Thread: New Healthcare Bill Passed - Your thoughts?

It just passed 1.5 hours ago but, what is it about? Click this link to find out.

Do you like what's in it? And no, you don't have to read all 1,000 pages of the bill to get the gist of it. However, a few bullet points are below.

Negative - Within two years? EVERYONE will be required to buy health care insurance. No exceptions. If you do not, you will be issued rising fines until you do.

- Taxes are being raised b/c the government is taking over the health care system.

Positive - No longer can Americans with pre-existing conditions be turned down or have their health insurance rates jacked up because of the kind of condition(s) they have.

- Will cover "children" up to the age of 26 on parents health coverage.

For more, click the link above.


Discuss~

I watched this thing get passed by both Senate and House. Jeez the republicans got so fired up I was waiting for a freakin' brawl.

I support this. If it means no one can be turned down, have their rates jacked up, or be dropped because they will hurt business. And... my dad has been threatned to be dropped by our insurance providers because he has become too much of a risk (he has mesothelioma, but luckily he has been recovering well).

I also feel like there are too many sheep out there being hearded by people like say, Glenn Beck. I don't mean to make attacks on anyone, but that dude is freagin rediculous. Plus, how people were throwing around the term "socialist" so much as a means of scaring people upsets me, especially if it's being used by those who already have government provided health-care (military, medicare, ect). People need to think a little more about what the terms actually mean. Do we really need to Capitalize... on health?

Jeez. I'm curious on your thought Jeff.

I voted for Obama so that I could have health care. The entire system as it is, is so messed up my own mother couldn't even find me an affordable health care package EVEN THOUGH THAT'S HER JOB! She's a health care agent (and suffering financially too)

I realize this package isn't perfect. But I honestly don't care. Something has to change. Something has to be done. It's called the Great American Experiment for a reason, we have to try our best. It's not going to be perfect, but sitting on our asses and accepting the status quo is the worst alternative ever. No offense, but I dont think the republicans understand what it means to be suffering financially. They just seem to toss around the word socialism and make everyone who is poor out to be a lazy slum who just wants the government to pay their way.

My friend went to graduate school and needed that socialist government money to feed himself. How was he lazy? He did exactly what we as a society said you're supposed to do. And it didn't work. He's job hunting, and it hasn't been easy.

And I don't think republicans get it.

Two, I'm glad this is over, for now. For now Obama can finally move on. Its time to fix the economy, its time to fix education. Too many of us bachelors and graduates are struggling, and are finding that are student loans are now eating us alive.

Arg! I just wrote a long post and it got lost in transit. I'll try to piece it back together;

What not many are talking about is the fact that the changes won't come into full effect until 2014, but they will start collecting the extra taxes in 2011. This seems to me like a desperate attempt to prop up the ruined economy for just a little while longer. Healthcare is the new economic bubble. If the government projections of cost end up being way lower than the reality (which is usually the case) then this bubble could potentially only have a few years of life in it, and since these things follow exponential scales, that means the next bubble will be lucky to last months, if we even survive as a nation that long.

I'd also like to point out that something you said in the OP is not true, Jeff. Insurance companies can still jack up rates for people with existing conditions. The regulations for rates were dropped from the final bill. With a promise to "fix it later".

In fact, I just googled "fix it later" to find some smarmy picture to link and found that almost all of the top searches actually directly related to the bullshit claims of "fix it later" for the healthcare bill.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Healthcare is the new economic bubble.

So what will happen if this bubble bursts before we can do anything about it?

I have full confidence in this thing, however I admit it's a little scary that we are doing this while we are in so much debt, but somehow it's suppose to reduce our deficit. I'm not sure how that's going to work exactly.

But I still have good feelings. I mean we have the sh_ttiest health-care system among other well-developed nations, we had to do something. Especially when it's costing lives.

