Please Identify/classify my experience, Daydream to LD to Daydream

**Valiant** · 01-23-2013 06:35 AM

Hi, all
surprisingly I couldn't find any info on DV about daydreams, since they all are LD y'know
so thought of posting here

I daydream a lot, being a music producer I rely heavily on my imagination, and most of my time is spent that way
at night I often have a reminiscence of my day, a recap if you will, sometimes an interview with my self, about 'did I do the right thing' or 'could I've done that differently' at specific events during the recap.
This is considered normal I read somewhere, but as this is out of the sleeping stage, it's not a dream, and can be considered a daydream, or vivid imagination

the following is my experience and the usual way it goes,
I need help with naming/identifying them properly, since I'm new to these acronyms and definitions
I also don't recall any non-LD, as I'm always aware of my dreaming (during the dream-DILD-this happens rarely once every 8-10years or so during a nightmare)

before actual sleep, dozing off, I usually daydream about a specific concept of my choosing or something I wonder about [in the back of mind] (started spinning a wheel)
Is this considered wake induced lucid dream (WILD)? I'm still trying to find how these terms are related to my specific ways of dreaming.
during this day dream I doze off to sleep where I notice the dream changing it's feel/mood, subtle or drastic, for example in-dream daylight turns too moonlight, change of scene etc. (that way I know "I'm in")
while at no point losing LD awareness, even if I switch my body position in bed with closed eyes (at this point I usually can still do that), while still controlling my embodied in-dream character.

this LD continues during my sleep, and new scenes, events or a whole new dream will be presented ongoing (wheel keeps on spinning as I dozed off completely),
and if the dream has concluded during the night I mostly open my eyes for few secs, checking the time or observing how dark the room is before dozing off back into dream (DEILD is it?)

SIDENOTE: during the night I might go to the bathroom because of a late evening drink
The LD is either uncontrolably paused (mostly cause I don't want to miss anything) or continues like Picture-in-Picture (Lose control of my ID character though)
and resumed willingly when I'm back in bed, if I didn't lose it along the way (lost connection)

after these few secs of checking time etc, the dream following that, will not be a topic I'm aware of before hand, but is still LD as I'm aware of dreaming
NOTE: these can occur multiple times during the night all LD

After dreaming, when my sleep is over and I wake up, I always have the last dream of the night still on my mind
the rest (if there were any) will feel like memory of dreams, it's not some thing I'm actively thinking about, as I also don't want to lose my connection to my last one which is more upfront and vivid.
Sometimes this last dream isn't finished, and I'm disconnected instantly no warnings or notifications (like when the spinning wheel stops to tell me it's time is up wake up now)
I get a few sec lingering window (feels like an "insert coin now to continue" kind of thing)
if I still have time on the clock before work or it's weekend, am gonna try it, cause I eagerly want to know how it ends or what will happen next
never can tell if it would work, but if I don't have much time to sleep-in and go in-dream, I'll most likely oversleep
by the way If I got less than 30mins for getting out of bed
I don't take the risk of oversleeping, unless it's a worthy,life changing or crucial dream

so knowing the last scene, and resuming or replaying the last few in-dream sec,
either going daydream or full-in sleep LD, it may take some time, mostly a few secs to few mins, depending on how sleepy I actually am (coin drop maybe lol)
and after dreaming is all done, I wake-up again, but in some cases do to my lack of time before resuming or not wanting/desire to be late I jumpshock myself out of the unfinished dream
as in waking up shocked "oh shit I'm so late" adrenaline way, this could also be in the middle of the night, like 4.30am having a feeling I'm late when having till 7.00 to sleep till alarm sounds

even considering all this I still feel rested and usually a feeling having a good night sleep, as the last view of my clock before initial dream doze off to my actual wake moment is roughly 6 to 8hrs
I do have some troubling nights once in a wile that I can't sleep and still having daydreams (they might turn to LD and/or induce sleep)
or daydreams and thoughts make me so enthusiastic that I actually can't sleep because I'm so pumped (like having an idea for a song that I need to play on my instrument right a way)
but the result of these nights will make sleep deprivation more apparent/noticeable in the morning
like bags under the eyes, fatigue, excessive yawning during the day etc.

