Thread: Is it possible to enter an LD outside of a REM cycle?

Originally Posted by Hidden

...Okay, never mind then. I don't see why you're mad all of a sudden; you could have just told me if I was bugging you.

As for what I was saying, maybe I wasn't very clear, but I was pretty much pointing out the obvious: if you're paralyzed during REM, then it isn't physically possible for you to be walking around (sleepwalking) because you're paralyzed. So if you can't be sleepwalking during REM, then you must be sleepwalking while you're not in REM. That's all I was saying; I don't see how it needs to be backed up with anything other than the fact that you're paralyzed during REM sleep. But I've gotten off-topic, so I'll stop now.

Its a very good point. If your not in SP during NREM then if you had proper dreams you should be acting out your dreams.


http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1793

Although some superficial dreams occur during NREM sleep, most real dreams occur during the REM stage of the sleep cycle. There are marked differences between NREM dreams and REM dreams. NREM dreams tend to be anchored in reality and experienced as a semiconscious state of serenity. REM dreams are markedly "bizarre", lacking common sense, logic and often characterized by quick transitions in plot and setting. Often, when a person is awakened from REM sleep, they remember vividly the events of their dreams.

It may be that NREM dreams are "thinking" dreams. The kind of visualisations and thoughts we have whilst day dreaming.
So for example you may be remember an event, and even putting a "what if" spin on it, imagining different outcomes,
but you're not actually inhabiting the dream, so have no need for SP to stop you running around in the real world.

That is a great point about "inhabiting the dream," moonshine. I know exactly what you are talking about.

I'm still a little confused, also about how you can dream in NREM sleep, not have any kind of physical paralysis/atonia, but still keep from acting it out? Is "not inhabiting the dream" the only thing holding your back from sleepwalking? This goes back to what Thor was talking about a few months ago about low muscle tone vs. complete atonia. REM atonia vs. NREM atonia vs. NREM low muscle tone. The literature seems to be a little unclear about the details of these things.

I've just come to the conclusion that there are no real hard boundaries between different stages of sleep. There must be some overlap and wiggle room. How else do we explain the huge variety of experiences reported? Like Shift said, unless you hook yourself up to a monitor, there is no real way to know when you are in what stage of sleep. You have to rely on your experience, which can obviously be misleading. It is a dream, after all, a hallucination. It is hard enough to know when you are even dreaming. Pinpointing what stage of sleep you are in seems almost impossible.

It is impossible

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

I'm still a little confused, also about how you can dream in NREM sleep, not have any kind of physical paralysis/atonia, but still keep from acting it out?

Here you are assuming that any hallucinatory proprioceptive experience will necessarily lead to body movement, but that's an invalid assumption. For example, just as you could be hallucinate a pink elephant hovering in the air in front of you, you could hallucinate raising your arm, but that doesn't mean your arm has to actually move (or it wouldn't be a hallucination, would it?). The same holds true for hallucinatory experiences in sleep, also known as dreams. So it shouldn't be a mystery that you can have "inhabited" NREM dreams without acting them out.

So why then is atonia necessary to keep you from acting out your dreams in REM sleep? Well, bear in mind that the brain in REM sleep works in a very different way than in NREM sleep. It's probably safe to say that the difference between REM and NREM is as big as the difference between NREM and wakefulness. Just because atonia is necessary in REM sleep, there is nothing that implies that it's necessary in NREM sleep; the brain just works in a different way.

Originally Posted by Thor

Here you are assuming that any hallucinatory proprioceptive experience will necessarily lead to body movement, but that's an invalid assumption. For example, just as you could be hallucinate a pink elephant hovering in the air in front of you, you could hallucinate raising your arm, but that doesn't mean your arm has to actually move (or it wouldn't be a hallucination, would it?). The same holds true for hallucinatory experiences in sleep, also known as dreams. So it shouldn't be a mystery that you can have "inhabited" NREM dreams without acting them out.

So why then is atonia necessary to keep you from acting out your dreams in REM sleep? Well, bear in mind that the brain in REM sleep works in a very different way than in NREM sleep. It's probably safe to say that the difference between REM and NREM is as big as the difference between NREM and wakefulness. Just because atonia is necessary in REM sleep, there is nothing that implies that it's necessary in NREM sleep; the brain just works in a different way.

That seems a bit woolly to me thor. That theory would apply only if NREM and REM dreams were similar.

For what I've read they are not. NREM dreams have clearly been described, by scientists, as thoughtlike or daydreaming.
Which in my mind is a more credible reason for not needing SP during NREM sleep.

Originally Posted by moonshine

That seems a bit woolly to me thor. That theory would apply only if NREM and REM dreams were similar.

For what I've read they are not. NREM dreams have clearly been described, by scientists, as thoughtlike or daydreaming.
Which in my mind is a more credible reason for not needing SP during NREM sleep.

hmm, but, does it mean that you can remember the daydream if you wake from NREM, because, I can't and I am assuming most people can't either

Originally Posted by BigFan

hmm, but, does it mean that you can remember the daydream if you wake from NREM, because, I can't and I am assuming most people can't either

In point of fact you can. People woken in the lab during NREM do describe something.

