical and psychological pain is. I am not sure how I can explain it any more clear that that. Nearly everyone else in the world grasps the concept with easy.

Drowning someone isn't a mild discomfort. And no matter how bad your court case is going, its not extreme psychological abuse. We all know this. So stop trying to make silly arguments. I know your doing it on purpose. You are knowingly admitting the extreme part of it and comparing it to mild stuff. Lets atleast trying to be intellectually honest here.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Half a world away? Wrong. They have cells here. The ones who are half a world away can get here in a hurry. Protecting our country from crimes against our humanity is an enormous priority. If we did not recognize that priority, you would be either dead or in an Islamic or other fascist state by now. You take so much for granted and seem to have no Earthly idea what people are going through to keep you safe from the large organizations who seek and work to make Americans extinct. They do exist.

That is just fear mongering. Had we done nothing at all after 9/11, there is still no way in hell they would have conquered the US and made us into an Islamic fascist state. That is just stupid. Chances are even if they did succeeded in a few more attacks, I would still be alive and in perfect health. Though there are no attacks, and it has nothing to do with the fact that we torture people.

If you think terrorists could actually make Americans go extinct, it only shows that you have no bases in reality. Sure we can argue about if they are a threat or if they are not. But the idea that they are such a threat they could wipe us out? That is beyond debate, it simply isn't true at all. And there has never been any proof or even hints to support this idea.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

By your reasoning, no war has ever been justified. Where would the Nazis be now if the governments of the world agreed with you?

That is just another emotional argument, and it doesn't even have anything to do with the topic at hand. Since I never said war could never be justified. I clearly stated that torturing and murdering innocent people could never be justified.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

If you let a city die to save one baby, you have very little respect for human life.

We weren't talking about letting a city die to save a baby. We were talking about torturing a baby to death to save a city. There is a big difference. Putting an entire city at risk to save one person is irresponsible. Murdering an innocent person to help others however is cruel and evil.

There is a clear line here. You never torture people. It really is that simple. Can you really live with yourself knowing that your only alive because someone tortured and murdered innocent people to save you?

I have a very high respect for human life. High enough that I would rather die, than torture an innocent person.

Originally Posted by Alric

I did explain the difference. Physical and psychological discomfort is not torture. Extreme physical and psychological pain is. I am not sure how I can explain it any more clear that that. Nearly everyone else in the world grasps the concept with easy.

Drowning someone isn't a mild discomfort. And no matter how bad your court case is going, its not extreme psychological abuse. We all know this. So stop trying to make silly arguments. I know your doing it on purpose. You are knowingly admitting the extreme part of it and comparing it to mild stuff. Lets atleast trying to be intellectually honest here.

Do you have any idea what criminal defendants go through during trials? Do some research. Also, I said that being forced to get up early in the morning is physically awful for some people. So, getting up early in the morning to go to trial is extreme for some people.

The difference I asked you to explain is the difference between the levels of discomfort. You keep saying stuff like, "You know it. You're just saying that to aruge. Everybody knows..." It is worthless.

Originally Posted by Alric

That is just fear mongering. Had we done nothing at all after 9/11, there is still no way in hell they would have conquered the US and made us into an Islamic fascist state. That is just stupid. Chances are even if they did succeeded in a few more attacks, I would still be alive and in perfect health. Though there are no attacks, and it has nothing to do with the fact that we torture people.

I don't think you understand the concept of doing nothing. We have never come close to doing nothing when faced with threats. If we ever did, we would be taken over by those who DO IN FACT seek to take us over. They do exist. Study how the world works.

Originally Posted by Alric

If you think terrorists could actually make Americans go extinct, it only shows that you have no bases in reality. Sure we can argue about if they are a threat or if they are not. But the idea that they are such a threat they could wipe us out? That is beyond debate, it simply isn't true at all. And there has never been any proof or even hints to support this idea.

I said they seek to do it. That quest could have extremely fucked up results. Think. Also, if we ever really did nothing, they would wipe us out.

(I have to go. To be continued...)

Some of the arguments you make are very childish..

Oh my god, a criminal defendant have to get up early! That is torture!!

Waterboarding is torture! How can you even discuss about such a thing?!

Originally Posted by Alric

IThat is just another emotional argument, and it doesn't even have anything to do with the topic at hand. Since I never said war could never be justified. I clearly stated that torturing and murdering innocent people could never be justified.

Emotional my ass. You said that it is never justifiable to kill people to save a greater number of people, which has happened in every war ever fought. It is impossible to avoid killing civilians in a war, yet sometimes war is justified.

Originally Posted by Alric

IWe weren't talking about letting a city die to save a baby. We were talking about torturing a baby to death to save a city. There is a big difference. Putting an entire city at risk to save one person is irresponsible. Murdering an innocent person to help others however is cruel and evil.

