Thread: foolproof Instant WILD anytime ...

All very interesting.

For the person who mentioned that acid has never permanently damaged anyone I beg to differ. Way back when (in my younger years) I took 8 hits of pure liquid acid and the trip that ensued was amazing at first. After about an hour or so I began to over heat. My friends placed me underneath a cold shower and steam rose off of my head. I literally fried my brain that day. The excruciating pain was something I cannot really describe, to sit there tripping and know that your brain is frying like an egg on a skillet, it was extremely terrifying...talk about taking an initially good trip and turning it into something horrible! For almost two days I could not speak. For over a week I bumbled around like an idiot. To this day, (almost a decade later) at times my tongue "feels" like it is swelling and I have trouble speaking. It comes in waves, and thankfully occurs a lot less than it did in the past.

Would I have died? I really doubt it. Can it do damage? Yes it definitely can. I was terrified of all hallucinogens after that (and for the most part I still am).

I don't want my experience to hinder anyone else’s' curiosity. Just remember that often time moderation is the key to success.

Originally Posted by mel_noah

All very interesting.

For the person who mentioned that acid has never permanently damaged anyone I beg to differ. Way back when (in my younger years) I took 8 hits of pure liquid acid and the trip that ensued was amazing at first. After about an hour or so I began to over heat. My friends placed me underneath a cold shower and steam rose off of my head. I literally fried my brain that day. The excruciating pain was something I cannot really describe, to sit there tripping and know that your brain is frying like an egg on a skillet, it was extremely terrifying...talk about taking an initially good trip and turning it into something horrible! For almost two days I could not speak. For over a week I bumbled around like an idiot. To this day, (almost a decade later) at times my tongue "feels" like it is swelling and I have trouble speaking. It comes in waves, and thankfully occurs a lot less than it did in the past.

Would I have died? I really doubt it. Can it do damage? Yes it definitely can. I was terrified of all hallucinogens after that (and for the most part I still am).

I don't want my experience to hinder anyone else’s' curiosity. Just remember that often time moderation is the key to success.

Whoa.

A similar experience happened to me with only a half a hit.

Me and a friend only had a half a hit so we went to the store and bought a cylinder of concentrated orange juice. We finished of the juice and the trip began as the most beautiful awesome trip ever.
Soon I began to see sounds sparking out of the radio and the music stared to slow down and then speed up. It got very, very intense. I could feel a fire inside my chest that would burn hotter and hotter every few minutes like the pressure was building.
I went outside and couldn't tell if it was night or day and soon didn't know what state I was in anymore (Texas or Florida).

Then I saw my emotions spinning around my head and I could literally grab one with my hands and feel that particular emotion.

Really wild.

I was afraid of acid after that but decided to try it once more a few months later just to confront my fears. Without the orange juice of course. It was a nice relaxing trip.

Last was the last time I ever tripped.

fuck my whole post got deleted, I'm goin ta go shoot myself lol, GOD DAMMIT

Hallucinating is not the same as a lucid dream simply because you are not in control. Also, without regulating yourself you can be hurt or killed by acting out on your hallucinations.

I have never taken drugs of any kind(excluding medical drugs of course), but have considered salvia due to the fact that it is non-addictive and has no long-term side effects. My main fear with salvia is that my overactive imagination would come out and I would have a very very bad trip. I tend to worry about ghosts and spirits and things, even though I doubt they exist, and that would probably scar me for life if I had to sit through minutes of being attacked by malign entities in my hallucinations.

Still, if the occasion arose where I was in a very relaxed and calm state with an experienced trip sitter I might consider a light dose just to try it.

Salvia: I've had extensive experience with this plant, and the biggest thing to stress is that it's NOT FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE NEW TO HALLUCINOGENS. In low doses you're put into a hallucinogenic trance state with a good possibility of bad trips if you're not in the proper setting/mindframe. In higher doses, you lose your sense of self-awareness, which can be terrifying, though it frequently results in a positive overall experience for the tripper.

Another thing to stress is that salvia should be done with a sitter, someone you trust completely to make sure you don't do something that might harm yourself or others or have a bad time by tripping in a negative setting.

The high of salvia is nothing like lucid dreaming, in fact these are polar opposite experiences. One is losing self awareness while awake, and the other is gaining self awareness while dreaming.

