Thread: "Absolutely torture."

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Why does the threat of arrest get people to talk? Why does the threat of prison get people to rat on drug dealers, even walk into the lion's den with a wire? Why does the threat of a traffic ticket make people drive more slowly than otherwise? Why do paddlings get most school kids acting right? Lots of major bummers are not "torture" but still can be used to control people.

Originally Posted by sleepingdog

an atom bomb is about to go off inside your house and is minutes away from blowing up the entire country. do you torture the guy who's got the code? if No, please stop here as you are dead. if Yes, thanks for saving my life, now please go plead guilty to breaking the law.

Personally, I end up with a butcher knife up the scum's ass and his face in an ant bed. The U.S. government, however, uses that politically correct, non-torture waterboarding stuff. What would you do in that situation? Everybody, what would you do in that situation??????

shanti shanti.

that's what the professionals are for. we'd never leave it up to you U mind (nor that muslim fellow)

edit; just saw how you say things are 'not torture' and still dodge ball what is torture. it's not quite hall of fame material, but we might be able to work a highlight.

Originally Posted by sleepingdog

shanti shanti.

that's what the professionals are for. we'd never leave it up to you U mind (nor that muslim fellow)

So, what should I do in that situation if it is all up to me? What would you do in that situation?????????? What should a "professional" do in that situation?

Originally Posted by sleepingdog

edit; just saw how you say things are 'not torture' and still dodge ball what is torture. it's not quite hall of fame material, but we might be able to work a highlight.

Stop lying. I have said several times what is and what is not torture. You can search under the words "extreme", "spectrum", and "boundary". Maybe I will make all of my posts in this thread reposts of my own quotes. This is getting really ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

So, what should I do in that situation if it is all up to me? What would you do in that situation?????????? What should a "professional" do in that situation?

first off, DONT PANIC!!!

another different test that you're not ready for...

your daughter is being held hostage and is likely being tortured and raped. you got one of the guys cornered and all tied up. he'll never talk to those wimpy cops, you know that. and he's likely to just walk away. do you A: turn him in anyway, and hope that the authorities can help you; or B: pull out your knife and make him talk. if you went with A, i wish you the best of luck. if you choose B, Congratulations! you are now a criminal! i hope this worked out for you somehow.

Originally Posted by sleepingdog

first off, DONT PANIC!!!

another different test that you're not ready for...

your daughter is being held hostage and is likely being tortured and raped. you got one of the guys cornered and all tied up. he'll never talk to those wimpy cops, you know that. and he's likely to just walk away. do you A: turn him in anyway, and hope that the authorities can help you; or B: pull out your knife and make him talk. if you went with A, i wish you the best of luck. if you choose B, Congratulations! you are now a criminal! i hope this worked out for you somehow.

I'd take the number B option..

Originally Posted by sleepingdog

first off, DONT PANIC!!!

That's it???????????????????????? Well, that should save the day.

I'll tell you what. I am going to give you another chance. If you give a real answer, I will delete this post and you can delete yours. I want to know what should be done in the scenario you described. It gets to the heart of the big issue. I want to know what you and others in here think about what should be done. It is easy to bitch about policy when you never offer solutions yourself. Tell me... What would you do, and what should a professional do? I really want to understand this. Give the best answer you can possibly give.

Originally Posted by sleepingdog

your daughter is being held hostage and is likely being tortured and raped. you got one of the guys cornered and all tied up. he'll never talk to those wimpy cops, you know that. and he's likely to just walk away. do you A: turn him in anyway, and hope that the authorities can help you; or B: pull out your knife and make him talk. if you went with A, i wish you the best of luck. if you choose B, Congratulations! you are now a criminal! i hope this worked out for you somehow.

I would of course choose B. Nobody who loves his daughter wouldn't choose B. What would you do???????????

dude, you're the one taking the test. don't ask me for the answer, i'll grade you later.

Originally Posted by sleepingdog

dude, you're the one taking the test. don't ask me for the answer, i'll grade you later.

Exactly. You don't have an answer. It is so convenient to rail on policies when you don't have a better solution or any other solution at all. Let me know when you are ready to join reality.

What would you do in that situation?????????? What should a "professional" do in that situation

damn U mind. you make a tough case. plus you seem so totally unable to make a decision. alright, i'll save your daughter for you. u owe me tho.

Originally Posted by sleepingdog

damn U mind. you make a tough case. alright, i'll save your daughter for you. u owe me tho.

Thanks. Please save other daughters too by not opposing waterboarding. (Well, I don't really have a daughter, but there are those who do.)

Oh I get it. So its torture when other countries do it, but when we do, its not torture? How does that work again? Because when we drown you, we do it with a smile on our face, so its nice?

