Thread: foolproof Instant WILD anytime ...

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

You obviously don't know much about dissociatives like salvia and pcp, which can resemble hallucinogens like LSD and DMT (when taken in large enough doses that you're too high to be able to tell the difference) but have completely different effects on your body and brain. I'm not just trying to protect people, I'm trying to end this stupid discussion, because salvia doesn't put you into a lucid dream state, no matter how much of it you smoke.

I've experienced ego death a variety of ways, including through salvia. Ego death, by most definitions, involves a loss of your sense of self (you can't tell where "you" stop and "your environment" starts). That sense of self is required for lucidity, to remember the difference between you and your dream environment. Lucid dreaming and ego death are more opposite than alike, with the only similarities being the hallucinations.

Again, it requires years of schooling for you to be remotely qualified to prescribe mind-altering substances to people, because simply taking them (and talking your friends into it) doesn't mean you know anything about them, or how they affect people. LOL ! OMG you have no clue.

When I fall short of a breakthrough with salvia it is almost guaranteed that I will experience an unbelievably terrifying ego death, that is why I no longer us it to break through. Now I only use a little bit of regular leaf before bed as an aid.

I understand it is hard to believe until you've experienced it, I was extremely skeptical before it happened to me. When you break through, whether you use salvia or dmt, it is like a super vivid dream, not everyone is lucid every time, but most have some awareness.

I don't claim to know how salvia really affects the mind, nobody really knows at this point. I just know first hand that you can experience something very comparable to an ld with it. I'm not trying to command anyone to try these drugs, I am just being honest about my own experiences and the countless experiences of other people I have witnessed.

Sorry I came off as insulting, i get excited by this topic.

Ego death is the formal name for breaking through, they're synonyms. When you fall short of ego death (or breaking through) you have a bad trip because your sense of self is being noticeably eroded, which is scary. When your sense of self is completely gone fear goes too, but if you don't hit that point, feeling your understanding and control over your environment break down usually results in a bad trip.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Where in the world is it illegal to walk your dog, or speak to members of the opposite sex?

The place Shift already mentioned, plus a lot of beaches and parks near my area it is illegal to walk your dog there. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about now that you think about it.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

The reason Vitamin B6 is 'allowed' is that it plays a major role in aiding macronutrient metabolism, neurotransmitter synthesis, histamine synthesis, hemoglobin synthesis and function and gene expression. The illegal drugs in question have no positive effects on body functions, and are actually often harmful to your body, as is their method of ingestion. Though everything breaks down into chemical compounds, vitamins and hallucinogens are definitely not equally safe or beneficial.

Actually Vitamin supplement have been proven to increase your risk of all kinds of diseases, most notably heart failure because you get too much vitamins. Just look at b12/b6 supplements it says on the bottle like 2000% of your daily recommended intake.
Plus who says Salvia doesn't do everything vitamins do except better? We don't know yet so you can't just say they don't do anything beneficial.
B6 and b12 however may not do anything beneficial at all....
http://ezinearticles.com/?Multivitam...-Ugly&id=15318
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...=&pagewanted=2

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Here's the simple scientific reasoning why B6 is not comparable to salvia as a lucid dreaming aid:
Salvia does not induce lucid dreaming in any way
Salvia is a dissociative (its effects are much more like PCP than DMT). It blocks signals to the conscious mind from other parts of the brain. Though it induces dream-like hallucination, there is no consciousness involved, and thus no lucidity. In other words, if you think that being on salvia is like being in a lucid dream you've never experienced lucidity, because salvia produces the exact opposite effect, putting you into a LESS lucid state.

BAHAHA.snort* "snigger snigger*
Ok first of all it is nothing like PCP, at ALL!
Obviously you've never experienced Salvia.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

My point isn't "don't do drugs," and isn't even "don't do salvia" (though dissociatives and especially salvia are well known for having a higher frequency of "bad trips" than most abused drugs). My point is that you've got no business recommending mind-altering substances to people when you clearly know very little about the substances in question. It takes many years of education to understand these substances; simply experiencing them doesn't even give you the basics of what you need to know to be able to safely or responsibly recommend them to others

So you have these years of education?
It works both ways you know....
Is there a course on this? Coz' I wouldn't take it if there was.
Experience is the best teacher. You could get 'educated' for your whole life, and still know fuck all because you were taught bullshit. Why do you think there is even good, positive essays, books and stories about drugs? Because people A) tried it before it was illegal and know it's not all bad and B) heard what the government/parents/teachers told them and decided, "well, I'll see for myself before I take it as truth".

