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    1. #1
      Looking for you Arutad's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by mrdeano View Post
      You should devise an experiment with volunteers. It would be interesting to see the results
      You'd have to wait a long time, 2,400 repetitions are needed in FlyFree's opinion. Where would you even get volunteers to have 2,400 LDs just for one single purpose...

    2. #2
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      First off thanks for taking a look guys.

      Quote Originally Posted by mrdeano View Post
      You should devise an experiment with volunteers. It would be interesting to see the results
      If I get enough interest from several people- high frequency LDs - who would be interested in giving up a few weeks of LD's to test this I will.


      Now I thank you for your criticism and will address it now.

      Quote Originally Posted by Arutad View Post
      But how would you do it on purpose, using just your mind to trigger this feeling in a LD? That's what the topic starter is suggesting!
      This would be done the same way everything in a LD is done, by belief and the strength of your will. Fully expecting the result to occur from touching the trigger. That's why you use a LD to 'program' the response, as we don't have access to those states voluntarily when awake.



      Quote Originally Posted by Arutad View Post
      You'd have to wait a long time, 2,400 repetitions are needed in FlyFree's opinion. Where would you even get volunteers to have 2,400 LDs just for one single purpose...
      Although I assume 2400 repetitions it may well be less for states your very familiar with.

      However 2400 repetitions would not require 2400 LD's, as the proccess of activating the 'on' trigger, and then the 'off' trigger could be repeated several times in one LD.

      It's for that very reason I say high frequency Lucid dreamers would be best to test it, as they could get the necessary repetitions in a short time.
      As an example we will say that the on/off sequence can be done in a min( I think it could be done alot faster as you get comfortable with bringing the state on) In 1hr of LDing throughout the night you have achieved 60 of these repetitions. So you can have 420 repetitions done in 7 LD's. For the naturals who are having over an hour of lucidity time a night they can have the repetitions done in about a month.

      Please bear in mind that the process of coding the response will get faster each time, and could easily be brought down to having the on/off sequence done in 20seconds after a few hundred repetitions have been preformed.
      At this speed the coding could be done in under two weeks.

      Hope that helps

      Any more questions I'm more than happy to answer.

      Anybody out there who would be up for giving this a shot?

      Many Thanks
      FlyFree

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      This is really an amazing post. I think the only people who could do this experiment are very frequent LDers who have more than 3 LDs per night.

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      Member cdde323's Avatar
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      I'm not 100% sure on this, as in, It's likely I could be proven wrong, but I just don't see this happening.

      Any kind of high or buzz in a dream is soley based off a memory and the effects are nothing but an illusion to consciousness. The altered states that alcohol or marijuana bring on in waking life is not brought on by a memory of being drunk or some type of imaginary habit. I've never seen anyone, ever, at any point in time claim they can bring on the feeling of being high or drunk at will. I'm sure there some crazy people out there who claims they can, but I'm speaking about the general public or anyone with a face, not a "I know a guy who knows a guy" type deal. No one can do this becuase it's cause by chemical reactions to an outside influence. It's not magic, something from the outside world is entering our bodies and is physically causing the abnormalities that make us intoxicated, it's not something you can transfer from an "anything goes" world to a world with rules. All my opinion... and again, I'm very capable of being wrong. =D

    5. #5
      Looking for you Arutad's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by FlyFree View Post
      This would be done the same way everything in a LD is done, by belief and the strength of your will. Fully expecting the result to occur from touching the trigger. That's why you use a LD to 'program' the response, as we don't have access to those states voluntarily when awake.
      Please see the post above from cdde323. That's what I've been trying to say, but he said it much better.

      It all boils down to: how do you trigger a certain feeling at will? LDing doesn't grant magical powers. For instance, you may happen to feel drunk in an LD if you started out from a normal dream about being drunk, but let's say you aren't that lucky and feel sober instead. How do you make yourself feel drunk then, with the effort of will only?

      Maybe you can give us a working example of what you have in mind.

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      Once again guys, thanks for the responses.

      Ill know take a look at the latest criticisms.



      Quote Originally Posted by cdde323 View Post

      Any kind of high or buzz in a dream is solely based off a memory and the effects are nothing but an illusion to consciousness. The altered states that alcohol or marijuana bring on in waking life is not brought on by a memory of being drunk or some type of imaginary habit.
      Right then cdde323, I first need to thank you for raising a good point, upon writing the post I had considered something similar to this problem but then forgot about it.

      Anyway with regards to replicating substance induced states, I both agree and disagree with your post. I agree that in the dream state the feelings of drunkenness are a product of your memory rather than an actual physiological response to a foreign substance.

      However the placebo affect has been documented several times in real life.
      I will briefly touch upon one example in relation to alcohol. In this study 2 groups of students were given tonic and lime, One group was told and led to believe they were drinking vodka and lime. The study states the 'vodka' group acted drunk throughout the study.

