The Real Problem With Homosexuality

No one move this to R/s! This is not about religion at all!

Some of you might have seen me sticking up for homosexuality in the past. What I want to get very clear from the start is that this is not a point against all types of homosexual behaviour, and it certainly does not pertain to what should be legal and illegal. Instead it is a warning, rather like you tell people to wear condomns without actually making it illegal for them not to (but I bloody would :angry:).

Studies such as this: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0617151845.htm have been used in defense of the argument that homosexuality is predetermined. While this solves some issues, I believe it causes others.

I have had the notion for a long time that there is something fundamental in human nature about uniting masculine and feminine aspects in relationships. I don't know for certain whether this is instinctive, but it's obviously culturally and in most cases socially prefferable for one partner to adopt a masculine role, and another a feminine role.

I hear too many people saying, "Look, some men just love other men, some women just love other women, that's it", as if it's that simple. It's obviously not! If most homosexuals have the brain structure of the opposite sex, then who are they going to find when they seek another homosexual partner? In most cases, someone who has the same brain structure. In this case we no longer have, for example, two gay men, we have to gay man lesbians.

Why is this a problem? It is not. As long as you don't want a masculine/feminine relationship*. However, most people DO. And for good reason. Obviously, there are people out there who are exceptions to the rule (I consider myself to be one), and that's okay. However, homosexuals ought to have the foresight that it will probably be very hard to find a suitable partner.

*(having the physical body of the opposite psychological sex makes no immediate difference to the emotions of a relationship, so this doesn't count)

I don't know much about gay 'culture', but I have heard and can easily imagine that many gay men, who don't exactly have their feet on the ground, will squander a lot of their time in fleeting relationships or simply shagging a lot because they are unable to handle the emotional implications. If this is how someone prefers to live, this is not a problem, however the people in question do so out of conformity or desperation, because they are confused.

I think there should be big changes made in public education about homosexuality. Political correctness has gone so far through the roof that many people dismiss this obvious problem and make it out as if any man/man or woman/woman relationship can be just as fulfilling as any man/woman relationship. We don't live in a unisexual utopia; this is a lie.

Since both statistically (see link) and by general knowledge, we know that effeminite gay people tend to far outweigh their counterparts, this in theory renders the chances of successful gay relationships to be far less than straight ones. If this is not the case, and gay relationships are just as successful, then the only other option is that it should be possible for anyone to love anyone romantically regardless of whether they have a masculine or feminine psychology. A lot of straight people aren't going to like this.

However, I would be extremely skeptical of any study done in this field because it's quite possible that the vast majority of gay couples involve the minority group. Which leaves a lot of very unhappy, single gay people. I haven't looked this up yet, but if I get any replies I will provide more info when I can.

(if you are furious about my claims, please keep your responses passionately angry, so I know how it feels)

Isn't this like the 2nd or 3rd thread on the same subject?

Dude if you are gay then you are just gay.

There's no "scientific experiment" to test and see if it's "predetermined"..wtf

Seriously.

There's no PROBLEM with homosexuality...it's just a preference. It's what YOU LIKE. NO "certain" brain structure makes you any different. From any other human.

Brain structure doesn't determine what you like...and if it does..you can consciously "change what you like".

I talked about ways to do this with subliminal messaging/imaging and NLP, but you got mad. Obviously that is too "mystical" for people, so i keep stuff like that in BD or religion/spirituality.

Brain structure certainly plays a role in sexual orientation, and from what information I have happened upon, it would seem as if the same qualities that make someone homosexual can make someone resemble the opposite sex psychologically. I'm sure they do to an extent. However, The gay men I have met don't behave much like women relationship wise. I honestly think gay culture makes men appear more effeminate than they are. In the same respect that straight men try to act tough, I think that openly gay men will affiliate themselves with feminine interests and mannerisms.

anyway, to respond to the main point of your thread: It is not my belief that a happy relationship depends heavily on the union of male and female characteristics. Too much importance is given to this aspect of relationships. It is mostly an excuse to deny gay people rights. It's true that women prefer manly men and men prefer womanly women for the most part, but gay men are looking for men, and I think that is what they will find, maybe with a dash of woman, but still plenty man enough. The same idea goes for lesbians too.

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Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

Isn't this like the 2nd or 3rd thread on the same subject?

Dude if you are gay then you are just gay.

There's no "scientific experiment" to test and see if it's "predetermined"..wtf

Seriously.

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OMG... I'm... GAY???????????????

:shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock:: shock::shock::shock:

I suppose I should be the LAST person to come up with this stuff!

And anyway, WTF? That's the most retarded set of scentences I've seen in a good while. "If you are gay you are just gay". And then you go on to say that it's not predetermined? WhAt Do YoU mEaN?

I also want to remind you that I haven't started ANY threads on homosexuality other than ONE in the 'Help!' section. So stop pulling stuff out of your arse because it is bullshit. If you want to prove a point find me one (within a few months of posting). And that does NOT include references to the subject, the thread must be ABOUT homosexuality.

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Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

Obviously that is too "mystical" for people, so i keep stuff like that in BD or religion/spirituality.

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Your opinion that we can 'change what we like' will also not go down well with anyone. Least of all the scientists. Can you do me a favour? Go out on the street and start sinking your teeth into molten tarmac and see if that suits your appetite. If you don't like it then STFU your point is useless.

Besides, if we CAN change our sexuality, I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT. It's fuck all to do with the subject, unless you're suggesting it as a cure for the problem.

But on that point, I'd love to see you 'subliminal message' a completely different brain structure away. It's obvious that a lot of homosexuals have different brain structures because they act like the opposite sex. If it's 'just a preference' then why does it just happen to be all to do with your personality as well?

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Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

There's no PROBLEM with homosexuality...it's just a preference.

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And I have a preference to floor you. Is that not a problem? A preference does not equal flawlessness. You must analyse how the preference would play out on a social level and then try to see if there will be a problem. That's what I'm doing.

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Originally Posted by Redeyedwolfking

It is not my belief that a happy relationship depends heavily on the union of male and female characteristics. Too much importance is given to this aspect of relationships.

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Admittedly I picked most of these ideas up from spiritual theories, but I simply assume that they are innately natural because it seems so obvious that masculinity and femininity need to co-exist to survive. It has been the same way since the dawn of man. It is like a balancing force. Unless you have special people with specific interests, I would have thought it works the same way in relationships. But if I was wrong and it is simply an overexaggerated false dichotomy enforced by religion, then that is... well, simply mind blowing. Then we would be suggesting that really, the only thing enforcing the gender gap is physical attraction. And then, once Hard Wired has got his subliminalismus going we'll all be in love with each other. This would... perhaps be a better world. As long as you can bitch slap envy into submission rather like men do with women in Islam. And, if you ask me that's the only real dismissal of the masculine/feminine balance in history.

Update: I found an interesting statistic that approximately 30-67% of gay men have no quarrel with polyamory. Or maybe it was 30% involved, 67% open to it or something like that. This probably comes from the subculture because I thought that a natural effeminite mind would be just as hostile to the idea of polyamory as the female mind, and in general men have a better time embracing it. But, I'm not going to complain. If the proportions I mentioned in my starting post are correct; this is one potential way of providing lasting emotional stability to a lot of gay people, if they know they can handle it.

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

...In this case we no longer have, for example, two gay men, we have to gay man lesbians.

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I stopped reading here.

Everyone seems to have points here, it's not like everyone can chime in with a million different opinions and you can all believe that you are correct, you are neive if you think like this. The human mind is complicated, we can look at every animal in the world and we are so determined to believe that WE are the most intelligent out of them all. So when religion used to say "All animals are heterosexual, therefore, God intends for us to have female mates if we are male, and vice versa;" THEN religion refers to animals as inferior to the human race and that we are "special". Although this isn't a clear contrast, you can still see the endless questions that could arise in order to "widen the plot-holes".
So when someone says "Listen, some men like men, some women like women, that's it."
I suppose they are correct, in a nutshell. I believe that nature isn't designed to a perfect scheme which can never be de-railed, because it can- wasps mate with orchid petals, humans can mate with the same sex. I do not believe that it is by any means efficient, because it isn't if everyone was homosexual then the human race could be wiped out. But the intelligence of humans and some other animals can cause them to ignore the instincts of their make-up. There's nothing to say that it's right or wrong, overall, morally- there's nothing wrong with it,
in terms of reproduction- it IS wrong.
You cant just sum everything up into one, not in our society anyway, humans have gone so far from the point that homosexuality is the least of our worries.

