Can you do anything in LD? What about morality?

[Nedjma]

Hi, all, I would like to raise the question of morality in lucid dreaming. Some of us who are advanced in the practise of Lucid Dreaming may wonder about morality and responsiblity in dreams. If we are lucid, surely, a bad action is a bad action? What about karma? Isnt killing, and fulfilling bad actions still affecting our psychological development? I started asking myself the question after the following dream (among others): I found myself attracted to a young man and being lucid, I tried to force a kiss on him and while pushing me away, he replied that it wasn't because I was "master" of the dream that he should answer to my desires. And believe me, it wasnt a simple case of enacting some sort of rejection issue, the dream had this special quality, which you visit other planes. { For those who know what I'm talking about, those dreams are particularly precise with a recognisalbe richness of the senses: depth of sound, spectrum of colours, stretched sense of time etc.) } When it is difficult to know when I am in a past life memory, or another plane, or a personal sphere, shouldnt I worry about being righteous at all times? Or should I let those embarassing memories teach me about my darker side and carry on working on them? Any thoughts on the subject? Thanks, *N*

[Krippe]

I see it all like this when I'm in a dream: it is in my mind, my world and my reality. if I want something i will have it, no mather the obstacle. And since it is in my reality i can decide if it is against MY morals. If I feel murder and rape is okay in my dream then it is, and another i might think, no it's not, so i chill. I believe people are restricting their fun in dreams if they worry about morals.

[Nedjma]

Yes, you are right, our mind belongs to us and we do what we want with it, but what if you ARE SURE that you are not in a place inside your mind, but some place where the people around you are for real (and nor necessarily incarnated on Earth, say) I always to what I want anyway, but dont you think this is an appropriate question in that case?

[Krippe]

Originally posted by Nedjma Yes, you are right, our mind belongs to us and we do what we want with it, * but what if you *ARE SURE that you are not in a place inside your mind, but some place where the people around you are for real (and nor necessarily incarnated on Earth, say) I always to what I want anyway, but dont you think this is an appropriate question in that case? if you mean like a shared dream or something then i might be a bit nicer... if they knew it was a shared dream to, that is...

[Seeker]

I've taken this position a number of times. You might want to do a search on it, there have been a lot of good discussions about it. My view is that conciousness is conciousness, whether it is waking conciousness or it is lucid conciousness. They are the same, so, therefore, why should you have two sets of morality to which you adhere? One for waking and one for lucid? Morals are morals and where is the rightiousness if you are doing things in your lucid dreams that you consider immoral during waking life?

[Nedjma]

Thanks Seeker, it sounds live a very unified vision of the mind, which I like. *N*

[Oneironaut Zero]

Well, in the defense of all of the Comic book writers, Action cartoonists, video game developers etc, who sometimes use immoral (sp) scenarios in a story, who may also be the most humble, down-to-earth, benevolent person in "real" life, I will say this: The distinction between moral and immoral (especially when dealing with dreams) is a matter of perspective. It depends on many more factors than the action itself. It depends on your beliefs on "Reality." Doing something in a lucid dream is only immoral if you believe that dreams are windows to other realms. Even then, it is only immoral if you believe that the DC you are interacting with is a being from one of those other worlds. The existence of these planes are still a matter of debate, and I don't think it's fair to judge anyone as moral or immoral for what actions they take in their dreams without having direct confirmation that they are having some sort of effect on the conscious experience of some separate entity, or that their actions are undeniably placing more negative energy in the cosmos. (Which may very well be true, but who knows this for certain?) However, if negative energy bit is true, then I would figure that the negative energy would only grow if the person doing the act was doing so with negative intentions. If they strongly believed that their actions are having no negative affect in the universe, especially if they are the type that would stop doing the action if they new otherwise, does this still make them immoral? Granted, I have a very high level of respect for my waking world morals, and I'm not even the type of guy that will commit deeds that I find absolutely evil in a lucid dream (raping, killing children/innocent people for fun, etc) but it is not because I feel that I'd be having some sort of affect on some other astral entity. Maybe my waking world morals have simply developed my distaste for it that carries over into my dreams as well. But I feel there is a definite separation between my imagination and what I think will, somehow, contradict my true morals.