I've been reading up on the forum, only to find my way of being aware and handling my dreams unusual, compared to what other people post
and I cannot tag or name it properly using the terms listed in the DV tutorial and definitions, nor do I know any that might be applicable
so I need your help to name/identify this process of such a night and it's sections, as much as possible,
I can then read up on it, to understand it more fully

thanks for taking the time to read all this, and helping me
sorry for the frequent use of brackets, but I do consider them necessary in telling my story in a more compact & precise manner

awaiting your reply, and input on this
Valiant

**Darkmatters** · 01-23-2013 10:07 PM

Hi Valiant,

It sounds like you have a very powerful imagination that works in visual images, and that's pretty ideal for forming scenarios (daydreams) before you fall asleep that then turn into lucid dreams. This is called dream incubation (essentially giving birth to a dream by planting a suggestion in your mind of what you want to dream about). Yes, it is a WILD technique since you go directly into the dreaming state without losing consciousness along the way. Though I suppose it could also work as a DILD (or MILD?) technique if you fall asleep and later begin to dream of the subject you were daydreaming of. But the way describe it is a WILD.

A question, since I don't see the information in your post - are you able to do this when you first go to bed at night, or does it happen later after getting several hours of sleep and then waking up briefly (wake back to bed or DEILD as you mentioned)? The reason I ask is - most people don't go directly into REM sleep (the rapid eye movement sleep that produces vivid movielike dreams such as the ones you're talking about) when they first go to sleep - it normally takes about 90 minutes to get through the deeper levels of sleep inwhich it's now known we do dream, but not usually with moving images and storylines, usually just streams of thoughts or words or possibly a still image or pattern or a succession of them (though these dreams are very hard to remember and most people never do). As you've probably seen by now, WILD techniques work best if done after several hours of sleep, when it's possible to fall directly into REM.

Some people do report that they're able to go directly into REM without needing hours of sleep first but this is very rare and usually associated with some kind of condition like narcolepsy or if the person hasn't been getting enough sleep lately (deprivation) - this causes REM rebound - if the brain has been deprived of REM sleep (which it needs) than it can drop immediately into REM when you fall asleep. For this reason some people will stay awake for 24 hours or more or take melatonin or some similar sleep aid to block REM for a number of hours so when they fal asleep they're REM deprived and will go immediately into REM. I'm not recommending this - it's very hard on the system!

Dream incubation like you do doesn't seem to get talked about a lot on the forum recently (the topics of conversation here go through phases - it has been popular and will be again), but it is a well-known technique - google for it and you'll find a lot of info. Oh - how could I almost forget? Anyone who's interested inlucid dreaming should definitely read the book that brought it to scientific awareness and made it from a ridiculed myth into common knowledge and to this day the best researched and written book on the subject - Steven LaBerge's Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming. On the subject of lucidity, it is the One Book to Rule Them All.

**Valiant** · 01-29-2013 05:33 AM

It sounds like you have a very powerful imagination that works in visual images, and that's pretty ideal for forming scenarios (daydreams) before you fall asleep that then turn into lucid dreams. This is called dream incubation (essentially giving birth to a dream by planting a suggestion in your mind of what you want to dream about). Yes, it is a WILD technique since you go directly into the dreaming state without losing consciousness along the way. Though I suppose it could also work as a DILD (or MILD?) technique if you fall asleep and later begin to dream of the subject you were daydreaming of. But the way describe it is a WILD.