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

Your opinion that we can 'change what we like' will also not go down well with anyone. Least of all the scientists. Can you do me a favour? Go out on the street and start sinking your teeth into molten tarmac and see if that suits your appetite. If you don't like it then STFU your point is useless.

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That really isn't fair. There is a huge difference, because sex feels good, regardless of who you are with. Even a straight guy would probably enjoy sex with another guy, if they just relaxed and let themself enjoy it. However that does not make them gey, since most people do not want that sort of relationship.

It is kind of like saying you were created to masterbate with your right hand. You might like your right hand, you might be better using it, but its a choice. It is a preference. I am pretty sure with a little practice you would enjoy doing it with your left hand just as much. That said, who really cares which hand someone else uses?

With passionate anger,
Your text-wall is full of presuppositions.

Ridiculous topic that, through pseudo analysis and bias logic, poses to have found a problem that can be pointed at.

Ought to. Should. Obviously.

Idol, could you sum up in a few sentences what the point of this thread is? Pardon my misunderstanding, I just honestly don't quiet understand what you are trying to say or why.

I don't think I'll have anything to contribute to this topic, I've never studied homosexuality, I'd just like to figure out what you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

I have had the notion for a long time that there is something fundamental in human nature about uniting masculine and feminine aspects in relationships. I don't know for certain whether this is instinctive, but it's obviously culturally and in most cases socially prefferable for one partner to adopt a masculine role, and another a feminine role.

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You're making a large assumption, attraction and relationships are too much more complex than that. By your logic it would not be possible for a normal man to be attracted to a dominant or tomboyish woman, that's obviously not true.

Your view of the situation is extremely black and white. Even if a balance between masculine and feminine is fundamental to healthy relationships, these qualities do not fall neatly along the lines you are trying to draw. Furthermore, whether someone is masculine or feminine has very little to do with their sexuality. There are effeminate men and masculine women who are heterosexual. There are masculine men, and feminine women who are homosexual. There are people who balance masculinity and femininity, and there are people who are attracted to many different types of people of both sexes.

Ultimately, your theory is baseless; because whether or not someone is masculine or feminine often times has nothing to do with who they are attracted to anyway. There are plenty of heterosexual couples who are both rather feminine or both masculine. There are couples that alternate roles depending on the context. The simplistic structure you are trying to apply to the question comes off as contrived and ignores the diverse nature of human relationships, and makes it sound like you are just trying to justify beliefs or feelings that you have that deep down don't seem rational.

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Originally Posted by lucid4sho

Idol, could you sum up in a few sentences what the point of this thread is?

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*Extended Discussion*

If I believed I had all the answers I would not have bothered to make this. It's only if it could be deduced that homosexuality is 'unlucky' that any action would need to be taken (to warn gay people). By the time someone realises they are gay, it is not as if they have an encyclopedia of loveology written in their heads. If the facts are that they will have difficulty, they ought to know it otherwise it can prove very depressing for many gay teens and adults. Most of all, it can be extremely confusing. And, if they start to pull their heads out en masse with the delusion that they have failed because their sexuality is 'sinful', then we will have a lot of unneeded shame complexes and very likely much more fuel for the fire of religious homophobia. This is why I care about it and it is important!

@ Scatterbrain and Xaqaria: You raise a really good point. But, I am making generalisations. Usually, the masculine archetype is attracted to the female archetype and vice versa. That is a well known normality, it is overwhelmingly common. There are exceptions to the rule, but we cannot ignore tendencies. All the trend tells me is that, if the trend is true, which it is, then in theory there ought to be many problematic relationships among homosexuals.

I'm obviously going to have to study a lot more about how relationships work. I don't see the point in trusting my own future experiences because then I would be left with results biased around the people I just happen to have met.

I still don't think that whatever complexities there are override the masculine / feminine tendency. Unless, it is not natural and it is completely shaped by society. But to find that out we would have to wait a long while or conduct some very unethical experiments.

Ps. Xaqaria, your sig has epiphanied me!

Well... Just what I want to say:
I find it odd that there are feminine gays and masculin gays... And the other way around as well.
I'm not trying to be too stereotypical here but you can mostly see about a guy that he's gay when he's acting feminine and from a lesbian when she's overly masculin. I'm not saying ALL! And I'm not implying one is 'good' and one is 'bad'.

Relationship wise I find that very... very odd. Now what are they attracted to?
That makes me think if there are guys out there that want a masculin lesbian xD

Are they drawn to behaviour of a sex, or the genitals... o.O That's basically what my question is about if you disect it :p

The problem is that although the masculine-feminine scenario is much more common (obviously) it seems to me that you are assuming that because this is so, a set up like it is required for happiness. This is a groundless thing to think! The reason gay men have problems with relationships is because for most of human history homosexuals were strongly condemned, even persecuted. This causes them to have trouble with there own sexuality and trouble(in some cases) finding gay men to have relationships with. I would say that gay relationships are no more difficult (once a partner is found) than straight relationships. People, wether gay or straight, are basically the same. The have the same emotional and social needs and need the same thing from relationships. To say that gay men are psychologically women in a male body seems ignorant to me. I am gay and clearly see a mental, emotional, and psychological diffrence between myself as a male and people of the female gender. In short, there is no real proven basis that man-woman is needed for happiness, in fact the millions of happy gay couples seem to state the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

To say that gay men are psychologically women in a male body seems ignorant to me. I am gay and clearly see a mental, emotional, and psychological diffrence between myself as a male and people of the female gender.

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Human sexuality is so fucking confusing...

I really don't think any of this makes sense to me anymore. I take in what you say and then it's like "So why are these types of people not attracted to women?" and then I look at myself and see myself having feminine type fantasies and wonder if I could be the same way but I'm obviously not because it's been proven by science my brain's on the masculine end of the spectrum.

I really should have saved this for a time when I actually understand physical and emotional attraction. I'm just afraid that it is going to be the most uncertain, ridiculous and labourous thing to research ever.

Being girly or not has nothing to do with being gay or straight.

Each person male and female has a balance between masculinity and feminity sometimes not so balanced yes.

If you want to research Idolfan , research on yourself it's the best way to know.


and Honestly you are being disrespectfull , because you are trying to define people that are gay and lesbian as diferently , when we are all the same in the core, yes I am gay.

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

OMG... I'm... GAY???????????????

: shock:

I suppose I should be the LAST person to come up with this stuff!

And anyway, WTF? That's the most retarded set of scentences I've seen in a good while. "If you are gay you are just gay". And then you go on to say that it's not predetermined? WhAt Do YoU mEaN?

I also want to remind you that I haven't started ANY threads on homosexuality other than ONE in the 'Help!' section. So stop pulling stuff out of your arse because it is bullshit. If you want to prove a point find me one (within a few months of posting). And that does NOT include references to the subject, the thread must be ABOUT homosexuality.

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IdolFan, HaRd_WiReD didn't say if "YOU" are gay, he said you as in everyone or talking to an audience.

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

Human sexuality is so fucking confusing...

I really don't think any of this makes sense to me anymore. I take in what you say and then it's like "So why are these types of people not attracted to women?" and then I look at myself and see myself having feminine type fantasies and wonder if I could be the same way but I'm obviously not because it's been proven by science my brain's on the masculine end of the spectrum.

I really should have saved this for a time when I actually understand physical and emotional attraction. I'm just afraid that it is going to be the most uncertain, ridiculous and labourous thing to research ever.

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Why do you put so much thought into it? That's what really concerns me. There's no grand secret to learn. Go make out with a guy. If you like it, then you're gay. Go make out with a girl. If you like it, then you're bisexual.