Edit: FatalForces, I would absolutely suggest you give salvia a try under controlled circumstances. As with all hallucinogens, your mood during the trip will be entirely dependent on your surrounding environment, so just make sure you're in a calm, happy place with loved friends and you've got nothing to worry about; evil spirit attacks won't even occur to you. And once you're used to low doses, do it right (butane lighter, 50x extract) and experience ego death... it's like going on the greatest adventure of your life.

ive read numerous "breakthrough" experiences where people claim to be thrown instantly into another world where they are conscious and fully self aware. Sound pretty dream like to me...

Originally Posted by alfy984

ive read numerous "breakthrough" experiences where people claim to be thrown instantly into another world where they are conscious and fully self aware. Sound pretty dream like to me...

But it isn't. Salvia tripping involves different parts of the brain, different brain wave states, and different body chemicals than dreaming, as well as being a fundamentally different experience. Just because ego death (or "breaking through" if you're Jim Morrison) sounds similar to dreaming when the experiences are put into words doesn't mean they're the same thing; this is just demonstrating the limitations of our ability to describe such things.

Ego death involves the elimination of the part of your mind that needs language. You can't expect someone to accurately write a description of the experience of losing awareness of that part of their brain; it's like telling them to compose a melody that explains the theory of relativity.

And now you're taking that melody, and recognizing that it sounds similar to a tune in a McDonalds commercial, you've become convinced that the theory of relativity is a McDonalds hamburger. So you post and tell everyone "Don't spend the time studying Einstein when you could just go eat at McDonalds!" But really you're just directing them to an unhealthy meal.

Salvia's one of those drugs which puts you in such a different place that you're not aware of what's really happening at all. Sometimes you'll be sedentary and drooling, and other times you'll be attempting to fly from your 30th story balcony, or embrace oncoming traffic as an old friend. You're recommending a powerful substance to the inexperienced and unprepared, and that's just dangerous.

im not recommending anything... im just stating the fact that the effects of salvia are dream like. If someone wants to try I trust that they will do as I did and research as much as possible and read experiences before they make their decision.
It doesn't matter what chemicals are at work in the body/brain or that we dont fully understand the mechanisms behind dreaming and salvia experiences. The fact still remains that the experiences are similar in some ways. Its just something to ponder....

Originally Posted by alfy984

im not recommending anything... im just stating the fact that the effects of salvia are dream like. If someone wants to try I trust that they will do as I did and research as much as possible and read experiences before they make their decision.
It doesn't matter what chemicals are at work in the body/brain or that we dont fully understand the mechanisms behind dreaming and salvia experiences. The fact still remains that the experiences are similar in some ways. Its just something to ponder....

You're advertising salvia use as a foolproof method of reaching the lucid dream state on a forum of people trying to learn to lucid dream. If you don't think your post is designed to encourage people to try salvia, you're deluding yourself.

The body chemicals and brainwaves/brain states matter because they can be measured to differentiate between the two experiences.

You're right, tripping on salvia and lucid dreaming are similar experiences, in that both involve hallucination to some degree. That's where the similarities end.

The problem with your posts is that you're not advertising these as 'similar experiences,' you mistake one for the other, and claim that salvia tripping IS lucid dreaming. Your inability to differentiate leads me to be suspicious about whether you've ever really achieved dream lucidity.

Clearly, you want us to "ponder" the difference between dreams and hallucination. This isn't the way to start that conversation.

Maybe i am encouraging people to try salvia. Its legal %100 nontoxic and non-addictive. If you dont like it dont post on my thread.

You do not know for a fact that a salvia trip isn't dreaming. You don't even know for a fact that waking life isnt just a dream and you have no idea how chemical reactions and brain wave states in the brain cause subjective experiences. Everything i am saying is speculation and/or a paradox that can not be proved or disproved at this time.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Salvia: I've had extensive experience with this plant, and the biggest thing to stress is that it's NOT FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE NEW TO HALLUCINOGENS. In low doses you're put into a hallucinogenic trance state with a good possibility of bad trips if you're not in the proper setting/mindframe. In higher doses, you lose your sense of self-awareness, which can be terrifying, though it frequently results in a positive overall experience for the tripper.

Another thing to stress is that salvia should be done with a sitter, someone you trust completely to make sure you don't do something that might harm yourself or others or have a bad time by tripping in a negative setting.

The high of salvia is nothing like lucid dreaming, in fact these are polar opposite experiences. One is losing self awareness while awake, and the other is gaining self awareness while dreaming.