Originally Posted by BigFan

hmm, but, does it mean that you can remember the daydream if you wake from NREM, because, I can't and I am assuming most people can't either

How do you know you were in NREM?

Originally Posted by moonshine

That seems a bit woolly to me thor. That theory would apply only if NREM and REM dreams were similar.

For what I've read they are not. NREM dreams have clearly been described, by scientists, as thoughtlike or daydreaming.
Which in my mind is a more credible reason for not needing SP during NREM sleep.

REM dreams are generally more vivid, and NREM dreams are generally more thoughtlike, so if you have a vivid dream it's most likely a REM dream, and if you have a thoughtlike dream it's most likely an NREM dream. However, a significant proportion of REM dreams are thoughtlike, and a significant proportion of NREM dreams are vivid. Yet, people do not act out vivid NREM dreams. (Well, they do in sleepwalking and night terrors, but those are anomalous anyway.)

I think asking why we have atonia only in REM sleep is the wrong question. In my opinion a more interesting question is: what is it about REM sleep that causes the brain to transmit nerve impulses to make the limbs move, thereby necessiating REM atonia?

As an aside, I don't understand why you say "thoughtlike or daydreaming", because daydreaming is very immersive and quite the oppsite of thoughtlike.

Originally Posted by Thor

REM dreams are generally more vivid, and NREM dreams are generally more thoughtlike, so if you have a vivid dream it's most likely a REM dream, and if you have a thoughtlike dream it's most likely an NREM dream. However, a significant proportion of REM dreams are thoughtlike, and a significant proportion of NREM dreams are vivid. Yet, people do not act out vivid NREM dreams. (Well, they do in sleepwalking and night terrors, but those are anomalous anyway.

Not convinced by that Thor. Most of what I've read indicates that NREM and REM dreams are quite different.

Originally Posted by Thor

I think asking why we have atonia only in REM sleep is the wrong question. In my opinion a more interesting question is: what is it about REM sleep that causes the brain to transmit nerve impulses to make the limbs move, thereby necessiating REM atonia?

The interesting answer is this: the fact that in REM you are inhabiting a 3D virtual world and so moving through it. Atonia stops your dream movements translating to real life.

Originally Posted by Thor

As an aside, I don't understand why you say "thoughtlike or daydreaming", because daydreaming is very immersive and quite the oppsite of thoughtlike.

Not really. Daydreaming is thinking. You can visualise whilst daydreaming, and I'm sure you can even visualise a model of yourself within daydreams.
But you do not inhabit the day dreams. Which in my mind is the critical difference.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Not really. Daydreaming is thinking. You can visualise whilst daydreaming, and I'm sure you can even visualise a model of yourself within daydreams.
But you do not inhabit the day dreams. Which in my mind is the critical difference.

As far as I can understand, daydreaming is no more thinking than dreaming is. Daydreaming is perception, though it is imagined. And I don't know about you, but I certainly inhabit my daydreams as much as I inhabit my dreams (maybe even more so). The crucial difference is that dreams are hallucinated, that is, perceived as real, whereas in daydreams you are aware that it's only your imagination.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Not convinced by that Thor. Most of what I've read indicates that NREM and REM dreams are quite different.

Well, they are statistically different, but even the most conservative researchers acknowledge that 5-10% of all NREM dream reports are indistinguishable from REM dream reports by any criterion.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

I've just come to the conclusion that there are no real hard boundaries between different stages of sleep. There must be some overlap and wiggle room. How else do we explain the huge variety of experiences reported?

Seems to me that you called it right RB!

Clearly, some NREM dreams are similar to REM dreams, so its a good job that Atonia kicks in outside of REM to prevent us running around in the dark.


http://learnmem.cshlp.org/content/11/6/671.full

Foulkes (1985) has argued for the existence of NREM dreaming and against a simple “REM sleep = dreaming” view. By simply changing the question asked of awakened subjects from “Did you dream?” to “Did you experience any mental content?,” Foulkes was able to show a far higher percentage of dream reports from NREM stages than original studies had suggested. These dream reports after NREM awakenings led Foulkes and others to conclude that the stream of consciousness never ceases during sleep and that the brain engages in cognitive activity of some sort during all sleep stages (Antrobus 1990).

Equally clearly, the above suggests that NREM activity can be more akin to simple thoughts.

looks like the transition from NREM to REM is more of a sliding scale than an on off switch.

My take on it is that science cannot prove that don't dream in non-rem sleep, so I think we do. These dreams are probably much harder to remember based on lower EEG frequencies. Ofcourse if you become lucid during a dream I guess that might bring you up to a rem like stage.

Wow, you guys really must have some time on your hands and must love to duke it out Anyways, to the OP, I do think it's possible to have an LD in a NREM cycle, but, not sure to the mechanism of this

Guys, seriously chill out. Not sure why you are all getting so caught up with something such as this

You're right. We did sort of hijack this thread. I'm going to close this and split it back into our old discussion on this topic that started here:
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=67632
And was closed, and then moved here:
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=67732

I don't want to close this to spite anyone, or "have the last word". I think there is good information here, but it might make more sense in the context of our previous discussion. Lets continue, where we already previously agreed to discuss this, here:
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=67732