It's as simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Marvo

Why do you put so much thought into it? That's what really concerns me. There's no grand secret to learn. Go make out with a guy. If you like it, then you're gay. Go make out with a girl. If you like it, then you're bisexual.

It's as simple as that.

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I make a big thing about it because it doesn't make any sense, and I make a big thing out of anything that doesn't make any sense. I have also said that I have no need to have these experiences other than for my own business, because applying them to what I'm trying to understand will fuck it up. I would have to date almost every person in the country to get a reliable perspective.

The fact that it pertains to my life makes it excusable to rant on about I guess. But really, this was never the point of the thread.

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Originally Posted by mowglycdb

and Honestly you are being disrespectfull , because you are trying to define people that are gay and lesbian as diferently , when we are all the same in the core, yes I am gay.

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I just wrote a much longer response and then pressed ESC by accident. :mad: There is no God.

I like the way you capitalised Honesty as if to differentiate it from honesty, because you have unwittingly done it quite appropriately. I am not being disrespectful. Gays and lesbians are different, it's a fact. They are different in terms of their sexuality. Which means they will face different problems in life. Usually when a certain group of people faces a problem it can be wise to actually try to analyse this. I have Asperger's Syndrome, and this gives me certain social imparements (gays and lesbians, if (pay attention to that if) what I am proposing is correct, would also have social problems). And if people like you were protesting that there should be no research done into it because I was 'the same as you in the core', I would punch yer face.

And as for Hard Wired, okay that was a mistake on my part (lazy english language mutations). But it was pretty dumbass of him to say it because it's not as if I was proposing that there was anything more complex to the sexuality itself. I was saying that it would be more complex SOCIALLY. This is the thing Hard Wired didn't understand and never addressed. Once again, if someone made a thread saying, "The Real Problem With Asperger's Syndrome" I would understand what they were saying straight away and I wouldn't be suspecting that they were out to change me, because obviously that's not possible. Oh wait... Hard Wired said it was didn't he? Well bugger me with an ironic rod...

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

I make a big thing about it because it doesn't make any sense, and I make a big thing out of anything that doesn't make any sense. I have also said that I have no need to have these experiences other than for my own business, because applying them to what I'm trying to understand will fuck it up. I would have to date almost every person in the country to get a reliable perspective.

The fact that it pertains to my life makes it excusable to rant on about I guess. But really, this was never the point of the thread.

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What doesn't make sense? That your sexual orientation is in flux? That happens to nearly everybody and has something to do with hormones. Some people more than others. It'll be over when your grow older.

This "theory" or whatever you want to call it sort of reminds me of a friend saying that when gay people have sex they use toys or parts that are inherently representative of the opposite sex (ie. a dildo looks like a dick - sorry if I'm being blunt or inappropriate, just the best way to explain my thinking), which isn't really what you're talking about, but I thought I'd throw that out there because it could serve as some sort of "physical" evidence, I suppose.

Anyway, my thought is this - that these supposed "male" and "female" characteristics aren't. They're just human characteristics. While men seem to possess certain ones to a greater extent than women and vice versa, this doesn't mean they can't be found in different proportions in different people. In other words, what Xaqaria and lucid_boy said - these qualities are sought by all humans seeking a relationship, and aren't dependent on their orientation.

To those of you making this about Idolfan's sexuality: this isn't the point of this thread, please don't be so petty.

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Originally Posted by Marvo

What doesn't make sense? That your sexual orientation is in flux? That happens to nearly everybody and has something to do with hormones. Some people more than others. It'll be over when your grow older.

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It doesn't make sense to me that I can be of a masculine archetype and still be attracted to men. And it makes even less sense that I could be of a masculine archetype and actually be seeking another masculine type person. That is the confusing part (about people in general, not myself). The first instance tells us that at least the part of the brain that deals with physical attraction must be different from whatever determines your gender personality, but I am completely lost as to the second instance. I am saying it doesn't make sense because it really doesn't. Usually, two partners compliment each other in their features. How can this happen when they are of the same gender psychologically? That's what I am trying to figure out. You've got to admit it is a bit of a mystery.

With all that said, I was reffering to it not making sense that homosexual relationships would have just as high a success rate as heterosexual ones. And if it does, I really want to understand how and why.

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Originally Posted by katielovestrees

This "theory" or whatever you want to call it sort of reminds me of a friend saying that when gay people have sex they use toys or parts that are inherently representative of the opposite sex (ie. a dildo looks like a dick - sorry if I'm being blunt or inappropriate, just the best way to explain my thinking), which isn't really what you're talking about, but I thought I'd throw that out there because it could serve as some sort of "physical" evidence, I suppose.

Anyway, my thought is this - that these supposed "male" and "female" characteristics aren't. They're just human characteristics. While men seem to possess certain ones to a greater extent than women and vice versa, this doesn't mean they can't be found in different proportions in different people. In other words, what Xaqaria and lucid_boy said - these qualities are sought by all humans seeking a relationship, and aren't dependent on their orientation.

To those of you making this about Idolfan's sexuality: this isn't the point of this thread, please don't be so petty.

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Physical evidence... buh-dum-tish...

A very sane reply. Only the people involved can truly know and understand I guess. This leaves a big gap for the people who are perfectly balanced and compliment themselves. Who are they to find? Or are these effectively omnisexual demigods who can love anyone? Hey, no insult. That would be pretty slick!

My mind just threw up... I wonder, what comes first for homosexuals? The physical attraction or the emotional attraction? I mean in development, not in relationships. This would give a big insight. For me it was the physical aspect but then the emotional aspect came on like a pile of bricks (as if I always could have loved boys).

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

It doesn't make sense to me that I can be of a masculine archetype and still be attracted to men. And it makes even less sense that I could be of a masculine archetype and actually be seeking another masculine type person. That is the confusing part (about people in general, not myself). The first instance tells us that at least the part of the brain that deals with physical attraction must be different from whatever determines your gender personality, but I am completely lost as to the second instance. I am saying it doesn't make sense because it really doesn't. Usually, two partners compliment each other in their features. How can this happen when they are of the same gender psychologically? That's what I am trying to figure out. You've got to admit it is a bit of a mystery.

With all that said, I was reffering to it not making sense that homosexual relationships would have just as high a success rate as heterosexual ones. And if it does, I really want to understand how and why.

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The human brain has not been completely mapped yet, and there are still lots of things that we don't understand about it. Your theory, from what I can hear, asserts that we know all there is to know about the human brain, which we clearly don't.

Simply put, all the questions you're asking cannot be answered with a proper scientifical answer right now, because nobody really knows what the answer is.

I believe I'm a bisexual myself, and what I've found, is that I put on a manly personality and appearance when I'm headed for girls, and what I want in a girl is just a normal feminine person. When it comes to boys, I put on a feminine act and appearance (when I say appearance I mean body language) and what I want in a boy is pretty much the same.

Doesn't make sense I guess?

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With all that said, I was reffering to it not making sense that homosexual relationships would have just as high a success rate as heterosexual ones. And if it does, I really want to understand how and why.

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First: Why do you need to know this? Why do you need to know so much about all this? Why can't you just live with it?

Second: Nobody can give you a concrete answer.

Good point, humans have just barely scratched the surface of understanding how the brain works. I don't blame anyone for trying to understand homosexuality, but I'd be willing to bet the answer is too complicated for us at this point in time. It seems the best we can do is try to understand our own personal sexuality.

i think, to actually tackle this argrument we have to first go back to the facts/ opinions of "human nature" I'm pretty sure alot of problems show them selves in different ways in non homosexual relationships aswell. in my opinion i'd say it depends on the person not the sexual orientation.

Dost agree with Marvo

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Originally Posted by Marvo

First: Why do you need to know this? Why do you need to know so much about all this? Why can't you just live with it?

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I'm glad I read this before the rest of your post, it's saved me some energy.

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

I'm glad I read this before the rest of your post, it's saved me some energy.

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Well I think I can help you Idolfan I'm gay so shoot any question you like I'll answer.