Edit: FatalForces, I would absolutely suggest you give salvia a try under controlled circumstances. As with all hallucinogens, your mood during the trip will be entirely dependent on your surrounding environment, so just make sure you're in a calm, happy place with loved friends and you've got nothing to worry about; evil spirit attacks won't even occur to you. And once you're used to low doses, do it right (butane lighter, 50x extract) and experience ego death... it's like going on the greatest adventure of your life.

My biggest hurdle here is finding someone that is into that sort of thing to begin with. None of my friends do drugs at all, so until I meet someone appropriate for the role of trip sitter it's just going to have to remain on my to do list.

Originally Posted by alfy984

don't you take in outside stimuli in dreaming too? ive had dreams where it was storming in my dream only to wake up and see a storm outside my window. I would say its possible to be able to control it like a lucid dream. But its not the same and it only lasts like 10 minutes. I agree with you that its like comparing apples and oranges, but apples and oranges are still made of the same atoms and even then they are still about %99.999999999 empty space. So in essence they are the same and yet they are still different.


Is it also fishy that body regulated DMT, the most powerful psychoactive substance known to man, causes you to dream every night?

Sounds interesting. I'm definitely going to try to train myself for lucids first, but if all else fails, Salvia Divinorum it is.

Originally Posted by Brainchild

Sounds interesting. I'm definitely going to try to train myself for lucids first, but if all else fails, Salvia Divinorum it is.

This is a perfect example of why the OP's misleading statements can put people in danger. Salvia is not a replacement for learning to lucid dream any more than mescaline, DMT, LSD, mushrooms, peyote, or any of the other psychoactive drugs with similar effects are. Salvia gives you the hallucinations without the sleep paralysis to protect you, or the ability to remember that you're hallucinating.

Alex, it's telling that you demand I leave your thread if I don't agree with your dangerous, misleading statements about this drug, when your OP actually asks for my opinion. Salvia isn't harmless, and it started the slow process of becoming illegal last year.
Your attempt to defend your potentially harmful suggestions with the claim that your actions have no consequences because this is all a dream world and we're just figments of your imagination is absurd.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

This is a perfect example of why the OP's misleading statements can put people in danger. Salvia is not a replacement for learning to lucid dream any more than mescaline, DMT, LSD, mushrooms, peyote, or any of the other psychoactive drugs with similar effects are. Salvia gives you the hallucinations without the sleep paralysis to protect you, or the ability to remember that you're hallucinating.

Alex, it's telling that you demand I leave your thread if I don't agree with your dangerous, misleading statements about this drug, when your OP actually asks for my opinion. Salvia isn't harmless, and it started the slow process of becoming illegal last year.
Your attempt to defend your potentially harmful suggestions with the claim that your actions have no consequences because this is all a dream world and we're just figments of your imagination is absurd.

Well, just like the other adults on here, I'm definitely not going to use Salvia until I've read up on it, but I am going to try it once. The LD king Stephen LaBerge was big into psychedelics and psychotrophics. He still touts their usefulness.

It's all about looking before you leap.

Originally Posted by Brainchild

Well, just like the other adults on here, I'm definitely not going to use Salvia until I've read up on it, but I am going to try it once. The LD king Stephen LaBerge was big into psychedelics and psychotrophics. He still touts their usefulness.

It's all about looking before you leap.

Please do, as I posted earlier, ego death is something both humbling and empowering that I think everyone should experience at least once during their life. Just don't leap expecting salvia to have any connection to lucid dreaming past inducing similar hallucinations, despite what the OP claims.

People smoking Salvia and tripping on it, is all over youtube!

FatalForces - You can actually find people who do that for a job. they won't be in the yellow pages but you can find them. Try forums and such.

Ok to Happiness is a Warm Gun -
Just because it is becoming illegal does not mean it is dangerous.
Alfy is not saying 'take salvia and you'll be the LD master 2000'
He is saying it is a similar experience.

Nobody knows 100% if Salvia is dangerous, nobody knows 100% if LSD is dangerous.
This is because they've been illegal only years after they were discovered in the Western drug culture. Therefore, no solid independent scientific studies.

Nobody has ever killed themselves on acid by jumping out a window thinking they can fly. That is a rumor,myth etc. Nobody has taken so much acid they think they are an orange for the rest of their life, it just doesn't happen.

What we do know is that the government has made almost everybody believe drugs will fuck your mind up. The point is, nothing is safe. NOTHING. Are you going to tell people not to advise drinking 8 glasses of water before bed so they can get up, piss and do WBTB? Large amounts of water are dangerous you know?