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

I've experienced ego death a variety of ways, including through salvia. Ego death, by most definitions, involves a loss of your sense of self (you can't tell where "you" stop and "your environment" starts). That sense of self is required for lucidity, to remember the difference between you and your dream environment. Lucid dreaming and ego death are more opposite than alike, with the only similarities being the hallucinations.

In Ego Death, you don't even know who you are. So you wouldn't even be able to talk about you and your environment in that way if you had actually had Ego Death. Plus a breakthrough experience is past Ego Death, if I'm not mistaken. I've never experiences this level, so I'll just have to take the majority of peoples word for it at this point.

Originally Posted by lucid4sho

I don't claim to know how salvia really affects the mind, nobody really knows at this point. I just know first hand that you can experience something very comparable to an ld with it. I'm not trying to command anyone to try these drugs, I am just being honest about my own experiences and the countless experiences of other people I have witnessed.

Originally Posted by Shift

Anyway, there is no sense in arguing about what makes the "best" LD simply because it's all subjective, people want different things out of them so "best" really doesn't mean anything. .... Nothing makes a "natural" LD better than a LD that was achieved somehow through the use of a drug, it's just your opinion that not having to use a drug is better. Unless there is scientific proof that a natural LD is clearer, or recalled better, then you can't really state that they are better. And even then, you only can if it is a better method for them to be clear and easily remembered. Maybe there is a natural LDer out there who is sick and tired of remembering their lucids, and so for them "better" means hazy and difficult to remember. I've read about stuff like that on here. Anyway, everyone define best before starting arguments. Otherwise, how do you even know what you are arguing about?

I agree, and this could also apply to Salvia and why some people get an LD at breakthrough point and others don't.
I define best as being pretty much completely in control but still having something to challenge you to make you better and to make the dream interesting. Last for a fairly long time, like more than 20 minutes. Can't think of anything else atm.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Ego death is the formal name for breaking through, they're synonyms. When you fall short of ego death (or breaking through) you have a bad trip because your sense of self is being noticeably eroded, which is scary. When your sense of self is completely gone fear goes too, but if you don't hit that point, feeling your understanding and control over your environment break down usually results in a bad trip.

Uhhhh, no. Most people who take these hallucinogens are doing it simply to experience Ego Death, therefore it wouldn't be terrifying, quite the contrary actually. It would be exciting!

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Ego death is the formal name for breaking through, they're synonyms. When you fall short of ego death (or breaking through) you have a bad trip because your sense of self is being noticeably eroded, which is scary. When your sense of self is completely gone fear goes too, but if you don't hit that point, feeling your understanding and control over your environment break down usually results in a bad trip.

I've read countless books on dmt and the term breakthrough is always used to describe reaching the 'dream' state with salvia or dmt. Try reading some mckenna for a good description of what you can potentially experience past the point of breakthrough. Heres a decent random link describing the difference. http://www.lycaeum.org/drugs.old/oth...gandz.dmt.html

Whether its salvinorin or dmt, I usually can reach the dream state with a single massive hit of pure crystals from a freebase pipe, but if I exhale my hit and am not instantly transported, then I try to take another hit asap, which is not always possible if I am too disoriented already. Rarely I will spontaneously lose awareness and afterwards it feels like I am waking up from general anesthesia. Sometimes its possible to still feel ego loss after I breakthrough, but it is no where near as frightening as when I don't.

If I don't manage to reach the dream state, I will have to watch my world and ego torn apart, especially with salvia. When I do reach the dream state, whether its with salvia or dmt, the results are the exact same. I'm suddenly in a very vivid dream world and am fully aware that I just smoked a drug. The experience varies a lot, sometimes its unbelievable out of this world type stuff, and other times its more just like a typical ld and I am walking around a place that resembles earth. Also my degree of lucidity varies.