Idolfan, don't you realize that many homosexual and bisexual animals exist in nature?

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Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

Idolfan, don't you realize that many homosexual and bisexual animals exist in nature?

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aww that was going to be my next point if this thread took off again :D

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Originally Posted by dreamnoob

aww that was going to be my next point if this thread took off again :D

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I was outraged that nobody had already brought up this obvious point.

We're not just talking about human nature here. We're talking about nature in general. There's sexual diversity all around us, and here we are acting like idiots trying to cap it and label it either good or bad. Stop being so myopic.

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Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

Idolfan, don't you realize that many homosexual and bisexual animals exist in nature?

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I am sorry for getting so angry again, but are you all retards? So what there are homosexual animals. There is no doubt that there is a physical predetermination of physical attraction, but are the animals you speak of bonded in any emotional way? And if they are, is it because one partner has the brain structure of the opposite sex? And even if they did not, and they were both the same archetype, just for the sake of argument, once again so what? That says nothing at all about human beings because these are animals! They are leagues and leagues away from the complexity of relationships that humans get into.

I think it's amazing how an incredibly clear topic can end up getting interpreted as something completely different. This was never about "Is homosexuality natural?" It is about since homosexuality is not in the mainstream natural order and it is a brain abnormality*, then how can it be expected to function in society as if we had been evolving for that purpose for millions of years? On topics like homosexuality, people seem to go into a stupor and even the liberals become dogmatic. It's the one topic where all of a sudden everyone seems to forget that evolution is a BLIND WATCHMAKER.

*It is abnormal, plus it's in the brain. So you can't really deny that it's a 'brain abnormality' unless you actually want to insult homosexuals. And since it's abnormal, it has not been selected in any way to constitute as a successful system! Bonobos are very close to us and practically all are bisexual, but this is only an experimental way of living. It's all experimental, humanity's own acceptance of homosexuality is experimental. So it pisses me off that people talk about it as if it's something completely doubtless and flawless.


@ mowglycdb : I guess all I can really ask is how do you see the proportions of archetypally masculine or feminine gay people? If you've known enough. Which way would you testify?

It would be interesting to understand how another homosexual's personality and desires worked out, but if we were to just work off them then the thread would be pointless because there is no decent sample.

Eureka!

I was having a bit of new year cheer so I researched nothing, but it's only taken me less than a minute to find this:

The sexually dimorphic nucleus whatever that is located near or on the hypothalamus or something is the part of the brain that deals with physcial sexuality. It is said to be larger in homosexual animals, as well as, presumably, homosexual people. I also saw this in a text book once, I just didn't take it in properly.

(I am not contradicting myself because this is about physical attraction)

So I suppose that if you had either a genetic mutation or a birth abnormality which increased the number of neurones in this area, but did not change the gender characteristics of your brain, you could then be likely to turn out as same-sex attracted, but not have the emotional characteristics of the opposite sex. This is very likely a bit of a stretch though because it doesn't include any environmental aspects.

Okay this didn't really advance anything in a social aspect but at least it shows how these things can probably arise.

can you sum up your point in like, a sentence?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nerve

can you sum up your point in like, a sentence?

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definitely not i already tried --> http://dreamviews.com/community/show...7&postcount=13

oops, I missed that.

okay, I think I have a vague idea of what you're trying to say, Idol. basically you're pointing out that the ideal relationship consists of a dominant/masculine person and a submissive/feminine person (regardless of gender), and that the typical homosexual relationship consists of either two feminine men or (I don't know if you've included lesbians) two masculine women, which is problematic and potentially detrimental...? is that close? and have you proposed a solution somewhere in your jabberwocky that I overlooked?

also:

Quote:

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Ps. Xaqaria, your sig has epiphanied me!

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LOL. I was not aware that the word "epiphany" could be used as a verb.

Well if it's not problematic then fine, but then I really just didn't know how human sexuality works.

Anyway, I've just considered something else

http://www.time.com/time/health/arti...815538,00.html

This article mentions that gay people usually retain many normal aspects of masculinity that straight women do not. So you might say that in some ways they were 'crosses' between male and female.

I could be very wrong after all. It would be quite bloody confusing.

I haven't read much of this thread neither knows what's hapening with it right now. I only read the couple first posts. But i wanted to comment on this:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

Brain structure doesn't determine what you like...and if it does..you can consciously "change what you like".

I talked about ways to do this with subliminal messaging/imaging and NLP, but you got mad. Obviously that is too "mystical" for people, so i keep stuff like that in BD or religion/spirituality.

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I approve this. It is possible and not so hard to consciously change what you like. I've done it a lot. A couple months ago, I decided I wanted to like every kind of food and so whenever I ate something disgusting, I would smile and tell myself that I loved it and i would simply appreciate the horrible taste until I actually like it.

The first time I ate sushi, I spat it in the garbage. I had been very interested about eating a sushi so its not like someone forced me. I truly hated sushi. I ate another one a couple months after and still hated it and then like I said, I decided I would like everything and when I saw another sushi, I got 8 (I was in a buffet) and ate them all. The first ones, I hated them, but I smiled and told myself I loved them. I appreciated it and then I started actually loving them. So the last ones, I actually liked a lot. I also took more. This proved to my family that it was possible to change your tastes. They hadn't believed me before that. I mean, at first I couldn't even eat one and once I tried, I would eat more than 8. And all that, without forcing myself. I was doing it 'cause I liked it. And sushi is far from being the only thing. I like everything now and that has changed my life. You guys should all try to like everything.

If you can change this, you probably can change your sexual orientation if you consider it as a preference. If you're homosexual and you like it that way, then, stay that way but don't say its 'predetermined' and that its impossible to change. Actually, i've read an article about gay guys unintentionally changing orientation. Their homosexuality had only been caused by the lack of male relashionships. So, becoming friends with more guys could itself help you change what you prefer sexually and make you straight. Again, I don't think you necessarily want that. Just saying, its possible to decide.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

I approve this. It is possible and not so hard to consciously change what you like. I've done it a lot. A couple months ago, I decided I wanted to like every kind of food and so whenever I ate something disgusting, I would smile and tell myself that I loved it and i would simply appreciate the horrible taste until I actually like it.

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That means you didn't really dislike the stuff. You just assumed you would and had a bad mental image of it. As it turned out, your taste buds were right for it.

Could you be attracted to men if you tried really hard to be? Could the offensive line for the Oakland Raiders? Could Richard Simmons or that Adam guy from American Idol be attracted to women if they tried really hard to be?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

That means you didn't really dislike the stuff. You just assumed you would and had a bad mental image of it. As it turned out, your taste buds were right for it.

Could you be attracted to men if you tried really hard to be? Could the offensive line for the Oakland Raiders? Could Richard Simmons or that Adam guy from American Idol be attracted to women if they tried really hard to be?

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Yes, I did dislike the stuff. I wrote a paragraph about hating sushi and how after becomming willing to like everything, I saw sushi and liked it after I did my little ritual

1. Take something you don't like
2. Eat it.
3. Taste it
4. Smile
5. make yourself believe you like it
6. Taste it and appreciate it
7. Keep eating until you like it for real.

And yes, I'm pretty sure that if I tried, i could become homosexual by doing the 7 steps I just wrote but by editing them a bit

1. Find a homosexual guy interested in you
2. Have sex with him
3. Feel it
4. Smile
5. Make yourself believe you like it
6. Feel it and apreciate it
7. Keep fucking until you like it for real

Uh... Well, that's probably VERY gross so I'd suggest to masturbate to a porno of the other sex instead of actually having sex.

