Thread: Lucid Dreaming Controversy

Originally Posted by Kromoh

O'nus, I don't understand any of your dissertative terms. All I know is that everything there is follows specific laws, named here as the laws of physics. Every action is the reaction of another action, which is the reaction of another action, and so on. So, the future can be determined, as long as you know the laws of physics (this is just like weather forecasts, but more complex).

Dreams are a category. Dreams aren't necessarily unconscious: that's the point you're missing. Dreams: those things you experience when asleep. They can be either conscious or unconscious.

But then again one must define consciousness. A conscious thought is one that is percieved by the whole brain functions associated to it. You cannot tell someone "I'm hungry" if you are not conscious of it: simply because the parts of the brain responsible for perceiving hunger and for talking are different.

One cannot "be" conscious: even in full wakefulness, many processes in our brain go unnoticed. But a thought can be conscious: it is when you can process that thought with your full mental faculties. Full consciousness over a thought is an extreme though: there are "levels", or amounts, of consciousness over a thought.

One can be dreaming and not realise it is a dream. At the moment that person realises he/she is in a dream, and are able to say that to themselves (therefore using another part of the brain, that of speech), then you can say they are more conscious of their dreaming. (remember full consciousness is an extreme)

Dreams have been proved real by the simple fact that our brain is actiev through the night. If our dream is only a bold thought or a whole scenario is a different thing.

LaBerge could prove the existance of consciousness in sleep (more specifically, in dreams) by communicating to the physical world through moving his eyes. He would never have signaled if he wasn't aware he was dreaming. Was it full consciousness? No, as it is an extreme. Was it more conscious than a regular dream? Yes.

I say the line between a lucid dream and a dream is when you can tell yourself you are dreaming. That doesn't determine full consciousness, but does determine you are more conscious than in a non-lucid dream.

Firstly, I maintain that I "understand" all points - I am merely arguing for the skeptics. I advocate lucidity and its benefits.

Considering what you said - is it not possible to have a dream, with very low consciousness, about having higher consciousness?
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Originally Posted by O'nus

There is a lot of controversy over the possibility of lucid dreaming and its benefits.

I think I've finally put my finger on the problem with this thread, and it's the original premise. There simply doesn't seem to be any controversy at all. I've never heard anyone tell me they find the idea implausible.

Originally Posted by O'nus

Firstly, I maintain that I "understand" all points - I am merely arguing for the skeptics. I advocate lucidity and its benefits.

Considering what you said - is it not possible to have a dream, with very low consciousness, about having higher consciousness?
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Well, as a first and primordial premise: yes it is possible. But for the person to dream that he perceives he is conscious, then I believe it would easily make the person lucid soon afterwards. If the person is dreaming that he is lucid dreaming, he does certainly have some perception that he is in a dream, even if it is low. He knows it is a dream, even if it's not with his full mental faculties.

Originally Posted by skysaw

I think I've finally put my finger on the problem with this thread, and it's the original premise. There simply doesn't seem to be any controversy at all. I've never heard anyone tell me they find the idea implausible.

Well, I have. For the sake of discourse, I have been acting as them (or the "devils advocate") Of course we can not expect these people to come to a lucid dreaming message board.
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There are still people that don't beleive in lucid dreaming... well then again everyone I know says they don't dream. We, my friends are some lucky people to even know they exist!

Originally Posted by O'nus

Well, that's the problem; as of now, we can't.

However, if we really wanted to make this interesting - I cannot even prove to you that I am thinking. I can show you EEG and what not, but that does not prove the existance of my self-consciousness.

Either way, this is the crux of skepticism in regards to lucid dreaming. Perhaps there are further implications in these studies than we imagine..? Some people speculate that dreaming is not really being unconscious at all. Anyone have any relevant articles..? It looks like I have got a lot of hunting to do.. I will return later..
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I think this is the whole problem it boils down to. I've thought about this problem for a long time, and I'm playing the devil's advocate too, but depending how you look at it it's not immediately obvious that lucid dreaming exists. Think about it, when you're in a regular dream, you're positive that you're fully conscious of yourself and your actions, but you aren't, and only realize it once you awaken.