[BeautifulDreamer]

It's a mixed feeling for me. First off, It's my mind, and I can do with it what I want. BUT, It's your mind. Killing something in there, who knows, It could be a memory, a feeling, whatever. It really just depends on your view of things.

[juroara]

Lets imagine someone is having a lucid dream. They take note of every detail. They find a DC and take out a small knife. The DC greets them like an old friend "hi!" they run up to the DC and stab them repeatidly. The dream is graphic and realistic, the DC is screaming and blood is flying everywhere. The dreamer laughs and finds this excites him..really EXCITES him. The DC is on the floor, nearly dead - but before the DC dies the dreamer decides to have some more fun. The dreamer takes some trophies with him, first the ears, then the eyes, then the tongue and then the intestines. The dream is very realistic, not like a video game. The dreamer then takes his trophies, and mounts them like a work of art. The dreamer loses control of his lucid dream. But he wakes up smiling, even laughing, and he thinks to himself "That was a lot of fun" Morality matters in a dream becuase the dream is your head : its your subonscious and your conscious. Whether the dream is lucid, or not, it still reflects you. It would be hypocritical for that dreamer to be against mutilating other human beings, when he DOES enjoy doing it himself. His dreams reveal that he is NOT against mutilating people, despite whatever he says in waking life. ******************************** Morality is a subjective thing, no one can force you to believe something is morally right or wrong. Im not saying if you kill someone in a dream that you are going to kill someone in real life but I am saying what you do in a dream will always reflect YOU. being moral in a dream IS NOT going to stop you from having fun either what MOST people concider WRONG, they would not find they had fun doing it in a dream. my friend is vegan, and in a NON lucid dream she found herself eating and tearing apart live frogs. she did not wake up feeling like she had fun.......she did not wake up thinking "I want to have that dream again..YAY!" she felt bad but thats the point I am trying to make. if you really do concider something morally wrong, even if you do it in a dream, you are NOT going to have fun doing it. you are going to wake up guilt ridden. the dream never fails to reflect you, you will feel guilt if you are against it. if you have FUN raping an innocent victom in a highly lucid and realistic dream, that doesnt mean you would rape someone in real life..but it does mean..IF you did...IF...and IF you ever did..you would enjoy it. MAYBE LATER YOULL FEEL GUILTY, but in that moment you enjoyed it. the other thing you have to understand we do a lot of crazy things in our dream that seem to go against our morality. its not really going against our morality, just our social constraints. social constraints have to do with NOW, the culture, and not what mankind will always concider moral. our conscious tells us we shouldn't do these things in the waking world, but our subconscious tells us..were NOT against doing those things either!! orgies, turning into werewolves gobbling up people, tormenting your teachers, unleashing total chaos at work or school, over throwing the government, even incest for others, acting like a wild animal - the list goes on!!!

[Krippe]

if you feel the same about mutilating/rape/murder etc in dreams as you do in real life... i need to be locked in and never to be let out again

[Seeker]

Originally posted by Krippe if you feel the same about mutilating/rape/murder etc in dreams as you do in real life... i need to be locked in and never to be let out again * Hmm....is that maybe a little guilt starting to show through. I wish your adopter was here, O'nus would have fun with this! I guess juroara nailed it best. If you feel even the slightest hint of guilt or remorse for something you do in a lucid dream, no matter how hard you try to reason it away, then you have most likely violated your morals. Oneironaut you draw the line at possibly hurting real astral beings as your limits, this is commendable, however, are you hurting your own spirit by doing these things? One thing I am afraid of is moral erosion. If you do something long enough in a lucid dream, how long is it going to be before you begin to wonder what it would be like to do that thing in waking life? All you guys reading this, I know you've had thoughts of raping someone at some time, most likely because of how the woman has treated you. Does raping in a lucid dream provide an outlet for your anger or does it erode you resolve never to commit a rape?

[Krippe]

Originally posted by Seeker Hmm....is that maybe a little guilt starting to show through. Never! Guilt is for the weak! *washes himself with sandpaper and gasoline* GO AWAY! GO AWAY!!

