Thread: if LDing is real then what about. . .

Yes, it's quite fascinating, isn't it? If the general public doesn't know about Lucid Dreaming, what other phenomena could they be missing out on?

Like you, I consider myself a realist. Like you, I would have never accepted Lucid Dreaming if I had not personally experienced it. However, learning about Lucid Dreaming has increased my respect for those "fringe groups" who believe in ESP, ghosts, aliens, etc. By no account do I believe them, and I still think that at least 90% of them are completely nonsensical (Murphy's Law), but I don't immediately reject far out views, as I would have before learning about Lucid Dreaming.

Then again, perhaps it's a true sign of intellectual maturity to be able to know that supernatural things aren't real, and still wish that they were. With that mindset, you eventually get rewarded with something as interesting as Lucid Dreaming.

Nice reply Naikou. I agree that I also don't look at other groups as being completely crazy anymore (just regular crazy) and that is the conclusion that I have mostly come to with doing the little bit of research I've done on other phenomenas. So I agree that LDing is the gem among the bullshit

And I KNOW bigfoot isn't real, thanks, it was an example to press a point

Great post needcatscan. In fact before I even had my first LD (they didn't come naturally to me) I even thought that maybe it was a huge elaborate hoax.

Sadly I think there are other people that feel that way that frequent this board and are still yet to have an LD, I know that's what I would be thinking, which if course shoots the confidence which is a huge part of obtaining lucidity.

I remember watching those vids of people moving psi wheels and so I tried it out myself and I just thought, "This is really f***ing stupid, all these people are just lying." That was the main motivation for the post: since we're not full of crap, are they not either?

Congrats on your first lucid, hope it was all we've cracked it up to be

Originally Posted by Needcatscan

Sadly I think there are other people that feel that way that frequent this board and are still yet to have an LD, I know that's what I would be thinking, which if course shoots the confidence which is a huge part of obtaining lucidity.

I remember watching those vids of people moving psi wheels and so I tried it out myself and I just thought, "This is really f***ing stupid, all these people are just lying." That was the main motivation for the post: since we're not full of crap, are they not either?

Congrats on your first lucid, hope it was all we've cracked it up to be

That's something I can agree with is the Psi-wheel. I used to know quite alot of people that thought the psi-wheel could help them in Telekinesis.
By the way, have you looked up the expression " Chi " Yet perhaps? Just curious.

I agree to a point, i have certainly felt the difficulty of trying to explain lucid dreaming to others while not sounding like a complete idiot.

but on the contrary, there has been research into this. we understand sleep, the stages of it why and what happens how it affects brain functions. we have a greater understanding of the topic of sleep itself than we do say, a 6th sense. lucid dreaming has been tested by more than just LaBerge. in fact studies on false awakenings and sleep paralysis had been examined even before LaBerge.

I think that one of the main aspects of Lucidity that make it more of a scientific fact rather than a psychic type phenomenon is that it presents testability and repeatability. LaBerge is well known for what i mean by "tests". As for repeatability, lucidity is something that can be repeated by anyone, with smiler results. sure, everyone reaches it in different ways, but we all experience similer feelings while doing things such as WILDing, HI and the general experience of LDing. telekinesis, telepathy and such are described differently form person to person, with great amounts of variation.

So yea...thats my take on the subject

Comparing lucid dreaming to stuff like telekinesis is like comparing apples to oranges. Dreaming is just an illusion created by your mind... that makes a lot more sense than something like telekinesis or precognition. I didn't believe in TK before and I still don't. Until I can do it or they can show me some proof I'll stay that way.

Unlike some of those other things that you mentioned, lucid dreaming actually does have some research and scientific backing behind it. Lucid dreaming is legitimately accepted among psychologists and is even used in therapy. I had a professor who told me so. She's a Ph.D (or M.D, which is a psychologist?)

An unlike some other things like telekinesis and ESP, it isn't all that difficult to imagine LDing. The dream is within your own mind and you mind creates awareness. Why couldn't they cross?

