Thread: if LDing is real then what about. . .

lol you can't make that assumption, they are not the same thing!


are you joking?



Thats like saying "if lucid dreaming is real, than so is voodoo, santa claus, unicorns, and everything else thought to not be real by sceince!!1!" The existence of one doesnt not imply the existence of the other...logic 101.

Originally Posted by magicdood

And also, I am not going to go to a scientist. I don't want the publicity, I don't wanna "force" anyone to believe in this, and I don't wanna be ridiculed by people who will call me a fake....or more people than already, hehe.

But don't you understand that by not "proving" it you only make yourself a fake. If you were to show others this amazing skill of yours then there'd be no need at all to "force" any one to believe it because facts speak for themselves.

Originally Posted by Astral__Explorer

Up to this day I can't understand how my mind could tell me to do something RIGHT now and save my life. I once almost go hit by a truck because I looked and then was about to cross but my mind and body told me to look agian and sure enough a truck passed a few inches from me. (This type of stuff happened countless times)

In 1979, a survey of more than 1,100 college professors in the United States found that only 2% of psychologists expressed the belief that extra-sensory perception was an impossibility. A far greater amount, 34%, indicated that they believed ESP was either an established fact or a likely possibility. The percentage was even higher in other areas of study. 55% of natural scientists, 66% of social scientists (excluding psychologists), and 77% of academics in the arts, humanities, and education believed that ESP research was worthwhile.

Ok, as usual you all know my stance on this stuff, and you all probably have a general idea what i'm poking at with these two quotes. However, all i hope is that i am considered "rational" by both sides of this debate, nothing more. With that said, let me explain why these two quotes are significant.

The first quote, by astral explorer, states his reason for believing in ESP/paranormal occurances. However, there is a reason that the academy of science recognizes only 5 senses, that is because everything that can be conclusively and scientifically observed can be explained by those 5 senses. I am a man of science, and by saying that i mean i am skeptical about what you might say i should be more "open minded" about. I share a common aspect with astral explorer it seems, that is the 5th sense, that of touch, is slightly more sensitive than the majority of the population, i am suggesting of course that astral can detect slight changes in air pressure. The brain acted quickly using this information, which caused astral to think for a second before the truck crossed where he would have been standing. The reason astral could detect the truck before he looked at it, i hypothesize is because he sensed the overpressure in front of the truck (quite larger and more noticeable than that of a car) and therefore hesitated before stepping. It is a known adaptation that some humans can in fact detect more minute pressure variations than others. I, for example can predict when someone is at my door before they actually knock for this same reason, i could feel the slight rumblings of human footsteps in the house, my brain interpreted these vibrations and eventually i can predict with a good deal of certainty when someone is right next to my door. Someone with a more "open mind" however would interpret this as "ESP".

Secondly, i would like to discuss the second quote from the wikipedia article. This is an unencyclopedic rationale for why parapsychology exists, it implies that because of a majority of professors in the soft sciences agrees that ESP is real, then it must be true, when in fact, this could not be farther from the truth. I rely on the example of galileo and ptolemy, just because the world agrees that ptolemy's geocentric universe is true, does not make it such. In fact this wikipedia article is increasingly biased by the fact that they only cite sources in the soft sciences and no physicists were cited. In fact, they parapsychologists themselves have a majority against their own philosophy while social scientists and artists who don't even study ESP are quoted for their beliefs.

In conclusion, i would like to state once more that we have 5 senses for a reason, not 6, 5. And just because some people (or even a majority of people) attribute some phenomenon to the paranormal, does not make those phenomenon such.

Originally Posted by trigotron

In fact this wikipedia article is increasingly biased by the fact that they only cite sources in the soft sciences and no physicists were cited.

Not to mention, it would be nice to see some numbers taken more recently than 1979! The seventies were the heyday of ESP belief. I'm sure popular opinion has swung much the other way in the past 30 years.

Oneironaught- I am not trying to force anyone to believe anything and it is becoming frustrating how you keep accusing me of such.

