Everyone has Lucids...

**ChaybaChayba** · 01-13-2009 04:54 PM

Yeah I think this might be true, I remember talking to my friends about choosing what you dream when I was a kid. We all seemed to do it..

**Neko-san** · 01-13-2009 05:00 PM

A friend has lucid dreams almost every time he goes to sleep without practice, he told me so when I told him about my lucid experience. I asked him what he does and he does a lot of the stuff every one on this forum does in his lucid dreams. For him it is quite common to become lucid.

While I on the other hand had to read about lucid dreaming first then I got 3 lucid dreams within 3 weeks after that without even trying to get one. For some reason I just told my self in those 3 dreams "I am dreaming", never did any RC. But I managed to fly. My dream recall sucks though, in the weekends and vacations I remember my dreams perfectly, but on school days I just remember small parts that happens before I wake up and special happenings. I guess I'm too stressed out on school days.

**O'nus** · 01-13-2009 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Jackson1610

thats what im talking about

Why have you ignored my question?

~

**Lusense** · 01-14-2009 05:30 PM

Ya, I gotta say, I even just talked to some people this morning and they didn't "believe in lucid dreams"... Even though I said that it's been proven scientifically and all that. So I'm sure those people never had lucids

.

**vonklammo** · 01-14-2009 06:44 PM

This thread smacks unpleasantly of armchair research. I'd be interested to know if any serious attempt has been made to ask the general public about LDing. In fact, as far as I know, no serious push has been made to make the public AWARE that such a thing as LDing exists. It certainly has a tinge of New Age Bullshit whenever I mention it to "civilians" (and the imagery and language that LDers tend to use may strenghten that perception somewhat).

It's odd, considering how mind-blowing it is and how beneficial applied LDing could be for a number of people. It's weirdly overlooked.

Time to something about that! Who wants to join my LD Awareness Organization=

**Lusense** · 01-14-2009 07:02 PM

Ya man, it really pisses me off. Sometimes when I mention it to someone or ask them about it they act like I'm stating some paranormal, psychic phenomenon when in reality it's concrete and heavily supported. Then they may go ahead and question it even though they have 0 information on the topic (and I tell them to do a little research before talking), yet they somehow think just because they haven't had one it doesn't exist. Please don't speak if you haven't atleast done some reading

.

**ThreeLetterSyndrom** · 01-14-2009 08:03 PM

In general, all of my friends accept it as it is, and are a lil' bit interested in dreams. Two of them have LD's, but one hasn't got any control, and the other's control sucks, quite frankly.

(Dream recall and control come natural to me, but not dream realization

)

P.S: I'm going to do my talk for English about LDing

I already cooked up an intro.

**carwashguy** · 01-14-2009 09:49 PM

I have never had one, which is why I want to learn so badly now.

I told my girlfriend about it, and we realized she's a natural. She thought everyone did it. She then asked two of her friends, and they too were naturals. I then asked both my parents, and both my parents recalled having lucid dreams.

That made me feel like a moron. Even though my girlfriend says she can change the dream, I get the feeling she doesn't have much control from what she tells me about her dreams. She also has very poor recall.

She tells me I'm getting my hopes up and that I'll probably be like "what's the big deal" when I finally do have a lucid dream.

**paragon** · 01-15-2009 04:53 AM

I hear this claim made all the time - "everyone has lucid dreams, just not everyone knows it". Why do people keep saying this, when it's probably not true, and at any rate, there's no way of knowing?

**moonshine** · 01-15-2009 02:26 PM

I was lucky enough to experience lucids before I even know what they were.
This was primarily due to the strange sleeping patterns (lots of lie ins) I enjoyed at university. I even worked out ways to maintain the dream when it started to fade - which were very similar to those detailed in Laberges book when I finally discovered it.

**Jackson1610** · 03-18-2009 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by O'nus

You're fringing on tautology.

Yes, everyone has the ability to recollect and have lucid dreams. Yes, the frequency of these skills is based on someones education and awareness of the topic.

What exactly are you saying here..? Couldn't you say the same thing about mathematics..? Everyone will intuitively use mathematics to some degree before formally learning about it. So, what is your point..?

~

That’s not what I’m saying first of all, ya sure, Lucid Dreaming is something you need to learn how to do before you can accomplish it, but that’s beside the point. The point I'm making is that everyone has dreams, the only difference between us who know how to have Lucid’s and them are that we can control them, they on the other hand only remember their dreams, so I guess in a way their Lucid Dreaming, because remembering what you dreamed about is called Dream Recall which IS a Lucid Dreaming technique.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, and based on the reactions of everyone posting to this thread, dreaming ISa natural occurrence and everyone has dreams they remember, the only difference is: they are not controlling their dreams, where as those who know how to, do.

And I'm sorry I didn't answer right away.

**Oneiro** · 03-18-2009 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by Jackson1610

Everyone has lucid dreams throughout their lives..

Unsupported sweeping statement #1, subsequently disclaimed by the OP. Fair enough.

Originally Posted by guitarboy

yah, everyone can realize they are dreaming.