But why would a straight guy want to be gay? I can only see disadvantages. Per exemple:
1. Can't have kids that you actually made as a couple
2. The only way of penetration is gross
3. Disrespect from others

and the list goes on. I'm sure there's nothing bad with homosexual guys or girls themselves but I don't see why anyone would chose to be if they don't have to. I admit that it probably is hard to change your orientation though because it would feel so wrong and disgusting and stuff. That's why I'm not forcing Homosexuals to become heterosexual even though I think it is doable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

1. Find a homosexual guy interested in you
2. Have sex with him
3. Feel it
4. Smile
5. Make yourself believe you like it
6. Feel it and apreciate it
7. Keep fucking until you like it for real

---

You have no idea how much I have tried that with women I was not attracted to. I very much would like to be attracted to practically all women. Do you know how much easier it would be to womanize if I could do that? I have slept with women that I tried all of that with but just absolutely could not become attracted to them. They would come at me, I would go along with it, and I would put out a major effort to enjoy it. Some of them I would try it with for more than an hour straight. It was hopeless. Preference is not a choice.

I still think you only got past an image barrier and not a physical barrier in your situations, which I consider revelations that you were wrong in thinking your taste buds wouldn't like stuff. It was the thoughts of the foods that you didn't like. Once you realized they taste good, you quit thinking they don't taste good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

You have no idea how much I have tried that with women I was not attracted to. I very much would like to be attracted to practically all women. Do you know how much easier it would be to womanize if I could do that? I have slept with women that I tried all of that with but just absolutely could not become attracted to them. They would come at me, I would go along with it, and I would put out a major effort to enjoy it. Some of them I would try it with for more than an hour straight. It was hopeless. Preference is not a choice.

I still think you only got past an image barrier and not a physical barrier in your situations, which I consider revelations that you were wrong in thinking your taste buds wouldn't like stuff. It was the thoughts of the foods that you didn't like. Once you realized they taste good, you quit thinking they don't taste good.

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Okay sure. I can't argue with you the possibility of changing your sexual orientation. I haven't ever try and don't plan to. I'm happy with being straight. I thought I could argue this with my experiences completly different themes but I figured I was wrong. YOu win on that one :)

However, the food thing, I'm right on that. Or maybe you're saying that I naturally like every food that I have tasted yet and one of my favorite things to do is to eat the weirdest and most disgusting looking foods and have access to. Sadly there's not too much but it stays the same. You're saying that there's no food I dislike (naturally). Obviously there are but I do the thing I said before and start liking it. Maybe it doesn't work with sexual orientation, but it works with taste buds. Maybe not with other people but with me it does and I don't think I'm special. I'm just more willing than other people.
By the way, I'll say it again. Lot's of people had told me sushi was delicious so i assumed it would be. My parents hate seafood so they didn't want to taste any. I ignored what they said and got two sushi, one with the green chinese sauce. I took a bite with the excitement of eating a sushi for my first time. I wasn't able to keep it in so I spat it out in the garbage and put the other one with the green sauce in the garbage feeling bad that I had to waste food. I did no where in that expect it to be bad. Then months later, i tried again and still hated it. Then, I became willing to like everything so I ate it and liked it a lot. YOu don't need to believe me, though. I don't know why I'm trying to prove this. Most people don't get it anyways. :roll:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

Okay sure. I can't argue with you the possibility of changing your sexual orientation. I haven't ever try and don't plan to. I'm happy with being straight. I thought I could argue this with my experiences completly different themes but I figured I was wrong. YOu win on that one :)

However, the food thing, I'm right on that. Or maybe you're saying that I naturally like every food that I have tasted yet and one of my favorite things to do is to eat the weirdest and most disgusting looking foods and have access to. Sadly there's not too much but it stays the same. You're saying that there's no food I dislike (naturally). Obviously there are but I do the thing I said before and start liking it. Maybe it doesn't work with sexual orientation, but it works with taste buds. Maybe not with other people but with me it does and I don't think I'm special. I'm just more willing than other people.
By the way, I'll say it again. Lot's of people had told me sushi was delicious so i assumed it would be. My parents hate seafood so they didn't want to taste any. I ignored what they said and got two sushi, one with the green chinese sauce. I took a bite with the excitement of eating a sushi for my first time. I wasn't able to keep it in so I spat it out in the garbage and put the other one with the green sauce in the garbage feeling bad that I had to waste food. I did no where in that expect it to be bad. Then months later, i tried again and still hated it. Then, I became willing to like everything so I ate it and liked it a lot. YOu don't need to believe me, though. I don't know why I'm trying to prove this. Most people don't get it anyways. :roll:

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If you're right about tastes in your mouth, that's a shocker because I have wanted for a long time to like the tastes of vodka and tequila, and I have tried and tried, but I think they taste disgusting. I have to mask their tastes with other stuff to drink them. There are really no foods I don't like, so I can't test your theory with food.

As for sexual preference, I wasn't just talking about orientation toward genders. For myself, I was talking about attraction within a gender. I am overwhelmingly attracted to some women, but not always so much the ones that are easily available to me. I am not attracted to men at all, but I have thought for a long time that life would be easier in a lot of ways if I were. Then again, it would be a lot harder in a lot of other ways.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

If you're right about tastes in your mouth, that's a shocker because I have wanted for a long time to like the tastes of vodka and tequila, and I have tried and tried, but I think they taste disgusting. I have to mask their tastes with other stuff to drink them. There are really no foods I don't like, so I can't test your theory with food.

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I don't know. I would assume everyone would be able to do it since I can but maybe its not everyone. I don't know. There should be a research on this :)

It's a good thing that there are really no foods you don't like. You don't even need to try to like them :)

As for sexual preference, I wasn't just talking about orientation toward genders. For myself, I was talking about attraction within a gender. I am overwhelmingly attracted to some women, but not always so much the ones that are easily available to me. I am not attracted to men at all, but I have thought for a long time that life would be easier in a lot of ways if I were. Then again, it would be a lot harder in a lot of other ways. [/QUOTE]

Oh okay. I get what you're saying now.
Well I don't know. You've comfused me about the human ability to chose what he/she prefers. I know its possible for me with food, but I never tried with anything else so... Maybe its not all that simple as I thought...

This is confusing in many ways. First of all I have witnessed possibly the first ever resolved argument on DreamViews. Secondly, I find the situation much the other way around. It seems in my lifetime that I can't enjoy some foods even if I have to eat them on a regular basis, like spaghetti bolognese. However give me any person on the planet and I will probably find some way to adapt myself to finding them sexually attractive. I can grow into new sexual ideas with much greater ease than I think most people can, which I suppose makes my brain very abnormal. I'm not just talking about fetishes, I mean genuine wanttobewith desire. I haven't tried in practice though, would be a bit problematic :? but I still reckon I could do it. And far easier than with foods or such.

I'll give you an example of how much I can change. SCD mentions that 'the only way of penetration is gross'. I used to think exactly the same thing only a few years back. But when I started to think about boys a lot more than girls I actually began to like the idea and find it more arousing than the idea of vaginal sex; and if I were suddenly to be straight again I would have no problem with anal sex at all. So the mind must have a good transformative ability, if it can make a dangerous stimulus like bumwhiff actually seem nice.

On the other hand this is probably a bad example because your mind might make you like anything through association of ideas in order to get sex.

Which means, I suppose, that most of us probably have an 'untapped' ability to be homosexual under the correct circumstances. Say if they were put in a room full of only the same sex for like their whole lives. But deliberately causing this change to happen probably isn't going to work unless the person is very flexible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

This is confusing in many ways. First of all I have witnessed possibly the first ever resolved argument on DreamViews. Secondly, I find the situation much the other way around. It seems in my lifetime that I can't enjoy some foods even if I have to eat them on a regular basis, like spaghetti bolognese. However give me any person on the planet and I will probably find some way to adapt myself to finding them sexually attractive. I can grow into new sexual ideas with much greater ease than I think most people can, which I suppose makes my brain very abnormal. I'm not just talking about fetishes, I mean genuine wanttobewith desire. I haven't tried in practice though, would be a bit problematic :? but I still reckon I could do it. And far easier than with foods or such.

I'll give you an example of how much I can change. SCD mentions that 'the only way of penetration is gross'. I used to think exactly the same thing only a few years back. But when I started to think about boys a lot more than girls I actually began to like the idea and find it more arousing than the idea of vaginal sex; and if I were suddenly to be straight again I would have no problem with anal sex at all. So the mind must have a good transformative ability, if it can make a dangerous stimulus like bumwhiff actually seem nice.

