Thread: Is lucid dreaming satanic?

Originally Posted by Nailler

Depends on the atheist, Steph. Just as there are Christian zealots, there are atheist zealots that claim otherwise.

Proving or disproving the existence or non-existence of god(s) is equally difficult.

What defines a zealot for you? I have a hard time imagining an agnostic zealot - whatever it means to you.

In principle - proving a negative is not possible - how could I disprove, that there is a microscopic unicorn in your garden? I can't.
You, though, having a unicorn in your garden, you could carry it with you to the biology department of the closest university and revolutionize the field. Feed it something nice, while you are at it.
And nobody came even close to bring evidence for divine beings - if you disregard a book of many books thousands of years old, in our case.
What is more probable - there is no god, if you don't find any evidence - or there is a god, because it says so in the book?

Originally Posted by Nailler

Unless we manage to escape the MATRIX, which is the construct in the back of our brains, and directly experience things as a soul/awareness/spirit...

I could imagine - said it before - that we are a simulation on some advanced being's computational arrangements.
Like you say above - we would be living in the MATRIX, but it would not be a construction of our brains, but of those arrangements.
Do you think, every single brain could put up the whole collectively experienced reality of all of us - including astrophysicists and everybody? And that without evidence for any sort of mechanism of non-physical information-transfer ever provided.
Nope - if we are created, then most probably by aliens, if the reality one complexity step outwards from us is anything like our simulated one.

But why on earth would something like this be probably the case?
The universal constant? Well ..

There is simply nothing to make me believe in a soul.
And why do you believe such a simulated being in a MATRIX, or a normal human being could exist in it's essence without a brain - or another physical matrix? How come this seems likely to you?
Just because it feels as if there was something to mind, which is qualitatively different to matter - maybe agency?

Originally Posted by Nailler

which leads into my theory that the purpose of the whole thing might be to create the illusion that we're not alone.

Who or what would set a purpose to anything?
So you do believe in gods - which ones?
We ourselves are the ones to give our lives meaning in my eyes.
Subjectively - there is a lot of meaning in life - especially when it is about collective purposes and mutual validation.
Wonderful - I like living.
I do not require the illusion, that somebody gave a purpose for my life - I do that just fine.
It's wishful thinking - that's how I see it - fear of ultimate "soul-death".

I log on to this site for the first time in over two months after a lack of motivation, and I see THIS? Oh well, 1. Don't let thoughts like this restrict you in doing what you enjoy, 2. It's not Satanic unless you are actually worshipping Satan, in fact most "Satanists" are not "satanic" as Christians believe them to be, and 3. Is it really anyone else's business what you do in your head when you're asleep?

I don't mean to come across as rude or anything, apologies if I seem that way

Originally Posted by StephL

I have a hard time imagining an agnostic zealot - whatever it means to you.

zeal·ot 8ˈzelət/
noun
1. a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals.
Synonyms
2. extremist, crank, bigot. See fanatic.

I have encountered two such individuals who were atheists and considered they could prove that the concept of a god is a logical fallacy.

That is more probable - there is no god, if you don't find any evidence - or there is a god, because it says so in the book?

I'm not arguing for the existence of a god as defined by the Bible, and I agree the existence of such a being as envisioned by Christians is, to say the least, highly unlikely. But just as I can't prove there is a god of some sort, neither can you prove there is no god.

Like you say above - we would be living in the MATRIX, but it would not be a construction of our brains, but of those arrangements.

The "matrix" we live in IS a construct of our brains. That is a scientific fact, regardless of the nature of the "I" or "awareness unit", be it biological, spiritual, or some combination thereof. I personally believe only a spirit or soul is capable of being aware of anything. Most of the human population agrees with me on that score.

In other words, the universe we perceive as humans and call "reality" exists entirely and only in the construct in the back of our brains. Everything we experience is an illusion that takes place in the illusion of space generated by that construct. That's true whether we're asleep or awake. The only difference is that while awake, the content of the construct is mostly influenced by electrical impulses generated by the various sense organs and relayed to our brains via our nervous systems.

I do not require the illusion, that somebody gave a purpose for my life - I do that just fine.

Yes! That's the beauty of it all. Beyond simple surviving, there is no purpose to the game other than the purpose we give it. But that's the wonder of it all... we can make our game about anything we want... once we understand its true nature.

So who or what gave us such a wonderful playing field or set up its rules?

Damned if I know.

Nailer
Over at my SUNDS thread which is connected, in a way to this one, "Satan," or a certain form of energy -- there are many ways to see or imagine this -- is being used to kill people in dreams. Mostly Oriental people who do not perform religious rituals properly.

There are some "playing fields" that are less than wonderful. There are some, many situations where forces wishing to dominate dreaming have set up those rules and require others to obey them.

And there are some using the image or power of "Satan" to frighten others into their fold.