One thing to note is that it is extremely difficult to breakthrough more than once in a day. Also if you attempt it and fail, you should wait 24 hours before attempting it again or it will be really difficult.

I'm glad you are concerned about people but its not helping anyone to provide misinformation. Do a lot more reading and maybe get some more first hand experience so you can properly discuss this topic.

http://www.talesfromtheotherside.com...alvia-art1.JPG

Originally Posted by lucid4sho

I'm glad you are concerned about people but its not helping anyone to provide misinformation. Do a lot more reading and maybe get some more first hand experience so you can properly discuss this topic.

It's funny, that's the same advice I'd give you. I can understand how you and tommo might think high doses of dissociatives (like salvia, PCP) put you in the same place as high doses of hallucinogens (like DMT, LSD) if you've only had the 'first hand experience' without the medical/pharmaceutical training that encompasses the 'other half' of understanding how these drugs affect you, but the differences greatly outnumber the few similarities.

I'm not sure exactly what you felt was misinformation in my post, since you didn't directly address that, but I'm not surprised that the 'countless' books you've read have referred to ego death as 'breakthrough,' because that use of informal diction says something I already suspected about the quality of your reference material.

But we can sit and argue about who's more qualified, who's reading credible sources, and who's 'had the experience,' all day without getting anywhere, so let's get back to the subject at hand. To paraphrase my last post, for the purposes of our discussion on the topic, when I refer to 'ego death' I'm referring to the thing that happens after you break through, which involves dream-like hallucinations, and a loss of your sense of self, resulting in a merging of 'you' and 'your environment.'

Additionally, you might be surprised that the 'come up' from smoking salvia vs pure salvinorin is as different in my experience as that of weed to pure thc.

What is real? If you can smell, touch, hear, see and taste does that make it real? All you really sense is what your brain interprets as a sense from an electrical signal. Where do these signals come from? If we can only see an interpretation of reality then who is to say that we know what real is at all. Could it be possible drug trips, dreaming, obe's, astral recall or anything of this nature is just another interpretation of real. You wouldn't read just one book of all the books in the world and come up with an interpretation of human civilization based on one view. The fact is we just don't know.

Originally Posted by alfy984

What is real? If you can smell, touch, hear, see and taste does that make it real? All you really sense is what your brain interprets as a sense from an electrical signal. Where do these signals come from? If we can only see an interpretation of reality then who is to say that we know what real is at all. Could it be possible drug trips, dreaming, obe's, astral recall or anything of this nature is just another interpretation of real. You wouldn't read just one book of all the books in the world and come up with an interpretation of human civilization based on one view. The fact is we just don't know.

This is going to be a long post, but your initial question requires a long answer.

IMO we DO know what's real, because concepts like 'real' and 'imaginary' are human creations, born of our need to find a 'common ground' in our experiences. To this end, we've developed the rules of logic and the scientific method as the general consensus of what defines 'real.' If the experience can be reliably reproduced with evidence, and follows logic, then it's real.

Because the point of the concept of reality is finding a foundation for mutual understanding (common ground), the only definition of reality that matters is the one that follows the general consensus. So, the fact that you can intentionally alter your personal definition of reality, or interpret reality differently than someone else, is irrelevant, because doing so is simply deteriorating your ability to communicate your experiences.

This is all fairly 'out there,' so maybe an example will make my point slightly clearer. If you say you can become invisible to the human eye as long as no one's watching, your powers of invisibility are imaginary. That doesn't mean you're not telling the truth. It just means that you've got no way to prove or demonstrate your ability, so we've got no common ground with which to evaluate the experience.

Or, for a more relevant example, let's take our current discussion. When you break through on salvia, you may experience the exact same phenomenon that occurs when you achieve dream lucidity, or when you have high doses of DMT. But you've got absolutely no way to prove that to anyone else, and the only reproducible evidence of these events shows drastic physiological differences between them. So, I can conclude that your altered mental state is having an effect on your ability to differentiate between these experiences, and you can conclude that they're the same experience, but the bottom line is that for the purpose of communicating these events, their similarity is imaginary, because the only common ground is proof of their dissimilarity.

