Thread: foolproof Instant WILD anytime ...

This stupid discussion had finally ended and you just had to go necro the thread. I can't wait to hear more from the people who can't differentiate between hallucinating on a dissociative and lucid dreaming.

Hmmmm ....

As someone who has used salvia hundreds of times and one who has lucids whenever I try, I would say I'm quite qualified to comment on the subject.

No, lucid dreaming and salvia induced visions are not the same thing, true.

Salvia most certainly increases the likelihood of achieving dream lucidity. If I wasn't clear enough before, this is strictly an after effect phenomenon. For example, using salvia in the afternoon for the last day or two makes DILDs more likely tonight. I'll bet you won't find a Laberge driven research paper on that subject, but you can take it as fact.

Yeh, he's just pissed coz' it's another person to prove him wrong....

Originally Posted by Amelaclya

Heh, I had never heard of this before but I have to admit I think I'm going to order some. I've always been very curious about LSD but too afraid to try it, especially after learning what a bad trip does to your brain physiologically After reading the wikipedia article about Salvia, it sounds much safer.

Although I can't really see how something that gives you wild hallucinations can be completely safe (long term effects unknown maybe?) so I certainly hope it's not too fun and I don't go overboard

Actually Salvia divinorum IS safe, and has been around for a very long time, you may even have some in you flower gardens, All it really is, is a type of sage. The native Americans used to smoke it in ceremonies, or the healers of the tribe, or something like that. Please do not get me wrong, I am neither condoning, or condemning it. I HAVE tried it once, and did not like it, but as said before it IS legal, but so is alcohol.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, that the only thing it did to me, was make me laugh so hard, and so long, it started to hurt my face! lol. If you go on youtube, like some one else mentioned, you can see some of the affects.

Reminder: Breakthrough with salvia can be extremely difficult to reach without using pure salvinorin crystals from a freebase pipe.

Ethnogarden sells the crystals, your local head shop probably has a free base pipe.

Don't think you are going to breakthrough with 20x,50x,100x,etc.. most people typically do not.

Once you've broken through it can be nearly identical to an LD, I've had false awakenings too.

During my most recent experience, I took an enormous hit of crystal and was suddenly fully lucid on top of a huge cliff overlooking a modern type city, but it was very psychedelic looking, the sky was made of something similar to lava, so I stared at it for a few minutes. Behind me was an enormous pine forest, and the cool breeze kept bringing gusts of intoxicating pine aroma. My salvia breakthroughs are usually much shorter than my actual LDs, so I usually just sit and enjoy the scenery, rather than interact.

Originally Posted by Funnel

This can't be a serious question. Why the judgment? Lets see ... you are drugging your brain, pumping it with chemicals to an unnatural state of hallucinations. Yes, we see things in dreams, but dreams are not dangerous! If dreams were dangerous, natural selection would have wiped us out a long time ago.

Promising field of exploration? Yes, I consider myself an explorer when I walk in circles and speak to imaginary creatures. This all goes on while the real world around you passes. We HAVE to sleep and we HAVE to dream, so why not spend the time lucid? Drugs do not spend time, they waste time. The further you disconnect from life, the more pathetic and useless you will become.

I take offense to this because this is a bad idea and we all know how quickly bad ideas spread. It should be debated because this is not a one sided issue. It is difficult for me to leave this issue alone and let bygones be bygones when you will not. If you are going to fuck yourself up, please keep it to yourself and stop persuading others to join you.

I agree wholeheartedly, Funnel. Thank you.

We now live in a world where you have to get hyped up on stupid amounts of chemicals or else you're not an intellectual and you're not social and you're not fun. It pisses me the fuck off.

Personally I'd like to be able to LD on my own as using a chemical seems almost like cheating. It's just a standard I've set for myself - I've LD'd before without any help, and I'll learn to do it again.

Originally Posted by Advantageous Noodle

I agree wholeheartedly, Funnel. Thank you.

We now live in a world where you have to get hyped up on stupid amounts of chemicals or else you're not an intellectual and you're not social and you're not fun. It pisses me the fuck off.

Personally I'd like to be able to LD on my own as using a chemical seems almost like cheating. It's just a standard I've set for myself - I've LD'd before without any help, and I'll learn to do it again.