[Oneironaut Zero]

Originally posted by Seeker Oneironaut you draw the line at possibly hurting real astral beings as your limits, this is commendable, however, are you hurting your own spirit by doing these things? * One thing I am afraid of is moral erosion. *If you do something long enough in a lucid dream, how long is it going to be before you begin to wonder what it would be like to do that thing in waking life? *All you guys reading this, I know you've had thoughts of raping someone at some time, most likely because of how the woman has treated you. *Does raping in a lucid dream provide an outlet for your anger or does it erode you resolve never to commit a rape? As far as my spirit is concerned, I don't believe I'm hurting it. The reason being is because I believe in the harmlessness of my dream actions. Think about it this way: I strongly believe in my ability to separate an experience that I would see only as fictional and an experience that I would see, even in the slightest, as threatening to my morals. It is not that I am slowly eroding away to a negative force, because I honestly believe that there is no negative force in my imaginary actions. There is no guilt because there is no wrong. Stepping on a dog’s foot in waking life makes me feel guilty. Playing Grand Theft Auto does not. Do I find the concept of peoples’ cars getting stolen and shooting cops fun? Absolutely not. Is it an interesting experience when put into the storyline of a videogame where there is a vast distinction between fantasy and make believe? I think so. Why? Because violence without consequence is not violence. Fighting without a desire to seriously injure the other person is Sparring. It is mutual sport, most professionally, without any negative energy. When two Shaolin monks are practicing day in and day out, sparring each other for conditioning, does it mean they are “enjoying violence?” No. They are doing what they are doing for self defense and experience. Even if they Love sparring. Even if they eat sleep and breathe martial arts, does this mean that every fighter is more prone to commit acts of violence outside of their morally inconsequential training? I really don’t think so. Of course some of them are, but that is a testament to the morals they had before taking up martial arts, or the views of morality that they developed Outside the scope of martial arts training, itself. Why is this? Because any disciplined Monk/Martial artist is able to make that distinction between sport and violence. There is a barrier there that only the morally undisciplined (imo) cross. THAT is precisely how I see fighting in my dreams. It is a way to experience something without consequence. It is a way to fulfill (generally) every human’s thirst for action and adventure without breaking any waking world morals to do it. I think the ability to live on two sides of that proverbial fence is but one interpretation of the essence of yin and yang. As far as the rape analogy goes: I have never, and will never (as far as I’m concerned) thought about rape in any sort of positive light. Not even to the credit of pure curiosity. Even so, I know where you’re coming from. There is always the possibility that someone’s curiosity can get the better of them and they can become more desensitized to the concept of rape, child molestation, etc. etc. but, just like with my martial arts analogy, I think this is unique from person to person, not universal, and stems from moral instabilities that go a little deeper than “exposure to the experience” alone. In other words, what is dangerous to the morals of some is absolutely benign to others. It depends on their beliefs, background, philosophy, and virtues. Is imagination an outlet for wish-fulfillment or an arena for inconsequential experience? Only the person doing the imagining can say.

[juroara]