Secondly, just because I cannot prove this stuff to you does not mean I'm a fake. It hasn't been proven NOR disproven. Provide me evidence that psionics has been disproven.

Now, the fact that you cannot provide that evidence does not mean that psionics is real. Definitely not. But the point is, you should keep an open mind before you are 100% sure that it is fake. I mean, you sit here telling me so confidently that it is not real, but what have you done to accept that theory. I mean, just hearing someone say that it sounds ridiculous to perform PK should not be enough to make you not believe. At least I have personal experience and personal proof to back up my beliefs. And sure, you might have tried to perform PK/psionics with limited to no success, but how can I be sure that you fully believed in what you were doing or actually tried your hardest using techniques that work.? I can't. I simply can't trust your word that you had no success despite your most valiant efforts.

Now, I am not forcing you to believe, nor do I mind you not believing. I hope that can be straightened up from this concise statement.

All I am saying is that, personally, I know that these things are real. If I can help another open-minded person to realize that, then great. But like you said, I don't wanna have to force these opinions of validity on people, and I will not seek the media nor scientist to do so.

Re-cap- I don't mind you not believing in these abilities, and I am not forcing my views. I understand that you have limited reason to believe what I am saying. I am simply trying to help others realize the potential of their minds by their own accord and their own willingness to accept the "challenge" of practicing these abilities. If you do not want to believe, then that is absolutely fine. But please stop making false accusations about me saying that I am mocking anyone or trying to force my beliefs. It's quite annoying.

Brandon

i know with absolute certainty that OBE experiences are real... i have a close family member that used to have them.. he could go anywhere he wanted.. do anything... talk with people in other continents... see visions.. but hes put all that behind him b/c he felt that it wasnt something that should be messed with... as to say something that we arent supposed to be able to do.. (he had other reasons for leaving it behind)... i however am tring to LD and when will decide for myself when i have a personal experience

Originally Posted by trigotron

The reason astral could detect the truck before he looked at it, i hypothesize is because he sensed the overpressure in front of the truck (quite larger and more noticeable than that of a car) and therefore hesitated before stepping.

But, couldn't it be as simple as the fact that a big truck racing towards him would make noise? He'd have to hear the sound. Secondly, couldn't it be as simple as him thinking "Oh sh!t, what am I doing walking out into the street without even looking first? Foolish me. Woah! there was a truck coming; damn good thing I remembered to look before I got myself killed."

Originally Posted by skysaw

Not to mention, it would be nice to see some numbers taken more recently than 1979! The seventies were the heyday of ESP belief. I'm sure popular opinion has swung much the other way in the past 30 years.

Exactly, remember the great scammer, Uri Geller? He had the world fooled. Even after being exposed as a complete fraud, many people still refused to accept that he was doing magic tricks and not really using "mental powers" to perform his "amazing feats".

Originally Posted by magicdood

Oneironaught- I am not trying to force anyone to believe anything and it is becoming frustrating how you keep accusing me of such.

Ok, what the hell are you talking about? I never said you're trying to force any one to believe anything. YOU said "I don't wanna "force" anyone to believe in this" and I responded by saying "If you were to show others this amazing skill of yours then there'd be no need at all to "force" any one to believe it because facts speak for themselves".

In other words, "forcing" has nothing to do with it. All you'd have to do is demonstrate this power and you'd have the world groveling at your feet.

Secondly, just because I cannot prove this stuff to you does not mean I'm a fake.

No, the fact that you cannot prove it means nothing. But, given how many people throughout the ages have claimed these outstanding magical abilities - TRYING to gain fame from them - the fact that NO ONE has EVER proven them to be actual powers (and not simply deception) tells any one with a logical mind that it's complete, utter bullsh!t.

There's been a $1 million Dollar prize - to be collected by ANYONE who can prove the existence of true psi powers - up for grabs for many years now. But guess what? Not a single person has claimed the booty. And why is that, I ask? I'll tell you: because every single person who's ever claimed to have such abilities has been unable to demonstrate these powers under any kinds of real scrutiny.