I agree there are plenty of ignorant drug users who insist people are less intellectual/fun for not using chemicals. Though, I would guess this is not the majority. Personally, I admire your standards and I wouldn't discourage you from them. I only post my knowledge to help people with an already unquenchable curiosity. I don't want to persuade anyone.

As someone who is experienced in the field of psychology as well as the effects of psycho - effective drugs, allow me to weigh in on this topic. While a dream and a hallucination are both sensory perceptions of stimuli that don't actually exist, a hallucination is also defined as a delusion, or a morbid error in thinking. A dream is simply one's unconscious mind "overpowering" our sense of logic which is suppressed during sleep. While it might seem bizarre and distorted in our reflection of it, it's actually very logical to our individual circumstances and experiences (though we might not necessarily understand why).
There is a basic principle of psychology that states any behavior which is reinforced will be repeated. There's a reason more people don't use Salvia. They have a negative response to it. The experience is not reinforcing, but rather disturbing and they don't repeat it. Pot, on the other hand, given any absence of negative consequences, is largely reinforced due to the sedation and social nature of the experience.
Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now and go back to doing RC's. Thanks for reading this.

Originally Posted by lucid4sho

I agree there are plenty of ignorant drug users who insist people are less intellectual/fun for not using chemicals. Though, I would guess this is not the majority. Personally, I admire your standards and I wouldn't discourage you from them. I only post my knowledge to help people with an already unquenchable curiosity. I don't want to persuade anyone.

Thanks for that. I don't hear that from people very often. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one of my generation that still believes in something.

Originally Posted by DrTechnical

Hmmmm ....

As someone who has used salvia hundreds of times and one who has lucids whenever I try, I would say I'm quite qualified to comment on the subject.

No, lucid dreaming and salvia induced visions are not the same thing, true.

Salvia most certainly increases the likelihood of achieving dream lucidity. If I wasn't clear enough before, this is strictly an after effect phenomenon. For example, using salvia in the afternoon for the last day or two makes DILDs more likely tonight. I'll bet you won't find a Laberge driven research paper on that subject, but you can take it as fact.

Actually tommo, I agree with everything in this post. In fact, as the person claiming that smoking enough salvia will cause people to immediately enter lucid dreams, it appears to be directly disagreeing with you. To clarify, I was complaining about the fact that you believe any post in the thread, regardless of topic, validates your opinion, rather than worrying about someone proving me wrong. I think you may be projecting

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Actually tommo, I agree with everything in this post. In fact, as the person claiming that smoking enough salvia will cause people to immediately enter lucid dreams, it appears to be directly disagreeing with you. To clarify, I was complaining about the fact that you believe any post in the thread, regardless of topic, validates your opinion, rather than worrying about someone proving me wrong. I think you may be projecting

Who cares if you seemingly cannot reach an LD type experience with salvia and others can. No one is rubbing it in your face, so why are you still jealously whining.

I prefer natural LDs anyways, the only reason I talk about salvia is because it is partially what got me into practicing LDing in the first place. I hardly ever smoke it anymore, other than a little bit of regular leaf before bed.

I honestly don't care how long I had a dry spell or how much I wanted to LD. I WOULD NOT do this. Instead of an LD you could get an OD.

Really, STUPIDEST IDEA EVER. They really need to make this crap illegal.

Originally Posted by NASCAR

I honestly don't care how long I had a dry spell or how much I wanted to LD. I WOULD NOT do this. Instead of an LD you could get an OD.

Really, STUPIDEST IDEA EVER. They really need to make this crap illegal.

I agree its a risk.

Though technically it is extremely non-toxic and hasn't been shown to cause harm at the ranges typically reached by humans. The biggest risk is someone injuring themselves while in a waking trip, a baby sitter helps prevent that, thankfully most people snap out of it within a few minutes.

Also the intensity and scariness of the experience can be emotionally traumatizing for many people, the decision shouldn't be taken lightly. It is a risky and thrilling experience, its comparable to choosing to go sky diving or something similar. I wouldn't be opposed to some type of minor regulation for it, but i hate to see it be made illegal, i like to be able to choose what i can and can't explore.

Originally Posted by lucid4sho

Who cares if you seemingly cannot reach an LD type experience with salvia and others can.