Originally Posted by naikou

If the general public doesn't know about Lucid Dreaming, what other phenomena could they be missing out on?

I would agree with the fact that lucid dreaming is i guess a phenomena, but do you all really place lucid dreaming that high up there with telekenisis and mind reading and all that stuff? (or would if those things were real) I guess I'm just "good" at accepting things that are more out of the ordinary, so lucid dreaming is one of those things where it's really cool and interesting, but it only gets to be a phenomena when I REALLY think about it. I think the reason behind me thinking this is just that everyone can do it if they really try. If it was just some gift that a select few people had then it would be a bit more strange

Why would you call me a liar for thinking that money isn't important. Did you not remember me saying that I am on the path of self-realization. When you do this, you start to lose your attachments to the physical world. So, therefore I am not attached to money. If it helps me help others, then I might care, but in this case, I am not here for fame or money. I'll admit, I haven't quite lost the attachment, but I'm not going to do this just for the money. That would be a huge waste.

Pull a Jesus? Haha. Nope, I don't mind you not believing in me! That's absolutely fine. I can understand you not believing in me. It doesn't bother me. Go right ahead.

With all the thousands of people out there with supposed "psi" abilities, you'd think at least one of them would have proven it to a respectable scientist. Or at least one of them to be in it "for the money." Or for there to be at least one peer-reviewed article in a scientific journal that explained logically how it works.

People have been claiming for hundreds, perhaps thousands of years to have these abilities, and not one of them has done much in the way of proof, aside from set-up demonstrations, the workings of which could be explained by any common street magician. Houdini made it his personal mission to debunk fake seances and embarrassed many "spiritualists" in the process. But for some reason, people are still buying into the notion that seances are real.

I will say that I have an extremely open mind to possibilities that haven't been discovered yet. I recognize the possibility of anything paranormal (ghosts, alien abduction, mind-reading, etc), but the accent here is on possibility. So far, I've seen nothing that leads me to believe it is even remotely probable. And until someone steps up and shows the world, I'm going to have to go on assuming that it's all built on false dreams and snake-oil salesmen.

Good for you. At least you are believing in what you want, and keeping in open mind. That's what is called a good skeptic. But the best proof, is the one you show yourself. I didn't quite, totally believe in this till I did it. Videos? psh...they didn't convince me.

But, I tried it out, and violah! I got it working, and now I believe in it fully. It's just a matter of having an open enough mind to try it out. ANYONE and EVERYONE can do these things. All it takes is some belief, some dedication, and the time to practice. And I guarantee you will see success. So don't look for someone else to find proof, don't be lazy! Just show yourself that it is real!

Originally Posted by magicdood

Good for you. At least you are believing in what you want, and keeping in open mind. That's what is called a good skeptic. But the best proof, is the one you show yourself. I didn't quite, totally believe in this till I did it. Videos? psh...they didn't convince me.

But, I tried it out, and violah! I got it working, and now I believe in it fully. It's just a matter of having an open enough mind to try it out. ANYONE and EVERYONE can do these things. All it takes is some belief, some dedication, and the time to practice. And I guarantee you will see success. So don't look for someone else to find proof, don't be lazy! Just show yourself that it is real!

you keep saying for people to prove that it's real by trying it themselves, but how are we supposed to do that? just point our fingers at something and think really hard and it will magically lift into the air? i dont think so. I am very skeptical about it but if you had any evidence such as showing people exactly how you even learned to do it (and not just saying time and dedication, but the actual things you did) then i might believe it. I'll do what you keep asking everyone to do and keep an open mind, but still this seems unbelievably unlikely.

Originally Posted by luv2dream

you keep saying for people to prove that it's real by trying it themselves, but how are we supposed to do that? just point our fingers at something and think really hard and it will magically lift into the air? i dont think so. I am very skeptical about it but if you had any evidence such as showing people exactly how you even learned to do it (and not just saying time and dedication, but the actual things you did) then i might believe it. I'll do what you keep asking everyone to do and keep an open mind, but still this seems unbelievably unlikely.

