Thread: You Passed The Limit?

Originally Posted by DawnEye11

It is said that in your dreams there are no rules, no boundaries, anything your heart desires you can do. But is that really a good idea or is it even possible?

From my experience, I think the answer to your question is a resounding "Yes." There are no limits to pass or avoid in a dream... if you can imagine it, you can do it, and do so without prompting your body to wake up. It is both possible to do anything you can imagine in a dream and, I think, a most excellent idea to try.

This is for very simple reason: when you are lucid, you know that the place you are visiting and the events you are encountering or causing are not real. Because, while lucid, you possess this knowledge -- and confidence -- there is little chance your body will react to what you do in your dreams. In other words, in order for your body to wake up, you must believe that whatever is happening to you is real; this is the case in NLD's, but not in LD's.

And yes, I have fallen (and landed) from great heights, messed with my DC's body parts (i.e., removing, crushing, reshaping), been shot, vaporized, and many other things that would be singularly traumatic in waking life, all with my body snoozing comfortably in my bed. (I never thought to wrap myself around a planet, though; I'll have to try that sometime).

As long as I'm here:

Of course you'll be alright when you wake up but I think our response to certain negative things we've done(While lucid) in a dream could be a sign that we passed the limit to what we should do in a dream.

I agree with this, sort of. I think our negative responses (i.e., guilt, anxiety, or perhaps the arrogance that Laurelindo mentions above) to what we did in LD's stems more from overstepping our own moral or conceptual boundaries, and not limits in the dream itself. In a sense, a LD'er might need to temper his experimentation to what he feels is right or wrong in waking life, and be very careful about "over-imagining" in a LD, and bringing his consciousness to places it is not yet prepared to visit.

One more thing I want to bring up is the reason why people appear non lucid in a dream. I had a dream last night where a dream character told me people happen to be non lucid most of the time because if they saw people shooting in a room they would panic, go crazy, than run away. If the person wasn't lucid they are more likely to walk down the stairs unaware of what was going on.

I think you might have this backward. When you are lucid is when you will see the shooting and not really care about it, because you know none of it is real. It is when you are not lucid that your DC self will react in fear and run away, because, being unaware it is a dream, you will think it is real (and so, distantly, might your body).

Also, non-lucid is the natural state of dreaming; caused (I think) because during sleep memory and self-awareness are not accessible. Non-lucidity is much more likely a product of physiology -- simply the state of our consciousness in a normal dream -- than it is a defense mechanism (though that is an interesting theory!).

If I can offer a word of advice as well: never believe what a DC says when she's talking about dreaming or lucidity, as they seem programmed to always get it wrong.

In spite of my (friendly) disagreements, I think this an interesting question, DawnEye11, thanks for raising it!

You are indeed very experienced if you can go through these things without waking up. I commend you for that. In my experiences though, even when I'm lucid and events such as these occur, I wake up. It could be because the feelings that are triggered after the event happens are negative for me. I mean, who would want to feel a thousand bullets going through you or feel the pain of having your face slammed on concrete even if you know its a dream? Perhaps if I managed to remove the feeling of pain in the dream and was able to imagine myself as a invisible being i would be able to leave the situation and still be in the dream. But that doesn't apply to every dream.There might be a dream where control is hard to obtain. In other words, you can expect things to be a certain way in a dream, but sometimes it isn't enough.

I think you might have this backward. When you are lucid is when you will see the shooting and not really care about it, because you know none of it is real. It is when you are not lucid that your DC self will react in fear and run away, because, being unaware it is a dream, you will think it is real (and so, distantly, might your body).

In my opinion it can go both ways. One way is your example; Thinking it is real will cause us to run away and panic. Another way is being lucid and panicking anyways because we don't want to feel in the dream what its like to be shot or because we don't want to wake up. (Which happens to those who end up having no control in the dream or to those who don't know much about Lucid dreaming.)

Also, non-lucid is the natural state of dreaming; caused (I think) because during sleep memory and self-awareness are not accessible. Non-lucidity is much more likely a product of physiology -- simply the state of our consciousness in a normal dream -- than it is a defense mechanism (though that is an interesting theory!).

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O.k. Thanks but if it is a defense mechanism does lucid dreaming have the same purpose? In what ways is it a defense mechanism? Could you give me a example?Also, I said what the DC said was sort of true(Not entirely)but what I should of said was the statement as it stands is false, but I get another idea from it. The idea I get from it is, there can be things in a dream we forget was happening and end up doing something else entirely. For example, you can be trying to survive an invasion one moment than be sipping tea in your house like nothing happened. I guess this idea mostly comes from those who prefer non lucid dreams because they don't want to confront the nightmares in their dreams.

never believe what a DC says when she's talking about dreaming or lucidity, as they seem programmed to always get it wrong.