Socialized medicine is a great way for a socialist administration to move the country toward full blown socialism, and socialism has always been a disaster. Get ready for long lines, an outrageous amount of government control, and life saving pills getting banned because the bill payer (the fucking government) deems them too expensive. The government is getting way too powerful, and I don't understand why so many people trust government so much. What has government done to earn your trust? The government has no right to force people to buy anything, and that makes the bill unconstitutional. I am pretty sure the Supreme Court will shoot down at least that much of it, but I think it was meant to be a temporary measure on the way to 100% socialist healthcare. I am baffled over what is happening to my country. Socialism doesn't work. It is a disaster. Look at history. Prohibition and socialism have both proven to be horrific policies for countries, yet nations keep practicing them. Why don't people learn from history? The worst of it keeps repeating itself.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Socialized medicine is a great way for a socialist administration to move the country toward full blown socialism, and socialism has always been a disaster. Get ready for long lines, an outrageous amount of government control, and life saving pills getting banned because the bill payer (the fucking government) deems them too expensive.

Socialism always a disaster? Even in general that's an arguable statement, but I believe it has been quite successful with regards to health care. Proof being nearly every developed country has some form of universal health care. Even the life expectancy of Cubans is higher than that of Americans for god's sake...

I've also never heard of a government denying a kind of treatment because it was too expensive either (which American health insurance companies do).

The government is getting way too powerful, and I don't understand why so many people trust government so much. What has government done to earn your trust?

This I find interesting. For a country that prides itself on democracy and representation, Americans are very untrusting of their government. And who can blame them, since their government tends to act against the best interest of its citizens quite often. But some are losing sight that they do not live in a sort of "elected dictatorship", and that the government is of the people, by the people, for the people, etc. This is a real problem, as the government should be a tool of the people, not a constant adversary/hinderance. The libertarian solution to this is to minimize the government as much as possible. To me that just dulls the tool, better to raise accountability, transparency and the "say-so" of the average citizen in political affairs.


Anyways back on topic. Although I agree that the US is an a desperate need of a health care system change, I do believe that the timing (tail end of a recession) is pretty bad and thus the whole process will be hindered. Even if the end product is less expensive than the current system, change will cost money.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Socialized medicine is a great way for a socialist administration to move the country toward full blown socialism, and socialism has always been a disaster. Get ready for long lines, an outrageous amount of government control, and life saving pills getting banned because the bill payer (the fucking government) deems them too expensive. The government is getting way too powerful, and I don't understand why so many people trust government so much. What has government done to earn your trust? The government has no right to force people to buy anything, and that makes the bill unconstitutional. I am pretty sure the Supreme Court will shoot down at least that much of it, but I think it was meant to be a temporary measure on the way to 100% socialist healthcare. I am baffled over what is happening to my country. Socialism doesn't work. It is a disaster. Look at history. Prohibition and socialism have both proven to be horrific policies for countries, yet nations keep practicing them. Why don't people learn from history? The worst of it keeps repeating itself.

The government needs to be taken out by the back of the barn and shot like old yeller.

They are just going way to far now, and the people will not sit with their thumbs up their asses much longer, I can hear a storm brewing in the nation, I will just sit back and watch the mayhem that will most likely be headed to our near future, damnit, why couldn't I have been born in a different country.

Edit: oh wait every other damn country is on a shamble universal system too nearly.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Socialized medicine is a great way for a socialist administration to move the country toward full blown socialism, and socialism has always been a disaster. Get ready for long lines, an outrageous amount of government control, and life saving pills getting banned because the bill payer (the fucking government) deems them too expensive. The government is getting way too powerful, and I don't understand why so many people trust government so much. What has government done to earn your trust? The government has no right to force people to buy anything, and that makes the bill unconstitutional. I am pretty sure the Supreme Court will shoot down at least that much of it, but I think it was meant to be a temporary measure on the way to 100% socialist healthcare. I am baffled over what is happening to my country. Socialism doesn't work. It is a disaster. Look at history. Prohibition and socialism have both proven to be horrific policies for countries, yet nations keep practicing them. Why don't people learn from history? The worst of it keeps repeating itself.