Why don't you experiment then? hm? Find a website with techniques and try them? What harm could it do except maybe waste an hour of your life you can't get back?

Seriously if every skeptic would shut their mouth for a few minutes and try it you might get results.

Originally Posted by magicdood

Why would you call me a liar for thinking that money isn't important. Did you not remember me saying that I am on the path of self-realization. When you do this, you start to lose your attachments to the physical world. So, therefore I am not attached to money. If it helps me help others, then I might care, but in this case, I am not here for fame or money. I'll admit, I haven't quite lost the attachment, but I'm not going to do this just for the money. That would be a huge waste.

Pull a Jesus? Haha. Nope, I don't mind you not believing in me! That's absolutely fine. I can understand you not believing in me. It doesn't bother me. Go right ahead.

On a path of self-realization. . . Sounds like a long boring trip :p j/k

I respect your stance on the matter even though I personally would like to see proof, but we don't get everything we want.

I've been researching (okay, really I've just been youtube searching) and have come to the almost 100% conclusion that it is all either trickery, coincidence or self-deception, mainly with this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlfMsZwr8rc

And as far as "try it yourself", been there done that.
Also notice that in ALL the psipog vids NEVER shows the person's face, body, etc, only the object and their hands. Which means blowing could have been used in every one of them and probably was. I'm even willing to believe that some people do it unintentionably and honestly believe they are doing it with their mind.

I'm still researching the Russian girl Nina.

Hehe, I couldn't agree with you guys more about videos! At least we agree on something! A lot of videos are fake...definitely a big fact!

However, that doesn't mean that telekinesis is fake, does it? I mean, skeptics will point out that a psi wheel can be moved by heat, yet does that mean that it cannot be moved in any other way? Of course not!

And for trying it out yourself, do some research. There is not just one method. What I do/did, might not work for you. Also, belief in the ability helps, so if you have 0 belief that it will work, then chances are it won't simply because of the mental block that it creates.

I'm glad that some people are finally delving into this. And by all means, I'm not saying to have blind faith in me or anyone else. I could very well be lying. I'm not, but how do you guys know that? So like I said, doing it yourself is the best proof.

I would suggest, for starters, going to psipog.net (archived, but the articles are great), psistudies.net or psilinks.org to find more great sites, or psionicsonline.net

Furthermore, don't get caught up in videos. It's just too hard to tell what is real and what is not. It's not even worth arguing about the validity of certain videos. Just trust me on that one, haha.

Good luck,
Brandon

P.s. If you guys have any questions, wanna learn more, or just have any comments, I'm always going to be checking the private messages, so feel free to contact me that way!

Originally Posted by magicdood

Hehe, I'm loving this!

First off, I see where you are coming about the article on psipog, fair enough.

However, there have been numerous people who could do telekinesis that have tried to setup a meeting with Randi and been denied.

In fact, http://psistudies.net/forums/index.php?topic=541.0

Anyways, not everyone here is in this for the money. I am on the path of self-realization and Enlightenment, and money to me, means very little. I can't say that about everyone, but that takes a way me at least.

Furthermore, I don't need you calling me a liar. I mean, this argument is going to get nowhere. I've done Pk in real life, you are very close minded...and that's it.

How can you call me a liar when you have never seen me perform Pk. How?

Brandon

Oh and a quick addition about brain power and such. An empty mind does help in telekinesis. You've never tried so why are you arguing that?

I can call you a liar because you're not even willing to TRY to prove to us your wild claim of telekinesis.

And for the record, I have tried it in my younger days (read: 4-5 years ago). I believed in that crap 100% and tried to do witchcraft, tried to make these stupid psi-balls, spent a good time doing it. Wanna know why I failed? Because a) it doesn't exist and b) I wasn't about to try and trick myself into seeing a ball. Also, I've never heard ESP and the like connected with enlightenment. Try Buddhism? As for Buddhist, I just think they're able to clear their minds so much they don't give a crap for anything and take it while it goes. If you really think you can do telekinesis, why not use it to save the goddam world?