Science requires things to be able to hold up under scrutiny. If things don't meet such basic requirements then one must conclude the claimer to be full of sh!t.

You can move things with your mind? Fine, prove it or shut the hell up. That's the way the real world works.

It hasn't been proven NOR disproven. Provide me evidence that psionics has been disproven.

Oh no you don't. The burden of proof is on your shoulders, not mine. If some one tells me that they have the ability to move things with their mind yet, are unable to demonstrate this talent then they are, by default, to be considered dishonest. Why would the task of disproving be on my shoulders when you're the one making extraordinary claims?

Remember, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. No proof? No dice.

I mean, you sit here telling me so confidently that it is not real, but what have you done to accept that theory.

No, I'm telling you that you are claiming the very same thing that many others have claimed. And, like many before you, you refuse to prove your "abilities" because you can't. Do you really believe that the hundreds of thousands of people who've claimed these abilities all wanted to conceal their "powers" at the same time they are claiming to have such powers? That's absolutely absurd, to say the very least.

Sorry but, your claims hold no water until you show the goods.

Originally Posted by Oneironaught

But, couldn't it be as simple as the fact that a big truck racing towards him would make noise? He'd have to hear the sound. Secondly, couldn't it be as simple as him thinking "Oh sh!t, what am I doing walking out into the street without even looking first? Foolish me. Woah! there was a truck coming; damn good thing I remembered to look before I got myself killed."

Yes i considered that, however, for him to have heard it would mean that his entire story would be a complete fraud, there had to be something about the situation that made it seem extraordinary. After all, the sound of a truck coming is no more than that of really any other car coming on a busy street corner, he could have been not paying attention, but for him to believe so strongly what he felt was ESP, i highly doubt it was based on noise... or you're right, he's lying, he stepped into the street, the truck honked at him, he recoiled and is making this whole story about him suddenly believing in an outside force up. I like to believe what people saw, and dispute the reasons behind it, whereas your most recent quote was simply disputing what they saw. I believe this is counterproductive, it is better to attack ignorance than to attack people for what they cannot explain.

Originally Posted by trigotron

Yes i considered that, however, for him to have heard it would mean that his entire story would be a complete fraud, there had to be something about the situation that made it seem extraordinary. After all, the sound of a truck coming is no more than that of really any other car coming on a busy street corner, he could have been not paying attention, but for him to believe so strongly what he felt was ESP, i highly doubt it was based on noise... or you're right, he's lying, he stepped into the street, the truck honked at him, he recoiled and is making this whole story about him suddenly believing in an outside force up. I like to believe what people saw, and dispute the reasons behind it, whereas your most recent quote was simply disputing what they saw. I believe this is counterproductive, it is better to attack ignorance than to attack people for what they cannot explain.

That's interesting. You're claiming a possible explanation to be that he subconsciously felt a pressure change and I suggest that he subconsciously heard the sound. Yet, somehow, your explanation is acceptable and mine is just trying to be argumentative? Ok, whatever.

..............people wake up! we cannot proof something that cannot be seen. And yet it vibrates all around us does that mean it doesn't exist? LOL

Seriously theres no point on arguing with closed minded people. Know your self, know the truth. Keep an eye on everything..and see the truth.

We cannot explain something that doesn't follow our scientific calculations! never heard that? LOL math isn't perfect, such as we aint perfect that doesn't mean we are stupid right?

Did we come to this life just to uncover psychic abilities? and use it against us as we did on Weapons and atomic bombs? gosh...
Reality is something that we will never understand..it has no shape nor even colors and yet we percieve it in full in color.
Oobe or LD's real or not real? who cares? no one has a profit out of it so why bother explaining its existance?

Oneironaught- The fact that others have failed, still does not make me or psychokinesis a fake. It simply doesn't. All it states is that many people want to get rich, doing fake things. It does not mean that this is fake. You are acting like just because other people can't do it, it's not real. Yet that's simply not true.

