Thread: Has anyone tried Zeo?

Glad to hear both of you, Nunosi and DawgBone, have had reasonably good first nights with Zeo. I look forward to hearing how you like them as you spend more time with them.

DawgBone, probably the most common mistake I see my Zeo making is mistaking wake for REM...normally it is easy to tell when it is a mistake though since it'll go back and forth on its decision. Whereas when you are "actually" in REM, it'll show REM consistently for quite some time.

I'll be sending you, DawgBone, the library and associated files for development tomorrow. As a teaser for everyone else, here is a screenshot of a GUI I developed showing all of the data that will soon be available in real time:

The larger up and then down movement you can see in the waveform, is from me moving my eyes left and back to center.

I've been out of action for the past few days due to a fun case of Labyrinthitis, so I've been unable to sleep with the Zeo on without discomfort. However I was able to wear it again last night finally.

Like DawgBone above it does seem fairly easy to confuse Zeo (intentionally or not) about the difference between REM and Waking. Last night according to the Zeo I was awake for a grand total of four minutes before going into Light Sleep however, even though I was doing my usual ritual of tossing and turning for a good half an hour. So I tend to disregard the first and last sections of the Zeo report based on its inability to distinguish between the two. Beyond that though I find it reports your sleep state pretty confidently.

To Brian, do you know how much the placement and tightness on your forehead has to do with the accuracy of it's readings?

Nunosi,
For the most part placement and tightness shouldn't matter for accuracy. The exception would be if the headband is slipping around and moving quite a lot during the night - in which case more wake will often be reported.

It's been almost a month since you last posted. Would you mind updating your review of the Zeo? I'm thinking of buying it but am concerned because of some negative reviews I've read that claim the Zeo "makes up" the data and doesn't really measure your sleep stages. I've read about people doing experiments where they wore the band, wide awake, and stared at the Zeo watching it show their transition from awake to light sleep to deep sleep, all the time being actually awake.

If the people from Zeo are still following this thread, it would be nice to hear from them too.

Hi stjimmy,

Zeo has been repeatedly validated, check out this site to read about some of the studies.

Predicting which sleepstage you are in is a very difficult problem and humans scorers will often even disagree with each other as to which sleepstage you are in. It is not surprising that Zeo occasionally will get things wrong, but I assure you that it does not make data up.

On a personal note, I have woken up from dreams a ton of times and looked at Zeo to see it saying I had been in REM for about as long as I expected. I have not looked over and discovered it thought I was in some sleepstage yet. I have had times where it mistakes my being awake for being a sleepstage, but it usually corrects the problem after a few minutes.

A humorous occasion was a time when I had been going in out of sleep first thing in the morning. That stage where you aren't quite sure if you are awake, or dreaming, or what. Maybe a few delirious thoughts and the such. When I remembered later to look at Zeo it had almost a random distribution of wake, light, and rem sleep for the 10-20mins this occurred. It was an entertaining validation of Zeo for me.

Hope this helps and that the others on this thread will chime in with their own experiences as well.

-Brian

Thanks for the info, Brian. I'll take a look at the page you posted.

I guess that, in any case, if I were to find that the Zeo is not following my sleep accurately I could exercise the money back warranty, right?

Originally Posted by BrianS

Predicting which sleepstage you are in is a very difficult problem and humans scorers will often even disagree with each other as to which sleepstage you are in. It is not surprising that Zeo occasionally will get things wrong, but I assure you that it does not make data up.

This is surely true. What about hypnagogia? You are not asleep, but you are not awake: random specks of light, lines, geometric patterns, etc playing on the inside of your eyelids, etc. etc. The neat division of sleep into wake, light sleep, deep sleep and REM is a bit of a fiction. REM is probably the most clearly defined because of the physical movement of the eyes.

It's my experience that Zeo is mostly right, particularly the percentage of deep sleep, light sleep, REM and wake. If you want to measure and quantify the effect of 4mgs melatonin, Zeo is the right tool. If you want to measure and quantify the effect of WBTB on the amount of REM, Zeo is the right tool.

If you want to measure and quantify the effect of 4mgs melatonin, Zeo is the right tool. If you want to measure and quantify the effect of WBTB on the amount of REM, Zeo is the right tool.

You have done this?

Originally Posted by stjimmy

You have done this?

I haven't done it in any rigorous, scientific sense, but I have done it informally.

And yes, melatonin does increase deep sleep in the first 4 hours while diminishing REM, with a potential rebound in the second 4 hours. Zeo will let you adjust your dosage to get the effect you want, using the minimum about of supplement.

I haven't used it to quantify WBTB yet, but intend to do that.

My Zeo will come tomorrow and I'm excited. Mostly, initially, I'm just interested in understand and improving my general sleep habits. But as I get used to it, I'll surely be pondering patterns and experiments relevant to lucid dreams.

Originally Posted by sisyphus

My Zeo will come tomorrow and I'm excited. Mostly, initially, I'm just interested in understand and improving my general sleep habits. But as I get used to it, I'll surely be pondering patterns and experiments relevant to lucid dreams.

Please let us know your impressions!

this is relevant to my interests, i might get one but i'm gonna wait some more

I'll probably order one in the next few days, I'll let you guys know how it goes.

In a nutshell, here's how it works:
- You wear a headband at night (battery-powered, recharges while docked to the alarm clock)
- The headband transmits your brainwave readings to an alarm clock
- The alarm clock graphs your sleep state in real-time (wake, REM, light, deep)
- In the morning, you transfer the data to the website via an SD memory card (included, along with an SD to USB adapter)
- On the website, you complete a short survey ("Sleep Journal") of how you felt last evening, in the morning, and throughout the day, considering factors such as eating, stress, and environment
- You can analyze everything on the website with charts that combine your brainwave data with your Sleep Journal scores
- Zeo sends to you emails and offers "Coaching" articles to develop an "Action Plan" to help you understand and improve your sleep

I echo everything DawgBone said about the product design. It's a stylish and well-designed product made from quality materials, even down to the packaging. They put a lot of effort into making the headband as comfortable as possible. The website is also quite user friendly. One thing worth noting is that the electronic part of the headband needs to be replaced every 3 months (probably the battery eventually loses it's ability to hold a charge). The package comes with 2 units, a 6 months supply. After that, there may be an ongoing cost to have a Zeo.

So how can any of this apply to our quest for lucid dreams?

The product is geared more toward improving overall sleep quality; such as falling asleep sooner, staying asleep through the night, and getting as much restorative deep and REM sleep. The coaching mostly has to do with your habits near bed time regarding eating, stress, environment, and such. I think it's a promising product for anyone who wants to improve their sleep, if the price and time investment are right for you.

For lucid dreaming, the most compelling benefit is to know when and how long my REM periods are. Armed with this information, I can experiment and choose the best times to attempt DEILD or WILD. I can also imagine some experiments with WBTB or supplements to make my REM periods longer or more predictable.

It's only been one night, but I'm quite happy with it. Obviously, it's no substitute for the discipline and techniques that we practice specifically for lucid dream. I'll update more after I've collected more data.