What O'nus is trying to say is that it can be argued that dreams where we think we're lucid, or conscious that we're dreaming and in control of ourselves, could just be an illusion: we could be dreaming that we're conscious, but that doesn't mean we are. So coming back to what O'nus said, this comes down to asking the question: when we think "I am conscious that I am thinking and I am in control of my actions" does that mean it's true, in real life or in a dream?

Another argument for the skeptics is that people often report acting differently in their lucid dreams, in a way completely different to their real selves. That would mean that the consciousness is only an illusion, and that the subconscious is still in control. (one can counterargue with the different levels of lucidity, but still)

So to put it simply, as far as I understand the argument, it all comes down to one question. Is thinking that we are conscious of our actions sufficient to really have consciousness, or is there something more that is needed?

I think the general tendency would be to say yes to this question, otherwise we're putting our every day consciousness into question. So if the answer is yes, then lucid dreaming exists in the way it's usually defined, and we are truly conscious of our actions and of the fact the we are dreaming in LDs.

Now I'm starting to ramble, but this could also bring up another interesting idea: can we be conscious of actions, and yet not lucid? i.e. In a dream that has some realism to it, and be in full control of ourselves, but not realize it's a dream because you just think you're high, for example.

More to come on this... but I have to sleep. Hopefully my post isn't too long and boring.

LDs = higher perception of Self = Win. That's why they're so difficult to have...because most of us, including myself, go through our lives much like we would in a regular dream - just responding automatically to queus without any active mental resistance to our situations.

I'm having a little difficulty seeing this contrary point of view. I wonder if this is enough to satisfy those who are having trouble pinning down a definition:

I have had lucid dreams where I was not only aware I was dreaming and in control, but where I was also fully conscious of the conditions of the waking world. For example:

• "I am dreaming. This is a lucid dream."
• "The scene around me is all in my head, as is the image of my own body."
• "In real life, it is Friday night, October 2nd." I am in my bed lying next to my wife.
• "I had white pizza with artichoke hearts and peppers for dinner last night."
• "I went to bed at 11:30 pm, and set my alarm for 7:30. I estimate it is about 6:00 right now.
• "I woke up about an hour ago to go to the bathroom."

If one can answer these sorts of questions for themselves, there really can be no argument over what is going on. The only unanswerable is whether or not I am lying about it, but one might as well ask me if I'm lying that I like chocolate milk.

Originally Posted by skysaw

I'm having a little difficulty seeing this contrary point of view. I wonder if this is enough to satisfy those who are having trouble pinning down a definition:

I have had lucid dreams where I was not only aware I was dreaming and in control, but where I was also fully conscious of the conditions of the waking world. For example:

• "I am dreaming. This is a lucid dream."
• "The scene around me is all in my head, as is the image of my own body."
• "In real life, it is Friday night, October 2nd." I am in my bed lying next to my wife.
• "I had white pizza with artichoke hearts and peppers for dinner last night."
• "I went to bed at 11:30 pm, and set my alarm for 7:30. I estimate it is about 6:00 right now.
• "I woke up about an hour ago to go to the bathroom."

If one can answer these sorts of questions for themselves, there really can be no argument over what is going on. The only unanswerable is whether or not I am lying about it, but one might as well ask me if I'm lying that I like chocolate milk.

I don't think this will work. The majority of points you brought up are recollection - not awareness of environment outside the dreaming experience. I think, put simply, you can not have awarenss of your external while you are dreaming because then you would be awake and not dreaming. Your neurological system will either function its sense reception during sleep or waking life. The production of monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOI) is vital to the differences. When sleeping, MAOI are not produced and, therefore, you cannot receive proper sensory perception of your external evironment. Residual serotonin levels sporadically cause spurious synaptic firing which invariably produces dreams.

In short - you cannot receive perception of your external environment during sleep. This is the argument against Laberge because his verification for lucid dreaming are relfexive and left to scrutiny (ie. eye movement patterns during rapid-eye movement sleep... can you see the problem right there?).

However, of course you can recall memories, but this does not mean that you are aware of your current environment.
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Originally Posted by O'nus

I think, put simply, you can not have awarenss of your external while you are dreaming because then you would be awake and not dreaming. Your neurological system will either function its sense reception during sleep or waking life. The production of monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOI) is vital to the differences. When sleeping, MAOI are not produced and, therefore, you cannot receive proper sensory perception of your external evironment. Residual serotonin levels sporadically cause spurious synaptic firing which invariably produces dreams.

