About the Dilation of Time in Lucid Dreams

[SpaceGod]

Wait! Before you post the usual 'No, Time Dilation doesn't work in a lucid dream; it's just you doing more or false memories,' I would like to clarify something: This isn't necessarily me asking about Dilation of time in a lucid dream; this is me giving a view on the concept that I possess and backing it up through logic. Now that you know this, you can resume commenting that if you'd like ************************************************** ************************************************** *************************To me, one of the most interesting debates about lucid dreaming is that of the possibility of time dilation in lucid dreams. On one hand, you have people who default to 'LeBarge's research indicated that we dream at about the same pace as in real life, so it's just false memories or you doing more while dreaming.' On another hand, you have experienced, reliable members of the LD community who have said that they have experienced several lifetimes' worth of time in lucid dreams. Heck, I once read a post somewhere about someone who had spent what felt like millions of years in a lucid dream as a God-like entity. And on another hand (Three hands? Better do a reality check), there are people who believe that our conscious minds can speed up to the same rate as our subconscious mind in a dream, but not much faster than that. There are those who purposefully dilate dreams regularly to spend more time lucid dreaming, and there are some who supposedly get trapped in their dreams against their will for weeks at a time. What's my take on it? I'd say it's 'Does it really matter which one is right?' I am a scientifically-minded individual-- I base my thoughts on scientific facts and possibilities, and I try to avoid using religion, emotion, spirituality, and similar things to explain my arguments. So, when I first started digging into this topic, I was thinking about time as it is-- A malleable, though very much real, blanket throughout the Universe. I knew that speed and gravity could dilate time, but I also knew that we didn't move very fast or gain any mass when we sleep. After an embarrassingly lengthy moment of thinking about it, I realized that the discussion wasn't about the dilation of time, but instead about the dilation of our perception of time. So, I began my attempt to understand it there, and eventually came to the conclusion that it really doesn't matter. It's probably blasphemous of me to imply that the perception of something doesn't really have much pertinence, especially considering the nature of lucid dreaming, but please bear with me. The biggest problem is with the very nature of human perception of time. We don't really perceive time as it is; we perceive a representation of time based on our level of awareness. You may believe that you live in the present, but you'd be wrong: You live in a construction of your mind we refer to as the present time. This construction fluctuates a lot-- and I mean A LOT. If you are more aware, your perception of time slows, and if you're less aware, it speeds up, which is why it is difficult to know how much time you spend totally unconscious IF you are awakening from a state of unconsciousness and don't have anything with which to reference to determine that period of time. Finishing off the perception of time is the idea of time that isn't there anymore (to us, at least)-- the past. You just read the words 'The Past' to conclude my previous paragraph. When you read those words, you read them at a time that we considered to be 'The Present' at the time. But, now that you are down in this paragraph, reading these words, you are no longer reading 'The Past' in the present-- you read 'The Past' in The Past. Now that you are reading this, and the reading of the words 'The Past' are now in the Past, you are no longer experiencing the reading of the words 'The Past.' It's just a memory now. And, even if you were to go back and read 'The Past' (in the previous paragraph) again, it wouldn't change the fact that the first time you read those words is just a memory. And, if you never forget this and never experience brain damage that makes you forget this, that's all that the first time you read 'The Past' will ever be again-- a memory, among uncountable other memories. You confused yet? If you managed to follow along with that train of thought, I applaud you-- I realize that I probably worded it in a confusing way, and apologize for that. Anyway, it's incredibly challenging to define what our experience of time is in a way that manages to prove the existence of our experience of time to be anything other than a series of memories produced along a line still being produced through the dimension of time. You could very well be on your deathbed, remembering this post for whatever reason, and it wouldn't really be any different from the original experience itself, assuming none of the details change. But that doesn't change the fact that this is a memory to you, nonetheless. So, we'll define our experience-- our perception --of time to be a series of memories at the moment they are created. The rate of the dilation of our perception of time, therefore, is the rate at which these memories are produced over a period of time. So, let's finally bring this idea back around to dreaming. Theoretically, this allows us to bring parts of each of the explanations given in the introductory paragraph together, and still be right. We experience the dilation of time in a dream to be the summation of various false memories inserted into your mind and a large range of activities that allow your conscious perception of the dream to facilitate the supposed dilation in the perception of time. Now, let's address the false memories. Many would argue that false memories are not true time dilation. I disagree. If you create a false memory, you experience all of those events at the moment you recall them, and your memory inserts them into their appropriate position in the timeline of the dream, allowing you to recall that event that didn't really happen even in your dream. Surely, the memory of an altered experience of time in a dream is just as real as the the memory of the experiences in the dream itself, as the memory of those experiences are created in your dream. Therefore, it should be possible to dream for an absolutely massive amount of time, like, for instance, millions of years. Even if these 'False memories' are truly false, you can't definitively prove that any of your 'Real' memories and experiences are real either, so the false memories and experiences of your dreams could be treated the same as the real memories of your dreams that you have, as long as these false memories are created in the dream, or by the immediate memory of the dream, and not by a biased waking you. Am I completely misguided in my conclusion? Any feedback is appreciated!