Unsupported sweeping statement #2. Hmmm.. getting good, this.

Originally Posted by shift

I have read about a lot of naturals on here though who have great dream control and love having fun lucid dreams, even before they found out what it was and any techniques to induce/control them.

May I paraphrase, to make my own comment?

You have read some accounts about self-proclaimed "naturals" on here, though, who claim to have great dream control.. even before they claim to have found out what it was.. but then there's always the "Validity Quotient" to take into account.

Originally Posted by lagunagirl

actually becoming lucid can be quite common..

Unsupported sweeping statement #3.

Originally Posted by cacophony

My best friend for example - I was talking to her about lucid dreaming and my dream journal, etc. etc... She looks at me and goes, "wait, I do that all the time - almost every night I know I'm dreaming and I control the dream however I want. I thought everyone could do that without trying..."

I wish I had a quid for every time I've heard such a story. On the numerous occasions that I've put such claims to the test (when friends have made similar comments, and I've encountered such claims since Infant School btw) the result has been complete failure to replicate their claims on the part(s) of the claimer(s). (I'm not alone in this. Another DV member periodically tests some people who make such claims. I might add that most of such people refuse to participate, giving every excuse under the sun).The most recent one that I encountered perfectly illustrates what I mean: a friend of mine and I were talking about metaphysical aspects of life (as you do when skunked out of your box) and he suddenly came out with words to the effect of: "I can visualise anything perfectly just by closing my eyes and concentrating..", to which I countered: "Really? Could you perfectly visualise your hands?" He replied that that would be easy, and that he would do it that very night, at my suggestion. So.. days go by, and he says nothing. I hang fire, and 3 weeks later, he still hasn't said anything. So.. I gently broach the subject again, and he immediately takes umbrage, gets completely defensive, and avoids answering the question.. but I don't let it go, and remind him of what he had claimed before, to which he replies:"Oh no! I never said that!" I affirm that he did, but he denies ever saying what I quoted, saying that what he had actually said was that once he had had a "perfect" visualisation that came out of the blue, and that he had never made the claim that I quoted. I have seen such behaviour many times in my life (I'm 53). When you put these people on the spot, they wither away. People are terrible exaggerators/bullshitters/liars, and I include children in that.

Originally Posted by o'nus

Yes, everyone has the ability to recollect and have lucid dreams..

Unsupported sweeping statement #4.

Originally Posted by grod

Though it is certainly true everyone has the potential for lucid dreams..

Unsupported sweeping statement #5

Originally Posted by neko-san

A friend has lucid dreams almost every time he goes to sleep without practice, he told me so when I told him about my lucid experience.

Another quid in my burgeoning coffer. Neko-san? Come on.. your friend says that he can do it. That doesn't mean that he does it. It just means that he says he can.

Originally Posted by lusense

... it's been proven scientifically and all that..

Unsupported sweeping statement #6. No, it hasn't. What has been shown under lab conditions is that sometimes while asleep, the brain does strange things, generally, but not exclusively, attributed to an increase in Serotonin. The fact that the sleeping subjects claimed to have been LDing at the time does not "scientifically prove" lucid dreaming. Also, I am 100% positive that LaBerge never factored in the Validity Quotient in his research. Maybe he's never heard of it.

Originally Posted by vonklammo

This thread smacks unpleasantly of armchair research. I'd be interested to know if any serious attempt has been made to ask the general public about LDing.

At last.. someone thinking outside the box, using initiative of thought, not jumping on bandwagons. A depressingly rare quality.

Originally Posted by carwashguy

I told my girlfriend about it, and we realized she's a natural. She thought everyone did it. She then asked two of her friends, and they too were naturals. I then asked both my parents, and both my parents recalled having lucid dreams.

Originally Posted by paragon

I hear this claim made all the time - "everyone has lucid dreams, just not everyone knows it". Why do people keep saying this, when it's probably not true, and at any rate, there's no way of knowing?

Yay! Another thinker-outside-the-box! There is hope..

That's just about all I wanted to say.

Bring on the flames, and the ban (again)..

**O'nus** · 03-18-2009 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by Jackson1610

That’s not what I’m saying first of all, ya sure, Lucid Dreaming is something you need to learn how to do before you can accomplish it, but that’s beside the point. The point I'm making is that everyone has dreams, the only difference between us who know how to have Lucid’s and them are that we can control them, they on the other hand only remember their dreams, so I guess in a way their Lucid Dreaming, because remembering what you dreamed about is called Dream Recall which IS a Lucid Dreaming technique.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, and based on the reactions of everyone posting to this thread, dreaming ISa natural occurrence and everyone has dreams they remember, the only difference is: they are not controlling their dreams, where as those who know how to, do.

And I'm sorry I didn't answer right away.

What would be the opposing argument to you..? I don't know.. I thought that what you were saying was obvious - people have dreams and lucid dreams is simply controlling them. I don't see anything "special" about it that separates us from other dreamers. Hell, many people learn to lucid dream on their own!

