Thread: if LDing is real then what about. . .

It's all about having an open mind

If you have doubts about it then learn it and practice it consistently. Things like these I'd probably practice for six months constantly until I get results.

A lot of people are too close minded and don't believe nothing unless "Society" states its true.

For instance many people I've told about Astral Projection swear that it's impossible. Even Lucid dreaming they swear is impossible to do. I remember looking into remote viewing and watching a video where the guys classroom of RVers basically predicted something that happened. Many people wouldn't believe nothing that has to do with the mind.

If they can't use there 5 senses and it's not in the actualy physical world then they won't believe it.

The believe there is nothing at the bottom of the sea, when they've never been there. They claim certain mental things aren't possible but they have no clue what dreams or, nor deja vu, nor intuition.

It's funny because since I was young, I never really blew a statement or belief off until I got enough sources and results to come up with my own feedback.

Up to this day I never knew how I could pin point that I'd get something or something would happen a few minutes later. (I think this is similar to what they talk about in "The secret")

Up to this day I can't understand how my mind could tell me to do something RIGHT now and save my life. I once almost go hit by a truck because I looked and then was about to cross but my mind and body told me to look agian and sure enough a truck passed a few inches from me. (This type of stuff happened countless times)

Up to this day I can't understand why when I actually want something or try to force to get something I never get it. But when I force it and realize I'm doing that, I'd instead deny the possiblity of me getting it or that happening and then I happen to get it?


spirituality, psychics and psychology are probably the 3 most unknown things to the average person. There is alot to learn in these areas. These are the 3 things I tend to focus on the most in my life. Why? because there is alot to discover in these areas.

The average person doesn't even know how much energy is in there body.
- To find out just do a good energy technique, raise the energy and realize all the parts of you're body that may not have a decent energy flow going through, due to you never doing this before. Better yet realize how it almost hurts and you start aching)

Originally Posted by Astral__Explorer

It's all about having an open mind

If you have doubts about it then learn it and practice it consistently. Things like these I'd probably practice for six months constantly until I get results.

A lot of people are too close minded and don't believe nothing unless "Society" states its true.

For instance many people I've told about Astral Projection swear that it's impossible. Even Lucid dreaming they swear is impossible to do. I remember looking into remote viewing and watching a video where the guys classroom of RVers basically predicted something that happened. Many people wouldn't believe nothing that has to do with the mind.

If they can't use there 5 senses and it's not in the actualy physical world then they won't believe it.

The believe there is nothing at the bottom of the sea, when they've never been there. They claim certain mental things aren't possible but they have no clue what dreams or, nor deja vu, nor intuition.

It's funny because since I was young, I never really blew a statement or belief off until I got enough sources and results to come up with my own feedback.

Up to this day I never knew how I could pin point that I'd get something or something would happen a few minutes later. (I think this is similar to what they talk about in "The secret")

Up to this day I can't understand how my mind could tell me to do something RIGHT now and save my life. I once almost go hit by a truck because I looked and then was about to cross but my mind and body told me to look agian and sure enough a truck passed a few inches from me. (This type of stuff happened countless times.

You can also fly if you practice really, really hard. It just takes mind power, you know?

Originally Posted by Gumby123psi

You people dont seem to get it. There is no way we can prove it to you!!

Actually there is, its just that out of the thousands and thousands of people who claim they can do TK, no one has been able to *actually do it* yet. Now, maybe you confused the idea of you not being able to prove it to us, and the idea of it not being able to be proven. The truth is that science can be applied to TK, and relatively simply at that. It doesn’t take much, just a person who claims they have telekinetic abilities and a closely monitored room with controlled conditions. That's it. You don't need state of the art equipment, millions of dollars, or the brightest minds on the face of the planet to be able to tell if someone can actually move something without the use of their muscles. All it takes is a willing participant and sufficient conditions.

There is no good excuse for the lack of scientific evidence, which is why it isn't all that unreasonable for people to look at TK and be somewhat suspicious.

Originally Posted by Gumby123psi

You just have to practice and get results yourself. That is your proof.

