Thread: foolproof Instant WILD anytime ...

Originally Posted by tommo

Meh, your entire brain is made up of chemicals. There's some food for thought.

Yea seriously, nearly everything is made up of chemicals, and pretty much everything that isn't is related in some way to chemicals or parts of chemicals.

Guys if you are gonna complain about drugs, use specific reasons. Don't say things are bad for you just because your government happened to outlaw them (which is irrelevant, in some places it's illegal to walk your dog or for men and women to speak to one another), or because you do not do them. And you can't just say that LDing the "natural" way is better than using any sort of supplement, especially if you haven't ever tried it enough times to actually know for yourself. You can't make generalizations and say taking salvia is worse than LDing naturally, but that it is ok to take B6 supplements, because what if someone eats a lot of peanut butter and jelly, so they end up eating a ton of niacin every day? As opposed to someone who only eats peanut butter once a week, or not at all, and doesn't eat nearly as much niacin. I mean, where do you draw the line? They are all chemical compounds that you are putting into your body. Why say one is better than the other? If you are going to, give actual scientific reasons.

Originally Posted by Shift

Guys if you are gonna complain about drugs, use specific reasons. Don't say things are bad for you just because your government happened to outlaw them (which is irrelevant, in some places it's illegal to walk your dog or for men and women to speak to one another), or because you do not do them. And you can't just say that LDing the "natural" way is better than using any sort of supplement, especially if you haven't ever tried it enough times to actually know for yourself. You can't make generalizations and say taking salvia is worse than LDing naturally, but that it is ok to take B6 supplements, because what if someone eats a lot of peanut butter and jelly, so they end up eating a ton of niacin every day? As opposed to someone who only eats peanut butter once a week, or not at all, and doesn't eat nearly as much niacin. I mean, where do you draw the line? They are all chemical compounds that you are putting into your body. Why say one is better than the other? If you are going to, give actual scientific reasons.

Where in the world is it illegal to walk your dog, or speak to members of the opposite sex? Are these practices outlawed for public safety like the use of the drugs we're discussing, or due to social/cultural conventions? Considering that you're criticizing others for using faulty reasoning, your post is fairly hypocritical.

Why can't I make the argument that LDing the 'natural' way is best? My goal is to have as much control over my body as possible without being dependent on the aid of foreign substances. I don't think it's a wise tradeoff to make it easier for yourself to gain lucidity at the cost of becoming dependent on substances, when you could put a bit more effort in and be able to LD without needing external aid.

The reason Vitamin B6 is 'allowed' is that it plays a major role in aiding macronutrient metabolism, neurotransmitter synthesis, histamine synthesis, hemoglobin synthesis and function and gene expression. The illegal drugs in question have no positive effects on body functions, and are actually often harmful to your body, as is their method of ingestion. Though everything breaks down into chemical compounds, vitamins and hallucinogens are definitely not equally safe or beneficial.

Here's the simple scientific reasoning why B6 is not comparable to salvia as a lucid dreaming aid:
Salvia does not induce lucid dreaming in any way
Salvia is a dissociative (its effects are much more like PCP than DMT). It blocks signals to the conscious mind from other parts of the brain. Though it induces dream-like hallucination, there is no consciousness involved, and thus no lucidity. In other words, if you think that being on salvia is like being in a lucid dream you've never experienced lucidity, because salvia produces the exact opposite effect, putting you into a LESS lucid state.

My point isn't "don't do drugs," and isn't even "don't do salvia" (though dissociatives and especially salvia are well known for having a higher frequency of "bad trips" than most abused drugs). My point is that you've got no business recommending mind-altering substances to people when you clearly know very little about the substances in question. It takes many years of education to understand these substances; simply experiencing them doesn't even give you the basics of what you need to know to be able to safely or responsibly recommend them to others

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Salvia does not induce lucid dreaming in any way
Salvia is a dissociative (its effects are much more like PCP than DMT). It blocks signals to the conscious mind from other parts of the brain. Though it induces dream-like hallucination, there is no consciousness involved, and thus no lucidity. In other words, if you think that being on salvia is like being in a lucid dream you've never experienced lucidity, because salvia produces the exact opposite effect, putting you into a LESS lucid state.

