Thread: What is the evidence that dreams are produced by the brain ?

Originally Posted by DreamyBear

StephL, you seem to have a lot of questions, and so do I actually. And I get even more questions myself, before I could come up with answers about what life really is about. I will not be able to answer them all, but I pick one here that I consider one of the mere important according to me. I think that this is a good example why you just dont seems to fully get it when it comes to different believes. I would consider myself exactly as logical as you. But what differs us, is that Im seeking an answear to IF there might be a life after death. And my goal is not to fool myself here, I got to take every question I may ask myself equaly seriously even if it doesn't seems to fit in with what the scientists says. These kind of questions about life after death etc, seems to many people, as ridiculous.

This is not a religious belief Im developing here, it's made up of pure logic. I cant claim that Im right about what I believe, but after some years digging in these questions, I do think Im on the right way. and I no longer feel that I have to convince everyone either.

I strongly disagree with equally seriously - but otherwise - I feel again, there is a wilful misinterpreting and accusing and putting into the wrong boxes going on..

I do not exclude anything - see the label "agnostic" I attached to my lapel.
I went about it saying it is not disprovable that we are "only a simulation" for example, too.
Is that so hard to grasp?

And that is, why what I have is a world-view, and what - maybe not you - but Nailler and Astralboy have is a religion.

You two are fully convinced that my materialistic world view is wrong, aren´t you?
That is the difference.
If I got one of you wrongly - please correct.

Originally Posted by DreamyBear

And now back to you StephL, these toughts Im outing here is really not easy to digest if you come frome a pretty hardcore belief in what the scientists says, only.

Now back to me, eh?

Originally Posted by DreamyBear

I dont dissagree in what science has come up with, when it comes to how the earth works. But what science do is not a matter of if this life might have, a destiny or a meaning with.


Science do measure things and take a really close look into stuff. So if you search for an answer if all life got a meaning, then you need to take in everything that's ever exist and occure in this world and try to come to a conclusion WHY everything is happening and not WHAT make things happen mechanically. And science is all about what makes things happen mechanically.

It is hard to accept the truth - I agree.
Go on believing to soothe yourself - nothing wrong with - only - that.

Originally Posted by DreamyBear

StephL, I get the feeling that you really try to debunk all this things, and that's a really good thing to go for. But with these kind of questions, there might always be a MAYBE in there when you think you got it. And it's when that maybe appears that you got to stay fair in your conclusions. And the even trickier thing with these questions, is that you often have to make your own research to really get the sense if there is any true value behind it. And if you TRULEY want to make it closer to some kind of answer, you got to remain fair to your self in your conclusions, even if you got a belief in any side of the coint.

So my question to you is: Do you really have the fair view in everything you believe? or do you might want to believe in one thing to much to let it go? You dont really have to answer me this if you dont feel lit to be necessary. But you might ask your self this, and then why your not fair in your belief if that might be the case.

I already stated, that there will always be room for a maybes in my world-view.

Yes - you got to be fair to yourself - even if it hurts - like - "there is no meaning".
Unless you attach it - while alive.


To choose to go against 99++% of data and not even have any own experience - of having died in this case - I can´t understand it.

That does not do justice to human cognitive abilities.
This belief is just a tool - a drug, if you will - for alleviating fear and angst esp. about the cessation of your own existence.
For keeping the basal animal happily functioning and fit for life.
Might be there is a need for transcendence, rather.

Originally Posted by Nailler

Then I would ask what theory of awareness and personal identity does one subscribe to? Are we basically a piece of meat called a brain that is somehow self-aware? Are we some form of electrical activity bopping along through synapses in the brain? Or are we spirits or souls? What? And are these questions beyond the scope of neuroscience.

I guess my point is that there has to be somebody home... somebody there who is aware of being aware. Perhaps it's a shortcoming on my part that I can't conceive of a piece of meat or electrical patterns being self-aware. To press the point, if that is the case, who is it being aware of that self-awareness? But now I'm even confusing myself.

Your last sentence shows, something has set on in your thinking..
Otherwise yes - a piece of very, very special and of course alive - meat.

Originally Posted by Nailler

As for a reason that an immortal soul might choose to impinge on the physical universe and run a human body around... maybe for a game... something to do? It seems to me that the conventional ideas of heaven, nirvana, cosmic consciousnesses etc. would be incredibly boring after a day or two.

Are you fu... serious?? Do you have a grasp of the scope of human suffering over the ages??
A game for the fun of it?
Even the ones dying shortly after their birth?
What´s the point of that?
Sorry - but if I were able to pull off to decide to go play like that - I would sure do a better job for that virtual reality game!!

Originally Posted by Nailler

Kind of neat to have a place to discuss such stuff with others who seem to share my interests. I don't have any friends like that in real life.

N.

Now - there we got something to agree on!

I do have people in real life to talk about such topics and am very thankful for it.

Also did my British jolly darts-mates not fall over backwards when I came up with LD as a topic lately - and that is more exotic than the usual mini-pseudo-philosophical banter.

