Thread: F**k the Troops

I am not going to argue the Iraq War from scratch any more, so here is one of the many threads where I argued about it. I want to add here that the "civilians" you are talking about are not targetted by us unless they are insurgents. The insurgents, on the other hand, do target civilians. You might want to start a thread on how much you hate them. A high percentage of the insurgents are from other countries, and many of them are Iranians being trained and funded by the governent of Iran. Here is something I said in the past about the justification for the war.

http://dreamviews.com/community/show...%27s+ceasefire

I will add this also. I know people in Iraq, and I know people who have been to Iraq. Something the media will never tell you is just how loved Bush is in Iraq. He saved them from one of the most horrific governments of all time. The country is in a transition phase now, but their future is bright. They were liberated. Do you have anything at all good to say about that aspect of the picture? The liberation of Iraq should in at least that aspect be a liberal's wet dream.

Taboooooo

If it was conscientiousness which brought the Americans to Iraq, one wonders why they haven't done anything for the many other failed states which would need a fraction of the effort to sort out.

Through its actions the U.S. has probably put its citizens in greater danger, I'd say. Iraq had no interest in or means to attack the U.S.

Originally Posted by Xei

If it was conscientiousness which brought the Americans to Iraq, one wonders why they haven't done anything for the many other failed states which would need a fraction of the effort to sort out.

Through its actions the U.S. has probably put its citizens in greater danger, I'd say. Iraq had no interest in or means to attack the U.S.

Read my first post in the thread I posted. I addressed that a bunch of times because Wendy kept arguing stuff like it. You are arguing what I come across all the time, which is the idea that the war has been about a single thing. It has been about MANY things. Also, no matter what the U.S. government's intentions have been, it is still great that Iraq now has a democracy where the people actually have rights. No matter what the deal is, at least that aspect in the picture is something it seems like we should all agree is something great.

Afghanistan?

This isn't about the War. This is about the Troops and all the people who get pissed when people "disrespect" the troops.

It is awe strikingly dim of people to lack the capacity to understand why there would be such a lack of respect towards people who storm into other countries with gun, grenades, bombs etc and murder innocent civilians, sometimes by the thousands including woman and children so that the governments corporate leaders can earn an extra profit or screw over the country another way to make themselves richer and/or more powerful. In my opinion, there's no reason to pay respect to someone for doing this, above the common mutual respect which I would give any human being. Maybe when things start affecting people like you rather than just common citizens in other countries then you will understand and perhaps grow to lose your respect for them as well.



And UM... There have been around 850,000 (based on the most conservative estimates) deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan combined since coalition forces stormed the countries. You're trying to tell me all or most of these deaths are justified?

What about the Afghan cleric who was killed by NATO forces a few days ago?

He wasn't targeted for being an insurgent, he was driving his two sons somewhere and pulled off th road to let the troops pass and was killed as a result.

And that's just the most recent report. I can guarantee the same has happened countless times.


700,000 or so Iraqi civilians have been brutally murdered. There is NO WAY that even 1/5th of those people deserved it.

Yes, things are getting slightly better for the people there, but not fast enough and not cleanly. They will be in upheaval for many years after this.
And the occupation is not happening in ways that are worth the deaths of much more than 1,000,000 people by the time this is over.

Personally I find anyone who joins the army in order to protect the US to be very naive. Sure I respect people who think they are defending our country. I have a lot of respect for people who stand up to that ideal. I just don't think they are the brightest bulb in the box.

Originally Posted by Alric

Personally I find anyone who joins the army in order to protect the US to be very naive. Sure I respect people who think they are defending our country. I have a lot of respect for people who stand up to that ideal. I just don't think they are the brightest bulb in the box.

What of official positions?

You know, ones that require medical experience? University education?

Just wondering if you apply that prejudice to all uniforms or just infantry.

~

Originally Posted by Bearsy

This isn't about the War. This is about the Troops and all the people who get pissed when people "disrespect" the troops.

It is awe strikingly dim of people to lack the capacity to understand why there would be such a lack of respect towards people who storm into other countries with gun, grenades, bombs etc and murder innocent civilians, sometimes by the thousands including woman and children so that the governments corporate leaders can earn an extra profit or screw over the country another way to make themselves richer and/or more powerful. In my opinion, there's no reason to pay respect to someone for doing this, above the common mutual respect which I would give any human being. Maybe when things start affecting people like you rather than just common citizens in other countries then you will understand and perhaps grow to lose your respect for them as well.



And UM... There have been around 850,000 (based on the most conservative estimates) deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan combined since coalition forces stormed the countries. You're trying to tell me all or most of these deaths are justified?

What about the Afghan cleric who was killed by NATO forces a few days ago?

He wasn't targeted for being an insurgent, he was driving his two sons somewhere and pulled off th road to let the troops pass and was killed as a result.

And that's just the most recent report. I can guarantee the same has happened countless times.


700,000 or so Iraqi civilians have been brutally murdered. There is NO WAY that even 1/5th of those people deserved it.

Yes, things are getting slightly better for the people there, but not fast enough and not cleanly. They will be in upheaval for many years after this.
And the occupation is not happening in ways that are worth the deaths of much more than 1,000,000 people by the time this is over.