LOL ! OMG you have no clue. Clearly you've never smoked enough salvinorin or dmt to reach breakthrough. Past the point of breakthrough the effects of salvia and dmt are identical for most people. When I smoke pure salvinorin-a and dmt crystals to the point of breakthrough I experience 'dreams' in perfect detail with complete lucidity, more real than my average ld.

If you fall short of breakthrough with salvia, its often unpleasant, but with dmt its usually still enjoyable. So I prefer dmt because there is less risk of a bad experience if you don't breakthrough. It is nearly impossible to breakthrough on most salvia extracts because they are not pure enough, unless you combine an maoi, which I definitely don't recommend. So you need pure crystals and a crack style pipe. The only reliable source for crystals I know of is ethnogarden.

Most people have at least partial lucidity during a breakthrough, but the level of awareness depends on the person.

I understand you are trying to protect people, but these substances are very short acting and have a very low toxicity, as long as people are smart and use a baby sitter its not very risky. The majority of people I introduce to these substances never use them more than once or twice because of the intensity of the experience, whether they reach breakthrough or not, but even though they don't want to do it again, most people admit it was a great learning experience.

Originally Posted by lucid4sho

LOL ! OMG you have no clue. Clearly you've never smoked enough salvinorin or dmt to reach breakthrough. Past the point of breakthrough the effects of salvia and dmt are identical for most people. When I smoke pure salvinorin-a and dmt crystals to the point of breakthrough I experience 'dreams' in perfect detail with complete lucidity, more real than my average ld.

If you fall short of breakthrough with salvia, its often unpleasant, but with dmt its usually still enjoyable. So I prefer dmt because there is less risk of a bad experience if you don't breakthrough. It is nearly impossible to breakthrough on most salvia extracts because they are not pure enough, unless you combine an maoi, which I definitely don't recommend. So you need pure crystals and a crack style pipe. The only reliable source for crystals I know of is ethnogarden.

Most people have at least partial lucidity during a breakthrough, but the level of awareness depends on the person.

I understand you are trying to protect people, but these substances are very short acting and have a very low toxicity, as long as people are smart and use a baby sitter its not very risky. The majority of people I introduce to these substances never use them more than once or twice because of the intensity of the experience, whether they reach breakthrough or not, but even though they don't want to do it again, most people admit it was a great learning experience.

You obviously don't know much about dissociatives like salvia and pcp, which can resemble hallucinogens like LSD and DMT (when taken in large enough doses that you're too high to be able to tell the difference) but have completely different effects on your body and brain. I'm not just trying to protect people, I'm trying to end this stupid discussion, because salvia doesn't put you into a lucid dream state, no matter how much of it you smoke.

I've experienced ego death a variety of ways, including through salvia. Ego death, by most definitions, involves a loss of your sense of self (you can't tell where "you" stop and "your environment" starts). That sense of self is required for lucidity, to remember the difference between you and your dream environment. Lucid dreaming and ego death are more opposite than alike, with the only similarities being the hallucinations.

Again, it requires years of schooling for you to be remotely qualified to prescribe mind-altering substances to people, because simply taking them (and talking your friends into it) doesn't mean you know anything about them, or how they affect people. LOL ! OMG you have no clue.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

You obviously don't know much about dissociatives like salvia and pcp, which can resemble hallucinogens like LSD and DMT (when taken in large enough doses that you're too high to be able to tell the difference) but have completely different effects on your body and brain. I'm not just trying to protect people, I'm trying to end this stupid discussion, because salvia doesn't put you into a lucid dream state, no matter how much of it you smoke.

I've experienced ego death a variety of ways, including through salvia. Ego death, by most definitions, involves a loss of your sense of self (you can't tell where "you" stop and "your environment" starts). That sense of self is required for lucidity, to remember the difference between you and your dream environment. Lucid dreaming and ego death are more opposite than alike, with the only similarities being the hallucinations.

Again, it requires years of schooling for you to be remotely qualified to prescribe mind-altering substances to people, because simply taking them (and talking your friends into it) doesn't mean you know anything about them, or how they affect people. LOL ! OMG you have no clue.

When I fall short of a breakthrough with salvia it is almost guaranteed that I will experience an unbelievably terrifying ego death, that is why I no longer us it to break through. Now I only use a little bit of regular leaf before bed as an aid.