On the other hand this is probably a bad example because your mind might make you like anything through association of ideas in order to get sex.

Which means, I suppose, that most of us probably have an 'untapped' ability to be homosexual under the correct circumstances. Say if they were put in a room full of only the same sex for like their whole lives. But deliberately causing this change to happen probably isn't going to work unless the person is very flexible.

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lol! The first resolved argument on Dreamviews! :D
Well, maybe everyone has their own thing that they can change their preference of. Me, its food. And you, its sex.

If I was stuck in a room with another guy for the rest of my life, I would probably not become gay even though I am pretty flexible. I'd just become his friend.

I don't think people would start having sex with a person just because there stuck with them for the rest of their lives. If you were stuck with your mother, father, sibbling or other member of your family, would you? no. So why would you with the sex you're not attracted to unless you want to experience something different?

So you are saying its impossible to have a masculine/feminine relationship between two men?

If so, that is the dumbest thing I have heard in a while.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CarmineEternity

So you are saying its impossible to have a masculine/feminine relationship between two men?

If so, that is the dumbest thing I have heard in a while.

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Well it's a good thing that's not what I am saying then.

I am saying that since the MAJORITY of gay people appear to be effeminite, it ought to be harder to secure a masculine/feminine relationship. This might not even be right. I've already suggested that gay people may have 'half and half' qualities.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

I am saying that since the MAJORITY of gay people appear to be effeminite, it ought to be harder to secure a masculine/feminine relationship. This might not even be right. I've already suggested that gay people may have 'half and half' qualities.

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That's not the majority. That's a stereotype blown out of proportion.

@ mowglycdb : I guess all I can really ask is how do you see the proportions of archetypally masculine or feminine gay people? If you've known enough. Which way would you testify?

It doesn't matter if you have known enough, it doesn't matter if they're masculine of feminine, there are a hell lot of straight feminine guys.

Quote:

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Well it's a good thing that's not what I am saying then.

I am saying that since the MAJORITY of gay people appear to be effeminite, it ought to be harder to secure a masculine/feminine relationship. This might not even be right. I've already suggested that gay people may have 'half and half' qualities.

---

ofcourse they can have half and half qualities, or they can be mostly feminine or mostly masculine because they're as normal as straight people.

let it go already you're loosing your time, but you can learn what loosing your time means.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mowglycdb

but you can learn what loosing your time means.

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Dunno what you're on about.

Anyway. As it turns out, this 'stereotype blown out of proportion' as it has been called is actually accurate because of the article that I presented. Homosexual brains usually resemble those of the opposite sex.

I would prefer it if people stopped trying to derail this. I was just told that homosexual men have as many effeminites as heterosexual men, or if I was not directly, then that was still the point of the message. The whole point of this thread is that homosexual men are in general more effeminite! If I did not have the statistics to back that claim up with I wouldn't bother making this thread or mentioning this at all because there would be no difficulties involved.

...--- oh ok

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

Dunno what you're on about.

Anyway. As it turns out, this 'stereotype blown out of proportion' as it has been called is actually accurate because of the article that I presented. Homosexual brains usually resemble those of the opposite sex.

---

So what of bisexuals, then? Whose brains do they "resemble"? I'm just curious, I'm not trying to "derail" this or anything. But this is Extended Discussion, so you really can't blame me.

I still think this thread is retarded

homosexuality is LEARNED..your not born with a specific "homosexual" brain structure

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

I still think this thread is retarded

homosexuality is LEARNED..your not born with a specific "homosexual" brain structure

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According to studies, that's what scientists think, actually. That we're born with a specific sexual orientation. I suppose nobody really knows though, which is why I think thread like these are kinda pointless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

I still think this thread is retarded

homosexuality is LEARNED..your not born with a specific "homosexual" brain structure

---

It's not about differing brain structure. It's about differing hormones. It is hormones that control sexual desire.

First of all. Nothing is learnable if your genes don't allow it. I could take ears of classes for flying but I wouldn't fly if my genes didn't give me wings. If anything, the minimal genetic conclusion necessary to make is that sexuality isn't strict - males [i]can[/] like males and females can like females. If genes influence sexuality more than that is still unknown.

Bisexuals are harder to study but most of the examples I've come across feature (in men) a masculine brain structure with some form of different libido. On the other hand it could be that sexuality develops into a gradient so most adults may be bisexual to some degree.

I want everyone to remember that there will always be exceptions to the rule. Bisexuals appear to be more exceptional than say homosexuals with the brain structure of the opposite sex.

It makes sense that female brains produce female hormones and male brains produce male hormones. Perhaps exceptions to the rule are people with the 'right' brains who just happen to be attracted to the same sex.

Just remember no matter what causes homosexuality directly, the studies show that most homosexuals do have a brain resemblance to the opposite sex.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

Bisexuals are harder to study but most of the examples I've come across feature (in men) a masculine brain structure with some form of different libido. On the other hand it could be that sexuality develops into a gradient so most adults may be bisexual to some degree.

I want everyone to remember that there will always be exceptions to the rule. Bisexuals appear to be more exceptional than say homosexuals with the brain structure of the opposite sex.

It makes sense that female brains produce female hormones and male brains produce male hormones. Perhaps exceptions to the rule are people with the 'right' brains who just happen to be attracted to the same sex.

Just remember no matter what causes homosexuality directly, the studies show that most homosexuals do have a brain resemblance to the opposite sex.

---

Likewise, remember that there are things we still don't understand. It simply isn't as black and white as you want to make it.

*jumps into debate*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

I still think this thread is retarded

homosexuality is LEARNED..your not born with a specific "homosexual" brain structure

---

Seriously? You think someone would willingly give up their happy straight orientation for the heavy persecution faced by homosexuals now? For what? What benefit could there possibly be? Mate, you are wrong. Homosexuality is not a "learned" behavior. There is definitely a factor, be it genetics, hormones, brain structure, etc. beyond the control of the individual that has a significant bearing on the sexual orientations of individuals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kromoh

First of all. Nothing is learnable if your genes don't allow it. I could take ears of classes for flying but I wouldn't fly if my genes didn't give me wings. If anything, the minimal genetic conclusion necessary to make is that sexuality isn't strict - males [i]can[/] like males and females can like females. If genes influence sexuality more than that is still unknown.

---

Technically, it's called a meme, and these little nuggets of information can override genetic material to an extent. Also, the way a person's brain operates may express/repress the expression of some genes (think of excessive stress, here). But I digress; I agree with you that genetics, or at least early development, shapes a person's sexual orientation. Bottom line: homosexuality is beyond the control of the individual. Now can we please stop persecuting them and move on as a society?

Quietly protesting the 10 character limit.

Well look, I am going to read a lot more choice material into homosexuality. I already have a book called "Queer Science" by Simon LeVay. If I read it insanely quickly then it would provide a lot more information for this so called debate that I started.

I think there are certain genetic factors that predetermine homosexuality but I know it is possible to 'grow into' an attraction you never had before. But this in of itself could be a genetic ability, and some people might not be able to do.

I think another important thing to remember is that it is perfectly possible to have a physical desire for the same sex but you could still have the emotional desire for the archetypal opposite sex. That is what confuses me.

I would bet that physical attraction comes first, and then your emotions develop out of it, but that's just a guess. I had to wait until I found myself attracted to boys to have any emotional desire at all. But that could just have been my age, I really don't know. I'm not a good example.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mario92

Seriously? You think someone would willingly give up their happy straight orientation for the heavy persecution faced by homosexuals now? For what? What benefit could there possibly be? Mate, you are wrong. Homosexuality is not a "learned" behavior. There is definitely a factor, be it genetics, hormones, brain structure, etc. beyond the control of the individual that has a significant bearing on the sexual orientations of individuals.

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There is no factor..it's just what you LIKE and what makes you happy. Porn being one way you turn gay "unintentionally"...for guys I mean. It has nothing to do with your genes..that is seriously the most retarded thing I've heard lol.