Common sense, all medical research, and basic pharmacology agree that smoking enough salvia won't ever place someone into a lucid dream, but will induce dream-like hallucinations and impair their ability to differentiate between the two experiences.

Ego death eliminates your sense of self, making it impossible to remember that you're hallucinating and in control, which is key to a lucid experience. Your habit of switching between claims of salvia inducing experiences with "LD type" hallucinations and "guaranteed instant LDs," as well as your misuse of terms like ego death says volumes about your credibility and precision.

If I'm jealous of you, it's only because I've heard ignorance is bliss.

E: I notice you've now described the use of salvia as both "not very risky" and "a risk." You might want to decide on one or the other, since the decision should affect whether you would blindly recommend the substance to others.

There is definately some bad info in this thread, agreed.

It is impossible to OD on Salvia. End of story. If you did, you would be the first. Now I agree w/ lucid4sho completely. The risk here is hurting yourself under the influence. This is easily prevented by lying down, closing your eyes and not moving until it is over.

Additionally, if you use salvia and can't rememeber the experience, you used too much. Back off on the dose. There is no point to not remembering the experience.

www.sagewisdom.org gives many good tips on use, breaking through and safety best practice.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Common sense, all medical research, and basic pharmacology agree that smoking enough salvia won't ever place someone into a lucid dream, but will induce dream-like hallucinations and impair their ability to differentiate between the two experiences.

Ego death eliminates your sense of self, making it impossible to remember that you're hallucinating and in control, which is key to a lucid experience. Your habit of switching between claims of salvia inducing experiences with "LD type" hallucinations and "guaranteed instant LDs," as well as your misuse of terms like ego death says volumes about your credibility and precision.

If I'm jealous of you, it's only because I've heard ignorance is bliss.

E: I notice you've now described the use of salvia as both "not very risky" and "a risk." You might want to decide on one or the other, since the decision should affect whether you would blindly recommend the substance to others.

Clearly there is no convincing you Oh well, proofs in the puddin, anyone who really needs to know the truth will find out for themselves.

I explain my experience to help those already determined use it properly. Thats the problem with drug education these days, its all about demonizing drugs, rather than explaining how to be a cautious consumer for the people who are going to experiment with them regardless.

I made a scale that describes my personal reaction to salvia, ofcourse everything will vary from p2p, plus there is a huge difference from vendor to vendor on how potent the extracts are. Also its important to know that most people have to use salvia a few times on different days before they start to react to it.

(1) (couple big hits of regular leaf)- Slight visual distortion(rippling, bending, depth change) slight strange feeling in stomach or chest.

(2) (one big hit of standardized 10x)- EYES OPENED: Moderate visual distortions(objects melding, beams going through things, waving, bending, depth change), sweating, pushing and pulling sensations.
EYES CLOSED AND RELAXED: A strange little day dream sometimes happen, its just 2-dimensional though and I usually have only slight awareness, but I prefer the day dream to the distortions.

3- (couple quick big hits of standardized 20x) - Strong visual and possibly auditory hallucination(i've always closed my eyes at this point, i feel incredibly distorted and i may see; vortexes, entities, hear voices, and start having delusional thoughts. The physical sensations at this point can be very intense and usually scary. This is the stage where you are most likely to act out in. I never attempt to reach this stage, it just has happened by accident, my goal is always either 1,2, or rarely, 5.

4- (couple quick big hits of standardized 35x, or too small of a hit of crystal) What I consider ego death. It is horrible. This is my biggest fear of trying to breakthrough, because its where I end up if I fall short. I hate it so much. When it happens, the first thing I see for a moment is everything being 'torn' apart, in a completely unexplainable way until there is nothingness. Then you feel like you've died and you are never coming back, even though i can't actually think about my body, my family or anything, i still feel a tremendous amount of pain from feeling that i will never see any of it again. I thought I wasn't scared of death before experiencing this my first time, but this changed my mine

5- (couple quick big hits of standardized 35x, or a good hit of crystal) Breakthrough - Its possible to physically collapse in other stages, but at this point, you are almost guaranteed to collapse, so be in a chair that leans backwards or you might flip forwards on to your face (its happened to me )
I experience no real transition. I don't remember exhaling, i just am suddenly in another world and usually very lucid.