Also, The randi challenge is crap now. Now, you have to be a scientist or a person with a high educational back round to even try to enter his challenge.

And guess what, there was a pretty good psion who attempted to go to the randi challenge and he wasn't allowed. So no, not ANYBODY can go. Do some research please.

Again, if you don't wanna believe in this stuff, that's fine. But it's doing you no good to tell me I'm fake and that this is fake. I'm pretty sure that I have seen myself performing PK so hearing you say that does not sway my opinion. And note, I am not trying to sway your opinion, I'm trying to open minds, so that they decide to believe in this themselves.

Born 2 kill- Good post and I understand what you are saying. However, I would really like to help others understand what their mind can do, and I love seeing another person succeed in these skills. However, there is no point in trying argue it's proof, since words will not get us anywhere.

Brandon

Ok people. I gave you the proof, the scientific evidence. Scientific studies prove its real. You cant argue with science, I'm sorry. You asked for the proof, we provided. And parapsycology includes PK.

"Ok people. I gave you the proof, the scientific evidence. Scientific studies prove its real. You cant argue with science, I'm sorry. You asked for the proof, we provided. And parapsycology includes PK."

Scientific studies like wikipedia and Uri Geller?

There is no scientific evidence for any of that nonsense.

The answer to the original question - if LD is real, what about the other stuff? Is this: Lucid Dreaming does not involve supernatural forces or souls. Lucid dreaming is simply having a conscious portion of your brain active while your body sleeps. To go from being aware that you're dreaming to believing in telekinesis, big foot, or esp is a BIG leap.

Originally Posted by magicdood

Oneironaught- The fact that others have failed, still does not make me or psychokinesis a fake. It simply doesn't. All it states is that many people want to get rich, doing fake things.

Now, with that, I agree 100%

Originally Posted by thegnome54

Is this: Lucid Dreaming does not involve supernatural forces or souls. Lucid dreaming is simply having a conscious portion of your brain active while your body sleeps. To go from being aware that you're dreaming to believing in telekinesis, big foot, or esp is a BIG leap.

Exactly my underlying point. Thank you.

Originally Posted by trigotron

Shit, i'm tired of this philosophical bullshit. This can be easily tested. Sombody give me the link to the site you guys learned from. I will attempt to practice this and get as good as i possibly can with a completely open mind. I want to find that this works, i would love to find something change my mind, so allow me, by giving me the site link to test this psi stuff for myself. You all saw my previous posts, so you know what my stance on it was before. I will post again with my results, i will treat it as a scientific experiment and i guarantee, i will give both sides something conclusive that will put this discussion to rest once and for all.

www.ppsociety.com www.psipog.net² www.mytelekinesis.com¹

Miscellaneous methods you create yourself, which is mostly what i do. Just like LD'ing, there isn't exactly a "one-technique works-4-all".

*NOTE:* Results vary from person to person. Average time to become o-k with the psiwheel is 3-6 months.

*Also: Meditation is strongly suggested.

¹ This site is currently being re-built.
² Site is non-community oriented. As of January.

EDIT: I am starting a new community site HERE at http://www.mytkgroup.tk The website is mostly finished, and the forums are ready for members.

Originally Posted by thegnome54

"Ok people. I gave you the proof, the scientific evidence. Scientific studies prove its real. You cant argue with science, I'm sorry. You asked for the proof, we provided. And parapsycology includes PK."

Scientific studies like wikipedia and Uri Geller?

There is no scientific evidence for any of that nonsense.

Gumby made an earlier post listing many scientific websites providing proof towards parapsychology. Please go read his post before you post nonsense like that.

Oneironaught- And also, that is a huge leap. I'm wondering how that was even brought up with LD'ing hehe. They are sooo different. But no matter!

Originally Posted by magicdood

The Wig- Yep, I can...getting there too.

Okay, you just admitted you can fly. All further posts by you are now irrelevant and no one should pay any attention to them.

