Now what?

[Skogsvokteren]

I've read "Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming" by Stephen LaBerge, and I've read basically all the stuff online about lucid dreaming that I can find. For the past six months or so, it seems I only come across information I've already read before. I want to study and understand as much as I can about dreams and lucid dreaming, without going to school for it. How would I go about this? Are there any specific books or topics I need to read up on, or would the only real and valuable knowledge come from simply studying my own dream world? I know there are colleges etc. where you can study dreaming/lucid dreaming, so what I'm asking is how can I go about aquiring that knowledge from home? Thank you all for your time.

[Hukif]

What do you mean now what? If the only book you have read is EtWOLD then you are missing a lot of information. Whatexactly do you mean by everything? And what do you want to read? And for what purpose? You should read in neuroscience if you want to learn more about dreams, really. There are really good books I can recommend, but gotta know more about what you want to read. Also, if you hit a now what, then go and get lucid and experience it for yourself and create new boundaries never seen before!

[Skogsvokteren]

My bad if I was explaining myself poorly. Yes, I want to read more books, heaps of more books. Because it seems all the generally available information, discussions, tips & tricks, tutorials, research etc. I come across both here on this website and elsewhere seems like everyone is just repeating the same basic stuff over and over and over again. I guess what I'm asking is what field should I start reading up on and studying to understand as much as possible about the dream state? neuroscience? philosofy? psychology? etc. It's such a broad spectre of study that I'm having trouble finding out exactly where to start.

[Darkmatters]

Well, I can recommend a few that I found fascinating. I've always been interested in psychology and especially the subconscious (aka unconscious) mind. One book I really liked was The Mind At Night by Andrea Rock. That's a link to the Amazon page, though it's Amazon US - you might not be from around here judging by the name . It covers some fairly recent science of what happens in the mind when we're sleeping and dreaming. Actually there's a Nova documentary that covers much of the same material, it can give you a big preview: Sorry, it seems to want to start well into the show - just scroll back to the beginning. I should mention, this book and documentary aren't about lucidity, just about sleep science, but I find that equally fascinating and of course they complement each other perfectly. Another really interesting book that covers lucid dreaming and goes into different territory from the LaBerge book is The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep, by Tenzin Rangyal Rinpoche. That's enough for now, but if I think of more I'll post them here. On the same page with each of these books of course you'll see recommendations for similar books.

[Skogsvokteren]

Well, I can recommend a few that I found fascinating. I've always been interested in psychology and especially the subconscious (aka unconscious) mind. One book I really liked was The Mind At Night by Andrea Rock. That's a link to the Amazon page, though it's Amazon US - you might not be from around here judging by the name . It covers some fairly recent science of what happens in the mind when we're sleeping and dreaming. Actually there's a Nova documentary that covers much of the same material, it can give you a big preview: Sorry, it seems to want to start well into the show - just scroll back to the beginning. I should mention, this book and documentary aren't about lucidity, just about sleep science, but I find that equally fascinating and of course they complement each other perfectly. Another really interesting book that covers lucid dreaming and goes into different territory from the LaBerge book is The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep, by Tenzin Rangyal Rinpoche. That's enough for now, but if I think of more I'll post them here. On the same page with each of these books of course you'll see recommendations for similar books. Thanks a bunch my man. Will check them out.

[Sageous]