You want to know what the problem is with this argument? It has no actual substance to it. Let me explain. You see, I have tried this, and it stopped working as soon as I put a glass over the psi wheel. Those *are* my results, and they don't seem to compliment your cause. But you see, the catch 22 with the "do it yourself" argument is that if someone actually does try it, but doesn’t get positive results, there is the convenient backdoor retreat of "well then you need to try harder".

I could say the exact same thing about anything that is otherwise impossible...like turning air into 100 dollar bills. All I need to do is say that I have done it myself, and if you want proof to do it yourself too. And when you fail (because it's impossible) all I need to say is "Well I know it can be done, because I have done it, so just because you can't do it doesnt mean it can't be done...".

But as you can see, like the air-to-cash example, there is no reason whatsoever that we would have to settle for "do-it-yourself proof" of telekinesis when such a phenomenon can be done in front of, and examined by, professionals. Right?

So what do you have to say about that? Explain to me why, when it comes to TK, people seem to think they are exempt from scientific analysis...

All I want to say is: In my honest opinion, I think the astral projection/let's-meet -up-in-our-dreams/bullsh!t part of this forum BRINGS IT DOWN and puts off many people... Lets kick them off the site! It's not real science! Lucid dreaming IS. It has been researched and CAN be proved! Astral Projection my fat A$$.

I’m not sure I'd go that far, but I can definitely relate with what your feeling. I too have my doubts about astral projection and dream linking, but on the other hand I have personally experienced things that have suggested the possible existence of "supernatural" abilities, which I feel is a misleading word because I don’t actually think such abilities are "supernatural", just unrecognized.


I have even done experiments to test some of my results when it came to Ethereal Projections, which can be found in my journal if anyone is interested (or I can copy paste my results if preferred). And though I don’t think OBE's or projections are literally the "spirit" leaving the body, nor do I believe in spirit guides or things of that sort, I do think that there is a possibility that extra sensory perception, in some form, could exist. This of course is based off of my own results, which I admit are lacking. But I am doing a second experiment however.

The point is that I try to keep a neutral stance on things, yet at the same time I actively try to discover the truth in my experiences. It’s not just me having a projection and saying "well, based on my experience I can make my soul leave my body" because it takes more than the personal experience to find truth. If I hadn’t tested my "psi" abilities by putting a glass over the psi wheel, then I too might be thinking "well I’ve done it myself, so I know it’s possible" …because after all, the psi wheel *did* spin. It just turns out it wasn’t because of telekinesis. But that could have only been determined by testing my abilities.

Without doing that, none of these claims have any merit at all...even those that have been experienced first hand. Shit, I have spin a psi wheel too. Ive even done it in front of people. But what I was doing wasnt telekinesis, though at the time I thought it was, or at least could be. The only reason I now know better is because I didnt just stop at the personal expereince, I applied science.

Finally back from hockey and a vacation! It was nice to get a break from everything, but here I am ready to argue? Nah..

See, I agree with Astral Explorer, although he never truly stated his belief as to psionics. Humans simply will not believe anything unless society and/or science says it's true.

What is the problem with the argument of "Practice and see your own results as proof?" Nothing.

Just because you saw no results, does not mean it isn't true. Can you run a 3 minute mile, 4 minute, 5 minute? No (it's just an example, so if you can, shh. :p) Does that mean it's not possible? No. And yes, I know that it has been proven to be possible, but that isn't the point. The point is, just because you can't do something, doesn't mean it isn't true.

The Wig- Yep, I can...getting there too.

Anyways, obviously there is no point in me stating my position on this argument. You guys are simply to close-minded to listen to what I have to say. Also, I understand and have stated that I really haven't given you any reason to fully believe me, and I know that there are many crazy people claiming incredible things that seem impossible. However, the point was simply to open a few people's minds, and maybe help them to understand some of the abilities that we as conscious beings have. And, I know that I have opened a few people's minds, and that makes me very happy and I'm glad for those people.

However, I don't need to argue any more about this....it is done. There is simply no reason to keep this going as neither side is having an effect on the other!

Originally Posted by magicdood

The Wig- Yep, I can...getting there too.

Okay, you just admitted you can fly. All further posts by you are now irrelevant and no one should pay any attention to them.