I don't believe everything a DC says, that would be stupid, but I believe certain things can be used as a way to get new ideas or perspective from. For example,dreams/dream characters can help show us certain things about ourselves that we've been denying or repressing. Also, I don't know about never...If my favorite final fantasy character comes up to me in a dream and says lucid dreaming means your aware that your dreaming, so get lucid now, I'm going to believe them. After all, they did get it from my mind and it is correct.

^^ Okay, I think our streams of thought seem a bit crossed:

Originally Posted by DawnEye11

You are indeed very experienced if you can go through these things without waking up. I commend you for that. In my experiences though, even when I'm lucid and events such as these occur, I wake up. It could be because the feelings that are triggered after the event happens are negative for me. I mean, who would want to feel a thousand bullets going through you or feel the pain of having your face slammed on concrete even if you know its a dream? Perhaps if I managed to remove the feeling of pain in the dream and was able to imagine myself as a invisible being i would be able to leave the situation and still be in the dream. But that doesn't apply to every dream.There might be a dream where control is hard to obtain. In other words, you can expect things to be a certain way in a dream, but sometimes it isn't enough.

Lucidity and dream control are two different things. You can be extremely lucid (aware that you are dreaming) with no control at all, just as you can be barely lucid at all, and feel like you are controlling everything in the dream.

It doesn't matter if what you expect to happen does not; if you are lucid, you will still know you are dreaming, even if you cannot summon any control at all. By the same token, if lucid you will also remember that the pain from all those bullets is not real, regardless of whether or not you can control the bullets or the pain. Knowing those bullets, and the pain, are not real will tend to help you endure the excitement without waking up. In other words, knowing that the bad things that are happening are not real can be enough to both keep you asleep and perhaps curb your emotions and panic.

In my opinion it can go both ways. One way is your example; Thinking it is real will cause us to run away and panic. Another way is being lucid and panicking anyways because we don't want to feel in the dream what its like to be shot or because we don't want to wake up. (Which happens to those who end up having no control in the dream or to those who don't know much about Lucid dreaming.)

If you are lucid, if you know none of this is real, then there would be no need to panic. Sorry I keep repeating this, but it is important: if you truly know that what is happening is not real (almost the definition of lucidity), then there would be no need to panic or send signals to your body to wake up. Right?

O.k. Thanks but if it is a defense mechanism does lucid dreaming have the same purpose? In what ways is it a defense mechanism? Could you give me a example?

Actually, I was saying that non-lucidity is not a defense mechanism, but that it was an interesting theory of yours. So no examples, I guess. Also, since lucidity is generally a state that is triggered by a conscious decision (fueled usually by a whole lot of willpower), I can't see how it could ever be an automatic defense mechanism.

Also, I said what the DC said was sort of true(Not entirely)but what I should of said was the statement as it stands is false, but I get another idea from it. The idea I get from it is, there can be things in a dream we forget was happening and end up doing something else entirely. For example, you can be trying to survive an invasion one moment than be sipping tea in your house like nothing happened. I guess this idea mostly comes from those who prefer non lucid dreams because they don't want to confront the nightmares in their dreams.

Usually when lucid and the scene changes, you are aware that it changed, and remember where you just were. Also, the whole problem with nightmares is that they occur when you are not lucid, and think they are real... in a sense, when you are not lucid, you have no choice but to confront nightmares in your dream, because you think they are real, so non-lucidity could be a very bad choice for dealing with nightmares. In fact, one of the major benefits of lucid dreaming is that it empowers you to deal with nightmares because -- wait for it -- you know they are not real; indeed, LDing's usefulness as a tool for confronting or avoiding nightmares is a very popular reason people learn to lucid dream in the first place. Are we talking about the same thing here?

I don't believe everything a DC says, that would be stupid, but I believe certain things can be used as a way to get new ideas or perspective from. For example,dreams/dream characters can help show us certain things about ourselves that we've been denying or repressing. Also, I don't know about never...If my favorite final fantasy character comes up to me in a dream and says lucid dreaming means your aware that your dreaming, so get lucid now, I'm going to believe them. After all, they did get it from my mind and it is correct.

Fair enough. I was just pointing out something that happens to me a lot, and I've seen reported quite often on these forums. But if you've got a DC helping you to become lucid, I'm not arguing about that at all.

I felt a need to respond to your post, simply to clarify a few important things, but I have a feeling, DawnEye11, that we may be operating on slightly different wavelengths here and will not come to an agreement or understanding. So, to avoid messing up your thread and pulling it way off topic, you really don't need to respond to me (I'll just say the same things again anyway).

Most of what you said I already know.The only thing I have a problem with is staying in the dream after a violent event in a lucid dream. I can only think of two that managed to wake me up and my body was involuntary shaking for a few minutes. I knew it was just a dream but i still woke up because it was intense for me.Also, I was just saying that even if its not real people get scared anyways because they don't know much about it or how to handle an event like that. I will take your advice into consideration about how to stay in the dream though. One more thing, nightmares can occur when your lucid. :/ Not every lucid dream is a walk in the park.