Hmm... I would have thought that Darkmatters would've brought up C.G. Jung, who was likely the founding father of modern dream psychology (yes, Freud was first, but he just didn't quite nail the experience of dreaming as well as Jung did). You might want to check out Jung's work; Darkmatters can recommend better than I, but I suggest you look at Jung's autobiography, Memories, Dreams, Reflections, if only because it is a tour-de-force of Jung's point of view, but also because it's hands-down the easiest of his books to read. Another good Jung book (though he really didn't write it) is Man and His Symbols; it's written in a very approachable manner (it even has pictures) and was pretty much the last thing Jung worked on, so you get a good picture of his ultimate take on dreams, consciousness, and archetypes. Or you could just take a tour of Darkmatters' thread on Jung, which is pretty much a book in itself. Also, I second Darkmatters' recommendation of The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep; it's the best description I've seen of sleep yoga, an ancient Tibetan practice that is effectively lucid dreaming (the section on sleep yoga is a bit lacking, but at least you can get a feel of the overall Buddhist view of dreaming). Okay, all Darkmatters aside: The only other "required reading" book (other than EWOLD) I can think of is a two-volume set called Lucid Dreaming: New Perspectives on Consciousness in Sleep; it's a bit pricey, but it does touch on pretty much everything we've got, to date, on LD'ing. Also, and more to your OP: I guess what I'm asking is what field should I start reading up on and studying to understand as much as possible about the dream state? neuroscience? philosofy? psychology? etc. It's such a broad spectre of study that I'm having trouble finding out exactly where to start. I would start with philosophy, myself. Though the science on dreaming is finally picking up a bit, I personally think it has a long way to go before it can explain the conscious experience of dreams; better to start with a discipline that focuses on that, because there is much available to learn. Pretty much every major philosopher since Plato's time seems to have played with dreams in one way or another, so you might need to do a little browsing; here's a link to a neat little entry in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy that I just found that seems like it will give you a good idea of what to look for. If you're interested in the meaning of dreams (aka, interpretations), you may literally be on your own. I personally believe that meaning can only be gleaned by the dreamer himself, after careful reviewing the dream and doing some introspection relevant to it -- basically attaching meaning based on the dreamer's experience and personality, and not on some ready-made lexicon of what dreams are "supposed" to mean (aka: dream dictionaries). One excellent book I have found on the subject -- and one that better explains the point I just so miserably made -- is Inner Work, by Robert A. Johnson. And, Finally, there is the greatest repository on dreaming knowledge you will ever encounter: your own dreams. If you can learn to explore your dreams with an open mind, deep curiosity, and self-awareness, you may find all you need to know waiting for you whenever you go to sleep....no college or book can offer you the wisdom that comes from experience, especially, I believe, when it comes to dreaming. Good luck in your search!

[Darkmatters]