My breakthrough experiences are for the most part relatively mundane, I think its because I beg for craziness so i get the opposite. When I help other people reach breakthrough they usually have the most amazing story of talking to guides and being shown the secrets of life and crap. My experiences
are more like my usual LDs, mostly earthly landscapes and content.

Originally Posted by Sir Mark

As someone who is experienced in the field of psychology as well as the effects of psycho - effective drugs, allow me to weigh in on this topic. While a dream and a hallucination are both sensory perceptions of stimuli that don't actually exist, a hallucination is also defined as a delusion, or a morbid error in thinking. A dream is simply one's unconscious mind "overpowering" our sense of logic which is suppressed during sleep. While it might seem bizarre and distorted in our reflection of it, it's actually very logical to our individual circumstances and experiences (though we might not necessarily understand why).
There is a basic principle of psychology that states any behavior which is reinforced will be repeated. There's a reason more people don't use Salvia. They have a negative response to it. The experience is not reinforcing, but rather disturbing and they don't repeat it. Pot, on the other hand, given any absence of negative consequences, is largely reinforced due to the sedation and social nature of the experience.
Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now and go back to doing RC's. Thanks for reading this.

You lost me at "experienced in the field of psychology".
The fact that you think hallucinations and delusions are the same reinforced that decision to disagree with you.
Hallucinations are things you experience that have no physical basis. But you can still tell that they aren't real.
Delusions are where you believe something is real when it really isn't for example believing in god. Or for the religious here that would disagree with that, another example would be convincing yourself that you can levitate objects with your mind.

Originally Posted by Advantageous Noodle

Personally I'd like to be able to LD on my own as using a chemical seems almost like cheating.

Who says you have to LD using chemicals?
It's your own choice. We're not forcing you to use drugs ffs.
LD 'on your own' all you want.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Actually tommo, I agree with everything in this post. In fact, as the person claiming that smoking enough salvia will cause people to immediately enter lucid dreams, it appears to be directly disagreeing with you. To clarify, I was complaining about the fact that you believe any post in the thread, regardless of topic, validates your opinion, rather than worrying about someone proving me wrong. I think you may be projecting

I have no idea what you're talking about here.

Originally Posted by NASCAR

I honestly don't care how long I had a dry spell or how much I wanted to LD. I WOULD NOT do this. Instead of an LD you could get an OD.

No, you couldn't "get an OD", Not possible. Never happened

Originally Posted by NASCAR

Really, STUPIDEST IDEA EVER. They really need to make this crap illegal.

Yeh, no ones smoking weed these days, no ones taking ecstasy every weekend at raves where other people are snorting speed and cocaine and later taking heroin.
It's people like you that I wish would just shut the fuck up, seriously. You don't want to do it so you don't want anyone else to do it either. WHY!?!?! Can you do me one favour and answer that.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

Common sense, all medical research, and basic pharmacology .... bla bla bla

Please point me to any research done on Salvia.

Originally Posted by Happiness is a Warm Gun

E: I notice you've now described the use of salvia as both "not very risky" and "a risk." You might want to decide on one or the other, since the decision should affect whether you would blindly recommend the substance to others.

He said it's not risky in the sense of OD'ing but it can have negative mental side-effects if you aren't prepared.

Please note that if you look in a decent dictionary you will find that hallucinations are indeed a form of delusion. A dream, however, is not. I believe my point was that there are both similarities as well as differences between hallucinations and dreams. As a practicing mental health professional I do have some experience and knowledge and education, so while it might piss you off that there people who strongly disagree with your opinion, not all of them come from a position of ignorance.

Originally Posted by Sir Mark

Please note that if you look in a decent dictionary you will find that hallucinations are indeed a form of delusion. A dream, however, is not. I believe my point was that there are both similarities as well as differences between hallucinations and dreams. As a practicing mental health professional I do have some experience and knowledge and education, so while it might piss you off that there people who strongly disagree with your opinion, not all of them come from a position of ignorance.

What is not delusional or hallucinatory about dreams? Though I could say the same thing for waking life.

