Thread: Why aren't we always lucid

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

But now that you've brought this up, I am very curious as to where the 'observer' is located. Is it in the conscious or the unconscious? Maybe it straddles both, or exists somehow between them? We may never know, or possibly science already has the answer and we just haven't got the memo on it yet.

How about this? Without going into the dual/non-dual perspectives, which I think of as more philosophical than physical subject*, I think that there probably is no "observer center" in the brain at all. Instead the whole brain is churning away, using all its parts in a powerful enough manner that produces an individual entity -- a Self -- that can do far more than than any individual piece of the brain could do on its own. In other words, there really is no "left" or "right" brain, consciously speaking, though both sides may make unique contributions to the Self's actions, including observing.

By the same token, I really don't think of the unconscious as a unique entity that operates separately from the conscious (aka, in this context, the waking-life self); instead, it is a facet of the overall Self, contributing what it does to ensure that we're, say, observing as best we can...things like finding and routing memories, handling all the reptilian brain activity, and inspiring emotion, all of which are important to the act of observing. To separate the unconscious from our overall Self, even if you're just doing so to better understand the machinery, is to separate a deeply integral contributor to our Self that is active all the time, very much an aspect of our conscious existence, and not a separate entity making contributions when necessary. So for me it isn't so much that our Observer is straddling the unconscious and unconscious portions of our minds, but rather that we draw upon tools to make and define our observations, and two of those tools are the conscious and unconscious aspects of one mind. Rational** observation cannot happen without both aspects working together, just as, in terms of sentient awareness, neither aspect can operate completely on its own (including in dreams).

And yeah, until science learns to grasp the physically ungraspable, or builds a machine that can map and interpret a brain's activity in a holistic manner, it will likely never be able to define the roots of our self-awareness.

* Though it does tie right into the OP, since, in my opinion, a non-dual perspective is decidedly anathema to our genetic design, which is what makes it -- and LD'ing -- an unnatural perspective that can be difficult to develop and maintain.
** Simple observation, or basic awareness, can operate completely on an unconscious/autonomic level, though: a housefly exercises an enormous amount of awareness, but no one ever accused one of being self-aware, I'm pretty sure.

Originally Posted by Sageous

In other words, there really is no "left" or "right" brain, consciously speaking, though both sides may make unique contributions to the Self's actions, including observing... So for me it isn't so much that our Observer is straddling the unconscious and unconscious portions of our minds, but rather that we draw upon tools to make and define our observations, and two of those tools are the conscious and unconscious aspects of one mind. Rational** observation cannot happen without both aspects working together, just as, in terms of sentient awareness, neither aspect can operate completely on its own (including in dreams).

Well said. When I use the terms left and right brain, I do understand they aren't completely separate, and that they both in many ways do the same thing, but it's a simplified way of referring to the fact that they both operate in different ways. The left brain works 'in serial', so it computes things (if I may borrow the term) one at a time to allow a much more logical and rational analysis. This is conscious thought. The right brain method of thinking is 'in parallel', meaning it works holistically (synthesis) and doesn't separate things into pairs of opposites. I do understand though that they tap into each other and work in tandem all the time, I just use the terminology right and left brain to separate the 2 different modes of thinking, the conscious and the unconscious. Really left and right brain for me are symbols - though I suppose conscious and unconscious might be better (and less confusing) symbols. Sorry if that leads to confusion - maybe I should stop saying it that way. It just makes it easier for me to remember the way each part of the overall Self operates.

But I suppose you're right, that the observer or the Self can't be located in either the 'left or right brain', and that science is utterly incapable of locating it in the physical brain. Sort of silly of me to suggest it now that you bring it up. And sometimes I do forget that the Self is the full mind - the conscious Ego as well as the unconscious. Thanks for the reminder!

This is quite possibly the best discussion I've ever had on DV.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Wow, that is really fascinating! Is it scientifically validated? Spiritualists like Buddhists etc will often use scientific terminology but in a very loose way. I wonder if they're just saying that's the source of the Observer (etc) because it looks like the Eye of Horus?

I'm pretty sure it's all scientifically mapped out, but I don't know the details. I used to be very scientific minded, then slowly as I built my spiritual-thinking up, I found that same results can be found by spiritual-thinking as scientific-thinking, and scientific-thinking takes a lot of energy. I guess in the end I found that to be unnecessary energy to spend. But I'm a bridge builder so I gotta boost my scientific thinking again.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Without going into the dual/non-dual perspectives

Funnily enough, everything you said there works nicely with non-duality.
Indeed I like to take the perspective that the whole brain plays its part in creating that feeling of self. (I say feeling of self, to distinguish from true self). The way I see it is, *everything* makes up self. And that is the nondual truth.

But still the third eye is interesting. If you just look at your own experience and investigate your own third eye, it's very tangible. It's like you've got a floating eye that sees your sight from your two eyeballs, joined into one image. Plus if you really pay attention, you can feel the space of your other senses, and your thoughts, all being encapsulated in this one "eye".

Agreed - this is an amazing discussion.

Originally Posted by slash112

I used to be very scientific minded... But I'm a bridge builder so I gotta boost my scientific thinking again.

Yes, it's about keeping the 2 in dynamic balance. Your understanding will shift one way at times and then the other, but the point is when that happens to try to nudge it back toward holistic balance. There's a very strong tendency for each view - the logical (conscious) and the spiritual (unconscious) to each try to dominate and wage war on the other, so it can be difficult to find that balance.

Originally Posted by slash112

But still the third eye is interesting. If you just experimentally investigate your own third eye, it's very tangible. It's like you've got a floating eye that sees your sight from your two eyeballs, joined into one image. Plus if you really pay attention, you can feel the space of your other senses, and your thoughts, all being encapsulated in this one "eye".

Very true. I did some meditation for a while, and also messed with Chakra meditation and a few related things. I definitely became aware of the Observer. Very interesting what you say about it being able to see the views of both eyes merged into one. I don't really want to get into it too deep, but if you've ever heard of experiments done on split-brain patients, who had the Corpus Callosum severed (nerve bundle connecting left and right hemispheres), this is where scientific understanding about the differences between left brain and right brain thinking emerged from. And interestingly, each eye is connected to one hemisphere, though the connection is crossed (left eye connects with right hemisphere and vise versa). Fascinating stuff, but like I said, I don't want to write it all up here. Do a search if you're interested.