They didn´t know about it - but they did believe me and found it interesting and maybe worth a try..















Ah - and - of course - here we go - got to watch it now once more myself - this is really something to enjoy - for all of us in this thread I am sure.
But do not deceive yourselves about where they will go with it all - watch it!

Originally Posted by StephL

Are you fu... serious?? Do you have a grasp of the scope of human suffering over the ages??
A game for the fun of it?

Absolutely serious... but not for the fun of it. Rather for the experience of it. Pain and pleasure form a dichotomy... that is they are the two extremes of the same quality. Neither exists without the other. If you're going to eat the apple, you have to eat the whole thing, worms and all.

N.

"Are you fu... serious?? Do you have a grasp of the scope of human suffering over the ages??
A game for the fun of it?"

@StephL

And what if all of this life is not "serious" at all? When you dream and see suffering it is sad and you cry! But when you wake up you say to yourself "LOL it was just a dream". But in that dream it was so REAL! Maybe one day you will wake up from this "life-dream" and say to yourself "LOL I was too serious... all of this was just an experience and lesson".
think about it... it is Buddha's theory ... life could be an illusion, a dream.

More serious answer:

When there is ignorance there is error. When you suffer it is because you ignore the law or formula. Like in math when you don't get the right result it is because there is error, and the ignorance of the formula. And what you call suffering could just be suffering in appearence. There is only experience and lessons. Humanity suffer and will suffer... But not "for fun" but because there is something to learn. Even in what you call "dreams" you suffer when you don't know that you are the master of it. When you know it you don't suffer! When you suffer in your video game it is because you don't know how to play. In the this "life" the same thing applies. I even know people who suffer because they loose in a video game party, they know that it is just a Tv and a game and they get angry and break their tv! lol ... For some people it is so easy to suffer, you know
I suffered so much in the past, now not at all! It is because I understood at some degree this life-dream. Like I understood my "dreams". When you wait for God or angels, scientist or saviors to help you you will suffer, when you think that everything happens by chance or accident you will suffer... When you think that you're a meat victim of chance and accidents you will suffer. But when you observe yourself, your mind, and when you observe your life, you will find "that something". Instead of looking and observing the effects, like our science ... search The Cause of all causes. The Law of all laws. But yeah it is so difficult for some people to have responsability for their life. It is so easy to blame chance, god, devil, angels... Some people will never ask a question : "And what if my "dreams" are my creation ?"

Originally Posted by astralboy

"Are you fu... serious?? Do you have a grasp of the scope of human suffering over the ages??
A game for the fun of it?"

@StephL

And what if all of this life is not "serious" at all? When you dream and see suffering it is sad and you cry! But when you wake up you say to yourself "LOL it was just a dream". But in that dream it was so REAL! Maybe one day you will wake up from this "life-dream" and say to yourself "LOL I was too serious... all of this was just an experience and lesson".
think about it... it is Buddha's theory ... life could be an illusion, a dream.

You misunderstood me - but this time for real, I think.

In your dreams - the characters, who suffer do not matter, because they are mere figments of your imagination.
They are not conscious - or do you subscribe to a view of you spawning thousands of DC´s every night maybe even - which then go on doing what, when you wake up?

"Dream babies?"

No - the term is DC, and they tend to say the darnedest things, won´t drop dead, when shot at in certain cases - they appear and disappear with the blink of an eye.
And certainly they are only a memory in your brain, once you do not dream them any more.

That is why there is no suffering on their side and why it is not unethical to shoot at them in the first place.
If you pose a game - like a dream, with "no suffering" - then you go into a solipsist or polipsist view (you/you and your gang are alone in this universe - everything else is your dream - you are gaming in this universe for a while, and nothing has consequence).

But somehow something went wrong, because you have forgotten, that you are playing, haven´t you?
Also - with that standpoint - there is nothing ethically wrong with shooting at people in real life either - just for the fun of it.

Besides, what I already wrote - and for the second time, too, above:

Originally Posted by StephL

This idea that such powerful entities, which as said above - could pull such a feat off as to go play in such a way - they sure got something better to do.
You could pose - most people are not people but non-sentient game-characters - like DCs - but that would seriously be a sick view in my eyes.

more serious answer:

What follows really leaves me almost speechless as to your absolutely immature, naive, well-fed and pampered and self-satisfied first world never-looked-over-the-rim-of-my-dinner-plate mindset.
If your naivete wasn´t so painful to behold - I would find it quite hilarious.
I seriously hope you are a boy for real - I might excuse such - with 13/14 years of age - if so - go live a bit!

When there is ignorance there is error.

Hear, hear - the platitude..

When you suffer it is because you ignore the law or formula.

Oh really? Is that so? Have you heard about torture, sexual, physical, psychological abuse, cruelty, dying over years in the most agonisingly way - day for day for day??

Like in math when you don't get the right result it is because there is error, and the ignorance of the formula.