We are not the fucking government, we are not the head of a large company, we don't need to put a fucking warning label listing all possible side-effects of things we suggest.

Alfy said, "YOu have to treat Salvia with respect. Salvia is not a recreational drug at all. I use it only for meditative and psychonautical purposes." and that's f'in good enough.
He also said to research as much as possible etc etc. People CAN make their own decisions you know? If they don't want to hallucinate they are not going to go smoke a potent hallucinogenic because it could be like an LD or could help them LD.

OKAY *sigh*. I will say that if you are trying to use self-suggestion to LD then hallucinogenics could be a useful tool because you are getting a direct connection to your sub-conscious brain. This would enhance every emotion as well, which could help make connection in your brain to aid in becoming lucid. And that's why I think this is a good topic to discuss in a lucid dreaming forum.

Originally Posted by tommo

FatalForces - You can actually find people who do that for a job. they won't be in the yellow pages but you can find them. Try forums and such.

Ok to Happiness is a Warm Gun -
Just because it is becoming illegal does not mean it is dangerous.
Alfy is not saying 'take salvia and you'll be the LD master 2000'
He is saying it is a similar experience.

Nobody knows 100% if Salvia is dangerous, nobody knows 100% if LSD is dangerous.
This is because they've been illegal only years after they were discovered in the Western drug culture. Therefore, no solid independent scientific studies.

Nobody has ever killed themselves on acid by jumping out a window thinking they can fly. That is a rumor,myth etc. Nobody has taken so much acid they think they are an orange for the rest of their life, it just doesn't happen.

What we do know is that the government has made almost everybody believe drugs will fuck your mind up. The point is, nothing is safe. NOTHING. Are you going to tell people not to advise drinking 8 glasses of water before bed so they can get up, piss and do WBTB? Large amounts of water are dangerous you know?

We are not the fucking government, we are not the head of a large company, we don't need to put a fucking warning label listing all possible side-effects of things we suggest.

Alfy said, "YOu have to treat Salvia with respect. Salvia is not a recreational drug at all. I use it only for meditative and psychonautical purposes." and that's f'in good enough.
He also said to research as much as possible etc etc. People CAN make their own decisions you know? If they don't want to hallucinate they are not going to go smoke a potent hallucinogenic because it could be like an LD or could help them LD.

OKAY *sigh*. I will say that if you are trying to use self-suggestion to LD then hallucinogenics could be a useful tool because you are getting a direct connection to your sub-conscious brain. This would enhance every emotion as well, which could help make connection in your brain to aid in becoming lucid. And that's why I think this is a good topic to discuss in a lucid dreaming forum.

Actually, he said, "I have a foolproof instant wake-induced-lucid-dream when I smoke salvia, and you can too." He may MEAN that these are two similar experiences, but it took 3 pages of misinformation and my own prodding for that to actually be said. Reread the title of this thread.

Nobody knows 100% if anything is dangerous because at best we can define "danger" as something that causes us legitimate fear, and from some perspectives there is no legitimate fear. What we DO know for sure is that those who trip on psychoactives can potentially harm their physical selves without understanding the consequences of their actions.
For example, http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_journal4.shtml

Additionally, I won't go into detail about this incident, but I've watched a close friend go through severe psychotic trauma as a result of hallucinogens, resulting in permanent, negative, life-altering changes to his mental state. It happens, though I'm sure you feel more comfortable tripping with the belief that it doesn't.

Large amounts of water can induce water poisoning, and I definitely wouldn't ever advise someone ingest that much water instead of the normal minimum, 8 cups. You're trying to argue that because everything could be considered 'risky,' there's no reason to calculate risks before taking them. It's important that we let people make their own decisions on both risk assessment and psychadelic use by providing them accurate information, which the OP thoroughly lacks.

Your assumption that hallucinogens like salvia and LSD directly connect you to your subconscious contradicts the OP's claim that ingesting them will put you into a wake-induced-lucid-dream (which requires control of your conscious mind).

On the topic of Fatal finding a trip sitter, because tripping with those you trust implicitly is so important for maintaining a good trip, the suggestion of hiring a stranger to trip-sit seems especially unappealing.

I'll end with a silly question: You are faced with a choice between two options. The first possibility is option A. How do you make your decision?

Originally Posted by mel_noah

All very interesting.

