The 2012 'Paradigm Shift.' Is it in its beginning stages?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...meditation.jpg

Ok. First of all, it needs to be said that this thread is a for a serious discussion of the facts about things that are going on in the world right now. This is not a place for believers to say "See, I told you! It's happening! 2012 is coming and will affect us all!!" just as it is not a place for disbelievers to come in with their "Uh-oh. Tin foil hat alert! Magic does not exist, therefore this is invalid!" rhetoric. To put it simply; if you cannot discuss this subject maturely and/or without being a complete douche-bag about it (and I know that some people can't), then you don't deserve to take part in this conversation, and you will be 'asked' to leave it.

With that out of the way, let's get down to it.

What are some of the theories about 2012? How has it been interpreted over the years. Some have said it's the end of the world. Some say it is a global paradigm shift; a transition into enlightenment; a period of 'awakening' into global consciousness. Some say it will be the second coming of Christ.' Are there any others that I'm missing?

Personally, I have never been one to believe in any of this - specifically the parts about the 'end of the world,' and the 'second coming of Christ. I have always been interested in the aspect of a paradigm shift, but have been completely skeptical about it. Now, though, my skepticism of the latter is waning. It's not that I believe current events are actually linked to the 'prophecy' - it could be pure coincidence, of course - but the timing and implications of all the unrest in the Middle East is something that can't easily be ignored. These events are quite significant, and fall a little above the realm of 'well, crazy stuff happens all the time' (IMHO). At the very least, they deserve some unbiased, open-minded analysis. What fascinates me the most is how easily these events can be interpreted to fit both of the latter theories I mentioned above:

Global Paradigm Shift / Awareness:
More and more people / cultures are beginning to stand up for their human rights, and the fever is spreading like wildfire. Thanks to technology, one uprising is leading to many, and people are beginning to get a feeling of their own self-worth, whom have never had it before. The sullen, uninspired lifestyle of living under dictatorial rule seems to be growing less and less tolerable, around the few remaining corners of the world where it still exists. There is a bit of an 'awakening,' in that people are becoming more aware of their power to change their lives and social situations.

Second Coming of Christ / Rapture:
Before I get too far into this, let me say that I am not a religious person. At all. I figure the Bible to be a book of proposed lifestyle guidelines, by way of metaphor, and not a literal translation of things that will physically come to pass (though there have been some strange 'coincidences,' over the years). Now, taking that into consideration: What is Christ? What is the word of Christ? What are Christ's principles? As I have come to believe, it is about love. It is about interacting socially with each other and displaying a sense of brotherhood to all, regardless of who they are or where they are. It is about empathy. About separating the lines between "you and me;" "us and them." Within these flames of revolution, we are seeing much of this. We are seeing people from all over the world showing a profound outpouring of affection and admiration for these people whom are trying to win their freedom. People are starting to wake up to the fact that, just because there are dictators in certain corners of the world, not all of the people of those regions share the same paradigms as those dictators. It is an increase in Christ's philosophy, as opposed to the evils of oppression and dictatorial rule.

I think all of this is very interesting. The timing, as I said, is fascinating - that it should happen now - after all of this time, and how it looks to be a domino effect that doesn't seem to be showing any signs of containing itself, as yet. Another thing I find interesting is that this is all starting / happening in the epicenter of the human species. The 'Cradle of Mankind,' as some would call it.

For such wild, metaphysical predictions to coincide so greatly with actual events is rare, to say the least, and I can't help but to be intrigued by it. So I just wanted to start some discussion on it. Does anyone have anything to add? Whether you are a true believer or a skeptic (as I am), contribute what you will. However - and I will say this again - check your arrogance at the door. This thread is for tempered discussion, not dissent, egoism nor (if possible) ignorance.

Aaannnd GO!

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, or a spiritualist, or religious, or anything like that. But I do enjoy discussing or reading about things like prophecies, mysterious cultures and all the other stuff that seems to be apart of the whole 2012 conspiracy thing. Although I don't really believe any of it, it interests me nonetheless.

These protests taking place all over the Middle East are getting a lot of attention, and with good reason. Countries that once accepted the rule of tyrannical dictators are suddenly rebelling and crying out for freedom. It's like the people have lost their fear. As far as I know, two countries, Tunisia and Egypt, have already brought down their governments. And the oppressed people of surrounding countries have been inspired by this. They're getting more and more rebellious against their own corrupt governments and are also taking to the streets in protest. The people of these countries want democracy and I hope they get it. Democracy isn't perfect. There is no perfect way to run a society. But one thing is for sure, a democracy is a hell of a lot better than a dictatorship.

It's all happening incredibly fast. In the past, evil empires, dictatorships and authoritarian governments took years, decades, even centuries to bring down. But now, it's all happening in a matter of weeks! With the speed and power of this intense spread, could we actually see the toppling of all the world's dictatorships within our lifetime? I've heard a great many 2012 conspiracy theorists say we are living in a time of extreme change. By some crazy coincidence, the world seems to be dramatically changing. I mean, okay, "time of extreme change" is quite vague and could mean anything really, but the timing appears to be perfect.

Now, I still don't believe any of the conspiracy theories and I'm not going to be sitting in a homemade bunker wearing a tinfoil hat any time soon. But whether it fits in with ancient prophecy or not, there is a lot of amazing stuff going on in the world right now and we should be paying attention. History is unfolding before our eyes.

The world is always changing. Perhaps it is changing more than average at the moment (although to be honest I can easily name events as big as this or bigger within pretty much any historical decade), but for any rational person the year 2012 in itself has nothing to do with anything and is not worth discussing.