As for it working, it doesn't. All the experts who know about it and stuff says it doesn't. The person will say anything to get out, and so its often very unreliable. They just say what they think you want to hear, not what is always true.

As for the terrorist leaders they got life saving information from, that's mostly propaganda. They don't tell you about all the stuff they lied about and all the time they wasted following false leads, or that most of the stuff they revealed was outdated and we already knew about. In fact, they wont even share most of the stuff with the public. Though I guess we are just supposed to believe the government, when they tell us they got a ton of stuff from them without any proof of it.

As for your most extreme, highly unlikely situation that never happens and probably never will. Well why don't just use what you said before? You know the threat of prison, and all the major 'bummers" that are used to control people. Why not use them to get the information from them? All studies have shown that interrogation techniques where you try to understand the person and what their goals are and then twisting that to your need is far superior than torture.

Why do so many people always jump to torture so quick, when it doesn't even work? To me it sounds like you are acting entirely out of emotion and not logical thought. The idea is to just cause the person you hate the most pain possible until you break them. At first you use a 'questionable' technique like water boarding and say its not really torture. But as you become more irrational and angry you go to the extreme and stab them in the ass with a knife and twist it around while having bugs bite the person on the face.

It's so easy to to leave your morals behind and act like a savage the more passionate you get on 'punishing' the people you hate so much. There is no question you hate them far beyond what is normal.

People with clearer heads are needed. Even if you wanted to argue that torture should be allowed in extreme cases, which I do not agree with. I still wouldn't agree that the terrorism we face today is an extreme case.

There has never been a threat of a terrorist blowing up a nuclear bomb any where on our land. Neither are the bomb threats as serious as you try to make people believe. If there was a 9/11 sized attack every year, for ten years it still wouldn't kill as many people who died in car accidents in just one year. And that was the biggest of the big. Happened once, and nothing else since then. Where is the threat?

Terrorism is not a major threat to us. We should not be breaking the law to harm them. We should not be sacrificing the moral fiber of our country for such stupid things. And we should never be commenting war crimes on other people. Not ever. What are we the nazi's now? I am sure you would be more than happy to gather up all the 'terrorists' and gas them wouldn't you?

Be honest with me now. Tell me the truth. If all the terrorist in the world were in one room together, you would kill them all and you would do it in the most painful way possible. Wouldn't you?

And to answer the question I know will come. No I wouldn't torture them to death. I wouldn't even kill them. I would arrest them.

Originally Posted by Alric

People with clearer heads are needed

that means U and I have to sit this one out. thanks Alric, we got sidetracked there.

Originally Posted by Alric

Oh I get it. So its torture when other countries do it, but when we do, its not torture? How does that work again? Because when we drown you, we do it with a smile on our face, so its nice?

Because we do it right...?

As for it working, it doesn't. All the experts who know about it and stuff says it doesn't. The person will say anything to get out, and so its often very unreliable. They just say what they think you want to hear, not what is always true.

I actually agree.

As for the terrorist leaders they got life saving information from, that's mostly propaganda. They don't tell you about all the stuff they lied about and all the time they wasted following false leads, or that most of the stuff they revealed was outdated and we already knew about. In fact, they wont even share most of the stuff with the public. Though I guess we are just supposed to believe the government, when they tell us they got a ton of stuff from them without any proof of it.

If they wont share it with the public, then you don't know if they lied or not. You don't know if they wasted time following false leads. You said so yourself.

As for your most extreme, highly unlikely situation that never happens and probably never will. Well why don't just use what you said before? You know the threat of prison, and all the major 'bummers" that are used to control people. Why not use them to get the information from them? All studies have shown that interrogation techniques where you try to understand the person and what their goals are and then twisting that to your need is far superior than torture.

As for this, I didn't read the last page. No opinion.

Why do so many people always jump to torture so quick, when it doesn't even work? To me it sounds like you are acting entirely out of emotion and not logical thought. The idea is to just cause the person you hate the most pain possible until you break them. At first you use a 'questionable' technique like water boarding and say its not really torture. But as you become more irrational and angry you go to the extreme and stab them in the ass with a knife and twist it around while having bugs bite the person on the face.

We didn't jump to torture. We waterboarded them.

It's so easy to to leave your morals behind and act like a savage the more passionate you get on 'punishing' the people you hate so much. There is no question you hate them far beyond what is normal.

Damn right we don't like them. But that doesn't mean we went ahead and tortured them. Please stay on topic. Stop calling us emotional and passionate, and debate about if waterboarding is torture or not.

People with clearer heads are needed. Even if you wanted to argue that torture should be allowed in extreme cases, which I do not agree with. I still wouldn't agree that the terrorism we face today is an extreme case.

Then what is an extreme case?