Originally Posted by Caius Jonny

i know with absolute certainty that OBE experiences are real... i have a close family member that used to have them.. he could go anywhere he wanted.. do anything... talk with people in other continents... see visions.. but hes put all that behind him b/c he felt that it wasnt something that should be messed with... as to say something that we arent supposed to be able to do.. (he had other reasons for leaving it behind)... i however am tring to LD and when will decide for myself when i have a personal experience

I also know a friend of a friend of a friend who knows this guy who can shoot fireballs out of his eyes.

"Getting there"...since when does that mean that I can? It doesn't. Jeez you are seeming less and less bright with every post! Maybe no one should be listening to YOU anymore. That seems the better course of action seeing as all you do is be mean, sarcastic, and have a closed mind. You don't argue, you simply ridicule. Go find something better to do.

Oh and btw, it was a half joke. I can't fly, yet....my point was, it's a goal in the future, hehe.

Originally Posted by born_2_kill

..............people wake up! we cannot proof something that cannot be seen

What do you mean telekinesis can't be seen? If you can move an object with your mind, then you should be able to see the movement, right? Its common sense.

And that by itself would be enough for sceince.

All someone would have to do is telekinetically move something, and have scientists verify that they weren't using trickery or whatever (which they can do)

Originally Posted by magicdood

"Getting there"...since when does that mean that I can? It doesn't. Jeez you are seeming less and less bright with every post! Maybe no one should be listening to YOU anymore. That seems the better course of action seeing as all you do is be mean, sarcastic, and have a closed mind. You don't argue, you simply ridicule. Go find something better to do.

Oh and btw, it was a half joke. I can't fly, yet....my point was, it's a goal in the future, hehe.

Why does everyone spout off "closed mind" when someone disagrees with something they say? That seems so incredibly stupid I just can't fathom why it's used so much. If someone says they are violating the second law of thermodynamics and I refuse to believe them without proof positive, am I having a closed mind? No. That law is pretty much set in stone and extraordinary claims require some extraordinary evidence.

I don't have a closed mind. I'm perfectly willing to try new things. But do you even understand the claim you're making and how big it is? And you don't even try and provide evidence for it and just say that we're are "closed minded"! I'm sorry if you feel I "don't argue" and "simply ridicule" but give me a break. You just claimed that a goal of yours in the future is to fly. Sorry but...

It's not going to happen.

As for your Psi claims, that's false as well but I'm certainly more willing to believe that than you flying, but you still provide no evidence.


I still maintain that you and gumpy or gumby or whatever should just read one of our minds and prove it for real.

You say "That's false as well" and yet you argue that you aren't close-minded? Seems a little contradictory to me.

The fact that you are telling me that it's false allows me to think that you are close-minded. Do you know why? Because I've seen myself perform Pk. So I have every right in the world to call you close-minded.

Dude, wig, you ARE close-minded. YOu aren't asking for proof, you are just saying "0i!? T3l3k1n3s1s IzsnT r33l!!!!!111one!!one" That's all i see. If you REALLY want to find out. Train, try to do it, and... When you do, you will feel silly :p. I have a guide HERE

Originally Posted by magicdood

So I have every right in the world to call you close-minded.

Not close-minded: logical and sensible. As has been said, when you claim to break the known laws of physics, YOU are the one who must provide proof - not the other way around.

Originally Posted by magicdood

Gumby made an earlier post listing many scientific websites providing proof towards parapsychology. Please go read his post before you post nonsense like that.

I did read his post. Did you?!

Those links are all nonsense, sites trying to sell memberships, books, tapes, random vague references to experiments which probably never occured...

The FACT IS, lucid dreaming has nothing to do with the paranormal or spiritual or supernatural, or ANY of that stuff. Lucid dreaming is simply that - dreaming while conscious. If you think that makes it more likely that your neuronal action potentials can somehow move objects not in physical contact with you, or that wolf prints in snow which melted and became larger were made by bigfoot, or that intense hallucinations caused by lack of blood flow and massive head trauma are really trips to the garden of eden... well, THAT'S nonsense.