Thread: The one base rule for lucidity

I could be convinced of this. I do always have the feeling I am just tricking myself into becoming lucid. It is like I have to work to trick my subconscious (or whatever you want to call it) into making me realize I'm dreaming.

WILD is similar. Even after years of WILD experience, I still sometimes fail for no apparent reason.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

I could be convinced of this. I do always have the feeling I am just tricking myself into becoming lucid. It is like I have to work to trick my subconscious (or whatever you want to call it) into making me realize I'm dreaming.

WILD is similar. Even after years of WILD experience, I still sometimes fail for no apparent reason.

Don't use the term "sub-conscious". It's a new age BS term that doesn't actually exist (but it's used extensively by most everyone, to mean nothing in particular =/). Just a tip if you want to be taken seriously in any academic interests XD. (Don't take offense, I don't expect anyone on this site to know things like this)

I'm using "unconscious" essentially to mean that which isn't covered by your consciousness =)

yep, I understand your point.
I think that LD is caused by two things(except WILDS of course)
-Placebo
-Conditioning

I have nothing to say about placebo.
about conditioning, I think that the dream brain is a muscle, and it needs works, the more you excercise it(recalling dreams, improving memory, trying mild) the stronger it becomes. but yes, I know people you can LD without excercising something, and that's when this hypotesis die.
really, I don't know what causes lucidity on the dream world.
I think is the waking up of the logic part of the brain, the question is ¿Why does the logic part of the brain fall asleep and why does it wake up randomly in the middle of the dream? I think is about schemata...the brain recognices some pattern and the logic part wakes up.
I Don't know°!

Originally Posted by Mariano

yep, I understand your point.
I think that LD is caused by two things(except WILDS of course)
-Placebo
-Conditioning

I have nothing to say about placebo.
about conditioning, I think that the dream brain is a muscle, and it needs works, the more you excercise it(recalling dreams, improving memory, trying mild) the stronger it becomes. but yes, I know people you can LD without excercising something, and that's when this hypotesis die.
really, I don't know what causes lucidity on the dream world.
I think is the waking up of the logic part of the brain, the question is ¿Why does the logic part of the brain fall asleep and why does it wake up randomly in the middle of the dream? I think is about schemata...the brain recognices some pattern and the logic part wakes up.
I Don't know°!

you have a good point with asking why logic goes out the window and how all the sudden, the logic part gets triggered in the middle of a dream, becoming lucid, although, lucidity is not congruous with logic.

why not ? why isn't congruous with logic? you need to logic to become lucid.

Wait... what?

Originally Posted by Mariano

why not ? why isn't congruous with logic? you need to logic to become lucid.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. You need consciousness for lucidity. You have logic already in normal dreams. It is simply non-conscious.

I completely agree with your theory, arby, and I have based myself off this assumption to this day for my quest through Lucid Dreaming.

Thinking about it, lucidity must come (assuming a DILD) from non-lucidity, that is the situation where all the processes and thoughts are going about at an unconscious level, like the knowledge of the fact you're dreaming, or the development of the dream scape and dream themes. If some of it was conscious, by definition one would know it is a dream, thus (s)he would be lucid. So, if anything would make us lucid, it must come from unconscious thoughts and processes, like habits, or beliefs.

The same thing can be said for WILDs, since conscious thoughts keep the mind and body awake, and thus there is the need for something more subtle.

In fact, I came to the conclusion that awareness would be one of the main roads to lucidity. Awareness means being more conscious of what's going on around you, and of course, what's going on in the dream is the dream itself, thus you would more easily recognize it as such.

I agree also.

Haha, is there anyone who doesn't agree? I honestly expected more back and forth debate.

let me say something.
I think we already know how to become lucid....and stephen laberge's taught about this.
Dreams are form by expectations and motivation.
When we become lucid in dreams by schemata, is because we already conditioned to think or react like that before in our daily life.
I don't think techniques have a direct impact...you are only making connections between what's important and what makes you lucid.

Originally Posted by arby

Haha, is there anyone who doesn't agree? I honestly expected more back and forth debate.

Is this necessarily a bad thing? That shows there was awareness of the fact at some level in the community, so bringing it to surface can only speed up the thought process in developing a right mindset.

What is the unconscious and how is conscious thought different from unconscious?

Also, the statement "Each person's unconscious and schema are diverse enough" - have you any support for it?

If that would not be the case then your theory would have difficulty.

Originally Posted by gaia

What is the unconscious and how is conscious thought different from unconscious?

Also, the statement "Each person's unconscious and schema are diverse enough" - have you any support for it?

If that would not be the case then your theory would have difficulty.