[slash112]

Great post, I loved how you put it. That was a good wee trip, reading that. I do agree with you. And I just wanted to point out this: Even if these 'False memories' are truly false, you can't definitively prove that any of your 'Real' memories and experiences are real either YES! I always say, the only thing you can even prove to be "real" is your current perception of the moment. Heck, you can't even prove what you're looking at. Only that you are looking at it. If you create a "now moment" which fully feels like you've just lived a thousand years, who is gonna tell you it didn't happen?

[LighrkVader]

I understand your point. I am uncertain as to which degree you think it doesn't matter though.... it sounds to me that you think the value of such an experience, would be in it's recall and not in the moment in which the experience actually happened for the first time. I assume that I am misunderstanding you here... but... I would disagree with that. I hardly ever go down memory lane about anything. (with the unfortunate side effect that I forget a lot, and don't have any good stories to tell) Lucid dreaming can be used to practice real life skills. So if you have a week long LD and you spend a couple of hours every day practicing a skill. Certainly it would matter if it was real or not once you wake up... And just for the record, I believe it is reasonable to think time dilation in dreams is possible. Especially if you take the type of epistemology that is at the core of this thread so far further as slash did.

[slash112]

Lucid dreaming can be used to practice real life skills. So if you have a week long LD and you spend a couple of hours every day practicing a skill. Certainly it would matter if it was real or not once you wake up... Good point. If you had false memories of practice, I think it would still be beneficial, but nowhere near as much as going through the motions in real-time. So when you look at it like that, it's important to make the distinction. And just for the record, I believe it is reasonable to think time dilation in dreams is possible. He said lucid dreams, not dreams. Everyone knows time dilation is possible in dreams. I don't think I've had a lucid dream in which time was dilated much. But I definitely don't see why it wouldn't be possible.

[SpaceGod]

Hmm... I hadn’t thought of the practical implications of false memories being a ‘real’ part of the dream. Although, I’d imagine it would provide benefit if you lingered on the memory, like how it would be in waking life. Like, say for instance you had the training of a master martial artist implanted into your memory... you wouldn’t be a master martial artist right off of the bat, because your body isn’t fully trained for that yet, but you’d have an easier time getting there. I imagine that a false memory could do something like that if lingered on. Although, I’m not sure if it would be as good for that kind of thing as actually doing it in a Lucid Dream would be. But, if you had a false memory and could relive that false memory as well as you could the rest of the dream, maybe it could be possible that they would be equivilant experiences. This is one of those things that I’m not entirely sure about, so I’d probably have to test it out myself to find out.

[LighrkVader]

Haha. Have you seen Chuck? It's about an average joe who is accidentaly uploaded with all sorts of top secret info and skills through subliminal messages., like kung fu and dancing tango. And he becomes a super spy. Great show. And yvonne strahovski, dear lord. She was my first celebrity crush. I remember having several hour long daydreams about being uploaded with "the intersect" (name of the subliminal program) and having her character Sarah Walker be my CIA handler. I don't see how they would be equivalent experiences. They could be equivalent memories. But the experience takes place in the now. The memory is also experienced in the present, but that doesn't make it equally "real". I can't imagine lingering on the memory could be anywhere near as good as practicing in an LD. Especially for physical stuff. Take surfing. I don't know what thats like. If I linger on a false memory of surfing I have to do that based on my expectation and understanding of how the board moves through the water. Where as if the physics engine of the dream is as good as it often seems in very vivid LD's, surfing in an LD will be very similar to the real deal. And you would run into difficulties that you didn't expect and learn to overcome them. I have surfed some pretty huge waves in lucid dreams. But I didn't do it to learn to surf, I just wanted the rush, so I had it on on easy mode. Which is probably a lot like remembering how to surf.

[Goldenspark]

I'm not sure I quite understand your points about false memories and time dilation? I had one very memorable lucid where there was a weird stretching of time, and it was definitely nothing to do with false memories. I actually saw someone else's past life, sped up super fast. I was totally aware of it like waking life. I had another experience which was lucid where I know from independent observers that the dream only lasted a couple of seconds, yet my experience was at least ten minutes. Again, this was not just a memory, it was experienced directly, so although LaBerge might be correct that most dreams run in normal time, it doesn't have to be so. I think this makes sense as well, that time seems to slow down in stress situations (e.g. In a car crash). Maybe very long perceived time of years in a half hour dream is all about false memories, but I don't think that explains all time dilation or contraction in dreams.

[slash112]

Goldenspark, indeed time can be stretched in dreams, I suppose we neglected that part in this discussion. It's just that false memories are the most common type of time dilation. And it is good cause for discussion since false memories can be seen as either real or unreal. I'm pretty sure I've experienced that direct time dilation myself, in waking life and in dreams (lucid and non-lucid). Moments of ultra-high awareness I would assume causes time dilation. Like when you feel threatened or in danger, time slows down because your awareness is on boost.

[Goldenspark]

Ah, OK, I'm just not so sure that the two effects are the same at all. There's the real, of the moment time dilation, that you know is happening now, and then there's the "after the fact" memory that fools you into thinking you've just experienced time dilation. Sometimes the two can get confused (did I really experience that?), but for me at least, the two effects normally feel very different. I'm talking about lucids / semi lucids, not normal dreams here. Normal dreams for me don't tend to stretch time. I don't know why.