Thread: All Our Heads vs. More Than That

Originally Posted by Rare

** I think this is right forum area for this, if not, sorry for the hassle of a move **

Just curious. It seems that the common perception of dreams is that they are subconscious representations created by our mind. Every place, DC, event, and action is created by our subconscious and therefore it's ok for us to rape, kill, dominate it as we see fit for our own entertainment.

Why is this the most common view point? I must have missed some real good explanation here. As far as I understand there's allot of dream theory and very little dream fact. Yet, this seems to be the predominant idea that everyone seems to believe in? Why is this? Did I take a wrong turn somwhere?

Are there any opposing theories to this general idea?

(sorry if this discussion has been covered in another thread. If it has, a link to it would be great and I'll just browse there)

To the best of my knowledge; it is all theory. However the study of dreams is, more or less, a theoretical science. There is simply (as of now) no way of proving many theories about the (non)physicality of dreams, based on our limited resources.

However, there is more evidence to suggest that dreams are all mental, than that they have some sort of metaphysical nature, and that is why it is the prevailing viewpoint. The subjective nature of dreams, for one, gives us reason to believe that the "dream world" is specific to the dreamer, and the dreamer alone. It is filled with archetypes, emotions and memories that are only logical to the dream (for the most part), even if it's on a purely subconscious level.

Also, when it comes to DC's being actual entities, this question has come up a few times. I use these as some examples of why I believe they are mentally constructed:

-In a dream, I've killed a DC, only to have that DC re-spawn over and over.

-I fight characters that were created by the imaginations of other people - famous fictional characters like Jason, Freddy, etc. Do you believe that these characters actually exist, in some alternate universe?

-I have possessed DC's before, taking over their bodies. If that happens, where, then, does their consciousness go? Two people cannot occupy the same body at one time, as far as we know.

There are many different examples of why dreams are simply of the mind. Could you think of any that give evidence to the idea that DCs are living entities?

Very true. I don't know alot about dream theory, but as far as representation in our actions, (like Onei said) i find that whenever I do something horrible in a dream, it fixes itself up rather quickly. Now, the real quiestion is, why do humans get so curious about the taboo?

I mean.. come on. How many internet sites are there displaying pictures of dead bodies, horrible accidents, etc etc. Why would a human want to visit one of those sites? Simple curiousity is what I think. It would be only human nature for us to more deeply explore that curiosity in our dream, especially if we knew that it would have no repurcussions.

First off thanks for the response! Guess I'm not that far off base! I really appreciated your input. Hope you don't mind more questions.

However, there is more evidence to suggest that dreams are all mental, than they have some sort of metaphysical nature, and that is why it is the prevailing viewpoint.

Is the evidence just the general status quo of thought regarding dreams? Such as, because there is a majority viewpoint therefore is more than likely true?

The subjective nature of dreams, for one, gives us reason to believe that the "dream world" is specific to the dreamer, and the dreamer alone. It is filled with archetypes, emotions and memories that are specific to the dreamer (for the most part).

I can see what you mean by this. Dreams can be pretty subjective at times. Especially when you attempt to analyze them as subjective material.

Also, when it comes to DC's being actual entities, this question has come up a few times. I use this as one example of why I believe they are mentally constructed:

-In a dream, I've killed a DC, only to have that DC re-spawn over and over.

Hrms... Well if you could just kill DC's without them re-spawning I would imagine that the dream world would be a barren wasteland by now. Plus obviously the same rules that work here don't apply to the other side. Who's to say that the repeated killing of a re-spawning DC doesn't hurt it, or entertain it.

-I fight characters that were created by the imaginations of other people - famous fictional characters like Jason, Freddy, etc. Do you believe that these characters actually exist, in some alternate universe?

I do think that at times dreams are creations of our subconscious. Memory constructs loaded into a scene by us, or some part of us, played out in order to give us the chance to identify with our feelings on a subject, or give us a new perspective that we would otherwise not have thought about on our own. While in these states the DC's are probably not real beings. i.e. the multiple deaths of Freddy Kreugar and Jason.

Yet, based on my personal experiences (which is the only "evidence" I have), I cannot rule out the fact that there has to be more to it at times.

-I have possessed DC's before, taking over their bodies. If that happens, where, then, does their consciousness go? Two people cannot occupy the same body at one time, as far as we know.