For the person who mentioned that acid has never permanently damaged anyone I beg to differ. Way back when (in my younger years) I took 8 hits of pure liquid acid and the trip that ensued was amazing at first. After about an hour or so I began to over heat. My friends placed me underneath a cold shower and steam rose off of my head. I literally fried my brain that day. The excruciating pain was something I cannot really describe, to sit there tripping and know that your brain is frying like an egg on a skillet, it was extremely terrifying...talk about taking an initially good trip and turning it into something horrible! For almost two days I could not speak. For over a week I bumbled around like an idiot. To this day, (almost a decade later) at times my tongue "feels" like it is swelling and I have trouble speaking. It comes in waves, and thankfully occurs a lot less than it did in the past.

Would I have died? I really doubt it. Can it do damage? Yes it definitely can. I was terrified of all hallucinogens after that (and for the most part I still am).

I don't want my experience to hinder anyone else’s' curiosity. Just remember that often time moderation is the key to success.

One of my friends said he had a rather scary experience with acid. He played drums after taking it and said everytime he hit a different drum it cried out in pain like they were alive. He wont play drums again because he believes they have feelings.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Additionally, I won't go into detail about this incident, but I've watched a close friend go through severe psychotic trauma as a result of hallucinogens, resulting in permanent, negative, life-altering changes to his mental state. It happens, though I'm sure you feel more comfortable tripping with the belief that it doesn't.

Of course, everybody has seen this don't you know?
But yes, if you don't believe all the propaganda bullshit you're A LOT less likely to have a bad experience.
In a proper controlled setting LSD is one of the safest drugs ever.
That means. Calm, doctors nearby to make you feel safe, experienced trippers to guide you, starting with low doses. etc.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

You're trying to argue that because everything could be considered 'risky,' there's no reason to calculate risks before taking them. It's important that we let people make their own decisions on both risk assessment and psychadelic use by providing them accurate information, which the OP thoroughly lacks.

No, I'm not. I'm saying people can make their own decisions, research themselves etc. Nobody is going to go trip balls without doing any research whatsoever just to have a lucid! Just coz' a couple guys told them to.
If they do, on an evolutionary basis they should get chemically castrated from laced drugs.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Your assumption that hallucinogens like salvia and LSD directly connect you to your subconscious contradicts the OP's claim that ingesting them will put you into a wake-induced-lucid-dream (which requires control of your conscious mind).

Well I didn't say that did I?
and once again, he didn't say it WAS a LD he said it is LIKE and it MAY BE one.
Well at least that's what he's saying now. I know what you mean about the topic title though.
Anyway by having a direct connection to your subconscious you kind need something that's doing the connecting. Which is your conscious. I'm not saying your sub-conscious takes over, I'm saying you have an uninterrupted pathway between your conscious and unconscious mind.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

On the topic of Fatal finding a trip sitter, because tripping with those you trust implicitly is so important for maintaining a good trip, the suggestion of hiring a stranger to trip-sit seems especially unappealing.

I'll end with a silly question: You are faced with a choice between two options. The first possibility is option A. How do you make your decision?

Yeah, they go through all the getting to know you things. I'm sure it's fine, people do it all the time. If that's not a good option for you you can go to a shaman, the thought of fucking with you wouldn't even cross their mind.

I don't know why you said that question but I say you fuck the options and do what you want.

I say LD's obtained WITHOUT drugs are the best LDs. Just like I say anything done without drugs is the best way of doing things.

Originally Posted by Snowy Egypt

I say LD's obtained WITHOUT drugs are the best LDs. Just like I say anything done without drugs is the best way of doing things.

I don't share your prejudice towards magical plants and say: LDs are LDs and if a Marvelous plant can bring dreams of a higher consciousness and so aid Lucidity, then that is very handy and positive. Your judgement of "Drugs" closes you up for great experiences resulting from the divine powers our plant allies offer us. I've allways found it hard to grasp how many people here reason that utilising Plants to aid Lucid Dreaming is unnatural. :S

Originally Posted by mel_noah

All very interesting.

For the person who mentioned that acid has never permanently damaged anyone I beg to differ. Way back when (in my younger years) I took 8 hits of pure liquid acid and the trip that ensued was amazing at first. After about an hour or so I began to over heat. My friends placed me underneath a cold shower and steam rose off of my head. I literally fried my brain that day. The excruciating pain was something I cannot really describe, to sit there tripping and know that your brain is frying like an egg on a skillet, it was extremely terrifying...talk about taking an initially good trip and turning it into something horrible! For almost two days I could not speak. For over a week I bumbled around like an idiot. To this day, (almost a decade later) at times my tongue "feels" like it is swelling and I have trouble speaking. It comes in waves, and thankfully occurs a lot less than it did in the past.