Originally posted by Krippe if you feel the same about mutilating/rape/murder etc in dreams as you do in real life... i need to be locked in and never to be let out again * ok...male? figures. I hope the only reason why you dream of rape is becuase as a male you just have no clue........ you sound ignorant as to what rape really is. call me a bitch or get me banned from this forum. I dont care. if you really are dreaming of rape and are a-ok about it then you are on your way to becoming a rapist. Rape is easier to commit than murder or killing someone. And unlike killing someone on the spot becuase you became angry and lost control of your emotions, rape is not like that. Its starts in your head. It starts in your fantasies. In your DREAMS. Killing does not. Rape is not a person forcing themself on another while that other screams. No, sweetheart. Thats not rape. That is not rape. There is nothing short of funny, cute or even sexy about rape. Do you have any clue how the female body works? Do you really thinks she has to want sex to let you in? Its not like an erection. No desire, absolutely no desire is needed from the body to penetrate a woman. The flesh there is stretchable for child birth. An opening is always present. Do you understand? The biggest myth that ignorant guys buy into is that a woman has to want it to be penetrated. Lets give you some real rape scenarios if this is still not settling in. A single mother and her daughter come home after eating out. The went out to eat LUNCH. Its day time. The sun is up and shining bright. They share one thing in common with the average rape victom - THEY LIVE ON THE FIRST FLOOR. Thats the only crime a woman has to commit to be an EASY rape victom. The rapists watches them from the window and waits for them to get comfortable. He makes sure they put their purses down, and their cell phones away from their grasp. He makes his entry as quiet as possible. The mother hears something, paranoid she gets up. But before either the daugher or mother can react he shots the mother. Shes not dead. Still breathing. But its enough to shock her. And its enough to have the daughter lose all sense and control. The rapists commands the daughter to undress. Shes still in shock screaming and doesnt do anything. So the rapist moves to the mother trying to stop the bleeding, and puts the gun to the mothers head instead. And he commands again "Undress" Mental processes kick in, and the daughter doesn't know how she did it, but she did. Shes naked. The rapist then commands that she undresses her mother now. He moves the gun to the daughters head, and sometimes he presses the gun very harshly into her skin to make it very clear how serious he is. Is he going to shot her in the head? No. But the rapist knows to put a gun to someones head is control. He commands them both to lay down next to eachother, so that both are in plain view. And he thinks which is sweeter. A mom watching her daughter get raped or a daughter watching her mom get raped? He decides both are just as good so he does both. And when he rapes one he holds the gun at the other. He remains in control and this is what he likes most about rape. Control and controlling a woman. There is no pleasure for the daughter and mother. No orgasm. Nothing. The mother passes out. His time is spent. By now the nieghbors must have called the police if theyre smart. He tells the daughter not to move. The daughter is so afraid and out of her mind she can't tell if the rapist has left or if hes right behind her waiting to see if she moves, waiting to kill her. The mother is rushed to the hospital, shes lives. The police ask the daughter to describe the rapist, but shes tramautized, she can't. The police only want to help and stop the rapist, but sadly, like most victoms she doesnt even want to talk to the police. The rapist walks away. And he tells himself he did nothing wrong. Its not like he killed anyone, it was never his intention. All he did was have no sex. No harm done right? And he thinks to himself, they probably enjoyed it. He goes home to his own wife and his OWN daughter. This is reality and this happens all the damn bloody time. Do you REALLY know what rape is like? Have you ever met a homophobic man whos temper rose with the words anal-sex ? Any guesses as to why? Are your dreams REALLY like this? ************************************************** ************* http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art13545.asp "If you are a man and have recurring dreams of raping someone, please talk to someone. You may have issues that may lead to domestic violence or actual rape." http://www.dcrcc.org/myths.htm http://www.dcrcc.org/assault-facts.htm "51-60% of college men report they would rape a woman if they were certain that they would get away with it. One out of twelve college men surveyed had committed acts that met the legal definition of rape; 84% of these men said what they did was DEFINITELY not rape." "84% of rapes go unreported"

[Nedjma]

Thanks for your posts, guys. I shouldnt worry too much about what one does in dreams: We live in animal bodies and our brain enacts natural pulsions of construction and (self-)destruction during our sleep. That is sound, and always will be. I was more thinking of how to behave when you reach other worlds than your own: do our actions count as for good Karma, bad Karma..etc.etc. I will definitely settle with the idea that you choose to see as"bad" and "good" is subjective to your own development. Also, to be honest, I was more concerned about not helping myself getting memories that my Waking Self finds difficult to deal with; rather than harming others in dreams. Seeker, you called it "mental erosion". I would now call it "mental struggle", as we all struggle to make opposites live together in this world. Thanks again! *N*

[Nedjma]

Juroara, Kippe, You're making me feel uncomfortable talking about those nasty stuff. As I said, I wouldnt start talking about animal pulsions too much. This is a rather dark subject to raise and not everyone is ready to understand the human being with all its beauty and horror. (Remember what this forum is for, ok?) Cheers, N

[Krippe]

