Thread: Is it possible to enter an LD outside of a REM cycle?

Originally Posted by Shift

SP by definition is not REM. Sleep paralysis is the paralysis of your body outside of REM sleep. Particularly, when you are awake and trying to move and cannot. Sleep walking has nothing to do with REM atonia or its absence (Rem Behavioral Disorder).

Sleep paralysis is just the paralysis of your body outside of REM. If you are WILDing, you may have SP since you are awake and you may use it to WILD and enter a dream. SP isn't really an indicator of anything except that you just so happen to be in SP. Or that you are not in REM.
Unless you're monitoring your brainwaves or trusting a nova-dreamer, you really can't tell if you're in REM or not.

How can sleepwalking have nothing to do with REM atonia? If you're in (having?) REM atonia, you're paralyzed. You can't be walking around while you're paralyzed. ...Or can you?

Are you always paralyzed during REM? If you dream during NREM, are you paralyzed then too?

Originally Posted by Hidden

How can sleepwalking have nothing to do with REM atonia? If you're in (having?) REM atonia, you're paralyzed. You can't be walking around while you're paralyzed. ...Or can you?

Are you always paralyzed during REM? If you dream during NREM, are you paralyzed then too?

Because sleepwalking isn't related to REM sleep. So you're not under REM atonia.

No, you are typically not paralyzed during NREM.

Originally Posted by Shift

Because sleepwalking isn't related to REM sleep. So you're not under REM atonia.

No, you are typically not paralyzed during NREM.

Oooh, okay. I was thinking you had to be dreaming when you sleepwalk. But isn't there still a relationship between sleepwalking and REM in that when you're in REM you can't be sleepwalking because you're under REM atonia during REM? The wiki says that sleepwalking happens during deep sleep, which means it doesn't happen during REM. Sorry, I'm being kinda slow...

Originally Posted by Shift

No, you are typically not paralyzed during NREM.

Which would add up with my understanding of NREM, which is that strange head space where your justing thinking thinking thinking trying to tie up a problem or some such. But your not running around an imaginary dreamworld!


I sometimes find I dip into NREM after a REM dream. When I'm trying to remember a dream I slip back under. Next thing I know I've spend 1/2 an hour doing so.

Originally Posted by moonshine

I sometimes find I dip into NREM after a REM dream. When I'm trying to remember a dream I slip back under. Next thing I know I've spend 1/2 an hour doing so.

That sounds like me trying to do a WILD. I guess I need to work on my timing...

Whoever's trying to WILD any time, are you guys doing anything different from a regular WILD, or are you just trying to WILD when you first go to bed?

Can you just NOT quote me from now on? If you're going to put out these hypotheses and etc., find some real evidence or something and don't associate what I'm saying with what you're saying. I'm talking about NREM dreams. I have no idea what you're talking about but I don't want to be associated with it. Dig up your own evidence from legit sources and build a case for your ideas.

...Okay, never mind then. I don't see why you're mad all of a sudden; you could have just told me if I was bugging you.

As for what I was saying, maybe I wasn't very clear, but I was pretty much pointing out the obvious: if you're paralyzed during REM, then it isn't physically possible for you to be walking around (sleepwalking) because you're paralyzed. So if you can't be sleepwalking during REM, then you must be sleepwalking while you're not in REM. That's all I was saying; I don't see how it needs to be backed up with anything other than the fact that you're paralyzed during REM sleep. But I've gotten off-topic, so I'll stop now.

According to Stephen LaBerge's book "Lucid Dreaming: The power of being awake and aware in your dreams", you can dream in both NREM and REM

Originally Posted by Hidden

...Okay, never mind then. I don't see why you're mad all of a sudden; you could have just told me if I was bugging you.

As for what I was saying, maybe I wasn't very clear, but I was pretty much pointing out the obvious: if you're paralyzed during REM, then it isn't physically possible for you to be walking around (sleepwalking) because you're paralyzed. So if you can't be sleepwalking during REM, then you must be sleepwalking while you're not in REM. That's all I was saying; I don't see how it needs to be backed up with anything other than the fact that you're paralyzed during REM sleep. But I've gotten off-topic, so I'll stop now.

Its a very good point. If your not in SP during NREM then if you had proper dreams you should be acting out your dreams.


http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1793

Although some superficial dreams occur during NREM sleep, most real dreams occur during the REM stage of the sleep cycle. There are marked differences between NREM dreams and REM dreams. NREM dreams tend to be anchored in reality and experienced as a semiconscious state of serenity. REM dreams are markedly "bizarre", lacking common sense, logic and often characterized by quick transitions in plot and setting. Often, when a person is awakened from REM sleep, they remember vividly the events of their dreams.