In short - you cannot receive perception of your external environment during sleep. This is the argument against Laberge because his verification for lucid dreaming are relfexive and left to scrutiny (ie. eye movement patterns during rapid-eye movement sleep... can you see the problem right there?).

However, of course you can recall memories, but this does not mean that you are aware of your current environment.
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well, you can (even if most of the time you don't like nor want) receive some info from the waking world. like, during a LD you can still think "i so hope the dogs will shut the hell up, so i can keep sleeping", or "damn, the sun is reaching my eyes, that's why i see all white", or also happens to have the double feeling of your imagined body and the real one on the bed...

those impressions can also (while not precisely) combine with memories: i.e: " i have an exam this morning, have to get up early. There's already ligth, so i'll have little time for this dream. damn!"

...... gosh... am i trying to advcate for LDs recalling the whole collection of failures?

Sometimes I dream of lucidity, like you say. Dreaming of Y, when I planned on X... These aren't very high quality lucids.

But nonetheless, I still strive to dream of X, and as soon as I do, I plan a new X. This disiplines my mind, so that I constantly prove to myself that I am improving, becoming clearer and clearer.

Could planning X make me dream of a lucid dream of X? Sure it could. Multiple times, consistently? Unlikely.

I want to believe I have sentient thought within my lucid dreams. Even deep into the dream, I ask questions that I would ask in real life. I ask dream characters important things, questions that I would have planned to ask as a dream goal in waking life. I'm sorry if this sounds confusing. Even after I have done X, I can create new goals within the dream, meaningful goals that I could have came up with in waking life. That is when I'm at full lucidity.

O'nus, my problem with that viewpoint it that veers from a scientific one into a philosophical debate about the nature of consciousness. For all intents and purposes, though, whether you're dreaming of being lucid or in fact being lucid in the dream has little weight on the outcome. Say, you're an architect desiging a house; you enter a highly realistic lucid dream where you walk around your projected house, look in all the rooms, see it several times with different internal designs, furniture, etc., and you make up your mind about whether it looks good, and with which designs it looks the best. Finally, you wake up and can apply this in real life. Whether you did this "conscious" or whether you dreamed of doing it, the result is identical - you have the memories of the different options of your house. If you fear that your analytical ability is impaired during sleep, you can retrospectively, with your memories, again make up your mind as to which internal design was the best and as to whether the house looks good. An architect can do that with dozens of ideas - the benefit is completely the same whether or not he achieved 'true consciousness' during this experience.

What really needs to be done is a serious neuroscientific study; most of all, MRI imaging of a person's brain during both dreaming and lucid dreaming and waking state is needed for any kind of reasonable debate on the topic. Or what about WILD's, when your consciousness does not get interrupted? If we can image the brain during the transition from consciousness into the lucid dream, we can exactly map out the regions of the brain which activate or deactivate during this period.

Originally Posted by O'nus

Some assert that lucid dreaming is in fact impossible and that you only dream of lucid dreams. Thus, you are not having authentic lucid dreams but dreaming of luicd dreaming.

Following that line of logic is tantamount to questioning whether or not you are dreaming of being alive. Only someone who hasn't had a lucid dream, or who believes that life itself is a dream would believe something like that.

Originally Posted by O'nus

In short - you cannot receive perception of your external environment during sleep.

Yes you can. Italianmonkey described the experience well. There are also machines that sense when you go into REM sleep, and send you flashing lights and auditory messages (like, "You're dreaming"). If you couldn't receive external stimuli while you were dreaming, what would be the point of such machines?

you can not have awarenss of your external while you are dreaming because then you would be awake and not dreaming.

I think you can because I did.

My first LD ever happened as one continuous chain of consciousness from waking state into the dream and out of it.

As I was in the dream I got scared of the whole thing and tried to wake up again which I noticed was kind of hard and I concentrated on perception of my physical tactile senses of me lying in bed which lead me out of the dream into waking up.

I do, however, think that dreaming of being lucid is a reality. It's a kind of low-level lucidity where you are, for example, telling yourself that this is a dream and deliberately do dreamlike things like flying, but you keep adressing DCs as if they were real people.

As concerns the benefits of LDs: I once had a LD where I met a psychotherapist who told me "all this LDing leads to nothing... you need a conventional dream". He handed me a drink to induce an unconscious dream which I decided I'd try.