Originally posted by juroara+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(juroara)</div> <!--QuoteBegin-Krippe if you feel the same about mutilating/rape/murder etc in dreams as you do in real life... i need to be locked in and never to be let out again * ok...male? figures. I hope the only reason why you dream of rape is becuase as a male you just have no clue........[/b] ouch... soft spot? anyway, I havent raped anyone in my dreams (as i can recall anyway...), the womens in my dreams love me for some reason... either way i dreamed of people being raped (hell i dreamed i was one of the victims...), not by me, i've also dreamed about murdering my own mother that doesnt mean that i want her dead (she's a fantastic mother). I dont like how you rant me because of stuff happening in my dreams! My dreams are often with a dark atmosphere, nothing i can control (atleast not in the non-lucid ones). Still if I would one night find rape intresting or amusing (on some sick dream logic state) I would set it up (maybe the daughter and mother) in THE DREAM. never IRL. I respect peple's bodies and etc etc <moral stuff> I find it very disturbing that you are that judgemental about me for the sttuff that i dreamt about. but if it's a sensitive subject for you then i'm sorry.

[juroara]

Originally posted by Krippe I find it very disturbing that you are that judgemental about me for the sttuff that i dreamt about. great way to use the word disturbing and turn around a situation and completely ignore what I am saying if you dont dream about raping then dont say you do, and thats partly why I made my post becuase I didnt think you really did. I doubt most guys even think the same thing as females when the word "rape" is even said ...to be raped in a dream is an age old dream theme that tends to mean either 1. you want sex 2. you feel like a victom. do not lump it together with the same as raping. to actually rape someone in a dream shows a desire that you WANT to rape. Especially if you are lucid. There is no way around this reality. We do in lucid dreams what we desire. that reality and this reality remains : most victoms will always be female, and most rapists will always be male. you are male. I am female and how can you ask me, a FEMALE, to not be the least disturbed if a MAN ...........................gets turned on by the SLIGHTEST in dreams or in waking by-----rape??? how can I say with comfort "Oh that doesn't mean he will rape, its just a dream" when no one understands the switch between a rapist and a non rapist. rapists ARE NOT INSANE, and they act like normal men outside of rape. the first step to stopping rape is educating MEN why MEN rape. but how can we do that if we carry the attitude "its okay to dream about raping women whenever you want" rapists aren't born. they are taught as whole by OTHER MEN that raping is desirable, cool, sexy and ok. so what do you think the attitude "its ok to rape women in dreams" does?? but whatever, I'm tired

[Krippe]

Originally posted by juroara+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(juroara)</div> <!--QuoteBegin-Krippe I find it very disturbing that you are that judgemental about me for the sttuff that i dreamt about. great way to use the word disturbing and turn around a situation and completely ignore what I am saying if you dont dream about raping then dont say you do, and thats partly why I made my post becuase I didnt think you really did. I doubt most guys even think the same thing as females when the word "rape" is even said ...to be raped in a dream is an age old dream theme that tends to mean either 1. you want sex 2. you feel like a victom. do not lump it together with the same as raping. to actually rape someone in a dream shows a desire that you WANT to rape. Especially if you are lucid. There is no way around this reality. We do in lucid dreams what we desire. that reality and this reality remains : most victoms will always be female, and most rapists will always be male. you are male. I am female and how can you ask me, a FEMALE, to not be the least disturbed if a MAN ...........................gets turned on by the SLIGHTEST in dreams or in waking by-----rape??? how can I say with comfort "Oh that doesn't mean he will rape, its just a dream" when no one understands the switch between a rapist and a non rapist. rapists ARE NOT INSANE, and they act like normal men outside of rape. the first step to stopping rape is educating MEN why MEN rape. but how can we do that if we carry the attitude "its okay to dream about raping women whenever you want" rapists aren't born. they are taught as whole by OTHER MEN that raping is desirable, cool, sexy and ok. so what do you think the attitude "its ok to rape women in dreams" does?? but whatever, I'm tired [/b] Wtf? I did not try to work it around or anything like that, i just dont like being labeled as an ignorant stupid male fu*k just because of my dreams! and stop lecturing me about raping! i promise oyu I won't rape anyone... ...in the waking world

[.jared.]

