Thread: On consciousness

I love this thread. Love it!

You've put a lot of things into words that I have been thinking about very much recently. I'm going to collect my thoughts and come back with a proper response.

"Consciousness. What is it"

Keep asking that question.

You have some very interesting thoughts there. That's all I can say for now.

consciousness is the OBSERVER of your thoughts...NOT the thinker.

Meditation can help you achieve the "observer" state. It's really interesting.

Yeah, meditation is a fascinating experience, few days ago for a few moments I felt as if all my life, my past, future and presence was just a film I'm watching and nothing more - when you're watching a film you obviously know that it's not real life and whatever happens in the film doesn't affect the reality or yourself - that's how I felt for a brief moment then.

Good job expressing, excellent thoughts and questions!

Originally Posted by Nick89

Another observation: altered states of consciousness are somehow related to time perception, aren't they? Wouldn't you agree that in states such as being on psychedelics, lucid dreaming or deep meditation, there is no such thing as 'time', or there is... but it doesn't really matter - all that is, all that can ever be, so to say, is the present moment. I have experienced this a lot, how about you?

Let's assume the thesis that profound consciousness implies timelessnes is true. Timelessness means... no death... no such thing as eternity... Eternity is being fully conscious and that's all.

You said it all. I feel the same. Our brain blurs and diminishes our time-space awareness to - perception. While meditating, for example, I observe my brain doing this, and soon realize we are one all-embracing dot in one infinite moment.

But here's the thing. English is not my language, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the better term to use instead of consciousness, would be awareness.

And I believe you are talking about 2 things: being aware of something (for example dreaming); and pure awareness itself (the liberation from thoughts, you mentioned happiness).

While dreaming, we are in an altered state of consciousness. Our conscious mind in a lack of external stimuli speaks with the subconscious mind. One difference between being awake and asleep is - while asleep, there is usually no critical factor. Critical factor is a part of our conscious, a filter that determines whether anything presented to us conforms with our deepest beliefs. It decides either to reject the information, or accept it and pass it on to the subconscious mind. Since the subconscious mind is the direct communicator in dreams, critical factor is missing. We end up accepting silly logic.

When we start to question the logic in our dreams, we are 'inviting' the critical factor. The more we question, the bigger the chances are for critical factor to appear. So, the critical factor is the click you're mentioning. It makes us 'aware of'.

However, awakening the pure awareness really is a beautiful path. Reaching towards lucidity, looking inside, observing your thoughts. I've become dedicated to it, and it makes me happier and calmer every day. So, yes I agree with you, awareness is beyond the brain activity, and it is a way to happiness, that is peace. Just observe and study the plants. They are fascinating examples of pure awareness.

Originally Posted by Luanne

While dreaming, we are in an altered state of consciousness. Our conscious mind in a lack of external stimuli speaks with the subconscious mind. One difference between being awake and asleep is - while asleep, there is usually no critical factor. Critical factor is a part of our conscious, a filter that determines whether anything presented to us conforms with our deepest beliefs. It decides either to reject the information, or accept it and pass it on to the subconscious mind. Since the subconscious mind is the direct communicator in dreams, critical factor is missing. We end up accepting silly logic.

When we start to question the logic in our dreams, we are 'inviting' the critical factor. The more we question, the bigger the chances are for critical factor to appear. So, the critical factor is the click you're mentioning. It makes us 'aware of'.

Hmm interesting thought, but isn't this 'critical factor' just a part of the egoic thinker? Or do you mean its a component of the pure awareness you mentioned? I understand what you mean by accepting silly logic, but when we consciously dissect information it seems to me like its always done with a bias (based on those pesky past beliefs, our reality tunnel if you will).

Awesome thread by the way, everyone's got some great thoughts. I love your discourses Nick. I suggest to anyone who really identifies with the subject matter here this website: http://www.advaita.org. Its become my end all resource for mind-related matters like this. Check out the meditations of Ramesh Balsekar and Ramana Maharshi especially.

I'm also starting to realize the immensity and timelessness of the present moment like a few of you have described. It seems to me that the past and future are mental, linguistic concepts. To be truly aware is to be free from all of these concepts, which are always formed from words and language. In essence these discussions are only solidifying our linguistic mind's (ego's) reality tunnel. It is necessary to question, but I feel we'll eventually get to a point where questioning is no longer needed. Then this reality tunnel begins to slip away with the ego leaving nothing but...everything.