;D thank you, so it's WILD and the technique is called "dream incubation".
Well that makes sense

Yes, true I've experienced it working as DILD and MILD as in:

1- Daydream (->dream incubation)
2- Main dream
(DILD usually presents itself as a new scene corresponding to dream incubation)
(MILD usually presents itself as an after thought or linger regarding dream incubation)
3- Full Lucid dream

A question, since I don't see the information in your post - are you able to do this when you first go to bed at night, or does it happen later after getting several hours of sleep and then waking up briefly (wake back to bed or DEILD as you mentioned)? The reason I ask is - most people don't go directly into REM sleep (the rapid eye movement sleep that produces vivid movielike dreams such as the ones you're talking about) when they first go to sleep - it normally takes about 90 minutes to get through the deeper levels of sleep inwhich it's now known we do dream, but not usually with moving images and storylines, usually just streams of thoughts or words or possibly a still image or pattern or a succession of them (though these dreams are very hard to remember and most people never do). As you've probably seen by now, WILD techniques work best if done after several hours of sleep, when it's possible to fall directly into REM.

This is a very good question, and without your explanation I wouldn't have understood it.
I don't have a simple answer, because of multiple experiences, regarding this, but I'll do my best to answer/explain.
Yes I can agree with your info because I did have experienced it at some nights.
But it's not usually the case, especially the part about not having moving images/movie like vivid/storylines, realizing this actually gave me some shivers / goose bumps.

Please take note that the description in my previous post, is the way it usually goes, not always. And it does comprises of experiences of more than a single night.
Of course every day & night is still different.
That been said,
The 90min you've mentioned (REM-Point), I think it's safe to say that was the same point of the dream turning from daylight to moonlight which I mentioned in my orig.post.
Only I saw it in a time lapse form within my dream, but is similar to "moving pictures" as the dream became almost inactive.
To me it was an intermission between 2 dreams, indeed I didn't remember the preceding dream nor the one after, for long, but still the time lapse image and feeling of "going in" remains. So the experience of this night in particular does reflect as what you've mentioned.

And to come back to your question, of having LD's before reaching REM-point (90min)?
Yes I've experienced this at first go to sleep, not having hours of sleep, also without waking up briefly.
However DEILD also happens just as frequently so I can't honestly say which occurs more often of those two, regardless of REM-point.

And I do remember of one night, It's an pretty special or to an extreme occurrence, having the nr.1-dream incubation, nr.2-maindream, nr.3-full lucid dream, in 20-30min after gone to bed, without me being in a state of sleep deprivation.
What made it so memorable was the fact that the in-dream duration was pretty long (felt like at least an hour could've been several), yet only 20-30mins in real-time had passed, and the storyline of nr.2 had a pretty unexpected plot/turn (to say it was shocking, would be a bit of an exaggeration though) and after some in-dream actions I then became more action/controllable lucid, finished the dream, and woke up. Was pretty intense therefore memorable I think, however the details of the dream, lasted only as long for a day, it eventually ended in a doomsday/end of the world survival kind of dream.

The thing that makes my skin crawl, is the fact that I usually have considerable storyline/plot/scenario and dream characters interactions prior to reaching REM-point(90mins) dozing-off into deep sleep, after gone to bed.
which considering your info is then very strange, to have such things happening in the dream incubation stage or the first LD of the night (instead of after hours of sleep)

And more interestingly, now that I think about it,
unlike a normal daytime daydream which is very hypothetical (what if's) and more questioning in nature,
the night-time dream incubation forming stage has lots of variable content that I don't control or know outcome of, seems like most things in the dream are independent of my input, to the point of surprise or shock and even to laughter (like a joke), still I can open my eyes anytime I want, cause I'm not fully asleep (just lying down passive, with closed eyes).
Still if it does continue into LD, the experience (storyline/plot) only intensifies or develops more in complexity while I'm (body is) asleep.
It's a little hard to explain and it's kind of freaking me out, realizing this is not normal to have, before-REM sleep.
I don't think you meant something like this right? as an scenario being ideally formed by my visual imagination, as I have no control of it other than my own ID character.
I'll have to get back to this in a new post...as I also have to find the right words to describe this experience more thoroughly.