Originally posted by juroara+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(juroara)</div> <!--QuoteBegin-Krippe if you feel the same about mutilating/rape/murder etc in dreams as you do in real life... i need to be locked in and never to be let out again * ok...male? figures. I hope the only reason why you dream of rape is becuase as a male you just have no clue........ you sound ignorant as to what rape really is. call me a bitch or get me banned from this forum. I dont care. if you really are dreaming of rape and are a-ok about it then you are on your way to becoming a rapist. Rape is easier to commit than murder or killing someone. And unlike killing someone on the spot becuase you became angry and lost control of your emotions, rape is not like that. Its starts in your head. It starts in your fantasies. In your DREAMS. Killing does not. Rape is not a person forcing themself on another while that other screams. No, sweetheart. Thats not rape. That is not rape. There is nothing short of funny, cute or even sexy about rape. Do you have any clue how the female body works? Do you really thinks she has to want sex to let you in? Its not like an erection. No desire, absolutely no desire is needed from the body to penetrate a woman. The flesh there is stretchable for child birth. An opening is always present. Do you understand? The biggest myth that ignorant guys buy into is that a woman has to want it to be penetrated. Lets give you some real rape scenarios if this is still not settling in. A single mother and her daughter come home after eating out. The went out to eat LUNCH. Its day time. The sun is up and shining bright. They share one thing in common with the average rape victom - THEY LIVE ON THE FIRST FLOOR. Thats the only crime a woman has to commit to be an EASY rape victom. The rapists watches them from the window and waits for them to get comfortable. He makes sure they put their purses down, and their cell phones away from their grasp. He makes his entry as quiet as possible. The mother hears something, paranoid she gets up. But before either the daugher or mother can react he shots the mother. Shes not dead. Still breathing. But its enough to shock her. And its enough to have the daughter lose all sense and control. The rapists commands the daughter to undress. Shes still in shock screaming and doesnt do anything. So the rapist moves to the mother trying to stop the bleeding, and puts the gun to the mothers head instead. And he commands again "Undress" Mental processes kick in, and the daughter doesn't know how she did it, but she did. Shes naked. The rapist then commands that she undresses her mother now. He moves the gun to the daughters head, and sometimes he presses the gun very harshly into her skin to make it very clear how serious he is. Is he going to shot her in the head? No. But the rapist knows to put a gun to someones head is control. He commands them both to lay down next to eachother, so that both are in plain view. And he thinks which is sweeter. A mom watching her daughter get raped or a daughter watching her mom get raped? He decides both are just as good so he does both. And when he rapes one he holds the gun at the other. He remains in control and this is what he likes most about rape. Control and controlling a woman. There is no pleasure for the daughter and mother. No orgasm. Nothing. The mother passes out. His time is spent. By now the nieghbors must have called the police if theyre smart. He tells the daughter not to move. The daughter is so afraid and out of her mind she can't tell if the rapist has left or if hes right behind her waiting to see if she moves, waiting to kill her. The mother is rushed to the hospital, shes lives. The police ask the daughter to describe the rapist, but shes tramautized, she can't. The police only want to help and stop the rapist, but sadly, like most victoms she doesnt even want to talk to the police. The rapist walks away. And he tells himself he did nothing wrong. Its not like he killed anyone, it was never his intention. All he did was have no sex. No harm done right? And he thinks to himself, they probably enjoyed it. He goes home to his own wife and his OWN daughter. This is reality and this happens all the damn bloody time. Do you REALLY know what rape is like? Have you ever met a homophobic man whos temper rose with the words anal-sex ? Any guesses as to why? Are your dreams REALLY like this? [/b] irony!

[Oneironaut Zero]

Who votes that Nedjma gets her thread back? 'Ey Jared, Nice sig.

[.jared.]

Originally posted by Oneironaut 'Ey Jared, * Nice sig. haha. i hope you don't mind. I wasn't sure if you made it up or not. I'll add your name if you want. ha. i like it.

[Oneironaut Zero]

Nah, of course I don't mind. Glad ya like it. And yeah, I made it up for that thread. Heh. You don't have to put my name by it...but it woouuuullld be nice.

[.jared.]