Originally Posted by Caius Jonny

i know with absolute certainty that OBE experiences are real... i have a close family member that used to have them.. he could go anywhere he wanted.. do anything... talk with people in other continents... see visions.. but hes put all that behind him b/c he felt that it wasnt something that should be messed with... as to say something that we arent supposed to be able to do.. (he had other reasons for leaving it behind)... i however am tring to LD and when will decide for myself when i have a personal experience

I also know a friend of a friend of a friend who knows this guy who can shoot fireballs out of his eyes.

In reagrds to the "do it yourself" argument:

Originally Posted by ethen

You want to know what the problem is with this argument? It has no actual substance to it. Let me explain. You see, I have tried this, and it stopped working as soon as I put a glass over the psi wheel. Those *are* my results, and they don't seem to compliment your cause. But you see, the catch 22 with the "do it yourself" argument is that if someone actually does try it, but doesn’t get positive results, there is the convenient backdoor retreat of "well then you need to try harder".

I could say the exact same thing about anything that is otherwise impossible...like turning air into 100 dollar bills. All I need to do is say that I have done it myself, and if you want proof to do it yourself too. And when you fail (because it's impossible) all I need to say is "Well I know it can be done, because I have done it, so just because you can't do it doesnt mean it can't be done...".

But as you can see, like the air-to-cash example, there is no reason whatsoever that we would have to settle for "do-it-yourself proof" of telekinesis when such a phenomenon can be done in front of, and examined by, professionals. Right?

So what do you have to say about that? Explain to me why, when it comes to TK, people seem to think they are exempt from scientific analysis...

read this please.

Done. I don't get it. What are you trying to say? I find it humorous that you are telling me that something I have done does not exist. Can't you see how I would find that funny?

Yep, that argument has flaws like almost if not all other arguments...however, it's the truthful one...that's all there is to it.

You don't get it? Let me explain it to you. The "do it yourself" argument is moot, and there is no reason why TK can't be performed in front of scientists in a lab, which means there is no good reason to have to settle for "do it yourself" proof, now is there?

Catching on?

Your word is worthless as evidence, which makes the come back "what’s funny is you telling me I can't do something I have done" worthless as a result. If you want to know why, look at my air-to-cash example. The fallacy is that this sort of argument relies wholly on the subjective experience, which means the negative results apparently mean nothing, and the positive results are objectively unsubstantiated, which is a fancy way of saying "hear-say'. The thing though is that you assume that is the only type of evidence you can get when it comes to TK...which is utter bullshit.

What’s funny is the way you seem to have no comprehension of the importance of objective, empirical evidence…. or the way you think you can undercut the suspicious absence of scientific evidence with your testimony. That’s what’s funny.

Yep, that argument has flaws like almost if not all other arguments...however, it's the truthful one...that's all there is to it.

and what say you about why there is no other type of evidence besides the subjective experience? Did you read how I have made a psi wheel spin, and how that personal expereince, when unverified, means absolutely nothing?

The point is that I try to keep a neutral stance on things, yet at the same time I actively try to discover the truth in my experiences. It’s not just me having a projection and saying "well, based on my experience I can make my soul leave my body" because it takes more than the personal experience to find truth. If I hadn’t tested my "psi" abilities by putting a glass over the psi wheel, then I too might be thinking "well I’ve done it myself, so I know it’s possible" …because after all, the psi wheel *did* spin. It just turns out it wasn’t because of telekinesis. But that could have only been determined by testing my abilities.

Without doing that, none of these claims have any merit at all...even those that have been experienced first hand. Shit, I have spin a psi wheel too. Ive even done it in front of people. But what I was doing wasnt telekinesis, though at the time I thought it was, or at least could be. The only reason I now know better is because I didnt just stop at the personal expereince, I applied science.

The point being there is nothing you can say that will justify why the scientific community has yet to substantiate telekinesis, and that is very fucking suspicious if you ask me.

Originally Posted by Astral__Explorer

Up to this day I can't understand how my mind could tell me to do something RIGHT now and save my life. I once almost go hit by a truck because I looked and then was about to cross but my mind and body told me to look agian and sure enough a truck passed a few inches from me. (This type of stuff happened countless times)

In 1979, a survey of more than 1,100 college professors in the United States found that only 2% of psychologists expressed the belief that extra-sensory perception was an impossibility. A far greater amount, 34%, indicated that they believed ESP was either an established fact or a likely possibility. The percentage was even higher in other areas of study. 55% of natural scientists, 66% of social scientists (excluding psychologists), and 77% of academics in the arts, humanities, and education believed that ESP research was worthwhile.