You turn gay because of your environment and surroundings and likes and dislikes.

A happy straight person WILL NOT turn bi-sexual or gay if it does not make them happy. Unless it's unintentional. ( refer to the porn thing )

A guy that always gets punked or beat up in school in school starts hanging with females all the time and imitates their behavior and gestures. He feels more comfortable like that. He's happy like that.

Another way is rape or molestation during childhood being another way you turn gay. Because when you were young that made you happy, in an unintentional way.

But you don't enter the world like that. Actually your psyche is what CONTROLS brain structure.

http://psychcentral.com/blog/archive...structure-yes/

Everything starts off SUBJECTIVELY...THEN it's objective.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

There is no factor..it's just what you LIKE and what makes you happy. Porn being one way you turn gay "unintentionally"...for guys I mean. It has nothing to do with your genes..that is seriously the most retarded thing I've heard lol.

You turn gay because of your environment and surroundings and likes and dislikes.

A happy straight person WILL NOT turn bi-sexual or gay if it does not make them happy. Unless it's unintentional. ( refer to the porn thing )

A guy that always gets punked or beat up in school in school starts hanging with females all the time and imitates their behavior and gestures. He feels more comfortable like that. He's happy like that.

Another way is rape or molestation during childhood being another way you turn gay. Because when you were young that made you happy, in an unintentional way.

But you don't enter the world like that. Actually your psyche is what CONTROLS brain structure.

http://psychcentral.com/blog/archive...structure-yes/

Everything starts off SUBJECTIVELY...THEN it's objective.

---

...you're seriously suggesting that porn will turn a person gay? Now THAT is just plain stupid.

http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight...es/011685.html

Yeah...no. What kind of propaganda have you been force-fed? Sure, the environment *may* have a bearing on a person's sexuality, but seriously? Porn will turn you gay? I've heard some dumb things, but that takes the cake.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_a_gay_...ecome_straight
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_a_stra...ll_of_a_sudden

If gay people can't become straight (and yes, many efforts have been made, with the vast majority turning out highly undesirable results), then it isn't going to go the other way. Sexual orientation is something that is set at a very early age.

Ok, I meant Porn "CAN" turn you gay...it's a matter of if you constantly climax while looking at another man's penis ejaculating. The image of that is burned into the subconscious. During climax your at a period of heightened awareness and "no-thought" and what you focus on goes right by the conscious mind. This is how subliminal messages/imaging and chaos/sigil/sex magic work...they bypass the logical/conscious mind.

Quote:

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If gay people can't become straight (and yes, many efforts have been made, with the vast majority turning out highly undesirable results)

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If gay people can't become straight, then deep down they just don't like the opposite sex. Science can't change what you like and how you feel about things/people.

I don't like Okra...I think it's disgusting...there is no scientific method or experiment that can make me like it. You see? I mean there are things I can do to make myself like Okra, but it would definitely not be called science.

Quote:

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There is no proof, either medically, genetically, culturally or historically that gays, bisexuals and lesbians are born that way and therefore cannot be changed. Sexual orientation is a choice. Straight people have chosen to become homosexuals; homosexuals have chosen to become bisexuals; and quite a number of homosexuals have chosen to become straight. Even some people even decide to cross the species boundary and choose to sleep with dogs and horses.

If homosexuals can claim to be born that way, then we can equally argue that pedophiles are born that way; that polygamists are born that way; that men having sex with their own daughters and sons are born that way. Or that brothers having sex with their sisters are born that way.

We all know that this is not the case. Homosexuals choose to be homosexuals. Lesbians choose to be lesbians. Bisexual people choose to be bisexual. It is understandable that life experiences could have contributed to their choice, the fact still remains that they chose who they sleep with.

Just like a heterosexual. You may say you have no control who you feel attracted to. The real truth is your choice is dictated by your life experiences and cultural upbringing. No heterosexual man was born to be "attracted only to tall, blond women". If he is sufficiently exposed to the likes of Tyra Banks, he might change his mind.
It would be interesting but not impossible. I guess you would have to appeal to certain elements such as comfort, fantasy, sexual desire, and interest.

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I simply allowed myself too much freedom to look at my heart's desire.

Could that be considered conscious perversion in some way?

I think that maybe Hard Wired is actually right but it would not work on all individuals.

got a question...if its true porn CAN turn you gay in such a way...how come gays dont become straight from watching women climax?

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Originally Posted by tkdyo

got a question...if its true porn CAN turn you gay in such a way...how come gays dont become straight from watching women climax?

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Well I get turned on by women climaxing, but I would define my sexuality by the gender I preffered and stuck with to find partners so I could still call myself gay. In the same way many straight men can get turned on by seeing other men becoming aroused.

Obviously if you're gay unless you really want to change yourself, you will stick with what you prefer otherwise you many not be sexually satisfied, if there is such a thing, and it would be frustrating.

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

I don't know much about gay 'culture'

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Everyone is looking for something different, hetero- or homosexual.
Some hetero women look for big, strong men; others prefer more petite fellows.
Some hetero men look for big, chubby women ('chubby chasers', as they are commonly called); others prefer more petite ladies.

You are putting across that men look for lady-like women and women look for manly men. With sexuality blossoming like it is, this is no longer the case. There are so many different preferences, too many to count or put into a category of what's common or uncommon.

The same goes for homosexuals. In gay 'culture', you've got bears (big, hairy men), twinks (small, young men), queens (the typical effeminate, flamboyant men); butch (manly women), lipsticks (feminine women), chapsticks (average women (between manly and feminine - unisex)).
There are many more terms but I'm not the king of gay culture either.

On top of that, with gay couples someone will take on a masculine role (dominant) and the other a feminine role (submissive). People joke and ask, "So who wears the pants in your relationship?"
A bear could be looking for a twink or a queen, a butch could be looking for a chapstick, a twink could be looking for another twink. But all of the gay couples I have met and currently know, whether they are both twinks, or one is a queen and one is a bear, there is a dominant partner and a submissive partner. It just falls into place naturally, especially when sex comes into play.

What I'm trying to say is that not all gay men are feminine and thus cannot have a fulfilling masculine partner and not all gay women are masculine and thus cannot have a fulfilling feminine partner.

I have no idea if this was stated already or where the conversation has gone, but I read the OP and decided to throw in my two cents.

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Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

There is no proof, either medically, genetically, culturally or historically that gays, bisexuals and lesbians are born that way and therefore cannot be changed. Sexual orientation is a choice. Straight people have chosen to become homosexuals; homosexuals have chosen to become bisexuals; and quite a number of homosexuals have chosen to become straight. Even some people even decide to cross the species boundary and choose to sleep with dogs and horses.

If homosexuals can claim to be born that way, then we can equally argue that pedophiles are born that way; that polygamists are born that way; that men having sex with their own daughters and sons are born that way. Or that brothers having sex with their sisters are born that way.

We all know that this is not the case. Homosexuals choose to be homosexuals. Lesbians choose to be lesbians. Bisexual people choose to be bisexual. It is understandable that life experiences could have contributed to their choice, the fact still remains that they chose who they sleep with.

Just like a heterosexual. You may say you have no control who you feel attracted to. The real truth is your choice is dictated by your life experiences and cultural upbringing. No heterosexual man was born to be "attracted only to tall, blond women". If he is sufficiently exposed to the likes of Tyra Banks, he might change his mind.
It would be interesting but not impossible. I guess you would have to appeal to certain elements such as comfort, fantasy, sexual desire, and interest.

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Haha, who wrote this? Is it backed up by any kind of research/evidence?

Because it just looks like ramblings from some ignorant fool. Really, comparing polygamy with parent-child incest and even pedophilia? Lmao.

That entire quote is somewhat broken. Yes, we do indeed choose who we sleep with, however, we can not control what we are attracted to. Whether it is something we're born with, or something that happens to use while we grow up doesn't really matter. Once we reach a certain point of maturity, that preference becomes hard wired, so to speak. Sure, you can subliminally get yourself to become turned on by certain images that you would not normal find arousing, but this does not mean you're attracted to the sex, at all.
There's a pretty big difference between "getting turned on by watching a guy having sex with another guy" and actually loving another guy.