We are fighting an insurgency. The people we are killing are not military, but they are not innocent people either. We have precision weapons that work really well, and we do not target civilians in this war. However, the insurgents do. They are the ones killing civilians. They would continue to do so if we left. It is democracy they are trying to destroy.

Did you read my old post?

If your goal is to protect America and you join any part of the military, then yea you are very naive. If you join as a career or for education reasons or anything like that, I would personally say its a poor choice, but at least your not naive.

You have to be honest with yourself. If you don't mind being a mercenary, then by all means join the army. Just don't pretend you are defending our freedom, because you are not.

Originally Posted by Alric

If your goal is to protect America and you join any part of the military, then yea you are very naive. If you join as a career or for education reasons or anything like that, I would personally say its a poor choice, but at least your not naive.

You have to be honest with yourself. If you don't mind being a mercenary, then by all means join the army. Just don't pretend you are defending our freedom, because you are not.

Yeah, I remember your position. You assume that the long world history of invasions and take overs is automatically over and that we don't need a military. Do you have any idea how much take over there has been in history? It is jaw droppingly ridiculous how much there has been. What you learned about in history class only scratches the surface with the most important and interesting ones. Why do you think we are exempt from them?

I just think we need to be realistic. If you want to think in historical terms, all you have to do is look at what happens when countries try to cross the ocean to invade other countries, far, far away from their own. It just isn't practical in most cases, and it isn't close to being practical in our case.

No one is going to sail across the ocean to invade the US, it would be a logistical nightmare. We could cut our army by 80%, our navy and air force in half, and we would easily crush anyone attempting to invade us. Heck, half the world could try to invade us and we would still crush them into the ground.

Besides, we are not even talking about our defense. We are talking about sending troops half way around the world. It is totally impossible for a country like iran or iraq to invade the US. That isn't even on the table. No one thinks it is possible. We are talking about terrorists attacks. And since when did a 80 million dollar bomber, ever stop a terrorist attack?

Originally Posted by Alric

I just think we need to be realistic. If you want to think in historical terms, all you have to do is look at what happens when countries try to cross the ocean to invade other countries, far, far away from their own. It just isn't practical in most cases, and it isn't close to being practical in our case.

No one is going to sail across the ocean to invade the US, it would be a logistical nightmare. We could cut our army by 80%, our navy and air force in half, and we would easily crush anyone attempting to invade us. Heck, half the world could try to invade us and we would still crush them into the ground.

Obviously you are ignorant to the cold war, pearl harbour, cuban guerrilla insurgents, and a significant chunk of American war history.

Besides, we are not even talking about our defense. We are talking about sending troops half way around the world. It is totally impossible for a country like iran or iraq to invade the US. That isn't even on the table. No one thinks it is possible. We are talking about terrorists attacks. And since when did a 80 million dollar bomber, ever stop a terrorist attack?

You do realize that these countries abduct tourists, cameramen, news reporters, etc. right?

Also, they have sent the message that they are "sending messages" to America:



Furthermore, there is obviously economical functions to war too that you are ignoring. Remember, you are not out a recession yet just because you have a few dollars in your bank account. Fortunately, wars actually help this.

In addition, do you realize that the only free country is one that is not a country?

How could you ever have a sovereign power while maintaining total freedom?

I think you are either fringing on political hypocrisy, or anarchy.

~

hooray (semi) anarchy!

Troops, as of now, voluntarily sign up to do the government's bidding. I have no respect for people who do that.

The US wasn't invaded during the cold war. Pearl harbour was never invaded either, only bombed. And guerrilla warfare only works in defending an area, not invading another country. Most of american war history is the US invading areas around us, not far off countries invading us. And the times we were attacked from forign countries, they normally had a base in the area. So I am really not sure what you are talking about.

Yea and terrorists in south and centeral america abducts something like 20 times as many people, as middle eastern countries. Yet no one cares about them, do they? Besides, our huge military isn't used for saving people most of the time.

And no war isn't good for the economy. War is part of what is causing our huge debt and is a large part of what is destroying our economy at the moment. In fact, we will soon go bankrupt as a country, unless we stop the wars that are doing so much damage to our economy.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

Troops, as of now, voluntarily sign up to do the government's bidding. I have no respect for people who do that.

you cant judge them because they signed up. you have no idea of what was going on in that persons life before they decided to join.

Originally Posted by Akono

you cant judge them because they signed up. you have no idea of what was going on in that persons life before they decided to join.

I can and do. Just because they sign up so the gov. can pay for their college education or help them out financially (if that's what you're getting at) does not justify them signing up.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

Troops, as of now, voluntarily sign up to do the government's bidding. I have no respect for people who do that.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

I can and do. Just because they sign up so the gov. can pay for their college education or help them out financially (if that's what you're getting at) does not justify them signing up.

So you're saying someone who's in a situation where they don't have any other means of employment (look at the unemployment rate), or financial ability to get into college doesn't get your respect? Everyone doesn't have all of those luxuries to do whatever they want to do when they graduate. And once they're in, they're not crying to get out of the situation they're in.