Conscious thought essentially encapsulates everything you are aware of and everything that you directly cause through a decision you are aware of. (at least, that is how I use it here. the actual definition of conscious gets... messy....). AS stated above, unconscious is used to represent everything that is not conscious thought (ie, you are not aware of it, which is not the same as being aware of the result effects, mind you.)

For diverse schemata, nothing rigorous either, I just thought this was commonly believed. Our past experiences shape our schemata and we all have different past experiences. Thus our schema differ. This is best seen between different cultures but examples are everywhere.

Good questions =)

Originally Posted by Tosxychor

Is this necessarily a bad thing? That shows there was awareness of the fact at some level in the community, so bringing it to surface can only speed up the thought process in developing a right mindset.

Yeah, it's made me believe more strongly in the theory.

And also the community too. This topic is keeping more logical and less ignorant than expected.

Originally Posted by arby

Don't use the term "sub-conscious". It's a new age BS term that doesn't actually exist (but it's used extensively by most everyone, to mean nothing in particular =/). Just a tip if you want to be taken seriously in any academic interests XD. (Don't take offense, I don't expect anyone on this site to know things like this)

I'm using "unconscious" essentially to mean that which isn't covered by your consciousness =)

Actually, the words "subconscious" and "unconscious" can be used interchangeably. From an etymology standpoint, subconscious merely means anything that is below the scope of conscious awareness. In this context, it is completely synonymous with "unconscious," and doesn't denote anything new-agey, at all.

Just thought I'd throw that in there. As far as everything else, I do pretty much agree...but only on the same level that almost anything else that you want 100% duplicability from, is based largely on subconscious/unconscious actions.

When you learn to play an instrument, getting more proficient has much less to do with "thinking" about everything you're doing. It comes with muscle-memory, and other subconscious/unconscious actions. Indeed, those who "over-think" what they are trying to do, usually end up failing - much like lucid dreaming. Most talents of that sort are only most replicable when they have become learned responses. A martial artist will usually only perform to his maximum ability, when he acts "without thought" - when his body just "does what it's been conditioned to do."

But while that artist is learning those responses - while he is conditioning his body to do what it's supposed to do - he can try and try again, repeating the same conscious processes over and over, and still have a hit-or-miss success rate. I don't see lucid dreaming as being any different.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Actually, the words "subconscious" and "unconscious" can be used interchangeably. From an etymology standpoint, subconscious merely means anything that is below the scope of conscious awareness. In this context, it is completely synonymous with "unconscious," and doesn't denote anything new-agey, at all.

Just thought I'd throw that in there. As far as everything else, I do pretty much agree...but only on the same level that almost anything else that you want 100% duplicability from, is based largely on subconscious/unconscious actions.

When you learn to play an instrument, getting more proficient has much less to do with "thinking" about everything you're doing. It comes with muscle-memory, and other subconscious/unconscious actions. Indeed, those who "over-think" what they are trying to do, usually end up failing - much like lucid dreaming. Most talents of that sort are only most replicable when they have become learned responses. A martial artist will usually only perform to his maximum ability, when he acts "without thought" - when his body just "does what it's been conditioned to do."

But while that artist is learning those responses - while he is conditioning his body to do what it's supposed to do - he can try and try again, repeating the same conscious processes over and over, and still have a hit-or-miss success rate. I don't see lucid dreaming as being any different.

Yeah.. you would all know what I meant but it seriously has no definition. I cringe when people use it because it's usually an indicator they have no clue what they're talking about (people who know about the mind properly will usually use the right words). Wikipedia actually sums the whole situation up nicely.

Anyhow, schematics aside... You are saying that lucidity is just "hard" and therefore we cannot do it well. Thus, we need to train ourselves to get better? (this is what I gather from what you wrote)

This is a very valid theory. The immediate implications I see if this were true would be:

- There exists some conscious way to become lucid without fail if you are "good enough"

- The number of lucids you get is some increasing function of how much you have gotten lucid already (ie. the more lucids you've had, the more you get)

Very interesting

Originally Posted by arby

Anyhow, schematics aside... You are saying that lucidity is just "hard" and therefore we cannot do it well. Thus, we need to train ourselves to get better? (this is what I gather from what you wrote)

This is a very valid theory. The immediate implications I see if this were true would be:

- There exists some conscious way to become lucid without fail if you are "good enough"

- The number of lucids you get is some increasing function of how much you have gotten lucid already (ie. the more lucids you've had, the more you get)

Very interesting

Hmm. Well, yes and no. While I believe they have similar factors, I don't think something that is so predominantly mental can be completely analogous to things like martial arts, beyond the point that I do think that there can be steps made to make the attainment of lucidity more frequent.