Well, I've often thought that many of the individuals whom I've come across within my dreams exist mainly as formless and have pulled a construct from my mind to appear as. (i.e. like the movie Contact) By possessing ones construct I would assume they would simply exit and move on, because it wouldn't make sense that of two energies would exist in the same space.

There are many different examples of why dreams are simply of the mind.

I know you're probably right and I should just do the research to find this proof, but it still seems like it's more popular belief. If you have any recommended reading I would be thankful, as I am always open to reshaping my view(s) of the universe.

Could you think of any that give evidence to the idea that DCs are living entities?

Only my interactions within the dream world. For years now I have experienced a strong progression of proof that there is more to it than just my own mind. Based on my interactions with DC's, places that I'm traveled to or stumbled upon. I know that is not a proper answer to it, but that's all I have to offer.

I am just surprised that there doesn't seem to be many people who have experienced anything that might make them questions whether or not there is more to it.

Originally Posted by AmazeO XD

Very true. I don't know alot about dream theory, but as far as representation in our actions, (like Onei said) i find that whenever I do something horrible in a dream, it fixes itself up rather quickly. Now, the real quiestion is, why do humans get so curious about the taboo?

I mean.. come on. How many internet sites are there displaying pictures of dead bodies, horrible accidents, etc etc. Why would a human want to visit one of those sites? Simple curiousity is what I think. It would be only human nature for us to more deeply explore that curiosity in our dream, especially if we knew that it would have no repurcussions.

I understand what you mean by that, and I didn't mean to come across as judgmental. If people want to go through the curiosity of that then that's great. That’s their choice.

But just for giggles sake, what if one person's DC that attacks them is actually another dreamer going off and being curious about what it would be like to attack people.

Or if we go on the it's all in our heads, then those that run around engaging in no repercussion sex on a regular basis could be considered to qualify as chronic masturbators, as essentially they're just playing with themselves.

Specifically what makes you conclude that dreams are not just in one's own head?

Originally Posted by Mark75

Specifically what makes you conclude that dreams are not just in one's own head?

I have had a number of experiences \ interactions in my dreams that lead me to believe that it is more than just my own construct that I am viewing.

I know that doesn't hold up to anything, and I'm not expecting it to. I am just surprised that it seems like no one else has had any experience(s) within their dreams that left them considering that there is more to it than their own subconscious will.

I suppose it must be a rare occurrence.

Originally Posted by Rare

I have had a number of experiences \ interactions in my dreams that lead me to believe that it is more than just my own construct that I am viewing.

I think it was assumed that you had reasons for believing this at the opening post. Rather than reaffirming that they exist, tell us what they are.

Originally Posted by Mark75

I think it was assumed that you had reasons for believing this at the opening post. Rather than reaffirming that they exist, tell us what they are.

I am not sure if I understand your question. Are you refereing to DC's? or do you want me to lay out my experiences?

You said:

Originally Posted by Rare

I have had a number of experiences \ interactions in my dreams that lead me to believe that it is more than just my own construct that I am viewing.

You're saying these things are why you believe this. Tell us what those things are. Give us examples at least.

Oh Ok. I understand now. Sorry my mind didn't read what you quoted from me.

I have never really been asked to share those before. I just recently started keeping an active DJ so I can't cut and paste from that. As most of them are spread out over the past 3-4 years.

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=51898

I think my post at the bottom would be a good start. Had that one a few years ago. Night is pretty much in all my dreams now, and there are times when after waking up I ask what he dreamed about and some of the themes line up with what I experienced. It's hit and miss sometimes though. He doesn't have the best recall.

Once I am at my home; I will be sure to post up some more if you feel it would be necessary. (I will be sure to keep em short)

Or if anyone has any sort of experience that left you feeling inspired to believe that there is definitely something greater out there, and our dreams may be a conduit to it, please by all means share.

Or if your opinions are opposite of that, please chime in!

Originally Posted by Rare

So I've thought about it for a bit... one of the weirdest \ wildest dreams I can recall at this point that wasn't an intentionaly lucid affair would be. It was weird \ wild because it was one of the first times I remember dreaming about my soul-bound mate; I'll call him Night;

I was throwing this house party and I invited alot of people over but I got this feeling that I was mainly having the event so I could hang out with this one special person. The party went on way to long and halfway through there were these candy things we were all eating and they would give us psychic powers. I was creating these huge green translucent cubes and jumping out of the second story window onto them. I got so lost in the fun that I forgot that I was wanting to hang out with Night.