Everyone interested in ego death/breaking through, lucid dreaming, philosophy, or even physics eventually asks, "What is reality?" My conclusion, which formed the basis of this post, is that individual reality doesn't exist. There is only individual experience, and 'reality' is the general consensus of the common ground in those experiences, as defined by accepted rules.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

It's funny, that's the same advice I'd give you. I can understand how you and tommo might think high doses of dissociatives (like salvia, PCP) put you in the same place as high doses of hallucinogens (like DMT, LSD) if you've only had the 'first hand experience' without the medical/pharmaceutical training that encompasses the 'other half' of understanding how these drugs affect you, but the differences greatly outnumber the few similarities.

I'm not sure exactly what you felt was misinformation in my post, since you didn't directly address that, but I'm not surprised that the 'countless' books you've read have referred to ego death as 'breakthrough,' because that use of informal diction says something I already suspected about the quality of your reference material.

But we can sit and argue about who's more qualified, who's reading credible sources, and who's 'had the experience,' all day without getting anywhere, so let's get back to the subject at hand. To paraphrase my last post, for the purposes of our discussion on the topic, when I refer to 'ego death' I'm referring to the thing that happens after you break through, which involves dream-like hallucinations, and a loss of your sense of self, resulting in a merging of 'you' and 'your environment.'

Additionally, you might be surprised that the 'come up' from smoking salvia vs pure salvinorin is as different in my experience as that of weed to pure thc.

I'm glad you are admitting that dream like hallucination is part of breaking through, thats all I'm saying. When some people breakthrough they may still experience ego death along with a vivid dream, that is not the case for me and many others, I usually just get the dream with normal perception.

Theres plenty of people and writings supporting what I've said, anyone who spends a minute researching will see I am truthful.
I'm not saying all the info in every book is accurate, but they are still informative. try
http://www.lycaeum.org/books/plantsc...strassdmt.html

Neither of us can claim to really understand salvinorin, especially because it is not an alkaloid and its action in the body is not yet fully understood.

I agree normal salvia extracts are completely different from pure salvinorin, i tried to emphasize that so people understand that its nearly impossible to break through without pure salvinorin and it really helps to have a freebase pipe.

When you are trying to WILD and you experience SP, it can be very scary and disorientating, you can see and hear hallucinations, and you may get a sense of detachment. Yet when you get past SP into the dream, it is usually peaceful and your perception returns to near normal.

For me that is exactly the way salvinorin and dmt work. When I fall short of a breakthrough it is very comparable to SP, i hear crazy sounds, see bizzare visions, feel terrifying sensations, and my perception is extremely disoriented and detached, especially with salvinorin. Yet when I break through it is more like a very vivid LD. Salvinorin and dmt both do this, the main perceivable difference is the SP type effects from salvinorin are typically more frightening and unpleasent than from dmt.

Really it is not a short cut to LDing because it seems that only people who are already skilled at LDing are good at being lucid during the breakthrough, the average person is likely to forget most of the experience.

I've said since my first post in this thread that the dream-like hallucinations are what make salvia trips and lucid dreaming similar, that wasn't a new admission.

In fact, nothing I'm saying is new at this point. To reiterate my previous posts:
If you're not experiencing ego death, you're not breaking through completely, because 'breaking through' is the informal term for the process of achieving ego death. What you describe in your post sounds to me like a typical non-breakthrough salvia trip, though I wasn't clear on whether you were saying you were able to control your trip reality like one can with the lucid dream reality.

Salvia isn't a shortcut to LDing because LDing isn't the same thing as tripping on salvia. The two experiences involve different brain-wave states, and different parts of your brain being activated/shut down.

Finally, it's entirely possible to break through without pure salvinorin, or even salvia extract. It's all a matter of bowl size and flame intensity. But it's definitely impossible if you're smoking like you would smoke marijuana.