The dream I had then was indeed kind of meaningful as it brought back long lost memories of my past.

So, all in all:

- full consciousness in a dream is as possible or impossible as in waking life
- conventional unconscious dreaming might be more useful at times. Trust your subconscious to come up with this stuff when it's on.

- skeptics don't want to be convinced. It's an idle activity and a waste of time.

My experience on dreams; normal dreams seem to just pass me by, in lucid dreams its more like being awake in how everything seems to be 'in the moment' and I'm able to exert control over what I want to do (and able to exert control on the dream itself).

As for LDing being just normal dreams considering waking life consciousness is not equal to any other state of consciousness. What about SP? You're alert but unable to move. What about people in long-term comas being conscious, being "locked in"?

I can understand why people consider LDing to be just a normal dream with the illusion of consciousness because of the physiology of sleeping (the way the brain/body functions during it would make you think it's impossible or at least hard to tell). If we could find out why we dream in the first place that may help. The other question to dissect is what is consciousness really.

Originally Posted by naikou

Following that line of logic is tantamount to questioning whether or not you are dreaming of being alive. Only someone who hasn't had a lucid dream, or who believes that life itself is a dream would believe something like that.

Yes you can. Italianmonkey described the experience well. There are also machines that sense when you go into REM sleep, and send you flashing lights and auditory messages (like, "You're dreaming"). If you couldn't receive external stimuli while you were dreaming, what would be the point of such machines?

I think we are coming to the true nature of the debate as it has philosphical implications. We can not truly empirically prove others have dreams of consciousness because, in order to do so, we would have to share consciousness. Otherwise, there is still room for speculation and philosophical skepticism.

When I say you cannot receive input from your external, what I intend is that your body will integrate exteranl input but will represent it unconsciously. Your reticular activation system (RAS) is still idly by listening to your external surroundings, but the rest of you system, as far as sensory reception goes, does not integrate or receive information because monoamine oxidase neurotransmitters are not being produced which convey perceptual images of the external. As a result, the residiual serotonin levels in your nervous system will ilicit spurious synaptic transmission and project imagery to the cortex. This results in dreaming and excludes the external periphery. Only when the RAS exceeds its synaptic threshold will it fire and awaken the cerebrum.
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And what about spontaneous lucids? As in, realizing you are dreaming before you discovered the term "lucid dreaming?" Surely these omit the possibility that lucid dreams are dreaming of becoming lucid, right?

EDIT: Never mind, I think I see what you're getting at. You could still be dreaming that you thought you recognized the dream state, and this dream thought need not spur from the knowledge of the term "lucid dreaming." I was trying to trip you up, but you are too smart for that.

Anyway, can you refer me to a good resource for the physiology of dreaming, as described in the post above me? I am highly interested, but have only learned basic qualities of sleep (brainwave stages, some integral chemicals).

Originally Posted by Abra

And what about spontaneous lucids? As in, realizing you are dreaming before you discovered the term "lucid dreaming?" Surely these omit the possibility that lucid dreams are dreaming of becoming lucid, right?

EDIT: Never mind, I think I see what you're getting at. You could still be dreaming that you thought you recognized the dream state, and this dream thought need not spur from the knowledge of the term "lucid dreaming." I was trying to trip you up, but you are too smart for that.

Anyway, can you refer me to a good resource for the physiology of dreaming, as described in the post above me? I am highly interested, but have only learned basic qualities of sleep (brainwave stages, some integral chemicals).

Check my physiology of sleep on this websites tutorial section.
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Originally Posted by O'nus

When I say you cannot receive input from your external, what I intend is that your body will integrate exteranl input but will represent it unconsciously. Your reticular activation system (RAS) is still idly by listening to your external surroundings, but the rest of you system, as far as sensory reception goes, does not integrate or receive information because monoamine oxidase neurotransmitters are not being produced which convey perceptual images of the external. As a result, the residiual serotonin levels in your nervous system will ilicit spurious synaptic transmission and project imagery to the cortex. This results in dreaming and excludes the external periphery. Only when the RAS exceeds its synaptic threshold will it fire and awaken the cerebrum.~

Gee, I had no idea that all of this got bundled into the definition of "lucid dreaming." And all this time LaBerge has been telling me it only means that the thought "I know am dreaming" occurs to me during sleep.