Originally Posted by Speesh

Hmm interesting thought, but isn't this 'critical factor' just a part of the egoic thinker? Or do you mean its a component of the pure awareness you mentioned? I understand what you mean by accepting silly logic, but when we consciously dissect information it seems to me like its always done with a bias (based on those pesky past beliefs, our reality tunnel if you will).

Yes, you're absolutely right. It's a part of a conscious mind. That's way I stated I believed Nick89 was mentioning two different things: being completely aware, and being aware of. Talking about critical factor, I was referring to 'being aware of'.
And yes, whether information is rejected or accepted depends on deep subconscious beliefs.


This is a fascinating thread in my opinion, because it questions how far does explainable psychology go.

I know little about this man called Osho, but he really have some interesting thoughts about the consciousness. In this quote he says that drugs and intoxicants trains the mind to be unconscious and feelings like anger and boredom also bring unconsciousness. To him, conscious is constantly expanding or shrinking. I found really exciting this meditation he suggests called "tratak", it sounds as if were so easy to encounter with the unconscious...
http://www.oshomeditationtechniques....ion-technique/

Originally Posted by Luanne

Just observe and study the plants.

Have you ever had or heard of mugwort, wormwood, or Sassafras Root Bark? Most of these plants have medicinal benefits...like weed. One of them being a precursor to MDMA.

Weed is the most interesting. It puts you in the "pure awareness" state that you mentioned. The observer. This is why I see cannabis as a way to lucid dreams.

consciousness it's your brain reacting to and analyzing external stimuli.

nothing special

Originally Posted by grasshoppa

consciousness it's your brain reacting to and analyzing external stimuli.

nothing special

ah i get it so conscious dreaming is just a myth then. looks like we're posting on the wrong forum

Originally Posted by Luanne

Yes, you're absolutely right. It's a part of a conscious mind. That's way I stated I believed Nick89 was mentioning two different things: being completely aware, and being aware of. Talking about critical factor, I was referring to 'being aware of'.
And yes, whether information is rejected or accepted depends on deep subconscious beliefs.

Thanks for the clarification, I see what you mean.

Luanne:

Yes, you're absolutely right. It's a part of a conscious mind. That's way I stated I believed Nick89 was mentioning two different things: being completely aware, and being aware of. Talking about critical factor, I was
referring to 'being aware of'.And yes, whether information is rejected or accepted depends on deep subconscious beliefs.

This is a fascinating thread in my opinion, because it questions how far does explainable psychology go.

Precisely. What I meant by 'consciousness' (as I said, you may call it 'awareness', 'God' or 'Being' even, if you wish; as long as we're pointing out to the same thing) is not the same as being aware of something in the sense we use it in everyday speech). Consciousness demands being aware of something (in other words, the critical factor helps gain 'consciousness'), but to my mind, it is above it.

I'll give an example which explains the difference I see between being aware and being 'pure awareness, being 'fully conscious', whatever you call it. A murderer may be completely aware of the act of killing, yet he is not 'conscious'. He knows what he is doing, yet he doesn't 'know' what it 'means'. Only later he has to feel remorse to become 'conscious', a remorse being here a gift rather than a punishment.

Another brief example, maybe more familiar to all of us lucid dreamers. Imagine that you become aware of the fact that what's going at the moment is bizarre. Suddenly, you become lucid in your dream. After few seconds, however, you begin to think 'I've finally done it' and simultaneously you feel joy because of the accomplishment. And you lose lucidity, I believe
because you get identified with your thoughts and emotions (positive or negative, doesn't matter). You come back to the state in which you've lived for most of your life (me too, of course, not that I'm preaching): believing that you are your mind and body and nothing more. As a result you once again ARE nothing back at the moment - and lose consciousness...

I'll ask a question. Is it really so, that in a dream you're unaware of what's going on? So you don't feel your emotions and don't think your thoughts or what? Or you don't percieve yourself as yourself? Yeah, I'm asking stupid questions right now, since I've just realised something...In a dream, I dare to say, you are as aware of what you're doing as in waking life. Simply, in waking life your rational mind is turned on, so you believe what you do makes sense. What it really means to be fully conscious is taking what is for what it REALLY is. So, in a lucid dream, you know that it's nothing more than just a dream. You can wake up from it whenever anything untoward and unpleasant happens. It doesn't touch you, can't harm you.
In waking life, however, we percieve our life... as everything. MY life is all that I have... And what is my life? The people I know, the people I'm close to, my past, my future plans, my character, my faults, and my virtues, and so on. However, whenever we lose it all, can't we still be conscious of what happens? And still percieve ourselfves? Still exist?