Like in maths, eh?
Next comes you tell us, you have the formula, and we all could have it, if we were less ignorant?
Also while being tortured, this would work - puuuf - magic, magic - bad torturer dissolves into thin air??
Oh really?
And - tell me - how do you do it then?
You are applying this as a formula-umbrella around yourself, probably in neon colours only you can see, and something geometrical - all the rage, lately..
And when the earthquake scale 10 rips your holiday domicile apart - you wondrously do not have one scratch then, is it?

And what you call suffering could just be suffering in appearence.

That you tell the patients on a cancer-ward, next time you pass a hospital - or any ward, actually.
See if they throw flowers at you.
They won´t have much choice in ballistic projectiles.

So - the ones with severed spinal cord should just get the hell up from lying about lazily from getting the formula wrong??

There is only experience and lessons. Humanity suffer and will suffer...

But not "for fun" but because there is something to learn.

Again - what could I possibly learn from "playing" a baby dying 2 days after birth - peacefully, lets say?
And in the millions, this role would have to be played and all the other crappy roles.

Do you really think, your fellow humans are not humans like you?
That they are like the opponents or little helpful sprites, or mushrooms or cars with eyes in your video games?

Even in what you call "dreams" you suffer when you don't know that you are the master of it.

I suffer because it is my dream, if I do so. Not anybody else. Do you get it maybe??
Reality is not like that.
You talk like a solipsist.

When you know it you don't suffer!

When I know "it" - namely that I dream and have control - no - then I do not suffer.
Because it is my dream, and it is only in my head.
There are no hungry wolves in my head, no earthquakes - just my brain and it is creating a simulation for me.
The perfect private virtual reality.

Well - it would be perfect in many people´s eyes, if only they could share it.
I do not want to share it - that is my very private sphere - I am almighty there and the only sentient being.
I do not have to bother about others.

This can be used as a training ground for real life without the real pressure for actual fitness.
You can gain more real-life-fitness from LD I strongly believe.

When you suffer in your video game it is because you don't know how to play.

When I what? When I play a video game, I as in the person in front of the screen can suffer from different things - a burn-wound would do.
That has got nothing to do with the rules, and if you project yourself as dissociatively into your play-figure that you feel the virtual pain while it does fighting - well - you should not expect more than a handful of other disturbed beings understanding that.

In the this "life" the same thing applies.

I really, really hope this answer is not serious. Or when do you plan to free yourself from all pseudo-ethical restraint and go on a killing-spree?
Against some gangsters, like in a game?
Huh?

I really really hope you have not thought this through!!

I even know people who suffer because they loose in a video game party, they know that it is just a Tv and a game and they get angry and break their tv! lol ...

LOL..
And I have been with people while they were dying on intensive care and having a good old jolly time with it!

For some people it is so easy to suffer, you know

You know..tetetereeé ..
You have no idea what the term suffering means - not from your own experience it seems to me.
I wish you not to be ambushed by total reality-check too soon - better sort your head out first.

There are people saying - somebody who gets raped, robbed, ill etc. - had it coming for them - it is their own fault.

If they had not done wrong - they would be better off - so why waste my energy and wealth on these sinners?
Me being happy and healthy, because I am so moral, smart, enlightened, I know the formula, I am proficient!

See - you idiot sufferers - if you were as great as me - you wouldn´t get closed in in a basement by your own father and raped and had to get his children, whom he rapes as well, and live with them under the earth for years - as sex-slaves (do you need a link?)..

Are you such a person??
Or are you a solipsist?
Or just a puffed up child???

I suffered so much in the past, now not at all!

Hear, hear..chichi ..
You have not even seen suffering!!

It is because I understood at some degree this life-dream.

What was that?
Put that in an understandable way - at some point in your life or to some degree?!

Like I understood my "dreams".

Did you now? I doubt you understand very much in general about what you even say.

When you wait for God or angels, scientist or saviors to help you you will suffer, when you think that everything happens by chance or accident you will suffer...

When you think that you're a meat victim of chance and accidents you will suffer.

How nice - concerning the Sunday-sufferers - lying fat and self-satisfied on the sofa and wondering about what they could cultivate a blues today..

But when you observe yourself, your mind, and when you observe your life, you will find "that something".
Instead of looking and observing the effects, like our science ... search The Cause of all causes.

The Law of all laws.

Na then - spit it out - your magical law of laws?
What is the formula, and how do you apply it?

Do you spray it on the ones in pain, maybe? Or recite it to the tortured?

But yeah it is so difficult for some people to have responsability for their life.
It is so easy to blame chance, god, devil, angels...

You know - I feel like throwing up from so much priggish nonsense - refer to my above cases - how are they to take responsibility for their rotten lives? Kill themselves? Who then plays with you?
Now that would be mean, if nobody would play the sufferers for little astralboy...oooh!

Some people will never ask a question : "And what if my "dreams" are my creation ?"

You are having some problems there!!
That is my position: My dreams are my creation - me being my consciousness, residing in my brain and nowhere else.
Some people will never ask a question...
Where is my bucket?

Steph-rant-off.