And yes, I am of the belief that paedophiles are paedophiles either because of something genetic (born with it) or a preference that is wired into a person very early on in their life.

Everything we like, everything we dislike, it's something that is close to impossible to manipulate. Some people just pick the shorter straw, like paedophiles.

Check it out noobs:

Guy goes straight after 20 years of gaydom.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/lif...cle6990013.ece

Instinctive need to procreate > sexual fetish.

Check it out noobs:

Guy gets banned after 20 years of trolling.

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/member.php?u=15110

Staff > prejudicial members.

This post is a parody, duh

wow, did you really ban him? lol

I'll buy that predetermined thing Not!!!I had a landlord that was married and had children, he bought a gay bar and TURNED GAY!!!!!

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Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

wow, did you really ban him? lol

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You bet. I have zeh ultimate powahs. Beg me not to terminate your life.

Is the guy above me serious?

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Originally Posted by snuzpilot

I'll buy that predetermined thing Not!!!I had a landlord that was married and had children, he bought a gay bar and TURNED GAY!!!!!

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Correlation is not equal to causation. That is a post hoc fallacy, mate.

"homosexuals ought to have the foresight that it will probably be very hard to find a suitable partner."

- This sexual orientation and gender identity didn't exactly come with a manual and money-back guarantee when they manufactured us, or a warning that says "Partner sold separately."

"I have heard and can easily imagine that many gay men, who don't exactly have their feet on the ground, will squander a lot of their time in fleeting relationships or simply shagging a lot because they are unable to handle the emotional implications"

- I heard the same about straight men. I guess we should all be women then.

"however the people in question do so out of conformity or desperation, because they are confused."

- True that. And also because most people want a "masculine/feminine relationship," so in their attempt to conform to society's expectation, they become confused because their feelings oppose the confirmity. Also:

"Political correctness has gone so far through the roof that many people dismiss this obvious problem and make it out as if any man/man or woman/woman relationship can be just as fulfilling as any man/woman relationship. We don't live in a unisexual utopia; this is a lie."

- I think that applies to all relationships. We don't live in any kind of relationship utopia. Do you know anyone who has a "perfect" relationship that never experienced problems? Thought so. Straight or not, problems will come. A relationship can be as fulfilling as the two people involved want it to be.

" I wonder, what comes first for homosexuals? The physical attraction or the emotional attraction? "

It's the same question with guys. You know the stereotype about straight guys and straight girls in a relationship? Guys look for sex, and girls look for love. Fancy that.

Anyway, I like the honest ideas presented. I'll try to read the rest of the thread when I return (^_^)

This thread was a waste of time and energy, started by a mad man. You can ignore it.

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

No one move this to R/s! This is not about religion at all!

Some of you might have seen me sticking up for homosexuality in the past. What I want to get very clear from the start is that this is not a point against all types of homosexual behaviour, and it certainly does not pertain to what should be legal and illegal. Instead it is a warning, rather like you tell people to wear condomns without actually making it illegal for them not to (but I bloody would :angry:).

Studies such as this: Symmetry Of Homosexual Brain Resembles That Of Opposite Sex, Swedish Study Finds have been used in defense of the argument that homosexuality is predetermined. While this solves some issues, I believe it causes others.

I have had the notion for a long time that there is something fundamental in human nature about uniting masculine and feminine aspects in relationships. I don't know for certain whether this is instinctive, but it's obviously culturally and in most cases socially prefferable for one partner to adopt a masculine role, and another a feminine role.

I hear too many people saying, "Look, some men just love other men, some women just love other women, that's it", as if it's that simple. It's obviously not! If most homosexuals have the brain structure of the opposite sex, then who are they going to find when they seek another homosexual partner? In most cases, someone who has the same brain structure. In this case we no longer have, for example, two gay men, we have to gay man lesbians.

Why is this a problem? It is not. As long as you don't want a masculine/feminine relationship*. However, most people DO. And for good reason. Obviously, there are people out there who are exceptions to the rule (I consider myself to be one), and that's okay. However, homosexuals ought to have the foresight that it will probably be very hard to find a suitable partner.

*(having the physical body of the opposite psychological sex makes no immediate difference to the emotions of a relationship, so this doesn't count)

I don't know much about gay 'culture', but I have heard and can easily imagine that many gay men, who don't exactly have their feet on the ground, will squander a lot of their time in fleeting relationships or simply shagging a lot because they are unable to handle the emotional implications. If this is how someone prefers to live, this is not a problem, however the people in question do so out of conformity or desperation, because they are confused.

I think there should be big changes made in public education about homosexuality. Political correctness has gone so far through the roof that many people dismiss this obvious problem and make it out as if any man/man or woman/woman relationship can be just as fulfilling as any man/woman relationship. We don't live in a unisexual utopia; this is a lie.

Since both statistically (see link) and by general knowledge, we know that effeminite gay people tend to far outweigh their counterparts, this in theory renders the chances of successful gay relationships to be far less than straight ones. If this is not the case, and gay relationships are just as successful, then the only other option is that it should be possible for anyone to love anyone romantically regardless of whether they have a masculine or feminine psychology. A lot of straight people aren't going to like this.

However, I would be extremely skeptical of any study done in this field because it's quite possible that the vast majority of gay couples involve the minority group. Which leaves a lot of very unhappy, single gay people. I haven't looked this up yet, but if I get any replies I will provide more info when I can.

(if you are furious about my claims, please keep your responses passionately angry, so I know how it feels)

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Most of your claims are completely off base but I'd like to strike at what I believe is the root of your argument.

Life is about experimenting, and we're all experiments. Some of us are experiments that orbit closer to the mainstream, but that doesn't make us correct. Logic cannot be applied to how someone ought to behave, logic does not necessitate success. Life does not have to be logical all the time. People do not have to make logical sense in order to be functional. Nature does not follow logic or organization based on our human/cultural parameters. Nothing is off-limits to the experimental nature of existence. Nature considers every possibility because that is the best way to anticipate every possibility. Whether or not every experiment makes logical sense from your view of the world is irrelevant. Your view of the world is not true. No one's is, it's all translated from perception and inferred or assumed based on an infinitely tiny amount of knowledge. No outcome can be perfectly predicted, the only thing we are capable of assessing is probability. Therefore, we are incapable of determining objectively what a functional model is, no matter how much logic we apply. So live and let live because you don't have all the answers, you're just guessing like everybody else.

Reading the OP, I'm really trying to figure out what the post means. Could somebody translate it for me? From what I gathered OP has rambled about how gay people may not be able to hold relationships?

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Originally Posted by Marvo

This thread was a waste of time and energy, started by a mad man. You can ignore it.

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I think it's worth necro-ing this thread just for the humor value of post #76

Reason: insert

Given a choice, I would like to like a guy, but the only thing I ever like about them is they looked good, I doubt I can even last long with them. Weird as it sounds, lesbian couples however are turning me off, especially if one of the partner looks/dresses like a guy. I don't even know what my brain is thinking, not to mention a heterosexual person.

Just some random non homophobic straight dropping in to leave my opinion. I would have to say the only reason anyone who is straight has a problem with homosexuality is because they have mixed feelings themselves and don't like the feelings they can't control so they take it out on people who they are like deep down inside, and say its wrong, more to convince themselves if anything.

I think the same thing when a guy says the kind of music I listen to is gay. They probs only think its gay because the guy singing made them feel an emotion and they don't know how to deal with another guy making them feel emotions, especially the more seducing harmonies, so they say the music is gay. I never hear your music is bad, nope just gay.

Nah man, pretty much all anti-gay bigotry boils down to "ewwwwww grooooss" - that's it. Any rationalization about how it "destroys family" or any such bullshit is easy to dispel (with actual data), and pretty much everyone who is trying to limit their rights is responding to nothing else than a primitive, knee-jerk reaction. There isn't a drop of rationality behind their hatred.

http://st-eutychus.com/wp-content/up...Flowchart.jpeg