There has never been a threat of a terrorist blowing up a nuclear bomb any where on our land. Neither are the bomb threats as serious as you try to make people believe. If there was a 9/11 sized attack every year, for ten years it still wouldn't kill as many people who died in car accidents in just one year. And that was the biggest of the big. Happened once, and nothing else since then. Where is the threat?

It's not about what they are doing here, it's more what they do at their own home. Read the book "The Forever War".

Terrorism is not a major threat to us. We should not be breaking the law to harm them. We should be sacrificing the moral fiber of our country for such stupid things. And we should never be commenting war crimes on other people. Not ever. What are we the nazi's now? I am sure you would be more than happy to gather up all the 'terrorists' and gas them wouldn't you?

You're comparing your own government a Fascist regime that committed genocide on Jews, Blacks, Gypsies, and homosexuals, and took away the citienship and civil rights of just about anyone that didn't follow their twisted lead?

All because we sprayed water on evil men's faces?

Be honest with me now. Tell me the truth. If all the terrorist in the world were in one room together, you would kill them all and you would do it in the most painful way possible. Wouldn't you?

No, I would make them live as long as they can in that room, whilst they sit in their own disgrace.

And to answer the question I know will come. No I wouldn't torture them to death. I wouldn't even kill them. I would arrest them.

And do what with them? Shove them in a prison with gangsters and drug addicts that will eventually come out of he prisons with not only friends and extra gang training, but now with terrorism training? That's ridiculous. Why would you do that?

Originally Posted by [SomeGuy]

debate about if waterboarding is torture or not.

that's been settled already. you have to tell us why you don't think it's torture, because the law says that it is (and it contradicts everything you've said about it so far).

I've already told you. I've already countered your points. Counter mine, don't keep asking me why it is not.

Originally Posted by Alric

Oh I get it. So its torture when other countries do it, but when we do, its not torture? How does that work again? Because when we drown you, we do it with a smile on our face, so its nice?

That is not what I said, and you know it. If you want to continue to discuss this with me, stop deliberately misrepresenting my points. I said that I am not familiar with how other countries do it. I can argue about the U.S. way of doing it and tell you that our special forces are not out marching against it.

Originally Posted by Alric

As for the terrorist leaders they got life saving information from, that's mostly propaganda. They don't tell you about all the stuff they lied about and all the time they wasted following false leads, or that most of the stuff they revealed was outdated and we already knew about. In fact, they wont even share most of the stuff with the public. Though I guess we are just supposed to believe the government, when they tell us they got a ton of stuff from them without any proof of it.

Terrorist attacks have been foiled because of waterboarding. If you want to say the reports are false, then that is a convenient assertion you cannot back up. Even IF some of the information was false, what matters is that some of it was not and innocent lives were saved.

You read the scenario about the nulcear bomb, right? I want you to tell me what you would do in that situation. I know it is hypothetical, but it still represents the picture very well, and it very well might end up becoming a literal reality. What would you do?????????? I am going to ask that question of anybody who wants to debate me on this. Go ahead and come up with an answer.

Even if waterboarding wasn't torture, the US shouldn't be doing it. It just reinforces the world view that americans are hypocrites.

The US government has been sued in the past, because of their training methods they have used. Though like I said, the point is to help them resist it. They weren't torturing the soldiers for months at a time. Of course their not going to be as upset with it as others, who are taken against their will and have it done to them. Though if you ask them, most of them will say that yes its torture. Your calling them liars because they are not protesting it's use?

What is a convenient assertion, is the claim that innocent lives where saved when there is no proof of that at all.

As for your scenario, it doesn't represents anything at all. You might as well be saying, what if the terrorist take over a satellite missile platform in space? Would it be ethical to launch a nuclear missile into a space to destroy it, or is there to much risk of the bomb exploding earlier and sending radiation raining back down on the planet?

The entire thing is highly unlikely, and really isn't a valid argument at all. Its never going to happen.

As for what I would do in the worst possible case scenario you can think of? I would interrogate the person without using violence against them. As I said, torture gives unreliable information. Stabbing him in the ass is more likely to get you false information and result in the death of everyone as the bomb goes off.

The exact type of integration would depend on the person and his motivations. What I would do though is have an expert on the subject who all agree that torture doesn't work do the interrogations techniques that are proven to get reliable information.

Things like telling him if he helps us stop the attack we will be more lenient on him in the future and that we may release him, and if he doesn't he will rot away in the worst jail there is for the rest of his life. A lot of people will give things up to protect themself.

Or you can talk about the innocent people who will die from the attack, if he doesn't help us. Just like how you want to look at them as monsters they see us the same way. But if you make it more personal, some of them will have a change of heart. Especially if you bring other people of the same religion into it, and say that it will result in the death of the very people he is trying to help.

We know stuff like that does work.