Hey Sageous! I did consider bringing up Jung, and was thinking about working up to it in a bit, but that's such a huge subject, and no simple way to navigate it. I haven't yet found an easily readable book by Jung, or one that encapsulates his ideas, at least not one written by him. He never wrote such a book. But yeah, I would suggest starting with something introductory like my lengthy and ever-growing thread, or a book designed as an introduction, like The Essential Jung, or if you're more interested just in his writings on dreams for example, there are books culled from his extensive Collected Works built around particular subjects - one called Dreams that would be ideal. However, the problem with this is that without a good understanding of his overall theories, much of what is said will just go right over your head I'm afraid. I don't want to put anybody off from reading Jung, but I also wouldn't try to push it on anybody because it's a vast and somewhat difficult subject to approach that I believe takes a long time to really understand, and a lot of reading along the way. I would approach it in chunks - read a book or 2, then maybe a year or so later pick up a couple more. And hopefully without coming across as too biased, I would recommend my thread as a good starting point to get an orientation on which books to get. I do think it's a good idea for anybody interested in dreams and consciousness or psychology in general to learn about Jung - the great thing about him is that he's really the only psychologist who takes into account the human soul, and the need for a meaning and purpose in life, which is essentially a need for something like religion or spirituality, though he did not believe in organized dogmatic religion but rather a direct experiential understanding of the divine or the spirit or whatever you want to call it. As far as I know, the rest of psychology is very Rational Materialist Reductivist, and tries to reduce the human to something like a machine. I think you might have flip-flopped your Jung books - actually Memories, Dreams, Reflections was the last book he worked on and wasn't really written by him but by his associate Aniela Jaffe, after a long series of interviews in which he was at first a very unwilling participant (and had to be bribed with a case of brandy!) but gradually warmed up to it more. That's because it was meant to be an autobiography, and he never felt like his life was important, though personally I think it ended up being a very good book, and I disagree with him about the importance of his life. Man and His Symbols was one of his early books, though he did extensively re-write it toward the end of his life. Maybe that's what you were referring to? The reason I wasn't ready to mention Jung yet is because I wanted to take some time and try to work out something - what to recommend, how to introduce the complexity of the subject matter, but I guess the gauntlet is thrown down now. Not really the way I would choose to approach it, but there it is. Maybe this is the only way though - I'm not sure there's a way to reduce the complexity of his writings. Though I do believe he is a genius and that it's absolutely worth it to wade through his writings to some extent, though I find books written about him by Jungian analysts are often far more readable and copmprehensible than his own books - especially books by Edward Edinger and Marie Louise Von Franz. All this info plus much more, and in much greater detail, is in the thread of course. About philosophy, you have to be very careful about how you approach it, mainly because there are 2 very different - opposite really, threads in philosophy. There's the classical, which is intended to provide working wisdom about how to live life, and then there's the Post-Modern, which is more of a deconstruction of everything and offers no meaning, purpose or answers, and instead pushes an agenda of social constructionism, which means they claim everything is a social construct, and that there are no biological or evolutionary truths behind anything we do or believe. In fact they go farther and claim that rationality is impossible. There's no real clear cutoff point between the two strains of thought, they've always existed side by side, but if you stick with the ancient Greek and Roman and other early philosophy, it will be largely Classical, and at the beginning of the 20th century it starts to veer radically into Postmodernism. Here's a Google book preview that explains it much better than I could: Explaining Postmodernism by Steven RC Hicks This actually applies to a lot more than just philosophy, it applies to just about everything in our world today - much that you find is written from a Postmodern perspective, and so is largely a politicized agenda rather than aimed at finding or elaborating truth. I think it's vitally important to learn about this, and then you can choose which side of the issue you come down on - postmodernism or classical realism. Without an understanding of this, people are lost and cast adrift to try to find their own way. The divide between Postmodernism and Classical Realism is the real center of today's political debates and everything else associated with politics, so coming to an understanding of it is key to understanding just about anything that's going on in the world politically. And really it's even more crucial than that, because the split (between classical realism and postmodernism) is not just political but personal. Each of us tends toward one or the other view, and it determines pretty much all of our beliefs and viewpoints. Personally I'm a huge proponent and student of classical Greek/Roman Stoicism, which I consider the best of the practical philosopies, and it's also the basis of today's Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, a branch of psychology that has proven extremely effective in helping people solve their problems and get on with their lives when things get overwhelming. Oh, I should state - Stoicism doesn't deal with dreams, it's a practical philosophy for life. As Sageous mentioned, until after Plato they didn't really delve into dreaming much. But if you're interested in subjects like philosophy and psychology, I think you might have a general interest in them, not just strictly related to dreams. Whew! Wasn't really prepared to dive into either of those subjects just now, but I'm glad I did. I think if I would have waited and tried to prepare a better presentation I might have never gotten around to it, so thanks for the push Sageous! I also wanted to say, anytime you read a book you like on a subject and you're interested in finding similar material, check the Bibliography at the end of the book. Most will have them. It shows the titles and authors of other related books that you can then look up on Amazon, read the reader comments and the Look Inside to see if it appeals to you, and then buy if you're so inclined. One more book in particular on the unconscious mind I would highly recommend is called Strangers to Ourselves. The same applies - read some comments and check the Look Inside, see if it appeals to you as it did to me.

[Sageous]

^^ First, Darkmatters, can I just say that I am amazed by the volume you can produce in your posts -- so many words, so rich in information; I don't know where you find the time! Hell, I'm retired and type about 50wpm, but still can't find time to generate posts of such scale (and careful construction). That said: Yes, now that you say it, I do remember that Memories, Dreams, Reflections was written by someone else. I guess as I read it I came to see it as written by Jung, and it stuck in my memory that way. But the volume of Man and His Symbols I have was indeed first published after his death, in 1964 (quote from the flyleaf: ... "He devoted the closing months of his life to editing the work and writing his own key section, which he completed only ten days before his death"); perhaps it was a rewrite of the original? Regardless, it is much more accessible than his "own" works... I think Memories, Dreams, Reflections is also a fairly easy read, BTW. Good points about the classical/postmodern schools (can I call them schools?) of philosophy; I hadn't taken my thoughts that far when I posted, and probably should have. I stand by my suggestion that a philosophical direction my be a good next step, though. I'm glad that you chimed in; I did hope you might!

[slash112]

I agree with everything that's been said so far. Some really good infos up there. But perhaps the most important thing you could do is to have a strong practice of lucid dreaming. Be a consciousness explorer. Any answers you can find "out there", you can find "in here". Everything else, books and resources, they are amazing to fill out your knowledge and understanding, but it should be well-rooted in experience, if you want to truly understand.