Whether or not you have a high level of consciousness, or are aware of your bodily senses is only a part of the debate of what LDs encompass, not if they exist in the first place. If you want to attach all these other stipulations to it, you're simply redefining the term into oblivion.

Originally Posted by skysaw

Gee, I had no idea that all of this got bundled into the definition of "lucid dreaming." And all this time LaBerge has been telling me it only means that the thought "I know am dreaming" occurs to me during sleep.

Whether or not you have a high level of consciousness, or are aware of your bodily senses is only a part of the debate of what LDs encompass, not if they exist in the first place. If you want to attach all these other stipulations to it, you're simply redefining the term into oblivion.

You are taking what I said out of context. Please stop trying to straw-man my points. I was explaining how you cannot receive stimuli from your external environment while unconscious. (You can 'receive' stimuli, but you do not necessarily process it for the reasons you quoted - which have nothing to do with lucid dreaming)

Take into account that I AM NOT a lucid dreaming skeptic. I am merely pointing it out for others to consider.

You do not like me, do you, skysaw?
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Originally Posted by O'nus

You are taking what I said out of context. Please stop trying to straw-man my points. I was explaining how you cannot receive stimuli from your external environment while unconscious. (You can 'receive' stimuli, but you do not necessarily process it for the reasons you quoted - which have nothing to do with lucid dreaming)

I'm merely trying to get this back on topic, but perhaps I never really understood what the topic was about? Isn't it about whether or not lucid dreaming is possible? That is what I was addressing.

Take into account that I AM NOT a lucid dreaming skeptic. I am merely pointing it out for others to consider.

Yes, I got that. I'm not trying to convince you it's possible, because obviously you already know for yourself. I'm only trying to point out that anyone who thinks it isn't, simply doesn't have the proper definition for it.

You do not like me, do you, skysaw?

Wow, that was not expected. I don't know anything about you, Onus. I don't have any reason to believe you're not a nice friendly person. I'm countering your statements with my own observations, not attacking you personally. At least not intentionally.

I have healthy debates with anyone who is up for it, as long as they're constructive. My wife and I occasionally debate over a topic, and I like her pretty darn much.

Originally Posted by skysaw

I'm merely trying to get this back on topic, but perhaps I never really understood what the topic was about? Isn't it about whether or not lucid dreaming is possible? That is what I was addressing.

I appreciate your diligence. (Seriously.. that is not sarcasm. I just realized the text may appear that way.)

Yes, I got that. I'm not trying to convince you it's possible, because obviously you already know for yourself. I'm only trying to point out that anyone who thinks it isn't, simply doesn't have the proper definition for it.

I think the very definition may be the root of the problem. It leads to a philosophic problem and skepticism because of this:
Dreams - Where we can experience anything in our unconscious sleep
Lucid dreams - Awareness in our dreams
+ With this in mind, the essential skepticism is that our "lucid dreams" are merely dreams.

As I said in my very first post, this is still technically a lucid dream, but it is simply the authenticity of the lucidity that is in question.

Wow, that was not expected. I don't know anything about you, Onus. I don't have any reason to believe you're not a nice friendly person. I'm countering your statements with my own observations, not attacking you personally. At least not intentionally.

I have healthy debates with anyone who is up for it, as long as they're constructive. My wife and I occasionally debate over a topic, and I like her pretty darn much.

Good, then it is mutual. I asked because I noticed you are quick to respond to my posts. Plus, I like to ask personal questions bluntly; it can break barriers very quickly.
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the essential skepticism is that our "lucid dreams" are merely dreams.

well, they are.

it is simply the authenticity of the lucidity that is in question.

let's turn this whole thing around, for fun...:

How do you prove someone is lucid in waking life? Maybe that would begin to clarify what exactly is meant by consciousness... my suspicion is that for most people (including me) becoming lucid in waking life is as hard a task as becoming fully lucid in a dream.

Originally Posted by dreamMeUp

well, they are.



let's turn this whole thing around, for fun...:

How do you prove someone is lucid in waking life? Maybe that would begin to clarify what exactly is meant by consciousness... my suspicion is that for most people (including me) becoming lucid in waking life is as hard a task as becoming fully lucid in a dream.

Consider Rene Descartes' "Meditations".
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