So I went looking for him and found him at a park sitting on a little bridge thing talking with his girl. It was snowing and he had his arm around her keeping her warm. She was giving me dirty looks like she didn't want me to be around, and was whispering things into his ears. I asked if Night wanted to come back to the house party but he said that he wanted to stay with her to keep her warm. I was really sad because I really liked him but he didn't know. I eventually wandered off and was sad and I woke up.

So I am laying there in my bed and I look over and he's sleeping next to me and I'm like yay we're together it was just a dream. Then I thought to myself why the hell would I have such a weird dream that would end like that making me feel odd and stuff. So I went back to bed.

Pretty much instantly I went back to sleep and I was standing there looking at Night, except he was dressed differently then he was in the dream before. It was still dark time, and it was cold and I was like what was all the last dream about. He said, "It wasn't supposed to end like that. Go find me, and tell me that you love me, and don't let me go see the girl I was with." At that point he winked at me and went poof!

So I go wandering around looking for Night and I find him going back to his vehicle and I go and ask if I can have a ride. So he's driving me back to my house party and I am looking at him with sad eyes, and I was like, "So you and her, are gonna like, be together." He kinda shrugged and said, "Well, she loves me." I paused for a moment and looked back at him and said, "But I love you."

There was this pause when he thought about this and said, "You do?".. I was like, "Yah!". So he says, "I love you too, I never thought that you loved me" and then he said "Well, lets go find her and let her know what is up.". My mind clicked and remembered what the different version of Night had said, and so I suggested that we leave a note with her teacher instead of talking to her directly. He agree'd and the dream kind of twiddled off from there.

I woke up feeling happy, and refreshed, and asked if he had the same dream too. He couldn't remember.

We've been working on dream recall since then, and he's gotten much better. Now we are active DC's in each-others dreams. Only problem is that he has ADHD which I feel sometimes interferes with his ability to recall \ attain lucidity some times.

Umm, what? I hope you aren't talking about this. Is Night an actual person you know or someone you only see in dreams?

Originally Posted by Mark75

Umm, what? I hope you aren't talking about this. Is Night an actual person you know or someone you only see in dreams?

Originally Posted by Rare

It was weird \ wild because it was one of the first times I remember dreaming about my soul-bound mate

Originally Posted by Rare

and there are times when after waking up I ask what he dreamed about and some of the themes line up with what I experienced

I try hard to read everything someone has to say before replying. Sorry there is so much of my text to read and some of the details get lost. I have a problem with over-typing. With future examples of my experiences (if they are still needed) I will keep them brief.

I read the whole thing. Don't patronize me. It was unclear weather it was a flase awakening.

"...some of the themes line up with what I experienced. It's hit and miss sometimes though."

Wow, that's really special. Obviously it's magick.

Wow I got distracted. I love how the mind can focus on something and then forget details. Like why I originally was inspired to ask the initial questions in the opening post. I meant to post this up much sooner. So yesterday morning I had the following dream;

The only thing I recall is that I was speaking to a man in my dreams. He was old, very old, kinda had rotting teeth. His hands were alot larger then mine and were very rough. He had dark tan skin. We shook hands and we started talking.

Man: When I was alive I really enjoyed working on boats. I miss that.
Rare: Well, maybe in our next lives we can build a boat together.
Man: Perhaps, but only if our rivers cross.

My first instinct upon waking up was to believe that I had actually had a conversation with someone who had passed on recently, and that this conversation re-confirmed my belief in multiple lives. After re-reading Oneironaut's post closely I am trying to apply what he had to say.

So the dream character was created by me and meant to represent a part of my psyche(sp)? The conversation we had was a part of my subconscious expressing my belief in multiple lives? and the purpose was to make me believe that I was speaking to another being in order to jusitfy this belief?

Any input would be appreciated.

Originally Posted by Rare

So the dream character was created by me and meant to represent a part of my psyche(sp)? The conversation we had was a part of my subconscious expressing my belief in multiple lives? and the purpose was to make me believe that I was speaking to another being in order to jusitfy this belief?

I suppose that's possible. It's no mystery that people tend to dream about things they're familiar with and which they're presently focused on. That, or lots of crazy things happen in dreams all the time and this one was no exception.