1. Sweden.
2. Prohibition Is not a bad idea, alcohol is potentially the worst drug out there. It didn't work because people were to stupid to realize that alcohol actually kills brain cells and does all kinds of other damage unlike some that only inhibit enzymes, causing certain receptors to be temporarily disabled.
3. not related to this post or anything, but i just wanted to point out that, on your picture of the socialisms, the caption under marxism that is supposed to look like change actually sounds like "sndeegz" lol. just thought that was funny

BTW, I am not for or against healthcare, at least with our current government. i am, however for socialism with a government that is not corrupt. Also, Marxism and Hitler's idea of socialism are the same but with different main focus points.

Originally Posted by louie54

Jeez. I'm curious on your thought Jeff.

Honestly? I'm not sure.. It's too early to tell.

Originally Posted by Jeff777

Honestly? I'm not sure.. It's too early to tell.

Yeah, you maybe right. I just think we should at least give it a chance.

And I pulled out the deficit numbers in my last post because I keep getting different results on google, and I forgot what Obama said in his speech.

Originally Posted by Lawmakers before the law is passed

Just give it a chance.

Originally Posted by Citizens after the law is passed

Alright, we gave it chance and we don't like it.

Originally Posted by Lawmakers after the law is passed

You had your chance.

(hood)

Maybe you'll be surprised. I hope that I won't.

Originally Posted by Jeff777

Negative - Within two years? EVERYONE will be required to buy health care insurance. No exceptions. If you do not, you will be issued rising fines until you do.

In other words people will be put into jail for failing to buy health insurance? If you are to poor to buy health insurance, you will be fined? How does any of this help people?

Originally Posted by Jeff777

Positive - No longer can Americans with pre-existing conditions be turned down or have their health insurance rates jacked up because of the kind of condition they have.

This isn't a positive, this is a negative. This isn't health insurance, its wealth redistribution. Insurance by defenition doesn't cover pre existing things.

Its like getting into a car accident and buying insurance afterwards? How does that make any damn sense? All this does is increase health insurance costs for everyone who legitimately need insurance.

I'm still undecided on this plan. I'm all for eliminating industry practices that lead to people being refused coverage or dropped when they need care the most, but how well the state exchanges and the rest will work really depends on how it's all implemented. As an uninsured small-business employee, I'm thinking it will fall on me to find a plan, and I'm really hoping it doesn't amount to being forced into some kind of near-useless minimum coverage at rates slightly reduced from the ones I can't afford now :/

We'll see if the state exchanges do anything to introduce competition, but without the public option, I'm highly skeptical.

It is pretty disappointing that certain democrats demanded that Obama double-super-pinky-swear that it's not part of a master plan to kill teh babehz. If all the Chicken Little garbage about Socialism weren't proof enough, you can tell this country has been dragged far right of center when the whole GOP goes off to pout in a corner and we're STILL held hostage by the holier-than-thou brigade.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

I'm saying for markets to remain competitive, and especially to be competing on the basis of what they actually deliver to consumers, requires regulation.

You can say whatever you like, but whether it is correct is another matter.

Businesses are no more invulnerable to corruption than governments, and quarterly profits are no less fallible than regular elections at keeping people accountable. The profit motive is not good or bad, simply powerful. Like elemental fire, it has the power to fuel growth, but also the power to destroy.

Sad attempt at a platitude?

Most of us have come to terms with the fact that certain fields require more stringent rules and oversight lest the profit motive work against the general welfare: law enforcement, fire & rescue, and, most people agree, education, for instance. The question in this debate is whether access to health care is such a field.

"Most" people can agreed that slavery was good. "Most" people were wrong.

Originally Posted by Jeff777

It just passed 1.5 hours ago but, what is it about? Click this link to find out.

Do you like what's in it? And no, you don't have to read all 1,000 pages of the bill to get the gist of it. However, a few bullet points are below.

Negative - Within two years? EVERYONE will be required to buy health care insurance. No exceptions. If you do not, you will be issued rising fines until you do.

- Taxes are being raised b/c the government is taking over the health care system.

Positive - No longer can Americans with pre-existing conditions be turned down or have their health insurance rates jacked up because of the kind of condition(s) they have.