Just curious, do you have a degree or are you a self proclaimed therapist?

not too sure why this is such a controversial topic, hallucinating and dreaming are 2 very different and not even related things. This is a fact. In "exploring the world of", Laberge clearly states that in the dreaming world, you are dreaming exclusively because you have no external stimuli, and your mind creates its own world to entetain itself while you sleep. (basically.) DRUGS ARE MOST DEFINITELY AN EXTERNAL STIMULI. While the experience is somewhat like dreaming, (sort of, i didnt think so) it's not the same thing or even in the same ballpark as dreaming.

Originally Posted by DarthDallas

not too sure why this is such a controversial topic, hallucinating and dreaming are 2 very different and not even related things. This is a fact. In "exploring the world of", Laberge clearly states that in the dreaming world, you are dreaming exclusively because you have no external stimuli, and your mind creates its own world to entetain itself while you sleep. (basically.) DRUGS ARE MOST DEFINITELY AN EXTERNAL STIMULI. While the experience is somewhat like dreaming, (sort of, i didnt think so) it's not the same thing or even in the same ballpark as dreaming.

Hallucination:
"A hallucination, in the broadest sense, is a perception in the absence of a stimulus" wikipedia
"Perception of visual, auditory, tactile, olfactory, or gustatory experiences without an external stimulus" american heritage dictionary

You got it backwards.

If drugs were considered an external stimuli then only dreams could be considered hallucinations.

Maybe hallucinogens should be called illusionogens.

Originally Posted by Sir Mark

Please note that if you look in a decent dictionary you will find that hallucinations are indeed a form of delusion. A dream, however, is not. I believe my point was that there are both similarities as well as differences between hallucinations and dreams. As a practicing mental health professional I do have some experience and knowledge and education, so while it might piss you off that there people who strongly disagree with your opinion, not all of them come from a position of ignorance.

By 'decent dictionary' I assume you mean DSM-IV? (No idea whether that states they are the same btw so don't flame me for a joke)
EDIT: Even psychology seems to have it right "A delusion is commonly defined as a fixed false belief and is used in everyday language to describe a belief that is either false, fanciful or derived from deception. In psychiatry, the definition is necessarily more precise and implies that the belief is pathological (the result of an illness or illness process). As a pathology it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information or certain effects of perception which would more properly be termed an apperception or illusion."

I think you're getting confused highly between the two.
Someone that is hallucinating could believe that these experiences are real and therefore they would be 'delusional'. But it is not really ever the case when taking 'hallucinogens' with a few exceptions. So dreaming would actually be more like a delusion than a hallucination.
Also as lucid4sho states, external stimuli does not mean a foreign substance. Stimuli is tactile sensations or senses.

Without any hate or pointless criticism whatsoever I think you need to check the dictionary a bit more yourself and maybe do a bit more training because you seem to have a very twisted view of this subject and if you are in fact a trained 'mental health professional' or whatever you could actually harm someone using misinformation. Don't rely on your brain for dictionary definitions, our memory is extremely fallible.

Originally Posted by lucid4sho

Hallucination:
"A hallucination, in the broadest sense, is a perception in the absence of a stimulus" wikipedia
"Perception of visual, auditory, tactile, olfactory, or gustatory experiences without an external stimulus" american heritage dictionary

You got it backwards.

If drugs were considered an external stimuli then only dreams could be considered hallucinations.

Maybe hallucinogens should be called illusionogens.

I was going to say that.
Barely any 'hallucinogenic' drugs can actually be called hallucinogens because you are actually just perceiving the world differently. But as I understand it there are very few, such as DMT that completely shut off the outside world, or, stimuli. I think that is why most mind explorers choose now to call them entheogens. Not sure what that means.

Originally Posted by lucid4sho

Just curious, do you have a degree or are you a self proclaimed therapist?

I'm guessing self-proclaimed or that he is under the delusion he actually has a degree (Again a JOKE)

Originally Posted by Through the Looking Glass

A) Why isn't this illegal?

Why isn't sky-diving illegal? It's far more dangerous. I have tried salvia a few times, and let me tell you, the comedown was one of the most beautiful things I've ever experienced.

Oh, and don't judge salvia off just the negative stories. A good portion of these people didn't research the effects whatsoever before trying it and either expected it to be weak just because it was legal or did it in a "party" atmosphere which is completely misusing this plant. You have to go in expecting the craziest experience of your life and you can't resist the effects when they do come on.