If it turns out you and your ESP buddies are real, you're all incredibly selfish. But that won't happen because you're not selfish; you're delusional.

Originally Posted by Needcatscan

Okay, I'm extremely skeptical about PK but I certainly don't think it's impossible (hence me starting this thread). And I found it very interesting how in P&N Bullsh!t that they show a quick clip of the famous Russian woman (Nina Kulagina) back years and years ago who had hundreds of controlled tests done on film and she proved she could move things with her mind over and over again, and yet Penn and Teller didn't talk about her AT ALL. Curious. And I've seen every Bullshit episode and I think Randi was an awesome guy. After reading those emails and board posts I think he's a first rate ass.

Many skeptical individuals and organizations, such as the James Randi Educational Foundation and the Italian Committee for the Investigation of Claims on the Paranormal(CICAP) express strong skepticism regarding the truth of these claims. It is noted that the long preparation times and uncontrolled environments (such as hotel rooms) in which the experiments took place left much potential for trickery.[1] Skeptics have argued that many of Kulagina's feats could easily be performed by one practiced in sleight of hand, through means such as cleverly concealed or disguised threads, small pieces of magnetic metal, or mirrors.[2] They further point to the fact that no sleight of hand experts appear to have ever been present during experiments, and that the Cold War-era Soviet Union had an obvious motive for falsifying or exaggerating results in the potential propaganda value in appearing to win a "Psi Race" analogous to the concurrent Space Race or arms race.

Let's not trust the USSR, mmkay?

Originally Posted by Needcatscan

Getting on with my original post, I'm not calling you a liar because you say you can perform PK, I'm calling you a liar because you say money means very little. This is a major sign of someone who is completely full of shit.

Also, most comps have webcams by this point, post a video that makes it plainly obvious you are performing PK, put a non-magnetic object under a clear bowl and move it around or something. Don't pull a Jesus and just say we should have faith in you.

As for money, I can understand people who say money isn't important to them. As long as they lead a comfortable life (which doesn't mean rich), then who cares? Money destroys people all too often. (But a million dollars won't ). Either way, this guy is lying.

Originally Posted by magicdood

Why would you call me a liar for thinking that money isn't important. Did you not remember me saying that I am on the path of self-realization. When you do this, you start to lose your attachments to the physical world. So, therefore I am not attached to money. If it helps me help others, then I might care, but in this case, I am not here for fame or money. I'll admit, I haven't quite lost the attachment, but I'm not going to do this just for the money. That would be a huge waste.

Pull a Jesus? Haha. Nope, I don't mind you not believing in me! That's absolutely fine. I can understand you not believing in me. It doesn't bother me. Go right ahead.

We will go ahead. You're not impressing us.

Hehe, I'm still loving how you are calling me delusional. It just shows your ignorance. I mean, you are telling me that I cannot do Pk, when I have rolled a can, slid foil, and other things via telekinesis. Yet you are telling me that I'm delusional?

I don't have any reason to attempt to prove it to you. Why should I? All that will happen is you will find a way to call me a liar in more ways. You my friend are very very ignorant. The comment about Buddhist, I've never heard anything like it. It's so astounding how ignorant you are.

How am I selfish? I'm trying to spread the word of things that will help elevate us as a people, and you are trying to stop it...yet I'm selfish? I don't think so.

Furthurmore, your lack of knowledge about enlightenment shows your lack of ability to do any research, and your lack of ability to have an open mind. Not everything that you believe is true. And until you understand that, you will not ever understand the far greater potential of our lives.

Brandon

Isn't that kind of like "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" though? In other words, because we don't know a person can't wield psionics must mean the possibility exists, right?

Don't really have an opinion here, I'm just saying that some people think along different lines.