I understand it is hard to believe until you've experienced it, I was extremely skeptical before it happened to me. When you break through, whether you use salvia or dmt, it is like a super vivid dream, not everyone is lucid every time, but most have some awareness.

I don't claim to know how salvia really affects the mind, nobody really knows at this point. I just know first hand that you can experience something very comparable to an ld with it. I'm not trying to command anyone to try these drugs, I am just being honest about my own experiences and the countless experiences of other people I have witnessed.

Sorry I came off as insulting, i get excited by this topic.

Ego death is the formal name for breaking through, they're synonyms. When you fall short of ego death (or breaking through) you have a bad trip because your sense of self is being noticeably eroded, which is scary. When your sense of self is completely gone fear goes too, but if you don't hit that point, feeling your understanding and control over your environment break down usually results in a bad trip.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Where in the world is it illegal to walk your dog, or speak to members of the opposite sex?

The place Shift already mentioned, plus a lot of beaches and parks near my area it is illegal to walk your dog there. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about now that you think about it.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

The reason Vitamin B6 is 'allowed' is that it plays a major role in aiding macronutrient metabolism, neurotransmitter synthesis, histamine synthesis, hemoglobin synthesis and function and gene expression. The illegal drugs in question have no positive effects on body functions, and are actually often harmful to your body, as is their method of ingestion. Though everything breaks down into chemical compounds, vitamins and hallucinogens are definitely not equally safe or beneficial.

Actually Vitamin supplement have been proven to increase your risk of all kinds of diseases, most notably heart failure because you get too much vitamins. Just look at b12/b6 supplements it says on the bottle like 2000% of your daily recommended intake.
Plus who says Salvia doesn't do everything vitamins do except better? We don't know yet so you can't just say they don't do anything beneficial.
B6 and b12 however may not do anything beneficial at all....
http://ezinearticles.com/?Multivitam...-Ugly&id=15318
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...=&pagewanted=2

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Here's the simple scientific reasoning why B6 is not comparable to salvia as a lucid dreaming aid:
Salvia does not induce lucid dreaming in any way
Salvia is a dissociative (its effects are much more like PCP than DMT). It blocks signals to the conscious mind from other parts of the brain. Though it induces dream-like hallucination, there is no consciousness involved, and thus no lucidity. In other words, if you think that being on salvia is like being in a lucid dream you've never experienced lucidity, because salvia produces the exact opposite effect, putting you into a LESS lucid state.

BAHAHA.snort* "snigger snigger*
Ok first of all it is nothing like PCP, at ALL!
Obviously you've never experienced Salvia.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

My point isn't "don't do drugs," and isn't even "don't do salvia" (though dissociatives and especially salvia are well known for having a higher frequency of "bad trips" than most abused drugs). My point is that you've got no business recommending mind-altering substances to people when you clearly know very little about the substances in question. It takes many years of education to understand these substances; simply experiencing them doesn't even give you the basics of what you need to know to be able to safely or responsibly recommend them to others

So you have these years of education?
It works both ways you know....
Is there a course on this? Coz' I wouldn't take it if there was.
Experience is the best teacher. You could get 'educated' for your whole life, and still know fuck all because you were taught bullshit. Why do you think there is even good, positive essays, books and stories about drugs? Because people A) tried it before it was illegal and know it's not all bad and B) heard what the government/parents/teachers told them and decided, "well, I'll see for myself before I take it as truth".

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

I've experienced ego death a variety of ways, including through salvia. Ego death, by most definitions, involves a loss of your sense of self (you can't tell where "you" stop and "your environment" starts). That sense of self is required for lucidity, to remember the difference between you and your dream environment. Lucid dreaming and ego death are more opposite than alike, with the only similarities being the hallucinations.

In Ego Death, you don't even know who you are. So you wouldn't even be able to talk about you and your environment in that way if you had actually had Ego Death. Plus a breakthrough experience is past Ego Death, if I'm not mistaken. I've never experiences this level, so I'll just have to take the majority of peoples word for it at this point.