Some people do report that they're able to go directly into REM without needing hours of sleep first but this is very rare and usually associated with some kind of condition like narcolepsy or if the person hasn't been getting enough sleep lately (deprivation) - this causes REM rebound - if the brain has been deprived of REM sleep (which it needs) than it can drop immediately into REM when you fall asleep. For this reason some people will stay awake for 24 hours or more or take melatonin or some similar sleep aid to block REM for a number of hours so when they fal asleep they're REM deprived and will go immediately into REM. I'm not recommending this - it's very hard on the system!

First of all I don't do drugs/pills etc., I always tend to think they'd screw me up more than that I already am

so let's be clear off that.
however I do work or stay awake for long hours, in some situations like brainstorming sessions or project deadline, especially happening frequently last year 2012, multitasking on a day resulting 20-36hours max awake, but then when I finally sleep I mostly don't have dreams, cause I'm so tired I guess, the only thing I drank is cola/caffeine so It's still kind of a drug right? ;D
I did have periods of a year to several months of not drinking caffeinated soda's, but I don't really feel 100% awake as the caffeine gives a boost in awareness which exceeds normal wakefulness, and that's what you're used to. however it's quite useful when going out to party's and late night working, and the withdrawal symptoms are pretty hard to deal with at 48-72hrs after last use (I've gone through it 3 times already), it's so much easier to take sip ;P and feel better (yes my only addiction, besides dreaming that is).

Dream incubation like you do doesn't seem to get talked about a lot on the forum recently (the topics of conversation here go through phases - it has been popular and will be again), but it is a well-known technique - google for it and you'll find a lot of info.

That's a relief, will google thanks a lot ;D
And will post here, regarding the process and experience I encounter in my dream-incubation stage as mentioned before,
but I've to say some LD's gives me knowledge/experience of something not experienced in my real-life.
like learning something new, or tasting something I've never ate, as I've mentioned in another thread.
1+1=3 kind of concept, but then in dream, somehow created/controlled/expanded unknowingly or by subconscious.
I'm off to bed now, "this is to be continued" I think

cheers, Valiant

**Darkmatters** · 01-29-2013 06:32 AM

Well, don't feel like some kind of freak or anything!

I only say it's unusual because what I read in books says that the majority of people do need 90 minutes of deep sleep before going into REM, but I have seen people in here report they go immediately into REM. I suspect it's more common than sleep science has acknowledged yet. A couple of times I've experienced it myself, though I think it was from sleep deprivation.

Interestingly, last night when I went to bed I did some visualizations (daydreaming just like you said) and before I was asleep they quickly became very vivid and egan to 'take on a life of their own" like dreams, I seemed to not need to actively control everything, but was still able to control my own actions and the general course of things. It was very much like what you describe - I was still awake and could open my eyes (did it a few times and did RCs just to make sure - it was freaking me out a little).

I was in a very strange state last night though - I had done too much exercise with my arms and they were very sore, and then walking my dog the long way around the block, up and down long steep hills, I re-injured my back (I have lifelong back problems - soft tissue damage and bending or twisting my spine too many times re-injures it). Plus I had a headache and have spent a lot of time over the last few days reading about dreams, writing about them, and thinking about them pretty much all day long for a couple of days now. Plus I was preparing for a lucidity attempt using some supplements - including Yohimbine, which I've never tried before and was excited about, so all that combined to put me into a very unusual state and as soon as I laid down I felt like I was almost dreaming already (I didn't take any of the supplements until after 4 hrs of sleep).

So now I've experienced exactly what you're talking about. It's damn awesome, I must say! Wish I could do that more often!! No lucidity unfortunatley last night, but those visualizations were pretty amazing. I'll try to research into this a bit and if I discover anything I'll post it here. Hopefully somebody who knows more about 'lucid daydreaming' or falling into REM immediately will post here.

Oh - another question. Have you had periods in your life when you did experience sleep deprivation consistently for some time? I think that can cause a person to have sleep deprivation type symptoms every night, even if they're not currently sleep deprived. It's also possible too much caffiene can do that.