Would I have died? I really doubt it. Can it do damage? Yes it definitely can. I was terrified of all hallucinogens after that (and for the most part I still am).

I don't want my experience to hinder anyone else’s' curiosity. Just remember that often time moderation is the key to success.

Side Note about Acid:
8 hits of pure acid? Well Acid is harmless, UNLESS off course you take the rediculous dose you took. Take too much of anything and it will be poisonous. Even water. Google "Water Poisoning". Somehow it would never occur to me to take 8 hits of acid. I've allways thought 1,5 blotter is the limit of desirable effects. Heard more of such stories from a friend who's lived in Hawaii for 2 years: In the US people seem to take AT least 4 hits a time and usually alot more. You simply OverDosed massively. It was you being dangerious, not Acid. Everyone who DOES acid should know that a standard dose and good trip is in between 200 and 400 micrograms. 8 hits of pure acid, assuming they were 400microgram doses(Pure acid: Liquid?) it means you took about 3200 micrograms: A REDICULOUSLY large dose.
OFF COURSE you experienced physical symptoms. A somewhat wiser user, like me, would know that taking that much is likely to result in physical symptoms and undesirably strong psychedelic effects. That won't ever happen if you take a normal dose; In between 200 micrograms and 400 micrograms. In blotters that translates into 1 good blotter(douced in acid). Why take so much?? Off course even acid can bring unhealthy physical symptoms if taken in large enough doses.

LSD: A briljant substance, with alot of not-so-briljant users unfortunately: This is what gives substances such as acid a bad name: The users who are wreckless. SO wreckless that they can probably get into great trouble playing Golf. When you want to do a drug, you'd do good going to erowid and read experience reports about it, especially the ones of folks who took it way TOO FAR. Your hyperthermia-acid experience was due to you being uninformed about a reasonable and safe dose. Had you reac Erowid Experience reports of LSD this would have Certainly Never have happened and you'd also find out that it doesn't take more than 400 micrograms to have an absolutely intense, but managable psychedelic experience.

'Nuff about acid.


Back ontopic: Salvia.
I have recently smoked some Salvia 10X extract(enhanced leaf) in a Joint. (What a wastefull method, but I wanted only minor effects:which I got)Actually I smoked 4 joints of some tobacco and 1/4th of the 0,5 grams of the extract per joint. I felt effects that were very appearant, entrancing, calmative and my attention was superstrong as with more psychedelics. Only the Clearity, of thought and Vision, was even more striking. It was as though the entire room suddenly fell silent. Much like a Non-breakthrough DMT experience.

I see how this Psychedelic Clearity, Focus and Entrancement can briljantly interact with Dreaming. So why don't you people keep your ignorant judgement to yourselves, while I and some other folks here explore the Oneirogenic potential of Salvia Divinorum?
If the Psychedelic experience is nothing for you, simply leave this Topic alone.
This is no moral discussion-Topic. This is an exploration topic. We will go there where you won't dare. Love it or hate it, but we're not waiting for your ignorant views of Magical plants. We have our own views. And since we defend them quite fiercely, assume we must have a good reason to do so.

If Salvia and Dreaming are to interact in a desirable way then I'd place a bet on Taking Salvia or Salvia Extract("Fortified" or "Enhanced" Leaf) Sublingually/Bucally as one is going to sleep (preferably in a WBTB fashion) I'm down for some Salvia Dreaming experimentation. I'll let you know when I'm up for it.

Originally Posted by SKA

I don't share your prejudice towards magical plants and say: LDs are LDs and if a Marvelous plant can bring dreams of a higher consciousness and so aid Lucidity, then that is very handy and positive. Your judgement of "Drugs" closes you up for great experiences resulting from the divine powers our plant allies offer us. I've allways found it hard to grasp how many people here reason that utilising Plants to aid Lucid Dreaming is unnatural. :S

I didn't say it was unnatural, I said having an LD without any drug is the best LD. And maybe I want to "close myself up for great experiences". If it makes me happy, then that's what matters to me. Divine powers my butt. The more you talk to me and say I'm missing out, the more I'm going to think of you like a person who pushes Religion on a non-religious person.

Take you "Divine" drugs for all I care. I'll stay happy without drugs, and have my LDs through practice and patience while being "ignorant".

SALVIA = GUARANTEED INSTANT LD !!!!


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