No, the Matrix is not a construct of our brains but a construct of the Matrix. Neo and his crew who live outside that construct live in the "desert of the real" and eat gruel and feel one hell of a lot of pain. Where's that in this discussion?

So who gave us such a wonderful playing field where "inceptions," dream rapes to get us to divest ourselves of our inheritances are possible? Where the Matrix and the whole series of films it involves are not about dreaming but about computers? May I suggest you follow the money? May I suggest you look at the staggering poverty stricken nature of the average human being divested of true creation, his or her psyche, soul of power, Promethean being and nearly everything else?

Take a look at the dreams of your compatriots here in the General Dreaming section where dreamers are tearing out their eyes, going through various hells, wondering if fate is going to kill their boyfriend or not and maybe, yes, you will try to do something about who has arranged the game.

Hummer

Originally Posted by Hummer

There are some, many situations where forces wishing to dominate dreaming have set up those rules and require others to obey them.

I couldn't disagree more.

It's all you babes!

Hummer - you lost touch with reality.
Mostly Oriental people, who don't do their religious service properly get killed by Satan in their dreams? My bad.

Oh - and I still can't imagine an agnostic zealot - but I can imagine an atheistic zealot - I'm both the a-words and still aware I can't prove a negative.
Shame about these people you know, Nailler - doesn't do the cause any good.
And a cause I do have - I really don't like Christianity, and find it worthwhile to try and open people's eyes about it.

Nailer--
You cite The Matrix, as do most of you LD dreaming types without paying an iota of attention to the content of the film. So, Neo, says to all those dominated, ensconsced, enslaved in body pods feeding the Matrix energy system, "It's all up to you babes!"

If nothing else maybe I can get you to quite abusing the reference to that film which you know utterly nothing about.

Hummer

StephL

Mostly Oriental people, who don't do their religious service properly get killed by Satan in their dreams? My bad

What do I do with this sentence, these sentences? "My bad?" What exactly do you mean? Do you know? I doubt it.

Yes, people, even...Orientals are being killed in their dreams. Cripes there may be hundreds, thousands of white, middle class Americans killed in their dreams by the same syndrome only we have no SUNDS tradition -- instead we call it...sudden death in sleep, a heart attack, a stroke, "oh, he or she simply stopped breathing." We have no idea what horrific presence was there to steal the soul, heart, psyche.

No dreams, no investigation, no nothing. No challenge from folks like you dreaming your lucid steak dreams. No curiosity about what the heck it might actually mean that "God" flooded the entire planet to eliminate a whole kind of person, dreamer in favor of another kind of person, dreamer who does not dare to explore down into the basement where the "red pill" takes you.

Tell me a red pill dream and what you are doing about it and maybe I will have some respect for you.

Hummer

Originally Posted by Hummer

Nailer--
You cite The Matrix, as do most of you LD dreaming types without paying an iota of attention to the content of the film.

My reference to THE MATRIX is by way of analogy. It's entirely appropriate.

By the way, some find the word "Oriental" offensive when applied to people. I think mostly it's just outdated like the word "negro." If you care about such things, the word "Asian" is preferred.

Originally Posted by Hummer

Yes, people, even...Orientals are being killed in their dreams. Cripes there may be hundreds, thousands of white, middle class Americans killed in their dreams by the same syndrome

What led you to believe people are dying in real life because they were killed in their dreams?

Originally Posted by vivianhawthorne

My mother and brother, both overbearing, religious, and nosey, both claim that by practicing lucid dreaming, I am opening myself to possession. I don't see how knowing you're asleep is any more sinful than knowing you're awake, but wanted to hear your opinions. (Don't worry I'm not about to boycott lucid dreaming. I just wanted to know...Attachment 6843

I've been a Christian in the past, and still believe in demons, but from my understanding and experience the answer is, no a negative entity or demon or whatever you want to call it can't do that type of thing with just lucid dreamers.

Peace.

Originally Posted by Hummer

Nailer--
You cite The Matrix, as do most of you LD dreaming types without paying an iota of attention to the content of the film. So, Neo, says to all those dominated, ensconsced, enslaved in body pods feeding the Matrix energy system, "It's all up to you babes!"

If nothing else maybe I can get you to quite abusing the reference to that film which you know utterly nothing about.

Hummer

You come along and behave as if we lucid dreaming types would all refuse to save humankind from the evil aliens holding us in pods and feeding us the Matrix.
We wouldn't eat gruel and finally do something??
Hummer - these things are fiction!! As much as they fascinate you, Inception as well - they are not reality.

Originally Posted by Hummer

StephL

"Mostly Oriental people, who don't do their religious service properly get killed by Satan in their dreams? My bad"

What do I do with this sentence, these sentences? "My bad?" What exactly do you mean? Do you know? I doubt it.

