Why DC's deny that they're from my imagination?

[DreamHighlander]

I read all kinds of opinions about Dream Characters. Some people say that they could be other dreamers, some say that it's astral spirits and others say that it's all a product of our minds. Because i guess i never experienced dream sharing and i haven't got proof of me talking to spirits, my opinion is that it's all in our minds. And in my lucid dreams, i tend to say this to DC's. The funny thing is that when i say that this is all a dream and they are a product of my mind, they get all sad. Some people who did this too, say that they get angry or say they are real people who are dreaming too. So, if this is all constructed by our minds, our subconscious, how come DC's get sad when i say that this is a dream and that they are from my imagination?

[Screen]

I never believe when characters say they're real that they actually are. Here's a few points as to why. 1) They never explain what they're doing in your dream 2) They don't give names (real or not) or even if they do, they never attempt to prove they're real by demonstrating something 3) Do they ever tell you where they're from? 4) Are they even aware of what a lucid dream is when they claim they're not imaginary? 5) Do they know who you are and the fact that you're in a place where you can't be awake with your physical body? The reasons why they claim not to be imaginary could be expansive. Determining a specific one is where it becomes difficult. It could be a fellow lucid dreamer invading your space, poor skills on the lucid dreamer's part, or the character doing its job in believing it's real. Will you get answer simply by asking them? I doubt an accurate one. We still barely understand what a dream is, let alone its "inhabitants." Who can say it's entirely from our minds? I've read accounts about how lucid dreaming can easily be used to enter the realm of astral projection. Although, the only "proof" of this is through people's experiences. Long story short, I can't tell you why they behave this way. Maybe you can find a character who actually knows they're in a dream and tell you a few things about it.

[DreamHighlander]

1) They never explain what they're doing in your dream 2) They don't give names (real or not) or even if they do, they never attempt to prove they're real by demonstrating something 3) Do they ever tell you where they're from? 4) Are they even aware of what a lucid dream is when they claim they're not imaginary? 5) Do they know who you are and the fact that you're in a place where you can't be awake with your physical body? In several of my experiences of talking to DC's, i've come up with some answers from them. 1)The few DC's i asked this, they never answered me this. At least in a coherent manner. 2)I've asked their names and they gave me. Don't know if they're real or not, but some of them i wrote in my dream journal. 3)I have some locations that they have given me. Some are locations that i cannot find. I guess they're not real. 4)This i don't know. But, as i said, they get sad. Some of them become happy and excited though. 5)This i don't know. Long story short, I can't tell you why they behave this way. Maybe you can find a character who actually knows they're in a dream and tell you a few things about it. This already happened to me. When i said to a DC that we were in dream, she got sad and said: "I know." Then she gave me tips to stabilize the dream.

[Screen]

I can share with you one story that baffles me to this day. Forgive me that I don't remember the book. This man suddenly gained lucidity, and became aware he was in this hotel room, sitting on a bed with this woman, and she was smoking. I don't remember the specific dialogue. But he was basically saying that none of what was happening--including the woman--were real. She claimed otherwise, but he didn't believe her. Now, this last line I do remember. "I'll show you who's real!" She said this quite angrily, and jabbed the cigarette into the man's wrist. When he awoke, he found a burn mark in that exact same spot. The injury can be a strange case of mind over matter. Nonetheless, it's a very intriguing example of a character who swore she was real. I've only had one case of your example. It was a shadowy figure but had a male voice. We had about two sentences of dialogue, the first I don't remember. The second was, "ME: Why am I dreaming this?" "DC: How should I know? You're the one who's dreaming." Although, I wasn't "lucid." Despite my actions, my mind wasn't completely aware of what was happening. For some reason, some characters have an awareness of their surroundings, while others do not. When I become lucid again, I hope to possibly learn these reasons.

[ThreeCat]