[Darkmatters]

Man, I spent probably at least an hour putting that post together and re-checking it over and over in Go Advanced before I actually posted it, and then 2 hours making changes!! And just now I see a couple of typos I need to fix. Man and His Symbols had a different title originally, offhand I don't remember what it was, but it was one of the early books. As I recall, he changed it so much that he decided to change the title. Schools really isn't the right term - there were many schools of classical philosophy, such as Skepticism, Cynicism, and Epicureanism, as well as Stoicism, all of which were essentially spinoffs from the philosophy of Socrates. I don't know how many Postmodern schools of philosophy there are, or if it's just one big movement. I suppose the book explains that - it's been a long time since I read it and my memory isn't all that good (that's a big part of the reason I make big posts loaded with info, so I can check back later - it's my crib notes basically). I just call them opposing threads of philosophy (though technically I suppose one would be sophistry rather than philosophy proper, since it posits that reason and logic are illusory).

[LighrkVader]

Good stuff! I'll read the book on post-modernism for sure.. I understand the basis for the philosophy and enjoy that type of thought quite a lot as well as the classical.. But I largely stay out of the politics, so I didn't realize it was central in society untill I got fascinated by Jordan Peterson recently. He is quite heavily opposed to the post-modernists at times. I figure I'll try and keep an open mind though it really rubs me the wrong way. I think maybe it's the idealism in it. What do they want!? Skogsvokteren er du i norge?

[Darkmatters]

What do they want!? I'm not going to answer that question here, because I don't want this to turn into a discussion about a book - it's supposed to be just book recommendations. Plus this topic has the potential to explode into political argument instantly, and I want to avoid that! So I'll let the book speak for itself. I offer it for orienting purposes - so people can understand the ongoing argument between 2 warring factions, and then can decide where they stand between the 2 poles. Until you understand this division, politics and philosophy is a huge incomprehensible mess. Also I'm waiting for the original poster to say something, to steer the conversation. I don't know if he cares about the more general philosophy/psychology books or if he's strictly interested in dreaming/unconscious related stuff.

[Darkmatters]

I will add this as a clarification - yes, the author comes down very strongly on one side of the divide. I think that's inevitable. The people who care enough to write about political or philosophical stuff are generally leaning very strongly in one direction or the other. It seems to me the centrists are generally not nearly as strongly motivated to write, and it makes sense. But - in his favor - even though he is on one side, he does present a good and balanced account of both sides and of the entire affair. This is the only book I've found that does that. But his own bias does come through - strongly at times. Try to ignore it when it does, for the sake of learning the material. Personally I don't lean as far to one side as the author does, though I do lean somewhat - we all do, and in fact this is one of the most central and formative aspects of personality. The side you fall on in this area determines to a very large extent what the rest of your beliefs will be. That's why I see this book as so vitally important, and something to base further study on. Because so far it's the only book I've found that clearly lays out the 2 sides of the argument. All the writers on the topic will lean very strongly one way or the other. If you want to learn about it, you have to develop the ability to read on and remain open-minded, even if you disagree with the author's perspective. That can be hard, especially if you're an extremist. Of course the extremists don't really care about clearly understanding the situation though, they're at war and they already know which side they're on. For my part, I'm more interested in understanding the lay of the land so I can make informed decisions. There's a thing called the Philosophical Attitude, or Philosophical Detachment, and it's what philosophers need to develop. In fact without it you can't consider yourself balanced or philosophical at all - rather you're ideologically possessed. If you don't clearly understand both sides of the issue, but believe strongly in one, that's not philosophical or intellectual, it's just propaganda. So I recommend trying to keep a philosophical attitude when reading books like this one. The information you can gain is invaluable. This divide - between classical realism and postmodernism - is one of the big opposites (as discussed on the Jung thread), and it's important to try to reach a balanced understanding of opposites, rather than let yourself be taken by one side and let the other one drop into the Shadow, where it will unconsciously influence you through projection. The smart people at least try to understand the opposition's real points, rather than argue their own straw-man version of it. Word to the wise. And this concept is important throughout the intellectual pursuits. When studying philosophy, psychology, literature, art, or anything related, you want to try to find your orientation first. And this book actually will provide a very good basis for that orientation, because the split between classical realism and postmodernism runs through the center of them all. It's one of the most fundamental and important things to understand period - as you're reading you'll find your understanding of the world coming into focus much more clearly. * * * * Too good to pass up - this video was just uploaded to YouTube, and it covers precisely the Philosophical Attitude I'm talking about - he calls it Experimentalism: