Thread: New Healthcare Bill Passed - Your thoughts?

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Does it pay for daycares, sanitation services, college?

Government paid public school is available to any kid who wants it, starting in kindergarten. Grants are available for college to many students, and many of our colleges/universities are government schools. Sanitation services are paid for by the government. So are cops, firemen, game wardens, etc. There is an outrageous amount of stuff our government pays for. I think law enforcement and military should be government run and funded, but I am for privatizing pretty much everything else.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Effective how? If you mean in making profits, then yes I agree...

Do you have experience with medical staff in countries with universal health care? I don't see how you can say they're lazier, and they're still some of the most well-paid professions one can do. I've never heard of a canadian that has been refused medical treatment. How is a doctor who refuses to treat a patient effective. First do no harm...

Effective at encouraging hard work. Here, the better a doctor does, the more business he gets. Profit is an incentive for hard work, dedication, and inventiveness.

People don't often get turned down for treatment here, and it never happens in emergency situations. If a doctor thinks he can make any money, he goes for it. Doctors are required to give emergency treatment to people who need it.

Health insurance companies don't make a very large profit. In fact, they make a lot less than most major businesses. Insurance companies offer exactly what they can affored to pay out. Obviously they can't give you unlimited coverage or they would go bankrupt.

If you want to improve health care, then you need to cut health costs. You need to cut costs. Insurance has nothing to do with making health care cheaper for people.

That is why its goofy and assbackwards to say everyone needs health insurance and your going to force insurance companies to cover sick people. It is only going to increase the price of all insurance every where.

Same thing goes for with taxing everyone, then giving away free health care to everyone. That can't possibly reduce costs. Its impossible, and doesn't make any logical sense. Its only going to increase costs for everyone involved.

Spreading the cost around to everyone, never makes things cheaper. Since everyone has to pay, even if they are never sick. Then the added bureaucracy only costs more money, so you dont even end up with as much and you are paying in anyway.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Effective at encouraging hard work. Here, the better a doctor does, the more business he gets. Profit is an incentive for hard work, dedication, and inventiveness.

People don't often get turned down for treatment here, and it never happens in emergency situations. If a doctor thinks he can make any money, he goes for it. Doctors are required to give emergency treatment to people who need it.

So our doctors are unmotivated and inferior?

And I think people get denied treatment more often than you think, but regardless, that it happens at all is inexcusable. It's not emergency treatment that's typically the issue, but long term treatment where insurance companies (if you're insured) try to bail on you. It really sucks to have to deal with money issues and a health care provider that's trying to get out of helping you when you're fighting a debilitating illness.

Originally Posted by Alric

Spreading the cost around to everyone, never makes things cheaper. Since everyone has to pay, even if they are never sick. Then the added bureaucracy only costs more money, so you dont even end up with as much and you are paying in anyway.

Then why do Americans pay more for health care than any other country?

Its because the US is sue happy, and doctors can't work without having huge amounts of insurance to cover them incase they make a mistake and get sued for 50 millions dollars because you accidently lost a toe.

Because people are idiots and buy expensive brand name medication, instead of generic stuff that is a fraction of the price. People are idiots and gets tests they don't need done at the doctors office. This is normally because they have insurance and insurance covers it so they want the most bang for their buck and get the good stuff and wasteful tests just to be sure. Which really just increases the price for everyone.

There is also the stupid government regulations that increase the cost of everything, because they butt in just cause a huge mess. This is just going to get worse with them going full steam into the health care system. Some regulation is obviously needed, but not what we have now.

Lastly, because everyone in the US is overweight and unhealthy, because we eat junk food nonstop and do not work out or anything.

Though health care really isn't that expensive for the most of us. Most people my age are fine. We can live with 20-50 dollars a month health insurance. In fact I had like a 30 dollar a month plan, and it covered me up to 200,000 dollars in coverage. For most serious injuries, that is more than enough.

Health insurance really doesn't get expensive until you are a person who a chronic condition and constantly treatment. But if that is you, then you dont get insurance. Insurance is for emergencies not preexisting or chronic conditions.

What people are always asking for, which they never get is healthcare reform. They want to change the the malpractice laws, so its not so insanely stupid and wasteful. They want to cut down all the bullshit paperwork that does nothing but increase the cost of everything.

Hitting the program with the old bureaucracy hammer, throwing more money at the system, and adding on more wasteful regulations doesn't and cant not possibly reduce health care costs.

My biggest issue with it is when the government starts prioritizing. Like leaving an old person with a hip injury to suffer for months and months, because they can't get fit in. This does NOT happen with the way are system used to be.

Originally Posted by Alric

Its because the US is sue happy, and doctors can't work without having huge amounts of insurance to cover them incase they make a mistake and get sued for 50 millions dollars because you accidently lost a toe.

Because people are idiots and buy expensive brand name medication, instead of generic stuff that is a fraction of the price. People are idiots and gets tests they don't need done at the doctors office. This is normally because they have insurance and insurance covers it so they want the most bang for their buck and get the good stuff and wasteful tests just to be sure. Which really just increases the price for everyone.

There is also the stupid government regulations that increase the cost of everything, because they butt in just cause a huge mess. This is just going to get worse with them going full steam into the health care system. Some regulation is obviously needed, but not what we have now.

Lastly, because everyone in the US is overweight and unhealthy, because we eat junk food nonstop and do not work out or anything.

You sure it has nothing to do with insurance companies trying to make a buck?

Health insurance really doesn't get expensive until you are a person who a chronic condition and constantly treatment. But if that is you, then you dont get insurance. Insurance is for emergencies not preexisting or chronic conditions.

So what about these people. Should they just go die in a hole?

Most insurance companies make about a 4-5 percent profit. No matter how anti capitalist you may be, you can't blame our insurance companies, since they are barely making any profit at all. If they gave any more benefits that 4 percent drops to 0 and they go bankrupt.

People who get chronic health problems, need to take responsbility for themself and pay for the medication and stuff that they use. That said, there are tons of charities and people and even hospitals that give aid, and free health care to people who need it. So its not like we need to force taxes on people, and increases costs for everyone. And no one is telling people to go into a hole and die.

Originally Posted by Alric

People who get chronic health problems, need to take responsbility for themself and pay for the medication and stuff that they use. That said, there are tons of charities and people and even hospitals that give aid, and free health care to people who need it. So its not like we need to force taxes on people, and increases costs for everyone. And no one is telling people to go into a hole and die.

This is outrageous. So if you're diagnosed with a severe cancer, you should fork up the tens of thousands of dollars necessary for treatment? How many people can do that? You're not even able to hold a job because you're ill, it's not the time to be charged the price of a car every month. If you're faced with a serious illness in the US, you have to chose between death/disability or financial destitution.

Originally Posted by Alric

Most insurance companies make about a 4-5 percent profit. No matter how anti capitalist you may be, you can't blame our insurance companies, since they are barely making any profit at all. If they gave any more benefits that 4 percent drops to 0 and they go bankrupt.

This has always been my beleif about our health insurance system, as a private company they have to make a profit, and when they're providing not-so-good coverage at the rates they charge with a profit margin of only 4%, it should become clear that the current system is quite impractical when it comes to providing health care. Health care should be a service, not a product.

Originally Posted by Alric

People who get chronic health problems, need to take responsbility for themself and pay for the medication and stuff that they use. That said, there are tons of charities and people and even hospitals that give aid, and free health care to people who need it. So its not like we need to force taxes on people, and increases costs for everyone. And no one is telling people to go into a hole and die.

That's like telling a city bum to go buy a house.

So instead, you find out you have cancer, you go out and get a 50 dollar per month insurance plan and expect them to pay tens of thousands of dollars for you? That is so wrong, I dont even know where to start. How does paying someone a hundred dollars entitle you tens of thousands back?

Now if you have insurance, and suddenly find out you have cancer, that is covered. That falls under extreme unexpected problems. Insurance is made to cover people like that, and it will treat you.

Getting deadly cancer had nothing to do with what I was talking about. I am talking about things like people who asthma for their entire life, or diabetics. If you have had that for years, insurance is not for you. Insurance is for unexpected and sudden problems that are unlikely but if they happen would cost you a great amount of money.

Insurance isn't for every day treatment.

As for health care being a service, it is a service. A service that costs money. Someone has to pay. Why should people not getting any benefit from it be paying for you however?

Originally Posted by Alric

So instead, you find out you have cancer, you go out and get a 50 dollar per month insurance plan and expect them to pay tens of thousands of dollars for you? That is so wrong, I dont even know where to start. How does paying someone a hundred dollars entitle you tens of thousands back?

Now if you have insurance, and suddenly find out you have cancer, that is covered. That falls under extreme unexpected problems. Insurance is made to cover people like that, and it will treat you.

Getting deadly cancer had nothing to do with what I was talking about. I am talking about things like people who asthma for their entire life, or diabetics. If you have had that for years, insurance is not for you. Insurance is for unexpected and sudden problems that are unlikely but if they happen would cost you a great amount of money.

Insurance isn't for every day treatment.

As for health care being a service, it is a service. A service that costs money. Someone has to pay. Why should people not getting any benefit from it be paying for you however?

You're basically pointing out a flaw in the insurance system altogether which I don't even support. What are these people without insurance supposed to do? They're gonna die without health care, do you think cancer (example) targets only the rich? And even if you are insured, insurance companies will do their best to get out of providing treatment. Is it really time to deal with that kind of bullshit when you're fighting for your life?

And diabetes, asthma... those are life threatening illnesses. What if you can't afford medication?

That is what all the charities and stuff are for. You can find a lot of hosptials and stuff that offer free and discounted care as well. Havn't you ever seen or heard about the fundraisers for that sort of stuff, or seen people raising money so they could get expensive treatment? It happens all the time.

And as UM pointed out already, in an emergency hospitals never refuse service to someone because of money issues. If you are at a hospital and you are in danger of dying, you get treatment. No one is ever left to die.

Acting like that happens all the time is just stupid.

Originally Posted by Alric

That is what all the charities and stuff are for. You can find a lot of hosptials and stuff that offer free and discounted care as well. Havn't you ever seen or heard about the fundraisers for that sort of stuff, or seen people raising money so they could get expensive treatment? It happens all the time.

And as UM pointed out already, in an emergency hospitals never refuse service to someone because of money issues. If you are at a hospital and you are in danger of dying, you get treatment. No one is ever left to die.

Acting like that happens all the time is just stupid.

If people without health insurance could depend on charities, there wouldn't be a health crisis in the US. Charities can only go so far. Here in Canada, charities give money to research instead of treatment, a much better use I find.

And although you'll probably get treated for life threatening emergencies, you may still have to fork out for the bill. There is also the matter of non-life threatening emergencies, do you know how much it costs to reattach a severed finger?

I have absolutely no idea what to think about this. There are so many voices saying so many different things that I don't know who to believe.

If you go to a hospital with a missing finger they will attach it for you. And if you dont have any money, they will accept it in small payments. They will go down to very small payments, even like 5 dollars a month and they dont charge interest or anything.

What you are basically saying, is that people should be allowed to be total bums and pay nothing into the system at all, have no job, and sit at home doing nothing and get free unlimited healthcare for life. Obviously this is a drain on everyone else, and not surprisingly increases the costs for everyone involved.

Alric, people have died from cancer because they were unable to afford the medical treatment. Many of these now deceased were hard working americans who never planned to get cancer, and never in the wildest imaginations ever imagined that their decent income still wasn't enough to protect them.

My mom tried to help a woman dying from cancer get the medical treatment she needed. My mom at the time was representing many health insurance agencies, and still couldn't find any loophole to give coverage for the woman. Because of prerequisites, no company would take her. She died. Okay. She's dead. She was never even given a fighting chance by our modern medicine.