Ok, as usual you all know my stance on this stuff, and you all probably have a general idea what i'm poking at with these two quotes. However, all i hope is that i am considered "rational" by both sides of this debate, nothing more. With that said, let me explain why these two quotes are significant.

The first quote, by astral explorer, states his reason for believing in ESP/paranormal occurances. However, there is a reason that the academy of science recognizes only 5 senses, that is because everything that can be conclusively and scientifically observed can be explained by those 5 senses. I am a man of science, and by saying that i mean i am skeptical about what you might say i should be more "open minded" about. I share a common aspect with astral explorer it seems, that is the 5th sense, that of touch, is slightly more sensitive than the majority of the population, i am suggesting of course that astral can detect slight changes in air pressure. The brain acted quickly using this information, which caused astral to think for a second before the truck crossed where he would have been standing. The reason astral could detect the truck before he looked at it, i hypothesize is because he sensed the overpressure in front of the truck (quite larger and more noticeable than that of a car) and therefore hesitated before stepping. It is a known adaptation that some humans can in fact detect more minute pressure variations than others. I, for example can predict when someone is at my door before they actually knock for this same reason, i could feel the slight rumblings of human footsteps in the house, my brain interpreted these vibrations and eventually i can predict with a good deal of certainty when someone is right next to my door. Someone with a more "open mind" however would interpret this as "ESP".

Secondly, i would like to discuss the second quote from the wikipedia article. This is an unencyclopedic rationale for why parapsychology exists, it implies that because of a majority of professors in the soft sciences agrees that ESP is real, then it must be true, when in fact, this could not be farther from the truth. I rely on the example of galileo and ptolemy, just because the world agrees that ptolemy's geocentric universe is true, does not make it such. In fact this wikipedia article is increasingly biased by the fact that they only cite sources in the soft sciences and no physicists were cited. In fact, they parapsychologists themselves have a majority against their own philosophy while social scientists and artists who don't even study ESP are quoted for their beliefs.

In conclusion, i would like to state once more that we have 5 senses for a reason, not 6, 5. And just because some people (or even a majority of people) attribute some phenomenon to the paranormal, does not make those phenomenon such.

Originally Posted by trigotron

In fact this wikipedia article is increasingly biased by the fact that they only cite sources in the soft sciences and no physicists were cited.

Not to mention, it would be nice to see some numbers taken more recently than 1979! The seventies were the heyday of ESP belief. I'm sure popular opinion has swung much the other way in the past 30 years.

Oneironaught- I am not trying to force anyone to believe anything and it is becoming frustrating how you keep accusing me of such.

Secondly, just because I cannot prove this stuff to you does not mean I'm a fake. It hasn't been proven NOR disproven. Provide me evidence that psionics has been disproven.

Now, the fact that you cannot provide that evidence does not mean that psionics is real. Definitely not. But the point is, you should keep an open mind before you are 100% sure that it is fake. I mean, you sit here telling me so confidently that it is not real, but what have you done to accept that theory. I mean, just hearing someone say that it sounds ridiculous to perform PK should not be enough to make you not believe. At least I have personal experience and personal proof to back up my beliefs. And sure, you might have tried to perform PK/psionics with limited to no success, but how can I be sure that you fully believed in what you were doing or actually tried your hardest using techniques that work.? I can't. I simply can't trust your word that you had no success despite your most valiant efforts.

Now, I am not forcing you to believe, nor do I mind you not believing. I hope that can be straightened up from this concise statement.

All I am saying is that, personally, I know that these things are real. If I can help another open-minded person to realize that, then great. But like you said, I don't wanna have to force these opinions of validity on people, and I will not seek the media nor scientist to do so.

Re-cap- I don't mind you not believing in these abilities, and I am not forcing my views. I understand that you have limited reason to believe what I am saying. I am simply trying to help others realize the potential of their minds by their own accord and their own willingness to accept the "challenge" of practicing these abilities. If you do not want to believe, then that is absolutely fine. But please stop making false accusations about me saying that I am mocking anyone or trying to force my beliefs. It's quite annoying.

Brandon