Someone who chooses to give up there liberties as a person in order to better whatever situation they're living in will always have my respect, regardless of what the government makes them do. There are other people who give up there liberties because they resort to other things and end up in jail.

Blueline, would just like to inform you to the fact that you are a massive piece of shit.

Profile says 17. Big surprise there. Why don't you go back to complaining about how sucky everything is while you text your friends inbetween CoD matches and rubbing your dick. You are such an ignorant mother fucker, thinking you're so god damn enlightened becuase you aren't "some tool who signs their life away to the military" such an ignorant piece of shit. It's people like you who give Americans a bad name.

Originally Posted by Akono

Someone who chooses to give up there liberties as a person in order to better whatever situation they're living in will always have my respect, regardless of what the government makes them do. There are other people who give up there liberties because they resort to other things and end up in jail.

Damn straight.

Originally Posted by Alric

I just think we need to be realistic. If you want to think in historical terms, all you have to do is look at what happens when countries try to cross the ocean to invade other countries, far, far away from their own. It just isn't practical in most cases, and it isn't close to being practical in our case.

No one is going to sail across the ocean to invade the US, it would be a logistical nightmare. We could cut our army by 80%, our navy and air force in half, and we would easily crush anyone attempting to invade us. Heck, half the world could try to invade us and we would still crush them into the ground.

Besides, we are not even talking about our defense. We are talking about sending troops half way around the world. It is totally impossible for a country like iran or iraq to invade the US. That isn't even on the table. No one thinks it is possible. We are talking about terrorists attacks. And since when did a 80 million dollar bomber, ever stop a terrorist attack?

You said this...

Originally Posted by Alric

If your goal is to protect America and you join any part of the military, then yea you are very naive. If you join as a career or for education reasons or anything like that, I would personally say its a poor choice, but at least your not naive.

You have to be honest with yourself. If you don't mind being a mercenary, then by all means join the army. Just don't pretend you are defending our freedom, because you are not.

That is not just a dis on the Iraq War or a call to shrink the military. It is a statement against military itself. You have suggested before that we don't need a military. We do.

The reason nobody would invade us is that our military is so powerful. Could we afford to make it somewhat less powerful? Maybe so. But keep in mind that countries with militaries have been invaded zillions of times, even from across oceans. The biggest invasion by ocean of all time was the Normandy invasion in World War II, for example. Plus, we are connected by land to Central America and South America. We also border Mexico. I know none of them or anybody across the ocean would dare invade us. Let's keep it that way. We did this to German occupied France...



Let's always make sure it never happens here.

Stopping terrorist attacks is what the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are about, but that does not mean we have fighter jets and tanks to stop airport bombers. We are transforming the cultural and intellectual climate in the Middle East so such scum won't be so much of a factor in the future.

Originally Posted by Akono

So you're saying someone who's in a situation where they don't have any other means of employment (look at the unemployment rate), or financial ability to get into college doesn't get your respect? Everyone doesn't have all of those luxuries to do whatever they want to do when they graduate. And once they're in, they're not crying to get out of the situation they're in.

Don't twist my words. I stated people that voluntarily join the military don't get my respect, even if they're only joining due to financial/unemployment abilities. They will end up doing the government's bidding in one way or another.

Of course, that doesn't mean I have some intense hatred for military personnel. One of my best friends got accepted to Valley Forge, a military school. Do I hate him? No. He's a cool guy. Do I respect his decisions? No.

Originally Posted by Akono

Someone who chooses to give up there liberties as a person in order to better whatever situation they're living in will always have my respect, regardless of what the government makes them do. There are other people who give up there liberties because they resort to other things and end up in jail.

So you're in favor of abandoning principles and freedom to simply "get ahead?" I don't intend to twist your words or misinterpret them, but that's what the quoted piece looks like to me. Maybe you could clarify?

Originally Posted by CanceledCzech

Blueline, would just like to inform you to the fact that you are a massive piece of shit.

Profile says 17. Big surprise there. Why don't you go back to complaining about how sucky everything is while you text your friends inbetween CoD matches and rubbing your dick. You are such an ignorant mother fucker, thinking you're so god damn enlightened becuase you aren't "some tool who signs their life away to the military" such an ignorant piece of shit. It's people like you who give Americans a bad name.

Cool story bro. If you would like to try again with less ad hominems, by all means, please do so. I don't argue with people that call personal attacks "arguments."

what in the crap, isn't there a big difference between WWII and arming ourselves to the point where we have enough explosives to blow up the planet several times over?? give de-militarization/armament a chance please.

Originally Posted by cygnus

what in the crap, isn't there a big difference between WWII and arming ourselves to the point where we have enough explosives to blow up the planet several times over?? give de-militarization/armament a chance please.

You are talking about our nukes. We gathered them during the Cold War, which from our side was about scaring the Hell out of the Soviet Union and, as it turns out, bankrupting it so it would cease to exist. The strategy worked. I don't think we have to be able to blow up the world many times over, but we do need to be able to handle some insane shit. Plenty of insane stuff has happened in history to prove that.