- Will cover "children" up to the age of 26 on parents health coverage.

For more, click the link above.


Discuss~

I've got three jolly questions.

If someone is unemployed, do they automatically get Healthcare? If someone is unemployed, are they penalized with the threat of jail, a fine, or in any other manner for not having Healthcare? Also, will it pave the way for mandatory vaccinations as preventive medicine.

With the current state of the economy, there is a huge base of unemployment and it is rising. When looking at Healthcare from a different perspective, it could be utilized to recoup tax dollars lost from citizens not paying taxes due to being unemployed. Basically, the government needs tax dollars,or maybe due to the economic crisis our current Healthcare industry is on the brink of collapse without government aid of tax dollars.

Interestingly, I haven't seen these three questions addressed, when in reality they are very serious.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

You can say whatever you like, but whether it is correct is another matter.



Sad attempt at a platitude?



"Most" people can agreed that slavery was good. "Most" people were wrong.

No U R

Originally Posted by ArcanumNoctis

I've got three jolly questions.

If someone is unemployed, do they automatically get Healthcare? If someone is unemployed, are they penalized with the threat of jail, a fine, or in any other manner for not having Healthcare? Also, will it pave the way for mandatory vaccinations as preventive medicine.

With the current state of the economy, there is a huge base of unemployment and it is rising. When looking at Healthcare from a different perspective, it could be utilized to recoup tax dollars lost from citizens not paying taxes due to being unemployed. Basically, the government needs tax dollars,or maybe due to the economic crisis our current Healthcare industry is on the brink of collapse without government aid of tax dollars.

Interestingly, I haven't seen these three questions addressed, when in reality they are very serious.

1) I think pretty much all the unemployed would be covered by the medicaid expansion, though not "automatically"--you'd still have to apply
2) I'm not 100% certain, but I would think if you fail to apply for medicaid, you would be subject to the tax penalty
3) Many vaccinations are already mandatory in most of the country if you want your kids to attend a public school, but as far as seasonal flu vaccines and the like, the most they could do is tie it to your premiums or eligibility--i.e. if you don't get a flu shot, you pay more or have to switch insurers. The most they're likely to do is say, "Hey, you should get a flu shot."

Check out what Nancy Pelosi tried to get passed.

http://republicans.waysandmeans.hous...umentID=153583


• Section 7203 – misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.

• Section 7201 – felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years.”

How do you like that?

How is that different from any other tax evasion penalties?

Originally Posted by Spartiate

How is that different from any other tax evasion penalties?

It involves being charged a ton of money for just sitting there, not for working or buying anything. It is flat out extortion. It is what the mafia used to engage in in the Bronx. I am not sure how it relates to the Pelosi bill, but the bill that got passed does not allow room for honest mistakes and IRS discretion on determining good faith. There are no excuses. If you don't pay, you get fined to Hell and back. This is a huge leap in the direction of totalitarianism. Government oppression is getting way out of hand. Horrific stuff is happening to my country.

Do you honestly support the idea of five years in prison for not getting your own fucking health insurance? Not avoiding getting your children health insurance or paying taxes in general. Your OWN health insurance! How nosy and controlling is that? What is your definition freedom? Do you value freedom at all?

This stuff pisses me off so bad I am not that far from becoming an anarchist. Considering the history of European totalitarian regimes and how they kept popping up even in countries that had been free, why do people still trust governments with such gains in power? I hear Democrats now talking about how Republicans should be put in jail for inciting hate by speaking against the bill. What is happening? The entire Bill of Rights is under attack now. The prospect of a totalitarian regime completely taking over is not unrealistic. Some serious shit is going on here.

Has anyone here actually read the 1,000 page Healthcare bill?

Originally Posted by ArcanumNoctis

Has anyone here actually read the 1,000 page Healthcare bill?

No, and neither have Obama or the members of Congress other than the people who wrote the bill. The bill is about 2,000 pages.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

No, and neither have Obama or the members of Congress other than the people who wrote the bill. The bill is about 2,000 pages.

2,000 pages? That is twice as insane.