When it comes to "perfecting" the ability, though - to the point where anytime you want to have one, you can have one - I'm a little skeptical (even though I know there are people here who claim to be able to do just that). The reason being is because there is so much involved in dreaming that IS unconscious. It's not like moving your arm here, or placing your foot there. It is more about directing the physiology of your brain, which I believe is much more difficult to do.

There are just so many factors that can influence what your brain does at what time; and how it reacts to what stimuli; and what affect (if any) the unconscious schema floating around in the back of your mind will have on your attempts at recognizing the dream state. It depends on things like how sharp you are, at any given moment. Are you ill? Is your mind cloudy? Are you depressed about something? Are you anxious about something you have to do tomorrow? Was that chick that sits across from you at work giving you signs, earlier? Yadda yadda yadda...

To this extent, it is still much like the more physical things (such as martial arts) in that those are all variables that might affect your chances of success, but I believe those variables are much more dire, when it comes to things like lucid dreaming, and other matters of consciousness. If you catch a stray thought, while trying to break a board with your hand, your form may be sloppy, but the board might still be broken. If a thought strays, while you're trying to induce lucidity, you're likely to slip passively through the dream state, and lose all chance of succeeding. I believe that the margin for error is much slimmer.

So, I really don't know if it's possible to gain total control over when and how you gain lucidity. Sure, you can increase your chances, exponentially, through practice, but can it be "perfected?" That, I'm much less certain of.

Originally Posted by arby

Don't use the term "sub-conscious". It's a new age BS term that doesn't actually exist (but it's used extensively by most everyone, to mean nothing in particular =/). Just a tip if you want to be taken seriously in any academic interests XD. (Don't take offense, I don't expect anyone on this site to know things like this)

I'm using "unconscious" essentially to mean that which isn't covered by your consciousness =)

Sub-conscious and unconscious are essentially the same thing. What you call a bs term "sub-conscious" just means it is a sub-level of consciousness. It is is a label established by Psychology, which it isn't new age unless you want to say Psychology in general is new age. It is just more descriptive to prevent confusion in the utilization of words. If you want to be taken seriously in any academic interests, you will resourcefully apply either one in specific scenarios.

P.S. Word of the wise, don't egocentrically bull shit people.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Hmm. Well, yes and no. While I believe they have similar factors, I don't think something that is so predominantly mental can be completely analogous to things like martial arts, beyond the point that I do think that there can be steps made to make the attainment of lucidity more frequent.

When it comes to "perfecting" the ability, though - to the point where anytime you want to have one, you can have one - I'm a little skeptical (even though I know there are people here who claim to be able to do just that). The reason being is because there is so much involved in dreaming that IS unconscious. It's not like moving your arm here, or placing your foot there. It is more about directing the physiology of your brain, which I believe is much more difficult to do.

There are just so many factors that can influence what your brain does at what time; and how it reacts to what stimuli; and what affect (if any) the unconscious schema floating around in the back of your mind will have on your attempts at recognizing the dream state. It depends on things like how sharp you are, at any given moment. Are you ill? Is your mind cloudy? Are you depressed about something? Are you anxious about something you have to do tomorrow? Was that chick that sits across from you at work giving you signs, earlier? Yadda yadda yadda...

To this extent, it is still much like the more physical things (such as martial arts) in that those are all variables that might affect your chances of success, but I believe those variables are much more dire, when it comes to things like lucid dreaming, and other matters of consciousness. If you catch a stray thought, while trying to break a board with your hand, your form may be sloppy, but the board might still be broken. If a thought strays, while you're trying to induce lucidity, you're likely to slip passively through the dream state, and lose all chance of succeeding. I believe that the margin for error is much slimmer.

So, I really don't know if it's possible to gain total control over when and how you gain lucidity. Sure, you can increase your chances, exponentially, through practice, but can it be "perfected?" That, I'm much less certain of.

I never said any one person would ever actually be able to induce lucidity consciously (if there were such a way). Instead, such a way would be technically possible even if it were never properly achieved perfectly in practice (I could say that it's possible for me to remember pi to a million decimal places, but I'll never do it because it's sufficiently "hard"). I agree that if there exists a fully conscious method, it is very hard and doubtful it can be perfected to the extent that you could (in practice) do it on demand without fail.

EDIT: also, there can exist a conscious method for one-self which does not matter for the first theorem in this thread (it would be valid with or without unconscious implications because the tech would be tailored to trigger your unconscious properly). And you might be able to do this tech perfectly. The real question of the thread is: can other people do this tech?

Originally Posted by ArcanumNoctis

Sub-conscious and unconscious are essentially the same thing. What you call a bs term "sub-conscious" just means it is a sub-level of consciousness. It is is a label established by Psychology, which it isn't new age unless you want to say Psychology in general is new age. It is just more descriptive to prevent confusion in the utilization of words. If you want to be taken seriously in any academic interests, you will resourcefully apply either one in specific scenarios.