One time in a lucid dream I asked a DC if he was self aware. He said "yes". I asked "Well are you really truly intelligent and conscious or are you just the imitation of intelligence?" I don't remember his response but a different voice that just entered my head from nowhere said "Kevin, they are all self-aware as long as you continue their existence."

I personally think they are no more than creations of our brain. maybe our brains are more complex than we think they are and the creation of more than one self aware being can be created in a dream. I dunno, this idea of a subconscious, can it manifest itself as a whole new being?

tis mind boggling

I know what your problem is, your subconciousness is cleverer than you are.

I think your underestimating the power of your own mind.
I don't mean offense, but what about those examples you gave can't be explained by the idea of dreams being purely a construct of our own minds?

You dreamed that you were talking to a dead person. You also happen to believe in multiple lives, so is that really such a stretch that you would dream of such a thing?

With regard to dreaming about the same themes are your life partner, I don't find that to be a stretch either. You share your waking life together, have similar experiences. It's only logical to me that your dreams would start to be similar also. I've yet to read a shared dream experience that can't be explained by either coincidence, similar waking experiences or something similar. And as far as I'm concerned, the most simple and elegant solution is usually the correct one. No point in assuming its more complex than it needs to be. For me, and everyones entitled to their own ideas, belief in actual shared dreams is neither simple nor elegant.

My own experiences with dreams paint me a very different picture to what your perceiving. They constantly reaffirm the idea that they are purely constructed by our own mind. My dreams are so wacky and strange, but If I think deeply about any element in my dream I can almost always figure out where that idea or concept came from in my own memories, even if it was from something I though I had long forgotten. Sometimes the origin is obvious, other times not so much, but I see the mind as an immensely powerful thing well beyond my own understanding. Something as simple as a certain pattern I once saw in a pit of mud (in a dream) I can trace back to something I saw on TV a couple of years ago. This fancy swirling galaxy like pattern that I really liked. I think it's much more likely that this was pulled out of my memory and constructed in the dream rather than believe it came from anywhere else, it just seems more logical to me. Of course, everyones entitled to their own opinion.

No offense taken. I really enjoy conversations of this nature. The examples I gave really aren't the best. I wasn't intending to be a spokesman for shared dreams. I haven't had any experience to prove those existences to myself, etc, nor do I believe the dream about my partner was a shared one. (and in the 7 years we've been together I can't say I've actually had a vivid, definite shared dream with him, only minor coincidences that line up between our dreams when we talk about them... so statistically I guess you can say that it is improbable)

What I enjoyed most about that dream was the fact I had awaken from it, and then went pretty much back to the same point I left, spoke with an advanced version of my partner that was in the first dream and was instructed that there was more to the dream I hadn't discovered, and how I could go about experiencing it. I am a person who goes with my gut feelings; if I were talking to a construct of myself I figured that's what I would have felt. *shrug* same goes for other DC's I have conversations with... most of the time I feel that I am not interacting with myself and it is something other than that. The only exception to this rule is when I am engaging in interaction with myself, either from earlier or later in life, or parts of myself that I meet at different intervals while walking the path.

I think, for me, it is coming to a matter of perspective. Like, lets say it is all in my head. When dreams happen I have receded my conscious mind into a subconscious outlet within myself. Now if anything is possible in lucid dreams, and normal dreams for that matter, I don't see it being a long shot to consider that a part of me (at certain times) will make contact or have contact with something other than myself, using my own mind as a stage for this contact.

Such as the example with the conversation I had with the one DC whom I believed was dead. While I may have thought before I was in some land of the dead speaking with this person, now I can see how we could have just been chilling within the construct of my own mind. How this happens? Why it happens? etc? I don't know.

I am really glad I started this thread now, as I feel if I move along with this belief I will be able have more control over the interactions with my dreams. Understanding that it is all within my head and then moving from there to the outward connection with everything that is more than that.

It has been seven months since this thread......