It may be that NREM dreams are "thinking" dreams. The kind of visualisations and thoughts we have whilst day dreaming.
So for example you may be remember an event, and even putting a "what if" spin on it, imagining different outcomes,
but you're not actually inhabiting the dream, so have no need for SP to stop you running around in the real world.

ahh now it makes sense!!!
thnx for asking that question which finally got answered properly

I can remember i had a dream during NREM sleep it was very very blurred and dark it was like a half finished painting there were holes all over that opened into endless black pits.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

That is a great point about "inhabiting the dream," moonshine. I know exactly what you are talking about.

I'm still a little confused, also about how you can dream in NREM sleep, not have any kind of physical paralysis/atonia, but still keep from acting it out? Is "not inhabiting the dream" the only thing holding your back from sleepwalking? This goes back to what Thor was talking about a few months ago about low muscle tone vs. complete atonia. REM atonia vs. NREM atonia vs. NREM low muscle tone. The literature seems to be a little unclear about the details of these things.

I've just come to the conclusion that there are no real hard boundaries between different stages of sleep. There must be some overlap and wiggle room. How else do we explain the huge variety of experiences reported? Like Shift said, unless you hook yourself up to a monitor, there is no real way to know when you are in what stage of sleep. You have to rely on your experience, which can obviously be misleading. It is a dream, after all, a hallucination. It is hard enough to know when you are even dreaming. Pinpointing what stage of sleep you are in seems almost impossible.

hmm, I have to disagree with your final statement about it being impossible to pinpoint the stage of sleep you're in. If you use an EEG(if I'm not mistaken about the machine name) and then once you LD, you can use some kind of signal with your eyes, then the machine will record it. This was how Dr. LaBerge proved that Lucid Dreaming exists. Once you are awake, you can look at the EEG and find the peaks that correspond to your signal and determine the stage of sleep. Far as I know, you can move your eyes in REM, but, not sure about NREM. If you can't do so in NREM, then if the EEG doesn't pick up anything even though you did the signal, it means that you dreamt in NREM, because, if it was REM, then it would have picked it up, so, either way you'll find the stage you dreamt in

Originally Posted by The Legend

I can remember i had a dream during NREM sleep it was very very blurred and dark it was like a half finished painting there were holes all over that opened into endless black pits.

hmm, makes me wonder if my LD was in NREM and not REM. Why do I say this? Well, while the dream happened over 1-2 month ago if I'm not mistaken, it felt hazy which might have been the reason I realized that I was dreaming right off the bat with no RCs done

I wanted to add that I think its possible to get an LD outside of the REM cycle. One thing though, if you exercise and end up getting SP when you go to bed, could you WILD into a REM period or would it still be NREM?

Originally Posted by BigFan

hmm, I have to disagree with your final statement about it being impossible to pinpoint the stage of sleep you're in. If you use an EEG(if I'm not mistaken about the machine name) and then once you LD, you can use some kind of signal with your eyes, then the machine will record it. This was how Dr. LaBerge proved that Lucid Dreaming exists. Once you are awake, you can look at the EEG and find the peaks that correspond to your signal and determine the stage of sleep. Far as I know, you can move your eyes in REM, but, not sure about NREM. If you can't do so in NREM, then if the EEG doesn't pick up anything even though you did the signal, it means that you dreamt in NREM, because, if it was REM, then it would have picked it up, so, either way you'll find the stage you dreamt in

Well yes everyone knows this, we're talking about the average person sleeping in their bed at home with no such devices. If you don't have them, it's probably impossible. It may be possible to use one to learn what your NREM and REM dream differences are an guess later on when you're not using a machine. But basically, that's what we're saying- unless you have some sort of device, it's going to be impossible.

Originally Posted by Shift

Well yes everyone knows this, we're talking about the average person sleeping in their bed at home with no such devices. If you don't have them, it's probably impossible. It may be possible to use one to learn what your NREM and REM dream differences are an guess later on when you're not using a machine. But basically, that's what we're saying- unless you have some sort of device, it's going to be impossible.

oh, ok, yes, you're right then. Without a device, its likely impossible to learn if you dreamt in NREM or REM, but, with one, its pretty easy