Yes, people, even...Orientals are being killed in their dreams. Cripes there may be hundreds, thousands of white, middle class Americans killed in their dreams by the same syndrome only we have no SUNDS tradition -- instead we call it...sudden death in sleep, a heart attack, a stroke, "oh, he or she simply stopped breathing." We have no idea what horrific presence was there to steal the soul, heart, psyche.

No dreams, no investigation, no nothing. No challenge from folks like you dreaming your lucid steak dreams. No curiosity about what the heck it might actually mean that "God" flooded the entire planet to eliminate a whole kind of person, dreamer in favor of another kind of person, dreamer who does not dare to explore down into the basement where the "red pill" takes you.

Tell me a red pill dream and what you are doing about it and maybe I will have some respect for you.

Hummer

"My bad" is an expression, I stole from a Welsh mate of mine - he tends to utter it in situations, when he can hardly believe, what he is hearing, and in a bad way. Thought, it was English - but then - maybe it's just him.

Why do you think is it, that people usually don't die in their sleep, when they are not yet old people, and not really young babies any more?
Does the devil prefer grannies and babies??
Oh - I forgot - riight - the middle-aged do their rituals properly, is it?

You really seem to believe we were some secretly powerful group, meeting up in our dreams and doing whatnot.
We are not - every single one of us dreams lucid in and only in her head - there is no Matrix like in the movie - don't misunderstand philosophical debates as something actually tangible out there.

And now we should also start investigate, why a fairy-tale god supposedly committed genocide on his first batch?
Come on!!
He didn't - the flood is a stolen older myth and it didn't take place.
A local flood somewhere will have inspired people - and for them the world might have ended behind the farthest visible mountain.
There could not possibly have been a world-wide flood - it is completely illogical and contradicts everything we have in terms of science - even common sense alone should suffice - no geologists needed.
There's a thread on Noah in the religion subforum - fits better there to expound on that further, if somebody feels a need.

You come across like an almost militant wanna-believe-everything-at-once and accuse us people of not using "our powers".
Once more - we don't have any powers - we just dream lucidly - and that is truly extraordinary and wonderful and great - all that without your free-roaming superstitions.

You wonder why there are no red-pill dreams, about which you would so love to read to satisfy your thirst for sensationalism?
Well guess why that would be! rolleyes.gif

I feel like I could get dragged into a debate on this but let's face it the answer to OPs question is really easy, it's

NO!

Originally Posted by LucidMoon

I feel like I could get dragged into a debate on this but let's face it the answer to OPs question is really easy, it's

NO!

This. All the off-topic stuff is hurting my head, think I'll keep it simple and stick to rocket science

Originally Posted by LucidMoon

I feel like I could get dragged into a debate on this but let's face it the answer to OPs question is really easy, it's

NO!

Easy for anybody, who doesn't believe in Satan anyway!
Around 60% of Americans do believe in an actual personal devil, though - and from that perspective it is a vitally important question. Not to forget the worldwide 2 billion Catholics.



It's pretty vitally important to drop that perspective, I would say!

It's only as satanic as waking life, or any stray imagination or is this implying people cant fantasize without invoking satan.

(cheeky) While Christians, atheists, and others may have an opinion, wouldn't satanists be the only credible source? If a satanist says it's satanical, then it's satanical. Just that cold, Jim. How you interpret the consequence of it being satanical is another matter.

Wow. This discussion is amazing..

Originally Posted by Hummer

Nailer
Over at my SUNDS thread which is connected, in a way to this one, "Satan," or a certain form of energy -- there are many ways to see or imagine this -- is being used to kill people in dreams. Mostly Oriental people who do not perform religious rituals properly.

There are some "playing fields" that are less than wonderful. There are some, many situations where forces wishing to dominate dreaming have set up those rules and require others to obey them.

And there are some using the image or power of "Satan" to frighten others into their fold.

No, the Matrix is not a construct of our brains but a construct of the Matrix. Neo and his crew who live outside that construct live in the "desert of the real" and eat gruel and feel one hell of a lot of pain. Where's that in this discussion?

So who gave us such a wonderful playing field where "inceptions," dream rapes to get us to divest ourselves of our inheritances are possible? Where the Matrix and the whole series of films it involves are not about dreaming but about computers? May I suggest you follow the money? May I suggest you look at the staggering poverty stricken nature of the average human being divested of true creation, his or her psyche, soul of power, Promethean being and nearly everything else?

Take a look at the dreams of your compatriots here in the General Dreaming section where dreamers are tearing out their eyes, going through various hells, wondering if fate is going to kill their boyfriend or not and maybe, yes, you will try to do something about who has arranged the game.