Originally Posted by Rare

No offense taken. I really enjoy conversations of this nature. The examples I gave really aren't the best. I wasn't intending to be a spokesman for shared dreams. I haven't had any experience to prove those existences to myself, etc, nor do I believe the dream about my partner was a shared one. (and in the 7 years we've been together I can't say I've actually had a vivid, definite shared dream with him, only minor coincidences that line up between our dreams when we talk about them... so statistically I guess you can say that it is improbable)

What I enjoyed most about that dream was the fact I had awaken from it, and then went pretty much back to the same point I left, spoke with an advanced version of my partner that was in the first dream and was instructed that there was more to the dream I hadn't discovered, and how I could go about experiencing it. I am a person who goes with my gut feelings; if I were talking to a construct of myself I figured that's what I would have felt. *shrug* same goes for other DC's I have conversations with... most of the time I feel that I am not interacting with myself and it is something other than that. The only exception to this rule is when I am engaging in interaction with myself, either from earlier or later in life, or parts of myself that I meet at different intervals while walking the path.

I think, for me, it is coming to a matter of perspective. Like, lets say it is all in my head. When dreams happen I have receded my conscious mind into a subconscious outlet within myself. Now if anything is possible in lucid dreams, and normal dreams for that matter, I don't see it being a long shot to consider that a part of me (at certain times) will make contact or have contact with something other than myself, using my own mind as a stage for this contact.

Such as the example with the conversation I had with the one DC whom I believed was dead. While I may have thought before I was in some land of the dead speaking with this person, now I can see how we could have just been chilling within the construct of my own mind. How this happens? Why it happens? etc? I don't know.

I am really glad I started this thread now, as I feel if I move along with this belief I will be able have more control over the interactions with my dreams. Understanding that it is all within my head and then moving from there to the outward connection with everything that is more than that.

and I got two of these..

Originally Posted by Dream Views

Hello, Rare!
We've noticed that you haven't been active at Dreamviews lucid dreaming forums for quite some time now, and we miss you!

Could we tempt you into coming back?

If you don't remember your password, you can request it here: http://www.dreamviews.com/community/login.php?do=lostpw
We hope to see you soon

Kindest Regards
Dreamviews lucid dreaming forums
http://www.dreamviews.com

I almost believed it, in the beginning. That I was not on base. That I was off center to a degree. I all most believed it was ok to rape my DC's. I saw that it was what we supported right? That we are in control, created everything, and can do whatever we want? Right??

I almost believed it, in the beginning. I almost believed that being told my dream was not real. I almost trusted this forum to offer plausible guidance after sharing my experience. I almost had my mind warped when someone told me what I felt was not possible.

Oneironaut you = ok.

Mark75 = dumb.

but all in all I wish to thank you, and anyone else that makes someone feel like they don't understand their true feelings. It is because of you that we come to understand that we are not inaccurate.

btw I am here to stay. I was scared away, but now I am not afraid to share, my understanding of the Dream View!

I've just read this thread through, and I have a lot of respect for you as a random internet person. You seem reasonable and good, I hope that you do continue posting here and that we can share our views.

I believe that all dream phenomena and people are a part of my mind. This means they represent ideas.

I also think that dreams are a chance to practice the skills and thought we apply in real life and to work through emotions on a subconscious level. Therefore if I run into a demon in a dream it may be a representation of a problem that I really need to deal with; and dealing with it on a dream level is an important part of dealing with it as a part of my subconscious.

In the same way, doing good and affirming people in dreams is good practice for acting compassionately in waking life. On the other hand, if I were to dream of a beautiful woman and have sex with her against her will, I would be raping a beautiful, pure part of myself and practicing seeing women as sex objects.

For this reason, I try my best to dream ethically.

Very interested in this discussion. I do tend to hope that there is some kind of interconnectedness between beings that could be acheived in dreams. Maybe it's due to reading too much Carlos Castenada! (lol)

But regardless of whether possibilities like this really do exist or not, I think it is very cool you dreamt about it and experienced what you did so that you can ponder it in your daily life and perhaps meet others who share the same experience.

For now my dreams are very insular - that is to say, I am fairly confident I don't share them with anyone else.

Your story piqued my interest though - and who knows, maybe I will have similar thoughts/dreams in time too!

I almost believed it, in the beginning. That I was not on base. That I was off center to a degree. I all most believed it was ok to rape my DC's. I saw that it was what we supported right? That we are in control, created everything, and can do whatever we want? Right??

I almost believed it, in the beginning. I almost believed that being told my dream was not real. I almost trusted this forum to offer plausible guidance after sharing my experience. I almost had my mind warped when someone told me what I felt was not possible.

Skeptics are real evil people arent they?

You're welcome.