Originally Posted by lucid4sho

I don't claim to know how salvia really affects the mind, nobody really knows at this point. I just know first hand that you can experience something very comparable to an ld with it. I'm not trying to command anyone to try these drugs, I am just being honest about my own experiences and the countless experiences of other people I have witnessed.

Originally Posted by Shift

Anyway, there is no sense in arguing about what makes the "best" LD simply because it's all subjective, people want different things out of them so "best" really doesn't mean anything. .... Nothing makes a "natural" LD better than a LD that was achieved somehow through the use of a drug, it's just your opinion that not having to use a drug is better. Unless there is scientific proof that a natural LD is clearer, or recalled better, then you can't really state that they are better. And even then, you only can if it is a better method for them to be clear and easily remembered. Maybe there is a natural LDer out there who is sick and tired of remembering their lucids, and so for them "better" means hazy and difficult to remember. I've read about stuff like that on here. Anyway, everyone define best before starting arguments. Otherwise, how do you even know what you are arguing about?

I agree, and this could also apply to Salvia and why some people get an LD at breakthrough point and others don't.
I define best as being pretty much completely in control but still having something to challenge you to make you better and to make the dream interesting. Last for a fairly long time, like more than 20 minutes. Can't think of anything else atm.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Ego death is the formal name for breaking through, they're synonyms. When you fall short of ego death (or breaking through) you have a bad trip because your sense of self is being noticeably eroded, which is scary. When your sense of self is completely gone fear goes too, but if you don't hit that point, feeling your understanding and control over your environment break down usually results in a bad trip.

Uhhhh, no. Most people who take these hallucinogens are doing it simply to experience Ego Death, therefore it wouldn't be terrifying, quite the contrary actually. It would be exciting!

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Ego death is the formal name for breaking through, they're synonyms. When you fall short of ego death (or breaking through) you have a bad trip because your sense of self is being noticeably eroded, which is scary. When your sense of self is completely gone fear goes too, but if you don't hit that point, feeling your understanding and control over your environment break down usually results in a bad trip.

I've read countless books on dmt and the term breakthrough is always used to describe reaching the 'dream' state with salvia or dmt. Try reading some mckenna for a good description of what you can potentially experience past the point of breakthrough. Heres a decent random link describing the difference. http://www.lycaeum.org/drugs.old/oth...gandz.dmt.html

Whether its salvinorin or dmt, I usually can reach the dream state with a single massive hit of pure crystals from a freebase pipe, but if I exhale my hit and am not instantly transported, then I try to take another hit asap, which is not always possible if I am too disoriented already. Rarely I will spontaneously lose awareness and afterwards it feels like I am waking up from general anesthesia. Sometimes its possible to still feel ego loss after I breakthrough, but it is no where near as frightening as when I don't.

If I don't manage to reach the dream state, I will have to watch my world and ego torn apart, especially with salvia. When I do reach the dream state, whether its with salvia or dmt, the results are the exact same. I'm suddenly in a very vivid dream world and am fully aware that I just smoked a drug. The experience varies a lot, sometimes its unbelievable out of this world type stuff, and other times its more just like a typical ld and I am walking around a place that resembles earth. Also my degree of lucidity varies.

One thing to note is that it is extremely difficult to breakthrough more than once in a day. Also if you attempt it and fail, you should wait 24 hours before attempting it again or it will be really difficult.

I'm glad you are concerned about people but its not helping anyone to provide misinformation. Do a lot more reading and maybe get some more first hand experience so you can properly discuss this topic.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Where in the world is it illegal to walk your dog, or speak to members of the opposite sex? Are these practices outlawed for public safety like the use of the drugs we're discussing, or due to social/cultural conventions? Considering that you're criticizing others for using faulty reasoning, your post is fairly hypocritical.

Why can't I make the argument that LDing the 'natural' way is best? My goal is to have as much control over my body as possible without being dependent on the aid of foreign substances. I don't think it's a wise tradeoff to make it easier for yourself to gain lucidity at the cost of becoming dependent on substances, when you could put a bit more effort in and be able to LD without needing external aid.

The reason Vitamin B6 is 'allowed' is that it plays a major role in aiding macronutrient metabolism, neurotransmitter synthesis, histamine synthesis, hemoglobin synthesis and function and gene expression. The illegal drugs in question have no positive effects on body functions, and are actually often harmful to your body, as is their method of ingestion. Though everything breaks down into chemical compounds, vitamins and hallucinogens are definitely not equally safe or beneficial.