P.S. Word of the wise, don't egocentrically bull shit people.

You obviously have never received any formal education in the matter or even followed my link.... and seriously? "Established by psychology"? Way to attribute roots when you actually have no idea where a word comes from.

Originally Posted by arby

Don't use the term "sub-conscious". It's a new age BS term that doesn't actually exist (but it's used extensively by most everyone, to mean nothing in particular =/). Just a tip if you want to be taken seriously in any academic interests XD. (Don't take offense, I don't expect anyone on this site to know things like this)

I'm using "unconscious" essentially to mean that which isn't covered by your consciousness =)

I'd just point out that theoretically not all skills can be perfected in practice, even if the steps comprising them are perfectly understood.

For example, an expert practitioner of golf - or billiards, etc - may exhaustively understand the physics and postural adjustments needed to hit a hole-in-one. Depending on their skill, they may be able to accomplish that goal quite often. Yet it would be unrealistic to expect them to do so every time. This very impossibility is what makes it into a sport, rather than an exercise in engineering.

This example suggests that, though a perfect method (hitting the ball exactly-so) may theoretically exist, one's own fallibility makes that perfection unattainable. An analogy between this and non-disruptively observing and entering hypnagoguic imagery could be made.

On the other hand, some skills can be effectively mastered. The simpler operations of blacksmithing can be done a thousand times without any error save that caused by fluke.

Originally Posted by arby

You obviously have never received any formal education in the matter or even followed my link.... and seriously? "Established by psychology"? Way to attribute roots when you actually have no idea where a word comes from.

Actually, I've have somewhat of a formal education, but all the education in the world can't help an individual devoid of intellect. I'll help you educate people on the word "sub-conscious".

I pulled this from www.dictionary.com, since you like sources like wikipedia, which aren't reliable sources.

Word Origin & History

subconscious:
"1823, "not wholly conscious" (implied in subconsciously), from sub- + conscious. First attested in De Quincey. The noun, in the psychological sense, is attested from 1886; earlier subconsciousness (1874)."

Roughly 100-130 years old is why some people consider it new age. That is not too long after "Psychology" was founded. It is used in the psychological sense, which logically it's origin is from Psychology.

I must be confused, why don't you enlighten me as to what you meant?

Originally Posted by Beeyahoi

?

About the "subconscious" discussion - I agree with arby, in a way.
Subconscious is indeed a word that has been used by various groups, with somewhat different meanings - the "New Age BS" arby was referring to has to do with Law of Attraction and similar, that consider the Subconscious a powerful, separate entity from the Conscious.
That is probably a level arby didn't want to take the dialogue to, and so it is better to use the word unconscious, just to avoid misunderstandings of sort.


Besides, about the whole perfectioning discussion, I believed too there would be limits to LDing, but I've seen too much to still stand by that point. There are people who are lucid every night, and more than so, have forgotten what a non-lucid is, since years ago. A namely example would be Writerscube. But there's even more that that.
Some Dream Yoga monks have perfected their control over dreams, that they are lucid while awake too. There are Nagual shamans who are dreaming while awake.
I can't sadly bring evidence to this, because I forgot the sources, but that's completely out the point I'd like to make.

The real point is, whenever I thought some level of skills would be the non-plus-ultra, I read of someone who had gone well past that. So I'm asking a question, what's the point of putting limits in front of yourself in the first place? To hamper yourself in your possible achievements?

"Everybody knows a certain thing is unrealisable, until somebody unaware of this comes and invents it." - Albert Einstein

Who has the right to say where perfection stands? We have started to explore the Lucid Dreaming world systematically only recently, so any limit we put in front of ourselves cannot be confirmed yet, thus there's no real reason to put it in the first place, is it? If one wants to go as far as (s)he can, (s)he has only to give his/her best, and see where one ends up.

Originally Posted by Tosxychor

There are people who are lucid every night, and more than so, have forgotten what a non-lucid is, since years ago.

I fall into this category too. I have always been able to Lucid. I've never used any techniques, it's just been an ability of mine. So how does the theory of it being an unconscious thing? If until maybe 15 years ago I didn't even have a name for this thing but knew about it and could do it, how could that be anything other than something which exists in everyone? And there are other naturals out there, so I am hardly an exception.

What I would say is that perhaps this is along the right lines for people who aren't natural. Perhaps the process of the thought of being lucid being lodged in the unconscious triggers or trips something.

My personal belief is that something far stranger is happening. Possibly related to the Quantum Entanglement stuff which has recently been exhibited to exist in the brain. But that is more for the BD section