Originally Posted by Alric

A lot of people will give things up to protect themself.

That is absolutely correct.

I believe you would have that knife pushed so hard under his chin that it would almost be coming up through his tongue. It is easy to sit at your cushy computer while protected by the U.S. military and talk about your fantasies of self-righteousness, but I am positive that being mugged by reality would give you a completely different perspective on things.

Originally Posted by arcadeRobot

Even if waterboarding wasn't torture, the US shouldn't be doing it. It just reinforces the world view that americans are hypocrites.

What would you do in the nuke situation sleepingdog described? What about the kidnapping situation?


I know I said this pages ago, but I think I am through with this thread and this subject. There isn't really that much more to say about it.

No I wouldn't. I just told you exactly what I would do. And it is a far better method of getting information than using a knife. Why should people resort to brute force tactics in extreme situation, when we know it will not work as effectively? The more extreme the situation, the more we should control our self and do things the proper way.

As for fantasies, well your the last person who should be speaking with them. Your so scared of things that never happen, that it influences your judgment. You really should take a step back and stop buying into the propaganda. Not everyone is out to get us, and while there are terrorists, they are not a serious threat to this country.

Originally Posted by Alric

No I wouldn't. I just told you exactly what I would do. And it is a far better method of getting information than using a knife. Why should people resort to brute force tactics in extreme situation, when we know it will not work as effectively? The more extreme the situation, the more we should control our self and do things the proper way.

The ice cream and Sunday School tactics only work on the piss ants. The leaders don't cave so easily. The three terrorist leaders we used waterboarding on wouldn't say shit until they were waterboarded. A lot of interrogation and Mr. Rogers games preceded the waterboardings. I would bet my CD collection that if your daugher were held captive and you had custody of somebody who knew where she was you wouldn't be bringing in silly people with ice cream cones to get the guy to talk. You would have a weapon putting the guy within an inch of his death and demanding that he tell you where your daughter is. Be realistic.

Originally Posted by Alric

As for fantasies, well your the last person who should be speaking with them. Your so scared of things that never happen, that it influences your judgment. You really should take a step back and stop buying into the propaganda. Not everyone is out to get us, and while there are terrorists, they are not a serious threat to this country.

Did you read the link about foiled terrorist attacks? We haven't been getting attacked because our security is so damn good.

If our security is so great, then why do we need to torture people? It is very much unneeded. Unless you are claiming our security is so poor, that without the torture they would have succeeded? Which one is it? That its so great nothing can get by us, or that its so poor, our only option is to torture people in hopes to get the needed information?

You always make such extreme exaggeration. An attack that would maybe kill a few hundred are nuclear bombs, and using psychological manipulation is giving them ice cream?

Anyway, if they had my daughter in that situation. I would leave. Its entirely possible I might do what you said I would do, however I know better than to let the anger cloud my mind. I would leave and let someone who can look at it objectively do the interrogation. Not only because its the right thing to do morally, but also because it what is most likely to get my daughter back in the end.

Originally Posted by Alric

If our security is so great, then why do we need to torture people? It is very much unneeded.

We waterboarded, not tortured, THREE terrorist leaders. It was part of our great security.

Originally Posted by Alric

You always make such extreme exaggeration. An attack that would maybe kill a few hundred are nuclear bombs, and using psychological manipulation is giving them ice cream?

No. A nuke can kill an entire city. If set off in New York, it would kill 12 million and make the city uninhabitable for years.

Like I said, the ice cream manipulation does not work on the strong ones.

Originally Posted by Alric

Anyway, if they had my daughter in that situation. I would leave. Its entirely possible I might do what you said I would do, however I know better than to let the anger cloud my mind. I would leave and let someone who can look at it objectively do the interrogation. Not only because its the right thing to do morally, but also because it what is most likely to get my daughter back in the end.

The scenario involved two choices, not a third. You have to act right away. If the kidnapper is as strong as KSM, the ice cream games will not work on him. You will have to scare the ever living bejesus out of him.

That is just your opinion. You don't think the other methods will work, and you think torture will. I am not exactly sure what your opinion is based on. However I do know most experts believe that you are wrong, and that the other methods are far superior to torture and scaring the person half to death.

As for you nuclear bomb theory. There are serious flaws to it. The first being that the terrorists have no way to get a nuclear bomb. The second is they have no way to sneak it into the city, to arm it, or to deploy it. Even if you ignore all that, the most likely situation is a dirty nuke which only blows up a couple of blocks not the entire city. But the chances of that is even highly unlikely.

I mean if entire country using all its resources can not make a nuclear bomb, how do you think some terrorists are going to get one? Its not going to happen. People who are worried about a nuclear bomb going off in a US city from a terrorist attack are just paranoid. There is no information to support such a thing happening. Its not even a risk.