Here's the simple scientific reasoning why B6 is not comparable to salvia as a lucid dreaming aid:
Salvia does not induce lucid dreaming in any way
Salvia is a dissociative (its effects are much more like PCP than DMT). It blocks signals to the conscious mind from other parts of the brain. Though it induces dream-like hallucination, there is no consciousness involved, and thus no lucidity. In other words, if you think that being on salvia is like being in a lucid dream you've never experienced lucidity, because salvia produces the exact opposite effect, putting you into a LESS lucid state.

My point isn't "don't do drugs," and isn't even "don't do salvia" (though dissociatives and especially salvia are well known for having a higher frequency of "bad trips" than most abused drugs). My point is that you've got no business recommending mind-altering substances to people when you clearly know very little about the substances in question. It takes many years of education to understand these substances; simply experiencing them doesn't even give you the basics of what you need to know to be able to safely or responsibly recommend them to others

Well first of all I'm not recommending mind-altering substances, I don't even drink. I'm talking about arguing about what sort of LD is better and not actually saying anything except that "X is better!" Forums are for discussions, so people should post in depth so that we can discuss and not just have shallow arguments. If I'm gonna remain subscribed to this post then I hope more people post like you did, so that there is actual value to reading the debates going on.

Anyway, there is no sense in arguing about what makes the "best" LD simply because it's all subjective, people want different things out of them so "best" really doesn't mean anything. But your post is what I am talking about, thorough responses that include scientific information versus simple opinions that people post as statements. Even then I'm not sure how accurate your info is, but at least you are trying to support your statements. Nothing makes a "natural" LD better than a LD that was achieved somehow through the use of a drug, it's just your opinion that not having to use a drug is better. Unless there is scientific proof that a natural LD is clearer, or recalled better, then you can't really state that they are better. And even then, you only can if it is a better method for them to be clear and easily remembered. Maybe there is a natural LDer out there who is sick and tired of remembering their lucids, and so for them "better" means hazy and difficult to remember. I've read about stuff like that on here. Anyway, everyone define best before starting arguments. Otherwise, how do you even know what you are arguing about?

Dog-walking has been outlawed in public in parts of Saudi Arabia by the religious police who don't want men using their dogs as a reason to speak with women... or so they news has been reporting. I don't just make this stuff up, at the very least someone else does it for me. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=93138643

But just because this is a socio/cultural convention doesn't mean anything. During prohibition, some people continued to drink and others criticized and incarcerated those people for drinking. Why? Mainly because they were blinded by religion and/or government (and sometimes these are the same thing). But scientists keep scientifically supporting the notion that alcohol (in moderate amounts) can actually be good for you http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/alcohol/SC00024 . Just because things are outlawed doesn't mean that they are harmful (in either excessive or moderate amounts), and vice versa. So my point in bringing that up is that people should question laws, and find the true reason for why things are illegal. I'm also trying to point it out that it is important to not just assume that because there is a law against something, it is bad. Sometimes "good" things or the "right" things are outlawed.

So the whole point of my getting involved in this thread is to ask people to support their statements, hopefully linking to scientific articles, or at least to elaborate.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Where in the world is it illegal to walk your dog, or speak to members of the opposite sex? Are these practices outlawed for public safety like the use of the drugs we're discussing, or due to social/cultural conventions?

Please... public safety? When was the last time someone on salvia killed someone? The laws have nothing to do with public safety (ask alcohol if you don't believe me) and drugs ARE illegal due to social/cultural conventions. Way back when Europeans came to the New World Indians were looked down upon as savages. Europeans, especially Catholics, condemned the herbs and spices Indians used in their rituals as witchcraft and "communicating with demons." That's where the stereotype of "psychedelics are bad" originated. Besides, why should even dangerous drugs be outlawed? The way I see it if someone is stupid enough to try heroin and then get addicted then good riddance they made their choice already.

I agree that salvia definitely does not create a lucid state, but I think if everyone tried salvia responsibly only once it would humble them greatly. Also the use of salvia is what got me interested in the consciousness of the mind and eventually LDing.