Hummer

In response to Hummer's post - (forgive me if I'm not following you correctly. I am going on a tangent here, but maybe this will make some sense)

I can see why you would be discontent with the present reality. With all the horror that goes on in our world for the average man, I empathize with that. Someone told me Mother Teresa even doubted her faith at times, because of what she had seen.

But also consider it from this angle. Perhaps the 'powers that be' are doing so with purpose. It's not about our reaching our soul potential, constructing our own futures to be perfect, etc. It's about teaching us to love each other, unconditionally. To give us each the free will to learn this, and should we ever do so in unity, this reality could be close to heaven. As more and more people awaken, it will catch on like fire - acts of love spur others to do acts of love. Rather than focusing on separating ourselves from the 'oneness'/ "God", or trying to change the world, fight the man, etc., perhaps we just need to change ourselves. Our entire outlook. Our motives for living. It's the one thing we are certain we can change. And in doing so, we encourage others to follow in our footsteps.

Queue song: We don't change the world. We can change the facts. When we change the facts, we change points of view. We change points of view, we can change a vote. When we change a vote, we may change the world - Depeche Mode.


I don't know. I don't lucid dream (yet). But I kind of like letting dreams come to me, giving up the control. If it's true about dreams shaping reality, I would want to spend my time meditating on love and happiness before bed, rather than trying to take direct control anyways.. therefore not putting myself in the position to fall into sin (which I'm guaranteed to do), and also not setting myself up for disappointed hopes. Accepting the good that comes as it is, with thankfulness, rather than striving for more.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I would argue that the baseline "love" in all those experiences is identical. What is different is the amplification you make to the already rich feeling that the baseline emotion provides. When falling in love, you might be intellectually multiplying the cool effect (perhaps driven unconsciously by other procreational drivers, especially in cases of 'love at first sight') of the no doubt powerful injection of baseline love into your system. Since you are sentient, that effect can reach a point where that effect engulfs your imagination, and you construct a state of being "in love." In a sense, you created your deep love, designed by your imagination and fueled by your nature.

I would argue that feeling of being 'in love' isn't love at all. It's limerence. It's essentially anxiety, excitement, and what I call "narcissistic boosts" - fear at it's core. It is felt at the ego level. Love is peaceful, and it is an emotion, not just a choice. When you feel it, you feel it for everything and everyone. It's like a perfume that radiates. It is not for one singular thing, but everything around you. It is a state of being that comes from being connected to the higher Self/oneness/All That Is/God. And it starts from loving your true self, what you do with your life, accepting your flaws, etc. I do think it is easier to feel the emotion 'love' with others who also radiate it: children, animals, people without big egos.

Nailer--
"Matrix" by way of analogy. What does that mean in the context of this thread about Satan in lucid dreaming? You need to clarify what analogy and how it relates to the film of that name.

Yes, maybe Asian is a better term but then no it isn't. Asian covers a much larger territory than "Oriental" and the references I have used, articles I read used that term without apology to mean people in, generally SE Asia, so your point is interesting but aside from the point.

I use it, too, without apology.

Hummer

Nailer--
Well, they are! Those damned Oriental Asian people, Hmong types!

I have had and I am sure thousands of others have had SUNDS like episodes that might well have resulted in death if I was in weaker physical condition. What I suggest is that SUNDS-like events may be behind many sudden or unexpected deaths in Western cultures, or may accompany them. However, because we pay such scant attention to dreaming they are not recored or seen as SUNDS events.

Hummer

StephL
Thanks for the reply, clarification of "my bad," I thought it was a typo!

I do see the Matrix bandied about a whole lot here and yet I see scant attention paid to the actual script or plot of the film and almost none to the fact the Neo's "out of Matrix" life is really tough, not wonderful "lucid dreaming."

No, I do not believe you are a secret, powerful group, rather one capable of forgetting the "true," of reality in favor of something called "lucid dreaming."

I do believe there was a "flood," which created the unconscious as a place where "God," do you see that is in quotes? could create black sites in order to do just about what ever "He" wanted to do. Including the use of dreamers as slaves as per Joseph in the book of Genesis. "Energy pods."

Lucid dreaming that cuts away that past is, for me, an escape up from snuffed.

In my opinion it doesn't work.

Hummer

Sisyphus--
Not that this is relevant to all these NOs! here but there are a whole lot of ways in which Satan, Lucifer, can be seen as the hero or "whistle blower" on a system in which the CEO of the Heavenly Company has a secret covenant with the Dark Side.

I am much more of that opinion, which, in the probably limited range of this discussion, is not particularly relevant. But, it, this topic, brings up a whole lot of energy.

Hummer

Originally Posted by Hummer

What I suggest is that SUNDS-like events may be behind many sudden or unexpected deaths in Western cultures, or may accompany them. However, because we pay such scant attention to dreaming they are not recored or seen as SUNDS events.

If the person died, how could we possibly determine with any certainty that the cause was a SUNDS event?