      "When students were told the true nature of the experiment at the completion of the study, many were amazed that they had only received plain tonic, insisting that they had felt drunk at the time."

      This leads me to believe that having our brains vividly recreate the memory of such a state whilst in a dream. We can condition ourselves to trigger the same memory in waking life at will. So you won't actually be drunk but for all intents and purposes you might as well be.

      Furthermore with regards to certain emotional states I feel that the physiological response can be triggered if our body is capable of creating it naturally. As an example Stephen LaBerge proved that a LD orgasm had real physiological effects.

      'The subject reported a lucid dream in which she carried out the experimental task exactly as agreed upon. Data analysis revealed a significant correspondence between her subjective report and all but one of the autonomic measures; during the 15 second orgasm epoch, mean levels for VEMG activity, VPA, SCL, and respiration rate reached their highest values and were significantly elevated compared to means for other REM epochs. Contrary to expectation, heart rate increased only slightly and non-significantly. '

      Now im being purely hypothetical now but i would argue that we could safely assume that if a dream orgasm can have such effect being happy or sad in a dream will equally affect us physiologically. Now if this is true and being extremely happy in a LD causes an chemical to be fired in our brains then its very likely that we can condition our body's to repeat this at a trigger of our choice. In the same way that Pavlov conditioned his dogs to salivate when he rang a bell

      I'm interested to see what your take is on this cdde323.

      Quote Originally Posted by Arutad View Post

      It all boils down to: how do you trigger a certain feeling at will? LDing doesn't grant magical powers. For instance, you may happen to feel drunk in an LD if you started out from a normal dream about being drunk, but let's say you aren't that lucky and feel sober instead. How do you make yourself feel drunk then, with the effort of will only?
      Arutad I read your post two ways, the first I believe I have already answered above. Ill answer as if it's the other now.

      When in a lucid dream and you see a door, you instantly know that it must go somewhere, you open it and VOILA your taken somewhere different from your current location. Why does this happen? It happens because you expect the door to take you somewhere. Your brain has been conditioned to know doors take you places so you fully believe that it will.

      However when you start to experiment with more advanced dream control such as flying, teleporting or breathing underwater you may not succeed at first Why not? Purely because you don't fully believe it would work. As you gain confidence in knowing you control the dreamscape so do you control these powers, simply because you believe you can.

      So in answer to your question, to feel drunk at the touch of body part you must believe it will work with the same certainty that doors lead somewhere.

      Think I covered the points you both raised, if not don't hesitate to tell me. Your helping develop what has the potential to be a very practical idea.

      Hope this isn't too long a post. Really hope to hear back from you guys.
      Still hoping for interest from naturals.


      References
      Placebo affect with regards to alcohol :
      http://www.psychologicalscience.org/...2/pr021224.cfm
      Stephen LaBerge's study on dream orgasm- halfway down page:
      http://www.lucidity.com/SleepAndCognition.html
      Pavlov's Dogs - a clear overview:
      http://psychology.about.com/od/class...vlovs-dogs.htm

    7. #7
      Member cdde323's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by FlyFree View Post
      I'm interested to see what your take is on this cdde323.
      That's like handing me a crossword puzzle. I warn you, I'm good at being a pessimist, over analyzing and nit picking =D

      <begin wikipedia knowledge>

      Alcohol raises the levels of dopamine in your brain, fortunately, a lot of things in life have this same effect. Including just plain ol' thought...

      Dopamine has a controlling hold over a lot of the body/mind functions that are altered with alcohol consumption. It seems reasonable that with the power of thought, you should be able to produce some and/or minor effects of alcohol. I think that's where it ends though... The students were in college, they were being offered free liquor in a bar setting and they were in a group of their peers. So many different factors were contributing to the meme of getting drunk, it makes sense a placebo could result in a huge spike of dopamine. Perform that same experiment with a more "general public" sampling and keep them separated, I have a feeling you'd get vastly different results.

      I can keep on going (dunno if I should.)

      A sort of counter-punch to you "drunk button" idea is that dopamine also controls your reward system. By default, you are rewarded by good... unexpected things. This is why a good song will truly never be as good as the first time you heard it, those virgin ears caused a huge surge in dopamine and you simply aren't programmed to like something over and over and over.

      If you, being very enthusiastic with this idea, went through the dream time to do this yourself. NEVER testing it in waking life until that one day you had completed all 2400 repetitions. On that day, all your buddies are surrounding you, you're in a bar, everyone is drunk except you and... You press the "drunk button". You might uhmmm... crack a smile. (Haha... I'm just kidding =D) No, you might feel something, but I don't expect you to feel what I think you are picturing in your head. There might be a dopamine spike because of all the built up faith and anticipation you've put into this meme. I don't expect it to work the next day though... or any time in the future.

      Now! If it did work and was repeatable, I would totally be the first person in line to invest his time. I'd press the drunk button when I got out of the car to pump gas... Let's just hope I would remember to turn it off.

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