I can share with you one story that baffles me to this day. Forgive me that I don't remember the book. This man suddenly gained lucidity, and became aware he was in this hotel room, sitting on a bed with this woman, and she was smoking. I don't remember the specific dialogue. But he was basically saying that none of what was happening--including the woman--were real. She claimed otherwise, but he didn't believe her. Now, this last line I do remember. "I'll show you who's real!" She said this quite angrily, and jabbed the cigarette into the man's wrist. When he awoke, he found a burn mark in that exact same spot. The injury can be a strange case of mind over matter. Nonetheless, it's a very intriguing example of a character who swore she was real. I've only had one case of your example. It was a shadowy figure but had a male voice. We had about two sentences of dialogue, the first I don't remember. The second was, "ME: Why am I dreaming this?" "DC: How should I know? You're the one who's dreaming." Although, I wasn't "lucid." Despite my actions, my mind wasn't completely aware of what was happening. For some reason, some characters have an awareness of their surroundings, while others do not. When I become lucid again, I hope to possibly learn these reasons. Ah, I believe this is from Charlie Morley's "Mindfulness of Dream and Sleep." I could be wrong, but I know I have read the same book recently. It touches on the tulpa-topic - reading about these is what made me first consider to ascribe something like sentience to constructs, which run on my "hardware". I believe, that dream-sharing is completely impossible - but as usual in such cases - one can't prove a negative of that sort scientifically. It's just that there is no objective evidence for the phenomenon at all, and it would violate diverse principles of nature, that we do understand very well, meanwhile. A lot speaks against it, and in my eyes there is a total lack of any positive evidence, worth considering - meaning produced under controlled conditions and - very important - repeatable by independent scientists all over the world. I would actually disagree with you, StephL; I don't think we understand very much about nature at all, and perhaps even less about our own minds. Empirical science has been proven flawed--in particular regards to its reliance on logic and perception--mental constructs both--in order to "explain" perceived mental phenomenon. To me that is the needle trying to sew its own eye shut. I realize I do not speak for everyone. However, there has been so much anecdotal evidence concerning phenomena like telepathy and precognition that it seems hasty to suggest that sharing dreams is impossible. We barely know what is possible. At the beginning of the century we thought atoms were stable. Now we know they really are not. It is technically "possible" for you to put your hand through a brick wall, as the atoms within it are vibrating, and not truly stable. Is it going to happen? Probably not, but it's not an impossibility. Or so I have read. But you are right that we lack the controlled, empirical evidence. On the other hand, it wasn't until the 70's or so that lucid dreaming became a "fact." Who knows what will happen in thirty years?

[StephL]

I would actually disagree with you, StephL; I don't think we understand very much about nature at all, and perhaps even less about our own minds. Empirical science has been proven flawed--in particular regards to its reliance on logic and perception--mental constructs both--in order to "explain" perceived mental phenomenon. To me that is the needle trying to sew its own eye shut. And I would actually disagree with you on this in turn! We do know quite a lot. But it would lead this thread off topic, if I would try to give an overview on the state of affairs in modern science and especially neuroscience here. What is correct, though, is that we don't know overly much about consciousness and it's origins. But it's not so, that we don't know anything at all - there is some really fascinating science being done these days! And LDing is quite the hype among neuroscientists/psychiatrists/... at the moment - especially in Germany for some reason. Because it's something to study 'meta-consciousness' with, and separately from "all the rest". I recommend to check out this sub-forum: Lucid Dreaming News And I made a thread a while back: http://www.dreamviews.com/science-ma...%B4t-know.html As far as I remember - the latter still lacks a proper discussion about the neuroscientific parts of our ignorance, it was mainly about physics and cosmology, but with "traces of the good stuff". It might be a better place for this topic! I realize I do not speak for everyone. However, there has been so much anecdotal evidence concerning phenomena like telepathy and precognition that it seems hasty to suggest that sharing dreams is impossible. We barely know what is possible. At the beginning of the century we thought atoms were stable. Now we know they really are not. It is technically "possible" for you to put your hand through a brick wall, as the atoms within it are vibrating, and not truly stable. Is it going to happen? Probably not, but it's not an impossibility. Or so I have read. But you are right that we lack the controlled, empirical evidence. On the other hand, it wasn't until the 70's or so that lucid dreaming became a "fact." Who knows what will happen in thirty years? Who knows indeed! And as I keep acknowledging - one cannot prove a negative scientifically - meaning one cannot claim that certain things are impossible. Like the famous flying spaghetti monster (FSM), or a tea-kettle orbiting the sun somewhere, or an invisible tiny unicorn in one's garden. If it would bear actual real life consequences if these existed - I'm sure, there would be people claiming to have personal experience with them. Actually there are - the FSM originally coined by Richard Dawkins as a metaphor has gained a following among atheists/agnostics/skeptics: Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster With sightings!

[Voldmer]

I can share with you one story that baffles me to this day. Forgive me that I don't remember the book. This man suddenly gained lucidity, and became aware he was in this hotel room, sitting on a bed with this woman, and she was smoking. I don't remember the specific dialogue. But he was basically saying that none of what was happening--including the woman--were real. She claimed otherwise, but he didn't believe her. Now, this last line I do remember. "I'll show you who's real!" She said this quite angrily, and jabbed the cigarette into the man's wrist. When he awoke, he found a burn mark in that exact same spot. [snip] Ah, I believe this is from Charlie Morley's "Mindfulness of Dream and Sleep." I could be wrong, but I know I have read the same book recently. Actually, unless my mind fails me, it's from Castanedas "The art of dreaming". Edit: my mind failed me. There is a scene in Castanedas book, where a man and a woman are sitting on a hotel bed, talking about whether they're in a dream or in physical reality. But there is no cigarette. There is however the same scene with a cigarette in Waggoners book on lucid dreaming. It's presented as an anecdote, but the similarity to the scene in Castanedas book is rather striking.

[StephL]

There is a scene in Castanedas book, where a man and a woman are sitting on a hotel bed, talking about whether they're in a dream or in physical reality. But there is no cigarette. There is however the same scene with a cigarette in Waggoners book on lucid dreaming. It's presented as an anecdote, but the similarity to the scene in Castanedas book is rather striking. Rather striking. I like that! wink.gif

[AnotherDreamer]

I once asked a DC how it feels to be an imagined dream person and he said to me, "I don't know, why don't you tell me how it feels". That makes me think that the DC's are often a reflection of our own thoughts/beliefs and if you think that they would feel sad and want to be real then they will act that way.

