Beyond Beleif

[The Cusp]

I would like to take this opportunity to correct a dreaming misconception that has been getting passed around like a bad STD. Mainly the role that belief plays in dreams. They way in which belief shapes dreams is very much misunderstood, or at the very least inaccurate. People are always saying if you want something to work in dreams, you have to believe it will work. This is not the case at all. Last night I had a dream where I snuck a ride in the back of an old lady's van. Didn't seem like she was capable of noticing me, she was barely aware enough to drive. And just as I thought to myself "There is no way she's going to notice me", she turned around, saw me and freaked. Later in the same dream, while running from the cops, I hid in a house, only to hear the home owner enter. Again I thought to myself "There is no way this house could belong to the old lady from earlier". I totally believed it, the odds of that happening (in my mind) were astronomical. But sure enough, in walks the poor traumatized lady, who gets even more freaked out finding me in her house. In both instances, I truly believed certain things weren't going to happen, and yet they did. My belief had zero effect. In fact the exact opposite of what I believed happend! In my particular case, I was using my beliefs combined with negatives. She's not going to look at me, this is not going to be her house. Those negatives have no effect whatsoever on dreams. The events that unfolded happened because I had invoked the image of what I didn't want to happen, and that's what I got. Had nothing to do with belief. If believing has any effect on dreams, then it's from belief systems, and those systems are more important than the actual belief. If you want something to happen, you need to invoke a system that contains that which you want to make happen. This can be done simply by thinking about it. So stop telling people to believe to make dreams work. Believe me, you're not doing anyone any favors by repeating stuff like that.

[eppy]

A lot of times when I believe something will happen, it doesn't. Every once in a while it does work. I guess it just depends on luck.

[Kuhnada29]

what were you doing in an old ladys car? and what were you doing running from the police lol i had to ask lol

[Specialis Sapientia]

Actually when you think like that, the opposite will likely occur. That is how the mind sometimes work in dreams. When you make the thought "There is no way she's going to notice me" your mind starts to react to it. Maybe you imagine that she is going to notice you, but still think that she won't, but your mind has already start working on that thougt, and thought it dreams means a lot to what is going on. Imagine this in a dream: You stand before a door, you start to think of a thing you don't want to see, you say to yourself "When I open this door I won't see X", but you are never 100 % sure, suddenly you starts to worry, what if X is hiding behind the door? What if some monster appear.. Your mind is then occupied with these thoughts, and if/when they ecsalate they will manifest into your dreams. It is almost like you provoke your mind when you say or think alike"I totally believed it, the odds of that happening (in my mind) were astronomical" Next time you come across something like this, ignore the thought and it will disappear. When your belief in your dream can yield a negative outcome, the chance is that some doubt remains, if not conscious then at the sunconscious level. I think a lot of people have expierence with some troubles with flying, when you start to doubt or hesitate for 1 second, one will start to fail. When no thought are given, or you KNOW but don't believe you will fly without problems. (Btw, my use of "you" is not pointed at you Cusp, just "you" the generel people")

[Amethyst Star]

You bring up a good point, Cusp. Sometimes sheer force of will isn't enough to bring us what we want. Sometimes it does. More important than belief, I feel, is creativity. Example: I think a lot of people have experience with some troubles with flying, when you start to doubt or hesitate for 1 second, one will start to fail. When no thought are given, or you KNOW but don't believe you will fly without problems. Even if someone has a lingering doubt as to whether or not something will work, you can find some way to make it work. Specialis is on the right track with simply going for something without standing there thinking about how it could fail. The longer you stand on the end of a diving board, the further away it seems to be from the water. Enjoy the dream! If there's something you want to accomplish, go for it, but don't be afraid to try different ways to get what you want. If you think that by dousing yourself in oil you can fly, try it! It will probably work. It may not work for the next person, but your mind knows what can work for you. Don't get stressed out if you can't do something right away, either. It may just be a phase and it may just be something you need to practice with. Belief is a good thing to have while lucid. Confidence will take you far. But it's creativity and persistence that will get you results.

[Higurashi]

Belief has always helped me in lucids.. I think this is something like the "best induction technique", in the sense that it differs with each individual.

[The Cusp]

You bring up a good point, Cusp. Sometimes sheer force of will isn't enough to bring us what we want. Sometimes it does. More important than belief, I feel, is creativity. Example: While I agree totally that creativity is a major important part, I don't think it's really the key. The key is invoking the correct personal representation system. Being creative just gives you a lot more option to do so. Say you are battling vampires in your dream. Depending on the stories you are familiar with, they will reflect those abilities tied to those particular stories. But all vampires get toasted by sunlight (or UV light, like in Blade). If you've never seen blade, it might never occur to you that UV light would damage vamps, and therefor that particular system or tactic would be ineffective. That's just a system that is common for everyone, and your dreams unfold within the confines of those systems. The solution within that vampire system is to fry them with light. Everyone has slight variations to those systems, based on their personal experience. But you don't have to use any one system. Instead of using light against vampires, you could use a superman system, where you have his powers, sort of mixing your metaphors. If you're a very religious person, then you have a developed religious system, and you invoke that for help from god or whatever. But it only works withing the confines of your personal system. what were you doing in an old ladys car? and what were you doing running from the police lol i had to ask lol Just sneaking a ride when she stopped at a stop sign. She freaked when she saw me and called the police, who were then chasing me. I think it was a variation of a bumper shagg scenario, where you grab onto the rear bumper of a schoolbus as a kid and let it pull you along icy roads.

[Burned up]

From what I can tell there are so many systems at work in dreams. All I know is that in my dreams, certain themes are very common. Other themes (that I read in these forums) I never experience. I would be totally reluctant to suggest that anything that might work for me must therefore work generally. So developing a certain belief system may or may not work. Being creative may or may not work. The best we can hope for is to explore more about our own dreaming processes - which seem to be far more complex and unpredictable than I think I'll ever understand. I believe that the more I recall and analyse my dreams, the more my dreams seem to follow the meaning system I'm developing. But others may not find that at all.

[Hazel]

I'm glad you posted this, Cusp! I've been wondering about this too. In fact, I actually thought there might be some glitch in my brain, because I've always heard "If you believe you can do it, then you can!" I honestly believed I could fly through a wall in one of my lucids, (it never even occured to me that I wouldn't be able to) and I crashed headfirst very painfully.

[Liberty]

The thing is when you think something your subconcious mind sometimes takes over even when you don't want it to. The act of "thinking" caused those effects. I've never had any problem thinking I can do something in a dream and doing it. It hasn't failed me in 10+ years since I've been aware that I can lucid dream. Some nights take more concentration than others. Yes, I've had the same issues as you. If you don't want it to happen, don't think it (I know it's hard). Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that whatever you think will happen but there's a chance. It's just the act of "thinking" that causes it. It's annoying yes, but it's one of the things I like because it keeps lucid dreaming interesting for me. It's unexpected, and I have to think of other ways (ie. powers) to get myself out of a situation.