Thread: foolproof Instant WILD anytime ...

Meh, your entire brain is made up of chemicals. There's some food for thought.

Listen to SKA and go bitch in your own thread.

Snowy Egypt - Just like you aren't going to 'convert' so to speak. We aren't going to either. Can't you see how ignorant you are? Not just about drugs.
And it's not a 'religion' per se, just a choice.

In fact, I'm going to make my own thread so you bitches can bitch in your own thread about how we all fuck our brains up like a bitch and don't achieve 'natural' LD's and we suck ass at LD'ing and we are bitches to drugs. See how long that can last and how much you have to talk about. "Drugs are bad for you" "yeh" "yeh" "no shit" "yeh" "true" "stoners suck" "yeh" "i agree"........ etc.

SKA - Did the Salvia have any effect on your dreaming that night? Please tell us how it goes if you do the chewing method.
I seem to remember a thread about this a while back but none of us ever got around to experimenting lol

Originally Posted by tommo

Meh, your entire brain is made up of chemicals. There's some food for thought.

Yea seriously, nearly everything is made up of chemicals, and pretty much everything that isn't is related in some way to chemicals or parts of chemicals.

Guys if you are gonna complain about drugs, use specific reasons. Don't say things are bad for you just because your government happened to outlaw them (which is irrelevant, in some places it's illegal to walk your dog or for men and women to speak to one another), or because you do not do them. And you can't just say that LDing the "natural" way is better than using any sort of supplement, especially if you haven't ever tried it enough times to actually know for yourself. You can't make generalizations and say taking salvia is worse than LDing naturally, but that it is ok to take B6 supplements, because what if someone eats a lot of peanut butter and jelly, so they end up eating a ton of niacin every day? As opposed to someone who only eats peanut butter once a week, or not at all, and doesn't eat nearly as much niacin. I mean, where do you draw the line? They are all chemical compounds that you are putting into your body. Why say one is better than the other? If you are going to, give actual scientific reasons.

Originally Posted by Shift

Guys if you are gonna complain about drugs, use specific reasons. Don't say things are bad for you just because your government happened to outlaw them (which is irrelevant, in some places it's illegal to walk your dog or for men and women to speak to one another), or because you do not do them. And you can't just say that LDing the "natural" way is better than using any sort of supplement, especially if you haven't ever tried it enough times to actually know for yourself. You can't make generalizations and say taking salvia is worse than LDing naturally, but that it is ok to take B6 supplements, because what if someone eats a lot of peanut butter and jelly, so they end up eating a ton of niacin every day? As opposed to someone who only eats peanut butter once a week, or not at all, and doesn't eat nearly as much niacin. I mean, where do you draw the line? They are all chemical compounds that you are putting into your body. Why say one is better than the other? If you are going to, give actual scientific reasons.

Where in the world is it illegal to walk your dog, or speak to members of the opposite sex? Are these practices outlawed for public safety like the use of the drugs we're discussing, or due to social/cultural conventions? Considering that you're criticizing others for using faulty reasoning, your post is fairly hypocritical.

Why can't I make the argument that LDing the 'natural' way is best? My goal is to have as much control over my body as possible without being dependent on the aid of foreign substances. I don't think it's a wise tradeoff to make it easier for yourself to gain lucidity at the cost of becoming dependent on substances, when you could put a bit more effort in and be able to LD without needing external aid.

The reason Vitamin B6 is 'allowed' is that it plays a major role in aiding macronutrient metabolism, neurotransmitter synthesis, histamine synthesis, hemoglobin synthesis and function and gene expression. The illegal drugs in question have no positive effects on body functions, and are actually often harmful to your body, as is their method of ingestion. Though everything breaks down into chemical compounds, vitamins and hallucinogens are definitely not equally safe or beneficial.

Here's the simple scientific reasoning why B6 is not comparable to salvia as a lucid dreaming aid:
Salvia does not induce lucid dreaming in any way
Salvia is a dissociative (its effects are much more like PCP than DMT). It blocks signals to the conscious mind from other parts of the brain. Though it induces dream-like hallucination, there is no consciousness involved, and thus no lucidity. In other words, if you think that being on salvia is like being in a lucid dream you've never experienced lucidity, because salvia produces the exact opposite effect, putting you into a LESS lucid state.

My point isn't "don't do drugs," and isn't even "don't do salvia" (though dissociatives and especially salvia are well known for having a higher frequency of "bad trips" than most abused drugs). My point is that you've got no business recommending mind-altering substances to people when you clearly know very little about the substances in question. It takes many years of education to understand these substances; simply experiencing them doesn't even give you the basics of what you need to know to be able to safely or responsibly recommend them to others

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Salvia does not induce lucid dreaming in any way
Salvia is a dissociative (its effects are much more like PCP than DMT). It blocks signals to the conscious mind from other parts of the brain. Though it induces dream-like hallucination, there is no consciousness involved, and thus no lucidity. In other words, if you think that being on salvia is like being in a lucid dream you've never experienced lucidity, because salvia produces the exact opposite effect, putting you into a LESS lucid state.

LOL ! OMG you have no clue. Clearly you've never smoked enough salvinorin or dmt to reach breakthrough. Past the point of breakthrough the effects of salvia and dmt are identical for most people. When I smoke pure salvinorin-a and dmt crystals to the point of breakthrough I experience 'dreams' in perfect detail with complete lucidity, more real than my average ld.

If you fall short of breakthrough with salvia, its often unpleasant, but with dmt its usually still enjoyable. So I prefer dmt because there is less risk of a bad experience if you don't breakthrough. It is nearly impossible to breakthrough on most salvia extracts because they are not pure enough, unless you combine an maoi, which I definitely don't recommend. So you need pure crystals and a crack style pipe. The only reliable source for crystals I know of is ethnogarden.

Most people have at least partial lucidity during a breakthrough, but the level of awareness depends on the person.

I understand you are trying to protect people, but these substances are very short acting and have a very low toxicity, as long as people are smart and use a baby sitter its not very risky. The majority of people I introduce to these substances never use them more than once or twice because of the intensity of the experience, whether they reach breakthrough or not, but even though they don't want to do it again, most people admit it was a great learning experience.

Originally Posted by lucid4sho

LOL ! OMG you have no clue. Clearly you've never smoked enough salvinorin or dmt to reach breakthrough. Past the point of breakthrough the effects of salvia and dmt are identical for most people. When I smoke pure salvinorin-a and dmt crystals to the point of breakthrough I experience 'dreams' in perfect detail with complete lucidity, more real than my average ld.

If you fall short of breakthrough with salvia, its often unpleasant, but with dmt its usually still enjoyable. So I prefer dmt because there is less risk of a bad experience if you don't breakthrough. It is nearly impossible to breakthrough on most salvia extracts because they are not pure enough, unless you combine an maoi, which I definitely don't recommend. So you need pure crystals and a crack style pipe. The only reliable source for crystals I know of is ethnogarden.

Most people have at least partial lucidity during a breakthrough, but the level of awareness depends on the person.

I understand you are trying to protect people, but these substances are very short acting and have a very low toxicity, as long as people are smart and use a baby sitter its not very risky. The majority of people I introduce to these substances never use them more than once or twice because of the intensity of the experience, whether they reach breakthrough or not, but even though they don't want to do it again, most people admit it was a great learning experience.

You obviously don't know much about dissociatives like salvia and pcp, which can resemble hallucinogens like LSD and DMT (when taken in large enough doses that you're too high to be able to tell the difference) but have completely different effects on your body and brain. I'm not just trying to protect people, I'm trying to end this stupid discussion, because salvia doesn't put you into a lucid dream state, no matter how much of it you smoke.

I've experienced ego death a variety of ways, including through salvia. Ego death, by most definitions, involves a loss of your sense of self (you can't tell where "you" stop and "your environment" starts). That sense of self is required for lucidity, to remember the difference between you and your dream environment. Lucid dreaming and ego death are more opposite than alike, with the only similarities being the hallucinations.

Again, it requires years of schooling for you to be remotely qualified to prescribe mind-altering substances to people, because simply taking them (and talking your friends into it) doesn't mean you know anything about them, or how they affect people. LOL ! OMG you have no clue.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Where in the world is it illegal to walk your dog, or speak to members of the opposite sex? Are these practices outlawed for public safety like the use of the drugs we're discussing, or due to social/cultural conventions? Considering that you're criticizing others for using faulty reasoning, your post is fairly hypocritical.

Why can't I make the argument that LDing the 'natural' way is best? My goal is to have as much control over my body as possible without being dependent on the aid of foreign substances. I don't think it's a wise tradeoff to make it easier for yourself to gain lucidity at the cost of becoming dependent on substances, when you could put a bit more effort in and be able to LD without needing external aid.

The reason Vitamin B6 is 'allowed' is that it plays a major role in aiding macronutrient metabolism, neurotransmitter synthesis, histamine synthesis, hemoglobin synthesis and function and gene expression. The illegal drugs in question have no positive effects on body functions, and are actually often harmful to your body, as is their method of ingestion. Though everything breaks down into chemical compounds, vitamins and hallucinogens are definitely not equally safe or beneficial.

Here's the simple scientific reasoning why B6 is not comparable to salvia as a lucid dreaming aid:
Salvia does not induce lucid dreaming in any way
Salvia is a dissociative (its effects are much more like PCP than DMT). It blocks signals to the conscious mind from other parts of the brain. Though it induces dream-like hallucination, there is no consciousness involved, and thus no lucidity. In other words, if you think that being on salvia is like being in a lucid dream you've never experienced lucidity, because salvia produces the exact opposite effect, putting you into a LESS lucid state.

My point isn't "don't do drugs," and isn't even "don't do salvia" (though dissociatives and especially salvia are well known for having a higher frequency of "bad trips" than most abused drugs). My point is that you've got no business recommending mind-altering substances to people when you clearly know very little about the substances in question. It takes many years of education to understand these substances; simply experiencing them doesn't even give you the basics of what you need to know to be able to safely or responsibly recommend them to others

Well first of all I'm not recommending mind-altering substances, I don't even drink. I'm talking about arguing about what sort of LD is better and not actually saying anything except that "X is better!" Forums are for discussions, so people should post in depth so that we can discuss and not just have shallow arguments. If I'm gonna remain subscribed to this post then I hope more people post like you did, so that there is actual value to reading the debates going on.

Anyway, there is no sense in arguing about what makes the "best" LD simply because it's all subjective, people want different things out of them so "best" really doesn't mean anything. But your post is what I am talking about, thorough responses that include scientific information versus simple opinions that people post as statements. Even then I'm not sure how accurate your info is, but at least you are trying to support your statements. Nothing makes a "natural" LD better than a LD that was achieved somehow through the use of a drug, it's just your opinion that not having to use a drug is better. Unless there is scientific proof that a natural LD is clearer, or recalled better, then you can't really state that they are better. And even then, you only can if it is a better method for them to be clear and easily remembered. Maybe there is a natural LDer out there who is sick and tired of remembering their lucids, and so for them "better" means hazy and difficult to remember. I've read about stuff like that on here. Anyway, everyone define best before starting arguments. Otherwise, how do you even know what you are arguing about?

Dog-walking has been outlawed in public in parts of Saudi Arabia by the religious police who don't want men using their dogs as a reason to speak with women... or so they news has been reporting. I don't just make this stuff up, at the very least someone else does it for me. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=93138643

But just because this is a socio/cultural convention doesn't mean anything. During prohibition, some people continued to drink and others criticized and incarcerated those people for drinking. Why? Mainly because they were blinded by religion and/or government (and sometimes these are the same thing). But scientists keep scientifically supporting the notion that alcohol (in moderate amounts) can actually be good for you http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/alcohol/SC00024 . Just because things are outlawed doesn't mean that they are harmful (in either excessive or moderate amounts), and vice versa. So my point in bringing that up is that people should question laws, and find the true reason for why things are illegal. I'm also trying to point it out that it is important to not just assume that because there is a law against something, it is bad. Sometimes "good" things or the "right" things are outlawed.

So the whole point of my getting involved in this thread is to ask people to support their statements, hopefully linking to scientific articles, or at least to elaborate.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

You obviously don't know much about dissociatives like salvia and pcp, which can resemble hallucinogens like LSD and DMT (when taken in large enough doses that you're too high to be able to tell the difference) but have completely different effects on your body and brain. I'm not just trying to protect people, I'm trying to end this stupid discussion, because salvia doesn't put you into a lucid dream state, no matter how much of it you smoke.

I've experienced ego death a variety of ways, including through salvia. Ego death, by most definitions, involves a loss of your sense of self (you can't tell where "you" stop and "your environment" starts). That sense of self is required for lucidity, to remember the difference between you and your dream environment. Lucid dreaming and ego death are more opposite than alike, with the only similarities being the hallucinations.

Again, it requires years of schooling for you to be remotely qualified to prescribe mind-altering substances to people, because simply taking them (and talking your friends into it) doesn't mean you know anything about them, or how they affect people. LOL ! OMG you have no clue.

When I fall short of a breakthrough with salvia it is almost guaranteed that I will experience an unbelievably terrifying ego death, that is why I no longer us it to break through. Now I only use a little bit of regular leaf before bed as an aid.

I understand it is hard to believe until you've experienced it, I was extremely skeptical before it happened to me. When you break through, whether you use salvia or dmt, it is like a super vivid dream, not everyone is lucid every time, but most have some awareness.

I don't claim to know how salvia really affects the mind, nobody really knows at this point. I just know first hand that you can experience something very comparable to an ld with it. I'm not trying to command anyone to try these drugs, I am just being honest about my own experiences and the countless experiences of other people I have witnessed.

Sorry I came off as insulting, i get excited by this topic.

Ego death is the formal name for breaking through, they're synonyms. When you fall short of ego death (or breaking through) you have a bad trip because your sense of self is being noticeably eroded, which is scary. When your sense of self is completely gone fear goes too, but if you don't hit that point, feeling your understanding and control over your environment break down usually results in a bad trip.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Where in the world is it illegal to walk your dog, or speak to members of the opposite sex?

The place Shift already mentioned, plus a lot of beaches and parks near my area it is illegal to walk your dog there. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about now that you think about it.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

The reason Vitamin B6 is 'allowed' is that it plays a major role in aiding macronutrient metabolism, neurotransmitter synthesis, histamine synthesis, hemoglobin synthesis and function and gene expression. The illegal drugs in question have no positive effects on body functions, and are actually often harmful to your body, as is their method of ingestion. Though everything breaks down into chemical compounds, vitamins and hallucinogens are definitely not equally safe or beneficial.

Actually Vitamin supplement have been proven to increase your risk of all kinds of diseases, most notably heart failure because you get too much vitamins. Just look at b12/b6 supplements it says on the bottle like 2000% of your daily recommended intake.
Plus who says Salvia doesn't do everything vitamins do except better? We don't know yet so you can't just say they don't do anything beneficial.
B6 and b12 however may not do anything beneficial at all....
http://ezinearticles.com/?Multivitam...-Ugly&id=15318
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...=&pagewanted=2

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Here's the simple scientific reasoning why B6 is not comparable to salvia as a lucid dreaming aid:
Salvia does not induce lucid dreaming in any way
Salvia is a dissociative (its effects are much more like PCP than DMT). It blocks signals to the conscious mind from other parts of the brain. Though it induces dream-like hallucination, there is no consciousness involved, and thus no lucidity. In other words, if you think that being on salvia is like being in a lucid dream you've never experienced lucidity, because salvia produces the exact opposite effect, putting you into a LESS lucid state.

BAHAHA.snort* "snigger snigger*
Ok first of all it is nothing like PCP, at ALL!
Obviously you've never experienced Salvia.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

My point isn't "don't do drugs," and isn't even "don't do salvia" (though dissociatives and especially salvia are well known for having a higher frequency of "bad trips" than most abused drugs). My point is that you've got no business recommending mind-altering substances to people when you clearly know very little about the substances in question. It takes many years of education to understand these substances; simply experiencing them doesn't even give you the basics of what you need to know to be able to safely or responsibly recommend them to others

So you have these years of education?
It works both ways you know....
Is there a course on this? Coz' I wouldn't take it if there was.
Experience is the best teacher. You could get 'educated' for your whole life, and still know fuck all because you were taught bullshit. Why do you think there is even good, positive essays, books and stories about drugs? Because people A) tried it before it was illegal and know it's not all bad and B) heard what the government/parents/teachers told them and decided, "well, I'll see for myself before I take it as truth".

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

I've experienced ego death a variety of ways, including through salvia. Ego death, by most definitions, involves a loss of your sense of self (you can't tell where "you" stop and "your environment" starts). That sense of self is required for lucidity, to remember the difference between you and your dream environment. Lucid dreaming and ego death are more opposite than alike, with the only similarities being the hallucinations.

In Ego Death, you don't even know who you are. So you wouldn't even be able to talk about you and your environment in that way if you had actually had Ego Death. Plus a breakthrough experience is past Ego Death, if I'm not mistaken. I've never experiences this level, so I'll just have to take the majority of peoples word for it at this point.

Originally Posted by lucid4sho

I don't claim to know how salvia really affects the mind, nobody really knows at this point. I just know first hand that you can experience something very comparable to an ld with it. I'm not trying to command anyone to try these drugs, I am just being honest about my own experiences and the countless experiences of other people I have witnessed.

Originally Posted by Shift

Anyway, there is no sense in arguing about what makes the "best" LD simply because it's all subjective, people want different things out of them so "best" really doesn't mean anything. .... Nothing makes a "natural" LD better than a LD that was achieved somehow through the use of a drug, it's just your opinion that not having to use a drug is better. Unless there is scientific proof that a natural LD is clearer, or recalled better, then you can't really state that they are better. And even then, you only can if it is a better method for them to be clear and easily remembered. Maybe there is a natural LDer out there who is sick and tired of remembering their lucids, and so for them "better" means hazy and difficult to remember. I've read about stuff like that on here. Anyway, everyone define best before starting arguments. Otherwise, how do you even know what you are arguing about?

I agree, and this could also apply to Salvia and why some people get an LD at breakthrough point and others don't.
I define best as being pretty much completely in control but still having something to challenge you to make you better and to make the dream interesting. Last for a fairly long time, like more than 20 minutes. Can't think of anything else atm.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Ego death is the formal name for breaking through, they're synonyms. When you fall short of ego death (or breaking through) you have a bad trip because your sense of self is being noticeably eroded, which is scary. When your sense of self is completely gone fear goes too, but if you don't hit that point, feeling your understanding and control over your environment break down usually results in a bad trip.

Uhhhh, no. Most people who take these hallucinogens are doing it simply to experience Ego Death, therefore it wouldn't be terrifying, quite the contrary actually. It would be exciting!

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Ego death is the formal name for breaking through, they're synonyms. When you fall short of ego death (or breaking through) you have a bad trip because your sense of self is being noticeably eroded, which is scary. When your sense of self is completely gone fear goes too, but if you don't hit that point, feeling your understanding and control over your environment break down usually results in a bad trip.

I've read countless books on dmt and the term breakthrough is always used to describe reaching the 'dream' state with salvia or dmt. Try reading some mckenna for a good description of what you can potentially experience past the point of breakthrough. Heres a decent random link describing the difference. http://www.lycaeum.org/drugs.old/oth...gandz.dmt.html

Whether its salvinorin or dmt, I usually can reach the dream state with a single massive hit of pure crystals from a freebase pipe, but if I exhale my hit and am not instantly transported, then I try to take another hit asap, which is not always possible if I am too disoriented already. Rarely I will spontaneously lose awareness and afterwards it feels like I am waking up from general anesthesia. Sometimes its possible to still feel ego loss after I breakthrough, but it is no where near as frightening as when I don't.

If I don't manage to reach the dream state, I will have to watch my world and ego torn apart, especially with salvia. When I do reach the dream state, whether its with salvia or dmt, the results are the exact same. I'm suddenly in a very vivid dream world and am fully aware that I just smoked a drug. The experience varies a lot, sometimes its unbelievable out of this world type stuff, and other times its more just like a typical ld and I am walking around a place that resembles earth. Also my degree of lucidity varies.

One thing to note is that it is extremely difficult to breakthrough more than once in a day. Also if you attempt it and fail, you should wait 24 hours before attempting it again or it will be really difficult.

I'm glad you are concerned about people but its not helping anyone to provide misinformation. Do a lot more reading and maybe get some more first hand experience so you can properly discuss this topic.

http://www.talesfromtheotherside.com...alvia-art1.JPG

Originally Posted by Snowy Egypt

I didn't say it was unnatural, I said having an LD without any drug is the best LD. And maybe I want to "close myself up for great experiences". If it makes me happy, then that's what matters to me. Divine powers my butt. The more you talk to me and say I'm missing out, the more I'm going to think of you like a person who pushes Religion on a non-religious person.

Take you "Divine" drugs for all I care. I'll stay happy without drugs, and have my LDs through practice and patience while being "ignorant".

Off course I am "trying to convert you" to my point of View. I'm showing you my Point of view, just as much as you're showing me your point of view and try to "convert me" to it. Isn't it what they call discussion? It could be me, but isn't that the reason that people are on discussion boards?

no need to get offended. Divine powers may be bullshit to someone who has never experienced them. Doesn't mean it is all gibberish and hocus-pocus nonsense. Im indeed telling you that you are missing out on alot, wether you would like it or not. It is like this: imagine having found a tunnel in an old deserted, disconnected metrotube. You follow it and it leads to a bright vortex-gate which ends up in another world full of unimaginable beings and sceneries. A very exquisite world. Overwhelming, Beautyfull, Full of wonder, sometimes even a littlebit too overwhelming and humbling. You could safely say that, allthough such a world is not a desirable place for everyone, everyone who doesn't know it and has never been there is indeed missing out on quite a bit, wouldn't you agree?

Originally Posted by lucid4sho

I'm glad you are concerned about people but its not helping anyone to provide misinformation. Do a lot more reading and maybe get some more first hand experience so you can properly discuss this topic.

It's funny, that's the same advice I'd give you. I can understand how you and tommo might think high doses of dissociatives (like salvia, PCP) put you in the same place as high doses of hallucinogens (like DMT, LSD) if you've only had the 'first hand experience' without the medical/pharmaceutical training that encompasses the 'other half' of understanding how these drugs affect you, but the differences greatly outnumber the few similarities.

I'm not sure exactly what you felt was misinformation in my post, since you didn't directly address that, but I'm not surprised that the 'countless' books you've read have referred to ego death as 'breakthrough,' because that use of informal diction says something I already suspected about the quality of your reference material.

But we can sit and argue about who's more qualified, who's reading credible sources, and who's 'had the experience,' all day without getting anywhere, so let's get back to the subject at hand. To paraphrase my last post, for the purposes of our discussion on the topic, when I refer to 'ego death' I'm referring to the thing that happens after you break through, which involves dream-like hallucinations, and a loss of your sense of self, resulting in a merging of 'you' and 'your environment.'

Additionally, you might be surprised that the 'come up' from smoking salvia vs pure salvinorin is as different in my experience as that of weed to pure thc.

What is real? If you can smell, touch, hear, see and taste does that make it real? All you really sense is what your brain interprets as a sense from an electrical signal. Where do these signals come from? If we can only see an interpretation of reality then who is to say that we know what real is at all. Could it be possible drug trips, dreaming, obe's, astral recall or anything of this nature is just another interpretation of real. You wouldn't read just one book of all the books in the world and come up with an interpretation of human civilization based on one view. The fact is we just don't know.

Originally Posted by alfy984

What is real? If you can smell, touch, hear, see and taste does that make it real? All you really sense is what your brain interprets as a sense from an electrical signal. Where do these signals come from? If we can only see an interpretation of reality then who is to say that we know what real is at all. Could it be possible drug trips, dreaming, obe's, astral recall or anything of this nature is just another interpretation of real. You wouldn't read just one book of all the books in the world and come up with an interpretation of human civilization based on one view. The fact is we just don't know.

This is going to be a long post, but your initial question requires a long answer.

IMO we DO know what's real, because concepts like 'real' and 'imaginary' are human creations, born of our need to find a 'common ground' in our experiences. To this end, we've developed the rules of logic and the scientific method as the general consensus of what defines 'real.' If the experience can be reliably reproduced with evidence, and follows logic, then it's real.

Because the point of the concept of reality is finding a foundation for mutual understanding (common ground), the only definition of reality that matters is the one that follows the general consensus. So, the fact that you can intentionally alter your personal definition of reality, or interpret reality differently than someone else, is irrelevant, because doing so is simply deteriorating your ability to communicate your experiences.

This is all fairly 'out there,' so maybe an example will make my point slightly clearer. If you say you can become invisible to the human eye as long as no one's watching, your powers of invisibility are imaginary. That doesn't mean you're not telling the truth. It just means that you've got no way to prove or demonstrate your ability, so we've got no common ground with which to evaluate the experience.

Or, for a more relevant example, let's take our current discussion. When you break through on salvia, you may experience the exact same phenomenon that occurs when you achieve dream lucidity, or when you have high doses of DMT. But you've got absolutely no way to prove that to anyone else, and the only reproducible evidence of these events shows drastic physiological differences between them. So, I can conclude that your altered mental state is having an effect on your ability to differentiate between these experiences, and you can conclude that they're the same experience, but the bottom line is that for the purpose of communicating these events, their similarity is imaginary, because the only common ground is proof of their dissimilarity.

Everyone interested in ego death/breaking through, lucid dreaming, philosophy, or even physics eventually asks, "What is reality?" My conclusion, which formed the basis of this post, is that individual reality doesn't exist. There is only individual experience, and 'reality' is the general consensus of the common ground in those experiences, as defined by accepted rules.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

It's funny, that's the same advice I'd give you. I can understand how you and tommo might think high doses of dissociatives (like salvia, PCP) put you in the same place as high doses of hallucinogens (like DMT, LSD) if you've only had the 'first hand experience' without the medical/pharmaceutical training that encompasses the 'other half' of understanding how these drugs affect you, but the differences greatly outnumber the few similarities.

I'm not sure exactly what you felt was misinformation in my post, since you didn't directly address that, but I'm not surprised that the 'countless' books you've read have referred to ego death as 'breakthrough,' because that use of informal diction says something I already suspected about the quality of your reference material.

But we can sit and argue about who's more qualified, who's reading credible sources, and who's 'had the experience,' all day without getting anywhere, so let's get back to the subject at hand. To paraphrase my last post, for the purposes of our discussion on the topic, when I refer to 'ego death' I'm referring to the thing that happens after you break through, which involves dream-like hallucinations, and a loss of your sense of self, resulting in a merging of 'you' and 'your environment.'

Additionally, you might be surprised that the 'come up' from smoking salvia vs pure salvinorin is as different in my experience as that of weed to pure thc.

I'm glad you are admitting that dream like hallucination is part of breaking through, thats all I'm saying. When some people breakthrough they may still experience ego death along with a vivid dream, that is not the case for me and many others, I usually just get the dream with normal perception.

Theres plenty of people and writings supporting what I've said, anyone who spends a minute researching will see I am truthful.
I'm not saying all the info in every book is accurate, but they are still informative. try
http://www.lycaeum.org/books/plantsc...strassdmt.html

Neither of us can claim to really understand salvinorin, especially because it is not an alkaloid and its action in the body is not yet fully understood.

I agree normal salvia extracts are completely different from pure salvinorin, i tried to emphasize that so people understand that its nearly impossible to break through without pure salvinorin and it really helps to have a freebase pipe.

When you are trying to WILD and you experience SP, it can be very scary and disorientating, you can see and hear hallucinations, and you may get a sense of detachment. Yet when you get past SP into the dream, it is usually peaceful and your perception returns to near normal.

For me that is exactly the way salvinorin and dmt work. When I fall short of a breakthrough it is very comparable to SP, i hear crazy sounds, see bizzare visions, feel terrifying sensations, and my perception is extremely disoriented and detached, especially with salvinorin. Yet when I break through it is more like a very vivid LD. Salvinorin and dmt both do this, the main perceivable difference is the SP type effects from salvinorin are typically more frightening and unpleasent than from dmt.

Really it is not a short cut to LDing because it seems that only people who are already skilled at LDing are good at being lucid during the breakthrough, the average person is likely to forget most of the experience.

I've said since my first post in this thread that the dream-like hallucinations are what make salvia trips and lucid dreaming similar, that wasn't a new admission.

In fact, nothing I'm saying is new at this point. To reiterate my previous posts:
If you're not experiencing ego death, you're not breaking through completely, because 'breaking through' is the informal term for the process of achieving ego death. What you describe in your post sounds to me like a typical non-breakthrough salvia trip, though I wasn't clear on whether you were saying you were able to control your trip reality like one can with the lucid dream reality.

Salvia isn't a shortcut to LDing because LDing isn't the same thing as tripping on salvia. The two experiences involve different brain-wave states, and different parts of your brain being activated/shut down.

Finally, it's entirely possible to break through without pure salvinorin, or even salvia extract. It's all a matter of bowl size and flame intensity. But it's definitely impossible if you're smoking like you would smoke marijuana.

Maybe its impossible for you to reach something similar to an LD with salvia, but I'm not the only one who can.

Not much is known about how salvia works other than that its a kappa opioid receptor agonist. Here is a few links discussing the possibility that salvia can induce a REM like state:

"Although the mechanism of action is not fully understood,
it is said to result in REM activity while still awake." Lisa Booze, PharmD, CSPI
http://www.umaryland.edu/bin/g/w/July2003tidbits.pdf

"Its leaves contain a hallucinogenic compound unlike any other. Its properties are more rightly classified as oneirogenic (dream-inducing), as it induces an involuntary state similar to REM sleep. " http://tryptamind.com/salvia_divinorum.html

"In summary, salvinorine may induce short REM episodes while awake and so literally kick the experimenter all of a sudden directly into a random oneiric scene" http://www.shaman-australis.com/~claude/salvia2.html

"Salvia divinorum thus seems to activate neuronal systems which are
triggered when one enters the REM phase of sleep."
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Salvia...ce/message/322

If you could show me some convincing studies concluding that salvinorin-a cannot induce anything remotely similar to REM then I'd give you some credit.
It may not be identical to REM, but there appears to be similarities.

Originally Posted by lucid4sho

Maybe its impossible for you to reach something similar to an LD with salvia, but I'm not the only one who can.

Not much is known about how salvia works other than that its a kappa opioid receptor agonist. Here is a few links discussing the possibility that salvia can induce a REM like state:

"Although the mechanism of action is not fully understood,
it is said to result in REM activity while still awake." Lisa Booze, PharmD, CSPI
http://www.umaryland.edu/bin/g/w/July2003tidbits.pdf

"Its leaves contain a hallucinogenic compound unlike any other. Its properties are more rightly classified as oneirogenic (dream-inducing), as it induces an involuntary state similar to REM sleep. " http://tryptamind.com/salvia_divinorum.html

"In summary, salvinorine may induce short REM episodes while awake and so literally kick the experimenter all of a sudden directly into a random oneiric scene" http://www.shaman-australis.com/~claude/salvia2.html

"Salvia divinorum thus seems to activate neuronal systems which are
triggered when one enters the REM phase of sleep."
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Salvia...ce/message/322

If you could show me some convincing studies concluding that salvinorin-a cannot induce anything remotely similar to REM then I'd give you some credit.
It may not be identical to REM, but there appears to be similarities.

If you could show me some convincing studies concluding that salvinorin-a can induce anything remotely similar to REM then I'd give you some credit (If we're going down this path, the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim, not the person debating it). But again, no one's debating that a salvia trip can have similarities to dreaming (specifically, hallucinations). That doesn't mean it causes lucid dreams, or is connected to them in any way.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

If you could show me some convincing studies concluding that salvinorin-a can induce anything remotely similar to REM then I'd give you some credit (If we're going down this path, the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim, not the person debating it). But again, no one's debating that a salvia trip can have similarities to dreaming (specifically, hallucinations). That doesn't mean it causes lucid dreams, or is connected to them in any way.

Whether or not salvia can induce a state measurably comparable to REM I have not claimed to know, but you insist to know for a fact that it can't, but haven't provided any evidence.

From experience I can say that for me salvia can produce something perceivably near identical to an LD. You claim to know that this is impossible, but again have no evidence.

You are making unsupported claims, not me.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Finally, it's entirely possible to break through without pure salvinorin, or even salvia extract. It's all a matter of bowl size and flame intensity. But it's definitely impossible if you're smoking like you would smoke marijuana.

Here is the icing on the cake!!

This proves you have been mistaking non-breakthrough trips for actual breakthroughs. It is common knowledge that you can't breakthrough with regular salvia leaf no matter what torch/bowl you use. This is like claiming you can breakthrough with psychotria leaves! Every enthusiast knows you need a way higher dose that. Geez laweez I've been debating with a child it seems.

Aside from the countless user reports/literature substantiating this, I have witnessed so many people use salvia at different strengths that I'm familiar with the average dose required to reach different levels. No one has ever reached breakthrough with regular leaf!!!!

I have managed to breakthrough with a really good 20x from iamshaman.com , BUT its only possible if I am on a good dose of harmala (an maoi, stay away from this stuff). Maybe some people are sensitive enough to breakthrough with just a 20x, but its absurd to think its possible with regular leaf!! You just lost all credence with me and anyone following this thread. Have a good day!

That's an interesting way to say 'I can't find any studies connecting salvia to REM'
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=345
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=2869
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=15393
In just 5 minutes of looking I've also found numerous forum posts reporting breaking through into ego death with only leaf. I'm not going to bother linking them all, since you can just google the appropriate terms yourself.

Hapiness - Seriously, what the hell are you talking about?

But again, no one's debating that a salvia trip can have similarities to dreaming (specifically, hallucinations)

Everyone is debating that!

And your understanding about ego-loss and breakthrough are warped as hell.
First you get ego-loss/death and then breakthrough, which is the dream part everyone is describing. Or you just skip the ego-death and go straight to breakthrough with high enough doses.

I'm not sure but I think you're saying that it cannot be the same because the physical actions in the brain are different, but that doesn't mean shit.
I mean, WILD'ing and DILD'ing are most certainly two different neurological processes but you achieve exactly the same result.
And who knows how the hell Salvinorin works? It could be identical to WILD'ing.

And about the real and imaginary thing. Of course hallucinations are real. They're a real experience; or else they wouldn't happen in the first place. Just because other people can't see it, feel it, hear it, smell it doesn't mean you didn't.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

That's an interesting way to say 'I can't find any studies connecting salvia to REM'
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=345
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=2869
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=15393
In just 5 minutes of looking I've also found numerous forum posts reporting breaking through into ego death with only leaf. I'm not going to bother linking them all, since you can just google the appropriate terms yourself.

Those are great examples of what one may experience before reaching breakthrough. I've shared and witnessed similar experiences to each of them.

This salvia report sounds like a breakthrough,
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=58402
i know someone who experienced something very similar but they were mobile and seemingly more lucid.

Quote from above report:
"I felt myself trying to hang on to my world, to my universe of matter and space, but I was being pulled to into this grotesque monstrosity of an existence made up of only consciousnesses of pure energy and space.

After a short struggle the transfer was complete, suddenly and inexplicably. I had a body, surprisingly, but I could tell that it was not real and simply a projection of energy produced from a residual retention of the reality of my previous existence"

Before the moment this person breaks through their description was comparable to the first link you posted.

dmt breakthroughs:
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=24260
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=56682

It is hard to find good salvia breakthrough reports because its more difficult to reach with the typical extracts people are using. Plus dmt has been around longer.


Do you see the difference yet?