Everyone deserves medical treatment regardless of what the disease is. No one should be turned away because they lack the money. If everyone was covered, there would be enough money to cover those who need the money most. There would be enough money flow because not everyone is diseased - and for many, a simple and affordable visit actually saves money in the end because preventive medicine is the best medicine.

The same thing happens even in countries with free health care for everyone. No matter how free it is, or how much they boast that everyone in their country is covered, it still happens. You will find stories like that in every country.

You can't allow yourself to be talked into wasting billions of dollars on stuff like this, because of the ocassional person who can't get treatment, because that is always going to be the case, no matter what is done. No system is perfect.

The fact is, even if the system was in place, she could of very well have died. You can't build an entire health care system around catching the few people who normally fall through the cracks, that is just silly and it doesn't work.

If you were worried about such thing, a far smaller and focused program, would likely do far better than a massive new bureaucracy.

Originally Posted by Alric

The same thing happens even in countries with free health care for everyone. No matter how free it is, or how much they boast that everyone in their country is covered, it still happens. You will find stories like that in every country.

You don't know what you're talking about. Show me some of these stories. And this is not an isolated incident in the US, where it is VERY easy to find such stories.

http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/sec...pe-and-canada/

Took me 5 seconds to find articles stating how the US has a higher suvival rate for people with cancer, than countries like canada and britian and other eurpian countries.

http://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/200...ary-by-country

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/he...th-from-cancer

http://www.nospeedbumps.com/wp-image...ival_Rates.jpg

The general trend is that America is either the best or one of the bests countries as far as cancer survival rates go.

Even if those numbers are correct (did you look at the sources lol...) We're talking about people that have been refused treatment. Find me stories about that.

What exactly does this healthcare reform encompass? I hope it's not mandatory vaccines, or shit like that. But their saying you HAVE to have it or you get fined...how much is the fine? does it include jail time?

Isn't this a good thing if everyone can afford it, and everyone has the same treatment? Why are republicans ( conservatives ) so upset about this. This is change.

Oh I see you are one of them people. The one who thinks subpar medical coverage for all is better than high quality care for most. So even if your system causes more deaths, its better because it covers everyone? I love that logic. Poor medical care for all that results in more deaths, is better.

Thats the common complaint really, and I ran into a lot of articles about that. Like this one saying medical staff gave subpar service so they could cram as many people through the waiting lines as possible.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7052606.ece

There is also an interesting story where doctors are saying they should ban care to fat people, smokers and the eldery in britian. Isn't that great coverage! I bring it up, since there is a mention in the article about how its a common practice for the more debt ridden hospitals to deney coverage already.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...y-doctors.html


Though you shift through the subpar medical care articles you eventually find one like this.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...ding-drug.html

About a woman who got dumped from the national health care system because she wanted to buy drugs that the health care system refuses to provide people. She was going to pay for the drug out of her own pocket, and they still dumped her from coverage for it.

Ironically it also explains that this type of stuff(national heath care denying people the use of expensive cancer fighting drugs), that has caused that country to have one of the worst survival rates for cancer.

Then stuff like this.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...njections.html

Where they decided to just cut people off from getting treatment for severe back pain, and just tell them they should get acupuncture and stuff like that? Yea real modern medicine there.

I honestly can't speak for the NHS, I don't live there, I don't know how it works and I've never looked into it.

For my country however, I wouldn't describe the health care provided as subpar. Lets use your cancer example.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...0716/20080716/

This site shows different treatments available for cancer here.

http://www.cancer.ca/canada-wide/abo...spx?sc_lang=en

So now that we've established that health care here isn't subpar, lets get on with it.

You seem to be very nonchalant about the fact that your fellow citizens, in the so called "most advanced country in the world" are withheld medical treatment. As in "hey this will cure you, but you can't have it". I think it's going to take a personal experience to convince you. What if you had a friend that was slowly dying of a treatable condition he couldn't afford to cure, or if your insurance company found a loophole to dump you when you were critically ill.