Oh, you were talking about merely hurting the baby? Yet you said you are against doing it to save a city? Then you don't respect human life.

Originally Posted by Alric

There is a clear line here. You never torture people. It really is that simple. Can you really live with yourself knowing that your only alive because someone tortured and murdered innocent people to save you?

Innocent? I support waterboarding known terrorist leaders. However, if torturing an innocent person is what it takes to save a city, then unfortunately the innocent person has to be tortured. Think about how much more horrific the alternative is.

Originally Posted by Alric

I have a very high respect for human life. High enough that I would rather die, than torture an innocent person.

You would also rather a city die, so you say. Actually, I don't think you would really feel the way you say you do if you were ever faced with the situation in real life. I think you would torture somebody to save a city.

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

Some of the arguments you make are very childish..

Oh my god, a criminal defendant have to get up early! That is torture!!

Waterboarding is torture! How can you even discuss about such a thing?!

Wow, assertions. What an effective way to argue, especially when you throw in the strawman factor. Getting up early hurts like a bitch for some people. What you left out of the picture is the absolute horror of a criminal trial. Study up on it.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Getting up early hurts like a bitch for some people.

Thanks for keeping this thread entertaining. LMAO.

You should come play here: http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=78700

Philosophically, I would have to agree that torture, at times, is justifiable. Its simply a question of mathmatics. However, in the case of the war on terror, torture can never be an answer. The only real answer to terrorism is to deal with the legitimate greivances of the Islamic world. Torturing the leaders of terrorist organisations will not remove the hate, the anger and the feelings of mistreatment harboured by the thousands of individuals in the Middle East and else where in the Islamic world that provide the recruiment base for terrorist organisations.

They could never wipe us out. They do not have the weapons nor the man power to even attempt such a thing. That is a ridiculous claim. The fact is terrorism is really a minor threat to our lives. People are far more worried about losing their job than being attacked by terrorists, and they should be. The chances of being attack are slim to none, while there is a very real chance they could lose their job in this economy.

If you think being woken up early in the morning is torture then this conversation is pretty much over. You are so far gone you do not even living in reality anymore.

Originally Posted by Alric

They could never wipe us out. They do not have the weapons nor the man power to even attempt such a thing. That is a ridiculous claim. The fact is terrorism is really a minor threat to our lives. People are far more worried about losing their job than being attacked by terrorists, and they should be. The chances of being attack are slim to none, while there is a very real chance they could lose their job in this economy.

If you think being woken up early in the morning is torture then this conversation is pretty much over. You are so far gone you do not even living in reality anymore.

Counter the counterpoints I have already made or else drop it. You quit debating a few posts ago.

Originally Posted by aaronasterling

Thanks for keeping this thread entertaining. LMAO.

You should come play here: http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=78700

You should make an argument. You haven't even so much as said that my point is false. What I said is a fact. Now couple the physical pain, which parallels the general PHYSICAL pain of waterboarding, with the extreme horror of a criminal trial. Then voila... a parallel to waterboarding. If you can't counter that point, don't waste thread space. You are spinning your wheels in the mud and acting like a 12 year old who thinks he's cool because he threw out an empty insult. Let's see what you've got. I haven't seen it yet.

Would anybody like to actually debate?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

You should make an argument. .... Let's see what you've got. I haven't seen it yet.

Would anybody like to actually debate?

I made my point a few posts ago. All I have to add is that you are on the one hand arguing that waterboarding is not torture and on the other arguing that torture is ok to justify waterboarding. Am I reading that wrong?

Other then that, I'll just state my belief that militancy is a big part of what created the 'terrorism' problem (in absence of a good definition, i should put it in quotes) and that we should drop it and help people in the middle east overthrow their totalitarian governments instead of helping to support dictatorships. I'm more interested in you as a debater then I am in this particular topic. And it wasn't an insult. I would genuinely like to pick the brain of the man that cooked up the the sentence I quoted. Seems to me that no minds are going to be changed here. I'll let you get back to it.

I would be happy to counter your points, had you actually made any. As I said, saying that waking up early is torture simply makes no sense. You have no argument so you make ridiculous claims to throw the topic off track.

Originally Posted by Alric

I would be happy to counter your points, had you actually made any. As I said, saying that waking up early is torture simply makes no sense. You have no argument so you make ridiculous claims to throw the topic off track.

Not any news, pal, believe me on this one.


So basically UM is indirectly saying he's in favour of torture. Saying you have "a choice" to stop the torture, if you give them what they want. That is the exact definition of torture.

Jeez, I imagine that guy in the government. He'd kill his own mother for the sake of "public safety".

Originally Posted by Alric

I have a very high respect for human life. High enough that I would rather die, than torture an innocent person.

You are sweet. I wish there were more people like you in the world