The most crucial misconception each of us has to be convinced to and the most horrific when one finally realises that. However, understanding gives you nothing, sub-conscious is stronger... the next level of ourselves to work on.

Speesh:

I'm also starting to realize the immensity and timelessness of the present moment like a few of you have described. It seems to me that the past and future are mental, linguistic concepts. To be truly aware is to be free from all of these concepts, which are always formed from words and language. In essence these discussions are only solidifying our linguistic mind's (ego's) reality tunnel. It is necessary to question, but I feel we'll eventually get to a point where questioning is no longer needed. Then this reality tunnel begins to slip away with the ego leaving nothing but...everything.

Agreed. I recommend Anthony De Mello and Tolle's books since some of my concepts here ultimately originate from there, and what you say above is quite similar to what's in those books.

One or two more reflections on consciousness.
First of all, why on earth haven't I taken into account the whole spectrum of disturbances in consciousness? These people apparently, or at least are believed to have 'lost' their consciousness (coma) or at least it's 'damaged'? (sounds a bit absurd) My thesis is that if we found out that in all of these disorders specific parts of the brain are turned off, we would be able to 'place' the source of consciousness somewhere. Or if we found some common qualities between brain activiy of people with such disorder, we would be able to formulate some conditions on which consciousness may 'be born'. However, if we ever found there aren't any significant similarities...? However, I'm not much knowledgable on the subject, I would appreciate help of someone who knows more on the subject of disturbances of consiousness (if the phrase not correct English, I beg you pardon )

Secondly, above I used the phrase 'source of consciousness' instead of consciousness. Why?
Imagine that today it is suddenly announced: 'Scientists from hmhmhm have found the particles/waves etc that are responsible for the existence of consciousness! These quantum particles blabla'.
Would you believe? Would you accept that who you really are is nothing more than a bunch of particles, or waves, or probablites of waves, for that matter? Would you be able to 'grasp' it with your mind, that 'I' is ultimately only a physical thing? And what 'I' feel is ultimately a particle/wave? Would you?

Originally Posted by Speesh

ah i get it so conscious dreaming is just a myth then. looks like we're posting on the wrong forum


Thanks for the clarification, I see what you mean.

Hehe. +1

When questioning awareness, we're questioning life. Believing it is beyond the brain activity, connecting us all, I also believe it can not, nor it should be described in words. Giving answers to that questioning and holding on to them, makes it a religion.

I don't like your 'murderer' example, Nick89, because I feel it only questions logic and awareness of the consequences, still not seeing the bigger picture. Lucidity, however, in dreams and in waking life is simply a state of high awareness of the surroundings. Still blurred by thoughts. But in my opinion, it increases the quality of life hugely, and opens our mind to higher levels of understanding, as well as bringing us closer to full awareness.

Awareness itself, liberated from thoughts, emotions and perception, is something that can be experienced through deep transcendental meditation.

I had a thread about levels of awareness when I came to DV. Damn, I used a lot of smilies. (also, I used the word consciousness, which I don't prefer now)
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=84730 I believe you'll find it interesting, Nick89.

Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

Weed is the most interesting. It puts you in the "pure awareness" state that you mentioned. The observer.

It sure does! But actually, I was thinking about plants as living beings, and their own awareness.

Originally Posted by Nick89

Agreed. I recommend Anthony De Mello and Tolle's books since some of my concepts here ultimately originate from there, and what you say above is quite similar to what's in those books.

In the last month Tolle's "The Power of Now" has been recommended to me and has popped up in random conversations countless times, seriously like multiple times every day. Its uncanny. I don't read about this stuff too often anymore (the way that can be spoken of is not the way, etc), but I may have to check that one out just out of curiosity. I'm sure its filled with great ideas.

Originally Posted by Speesh

In the last month Tolle's "The Power of Now" has been recommended to me and has popped up in random conversations countless times, seriously like multiple times every day. Its uncanny. I don't read about this stuff too often anymore (the way that can be spoken of is not the way, etc), but I may have to check that one out just out of curiosity. I'm sure its filled with great ideas.

Try 'Stillness Speaks' also. (about awareness)

As for learning how to be more conscious... What I have experienced for the last few days is rather unusual, precisely at least few times a day my attention is kind of unwillingly and automatically redirected from my thoughts back to what's happening at the moment eg. when I'm opening a cupboard I used to open without ever thinking about it, now I notice that the doors screech. Quite oddly, it's very enjoyable.