I don't disagree with you or anything, I'm more curious why you felt the need to post this which seems obvious truth to me, personally..?

~

**paragon** · 03-19-2009 12:24 AM

Holy cow, Oneiro, it's an internet forum, not a scientific journal!

I objected to the original claim because it's one of those urban myths that frequently gets repeated as fact. I hardly think it's necessary to scientifically verify every statement made on the internet under lab conditions. If we were to apply those standards to your post we would have to conclude that you had not done sufficient research, nor quoted sources, to justify your opinion that the original posts were unfounded.

**ClouD** · 03-19-2009 12:43 AM

Oneiro, everything is an unsupported sweeping statement when it comes to dreams.

It's a completely subjective experience, and the 'know that you are dreaming', is utter bullshit. Differentiating between reality and dream, while dreaming, is just speculation, and vice versa -- you can only 'know' that you are the dreamer.

Putting someone in a lab and plugging them up to see brain activity, means shit all imo. The term lucid dreaming itself is sketchy, and I'll bet you've seen the array of posts asking 'was this a lucid dream'.

Dreaming of lucid dreaming, I think is often taken as lucid dreaming itself, and determining real control and awareness doesn't lie within the boundaries of 'I know that I'm dreaming'.

Do you lucid dream naturally? If not, then you have no say on the validity of 'naturals', and personally I'm wondering why you care if someone wants to lie, they're only cheating themselves.

I don't know if I have 'lucid dreams' any more. Almost all of my dreams are with high awareness and I have control over them from an objective detached standpoint, as well as being absorbed in them at the same time -- a double pointed awareness which technically doesn't relate to lucidity at all.

Only sometimes do I say "I am lucid dreaming" and recently I have been saying that deliberately to see if it makes a difference, which it doesn't seem to. That said, for the beginner of self-aware dreaming I think that it makes a huge difference, because it helps with the detachment as well as the involvement.

Real control comes from detachment, real sense-experience comes from being involved, together they are what I call a lucid dream, not a simple 'oh I'm dreaming', which lasts for maybe a few minutes because people get so distracted.

I say I am a natural, because it's so effortless, I have no evidence nor motive to prove to you even if I believed it were possible. There are others that dream like I do, or at least claim to.

Skepticism and cynicism are far apart. One shows intelligence, the other shows ignorance.

**Elkfazer** · 03-19-2009 01:10 AM

I'm just surprised that this thread has managed to get to 2 pages long

If the original OP of the thread had said something like "Having dreams is a prerequisite to Lucid Dreaming" then everyone would have been much more enlightened on what he was trying to say, rather than stating that everyone has lucid dreams, lol

The first statement wouldn't have been much fun though and I like ambiguity in a post

**Oneiro** · 03-19-2009 02:05 AM

Originally Posted by paragon

I objected to the original claim because it's one of those urban myths that frequently gets repeated as fact.

Absolutely. Such things get my goat as well. Do I have to tell you that such sites as this one are replete with such bs? I sincerely hope not.

Originally Posted by paragon

I hardly think it's necessary to scientifically verify every statement made on the internet under lab conditions.

I absolutely agree. Mankind likes to think that its prognostications are valuable and important, when, IMO, in the overall scheme of things, we are insignificant specks of shite, whose musings mean absolutely nothing. It's the
ego that holds us back as a species.. the innate sense of self-importance that is instilled in all of us from birth by our peers.. IMO.

Originally Posted by paragon

If we were to apply those standards to your post we would have to conclude that you had not done sufficient research, nor quoted sources, to justify your opinion that the original posts were unfounded.

Oh Jesus.. (vernacular, not literal).. I like the way that you use the pronoun "we", automatically assuming that you are speaking for Mankind.

"We would have to conclude that.. etc etc.." is your personal opinion, NOT a truism.. and let me add.. I have no idea what you are referring to about "scientific" backup for my personal observations. You might like to think (when it suits you) that such nomenclature adds gravitas to your musings. <Shakes head in derision> You seem to be able to adopt a belief that a "scientific" analysis is intrinsically more "valid" than a "non-scientific" one.. (again.. when it suits you).. "letters-after-one's-name" does not equal "truth" IMO...

Just what exactly is your point?

And also: which statement(s) that I made is/are "unsupported"?

**paragon** · 03-19-2009 02:43 AM

Don't get your knickers in a twist, mate. It's only the internet.

**Caradon** · 03-19-2009 02:54 AM

Is there any logical reason why somebody who can remember dreams, would not be able to get Lucid? Granted they have enough motivation.

I learned how to do it on my own, when I didn't know anybody else was doing it. If I could do it, I don't see why anyone else wouldn't be able to.

**Black_Eagle** · 03-19-2009 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by Jackson1610

Everyone has lucid dreams throught there lives, they might not realize it but they do. I remember before I joined this site and really learned what Lucid Dreaming was, I had Lucid all the time, but I never knew thats what they were called untill after I joined. But untill you know what Lucid Dreaming is and you learn to control your dreams, its just not any fun.

No, Jackson.

No.

**Oneiro** · 03-19-2009 03:25 AM