[DreamHighlander]

That makes me think that the DC's are often a reflection of our own thoughts/beliefs and if you think that they would feel sad and want to be real then they will act that way. That's the funny thing. I don't want them to be sad. I want them to be happy. In my dreams i've noticed that there are 3 types of DC's when i say to them that this is all a dream: 1- The one's that don't give a damn, say nothing and just want to be on their way 2- The one's that are surprised to know that it's a dream and they do whatever i say with a great smile 3- The one's that already know that it's all a dream but become sad that i pointed this out. But they recognize it and help me on whatever i ask

[Screen]

Well, they're your characters. Do you have any idea why they would be sad?

[DreamHighlander]

Well, they're your characters. Do you have any idea why they would be sad? No. That's the question i posted on my first post. But i guess i'll try to ask it on my dreams to see what happens. A couple of times, i was having a great time with female DC's but when i became lucid and said that this is all a dream, i guess they became sad because they knew that i will be on my way and this will all be over soon.

[Screen]

That's an interesting thing I just thought of. If you asked a character, "What happens to you when I wake up," I'd be curious to know their answer. I say this because, put yourself in their shoes. If you know this a dream, do you "die" in the sense of the word? Does everything go black until the next dream? Or do you feel the world is meaningless because it's imaginary? By answering that question, it may help rule out some possibilities.

[DreamHighlander]

You've got a point there. Maybe i'd be sad too. But if this is all from my imagination, why would they be sad? Unless, of course, this is a representation of what i would feel if it were me.

[StephL]

That's an interesting thing I just thought of. If you asked a character, "What happens to you when I wake up," I'd be curious to know their answer. I say this because, put yourself in their shoes. If you know this a dream, do you "die" in the sense of the word? Does everything go black until the next dream? Or do you feel the world is meaningless because it's imaginary? By answering that question, it may help rule out some possibilities. What you are basically asking is - do they have sentience of their own for as long as they are being dreamt? And do they have a consistency and coherence over time - at least some special ones. And if so - do they get simulated forward while not being dreamt? That I do not believe. I have these question as well, in a way - but always going by the basic assumption, that if they were sentient - they would anyway be "only" parts of my own mind, separated for that duration, but also coherent and spontaneous. Difficult - I need more experience to even start formulating "theories"...

[DawnEye11]

Dream characters don't have their own brain so they will react differently. Their actions are also based on how we think people will react to different situations. Their like game characters I think. If you hit them and their programmed to get mad they will get mad. If the person in your dream is real it would be hard to tell. I don't think people share dream a lot if they don't want to or with people they dont know though. That would be somewhat chaotic I think.-_ - I have a dream character(who is somewhat like a guide) named Dawn who knows when the dream is about to end. Before he told me why he would just make a sad/distant face and tell me he can't tell me why.But he did tell me before that it was cause he had a really important job to do. He didn't tell me what though. He couldn't. I think dream characters can be built like a game character. The more time you spend with it and take into consideration its likes/dislikes, the more realer they will get cause your brain can use that organized information to bring them in the dream. I see Dawn as a part of me, because he needs my brain to exist in the dream. He is a person for a while sometimes because im not in control of certain dreams.Then again some dream characters could be a real person I guess. Just for fun I'm going to say that its a dream to Dawn and see what he says. I think he's already aware of it cause he knows when its gonna end but Im still gonna say it. XD Than ask him more stuff.

[StephL]

It touches on the tulpa-topic - reading about these is what made me first consider to ascribe something like sentience to constructs, which run on my "hardware". I believe, that dream-sharing is completely impossible - but as usual in such cases - one can't prove a negative of that sort scientifically. It's just that there is no objective evidence for the phenomenon at all, and it would violate diverse principles of nature, that we do understand very well, meanwhile. A lot speaks against it, and in my eyes there is a total lack of any positive evidence, worth considering - meaning produced under controlled conditions and - very important - repeatable by independent scientists all over the world.

[Memm]

This sounds awesome, I've never really had a proper conversation with a DC, I have this fear I might start sleep talking, not sure if irrational or not, so I usually keep quiet when I become lucid.

[Laurelindo]

I believe it could simply be because that's the reaction you would expect from people in waking life; so your subconscious expectation is that a dream character, who closely resembles an actual person, would react the same way.

[Ctharlhie]

I believe it could simply be because that's the reaction you would expect from people in waking life; so your subconscious expectation is that a dream character, who closely resembles an actual person, would react the same way. Exactly. Dreams are based on schemata, the mental models of our experiences, when has a person ever claimed to be imaginary in our everyday experience? (except in cases of joking or rare mental illness).

[AnotherDreamer]

Exactly. Dreams are based on schemata, the mental models of our experiences, when has a person ever claimed to be imaginary in our everyday experience? (except in cases of joking or rare mental illness). I claim to be imaginary all the time, but I am quite odd.