Originally posted by Oneironaut Nah, of course I don't mind. Glad ya like it. And yeah, I made it up for that thread. Heh. You don't have to put my name by it...but it woouuuullld be nice. Awesome. I will put your name there, on other forums i always do. I just didnt want to look like a lucid dreaming noob . I figured the phrase might have been tossed around all the time.

[BillyBob]

morality has absolutely no grounding in dreams. If I'm in a dream then why should i care about what I do? if I rape someone or mutilate someone (and enjoy it) then who cares (note: I haven't mutilated anyone in my dreams ) if you do do it and actually enjoy it then its not like your hurting anyone. I personally do all kinds of sick evil things in my dreams/ lucid dreams. Does that make me a bad person? no it doesn't, if I did it in real life or though "man i wish i could rape ___ in real life" then yes, i would be a bad person. you see, in dreams nothing that you could ever do would ever hurt anyone other than yourself, thus if I said to myself within the dream: "I wonder what it would be like to cause a DC intense pain with a razor blade" (I haven't done this and likely wont for a long long time as I find it disgusting) would that make me any less a good person in real life? of course not. you see lucid dreams and dreams are a gateway to your deepest desires, within them you can do anything you've ever wanted to do but absolutely wouldn't in real life due to its effect on other consciousnesses (raping a women or mutilating a person would scar that person for the rest of their lives. they would always remember that time that guy raped them or tormented them) with a DC though the only thing that you affect is yourself, raping a DC is like thinking about raping someone, it doesn't affect anyone Your all talking about people becoming desensitized by doing it in your dreams and then committing the act in real life. does a 17 year old that's playing GTA shooting up cops and prostitutes go out and buy a gun so he can do it in real life? I would have to say no to that, although there are always the people that have already been thinking about buying a gun and going on a killing spree that might play the game and it tips them over the edge. the same goes for LDs, If I go on a killing spree and mutilate everyone i see with my exacto knife then I'll know that "this is just a dream" within the dream I'm affecting no ones short life experiences" (we only have 75 years, everyone deserves to be able to live without fear from past traumas getting in the way of their experiences) in telling myself that i would proceed to kill everything in sight knowing that it was just an extremely detailed game environment created by my mind. on the other hand there's the people that were already always thinking about raping women and wanted to do it in real life, but they didn't for the fear of getting caught (they didn't care about what effect it would have on the woman, just what effect it could possibly have on them) since they haven't done it yet for fear of getting caught they decide to just do the next best thing and rape women in their dreams. so they have 10 LDs about rape and in the following days they constantly think about the expressions on the women's faces and the intense pain they were causing to the DCs. then finally, they decide that dreaming about it isn't enough for them, they have to have the real thing. so they go out and rape. the difference between the above two people is obvious: one was just raping women in his dreams so he would know what it was like (or to fulfill a sexual urge) and the other had been thinking about rape long before he had the dream and he did it in the dream only because he couldn't do it in real life. so what I'm saying is that its only wrong to do bad deeds in dreams if the only reason your doing them is because you cant do them in real life due to laws and chance of imprisonment (although of course its not wrong to drive your car really fast in a dream just because you can, its only wrong if it would hurt another person) hope you got that. (although I know anything that I say to you your going to blow off and flame me about it just because I said its fine to rape in dreams under certain circumstances. but I'm sure you'll just blow through the rest/ not read it ) note that I do not under any circumstances, endorse rape of any kind outside of your head, it destroys lives. remember, when you rape someone your giving them a traumatic stimulation that they'll never forget, rape makes an impact that never goes away. anyone who has raped or rapes women in real life deserves to be held down and ass-raped by another man. I'm sure they'll enjoy it just as much as the women they raped did. You may think I'm disgusting and totally immoral but the way I see it is that life's short, I don't want to limit my experiences just because it would be bad to do it in real life. in the end all we have is our experiences and memories. so why limit them if building them doesn't hurt anyone in any way? </huge-rant> EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is that its not the actual act that's immoral, its the fact that your affecting another person by committing that act (would it be wrong to rape a blow up sex toy? ) since your in a dream everything your seeing may as well be mindless inanimate objects, thus anything that you do to them will have no affect on them.