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Originally Posted by Xei

but for any rational person the year 2012 in itself has nothing to do with anything and is not worth discussing.

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Couldn't resist, could you? I knew it wouldn't take long :roll:

Thanks for your "contribution," Xei.
(And for your subtle insult to my rationality. By the way, for all other posters, the above quote is a perfect example of how not to respond to this topic.)

Anybody else?

I don't get it, what is your actual point?

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Originally Posted by Xei

I don't get it, what is your actual point?

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As to what? The thread? There is no 'point,' as I'm not making a statement.

The purpose of the thread is to compare the many facets of the 2012 theory(ies) to current events, to see how well they fit. Whether or not you (or anyone else) believes in the theories is irrelevant. And trying direct appeals to ridicule by throwing out statements like the one I quoted above (on either side) is, frankly, beneath anyone who chooses to discuss this subject open-mindedly.

I'm just asking what's important about the year 2012 in itself, it's a perfectly reasonable question. As in, why 2012 and not some other time period?

I don't think current events are that significant in the grand scheme of things. Basically a few dictators in relatively minor countries got ousted and a few other countries rumbled a bit. This is nothing compared to the events leading up to the dissolution of the Eastern Block and the Soviet Union in the late 80s, or the two world wars several decades earlier. If anything events seem to have gotten less significant with time.

Yes, I was thinking of similar things. In more recent times there has been the economic collapse, the 9/11 attacks, and the advent of the computer age and the creation of the internet.

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Originally Posted by Xei

I'm just asking what's important about the year 2012 in itself, it's a perfectly reasonable question. As in, why 2012 and not some other time period?

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Because of the whole "prophecy," theory, belief thing surrounding 2012, and its scale - as was outlined in the OP. I'm pretty sure you understand. "Why 2012," as I went over specific events that seem to go along with the 'prophecy' and its many interpretations. I'm not talking general "oh, weird things happen all the time," I'm talking about events that can be interpreted as closely related to the theories themselves. Don't know how much clearer I can be than that.

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Originally Posted by Spartiate

I don't think current events are that significant in the grand scheme of things. Basically a few dictators in relatively minor countries got ousted and a few other countries rumbled a bit. This is nothing compared to the events leading up to the dissolution of the Eastern Block and the Soviet Union in the late 80s, or the two world wars several decades earlier. If anything events seem to have gotten less significant with time.

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Good point, Spart. I do not know much about the period surrounding the dissolution of the Eastern Block and the Soviet Union - nor, admittedly, much about the specific idiologies that led up to the wars. I will look into them more, as well as how those time periods may or may not be more or less closely related to the whole 2012 than the period we are in now.. :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Xei

Yes, I was thinking of similar things. In more recent times there has been the economic collapse, the 9/11 attacks, and the advent of the computer age and the creation of the internet.

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Personally, I don't think either of those events, alone, hold as many connections to the theory as what is going on right now.

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

[/INDENT]Because of the whole "prophecy," theory, belief thing surrounding 2012, and its scale - as was outlined in the OP. I'm pretty sure you understand. "Why 2012," as I went over specific events that seem to go along with the 'prophecy' and its many interpretations. I'm not talking general "oh, weird things happen all the time," I'm talking about events that can be interpreted as closely related to the theories themselves. Don't know how much clearer I can be than that.

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But it's 2011?

Seriously, what I'm saying is that there is no reason to believe the changes should be pinned down to 21/12/12 or whatever it is; I mean, even the historical 'Mayans thought there would be a cosmic shift' thing is not actually based on fact. I'm saying you can hypothesise on some kind of trend or shift based on current events if you want but the 2012 date is just an assertion, why are you lending credence to it?

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Personally, I don't think either of those events, alone, hold as many connections to the theory as what is going on right now.

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You would rate this event as more important than the creation of the internet? The internet has instantaneously linked all humans on Earth, made information insuppressible, and the Egypt protests were basically a facet of that larger event.

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Originally Posted by Spartiate

I don't think current events are that significant in the grand scheme of things. Basically a few dictators in relatively minor countries got ousted and a few other countries rumbled a bit. This is nothing compared to the events leading up to the dissolution of the Eastern Block and the Soviet Union in the late 80s, or the two world wars several decades earlier. If anything events seem to have gotten less significant with time.

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I see what you mean. Big events like WW1, WW2, the fall of the Soviet Union, etc make current events look insignificant. But I think what is happening in the Middle East is more than just a few countries rumbling. The people of these countries are gathering in large numbers and calling for a major change in how they are treated and how their countries are run. And with the world watching and encouraging the protesters, they could all get what they want. Imagine if all of those countries in the Middle East become democracies by the end of all this and all of those people finally have a say in what happens in their part of the world. How big an impact will that have?

Also, this stuff happening in the Middle East isn't the only interesting thing going on. For example, information released by Wikileaks has been stirring things up a bit. They've shown us some tightly guarded secrets that would have remained hidden from the public, and they plan to show us a lot more in the near future. It's already angered a lot of powerful people who want to see Julian Assange jailed or even executed.

I'm not saying anything major will happen in the year 2012, because honestly I don't really think it will. But I would say things that are going on right now aren't exactly boring. I'm sure it's giving all of the conspiracy theorists out there something to be excited about. :P

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Originally Posted by Xei

But it's 2011?

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I know what year it is. I also understand that, the domino effect that seems to be going on is in its beginning stages. It's not over and done with. Many of the revolutions haven't even happened, they are - as now - simply protests. The fact that it's only 2011 now is, again, irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Xei

Seriously, what I'm saying is that there is no reason to believe the changes should be pinned down to 21/12/12 or whatever it is; I mean, even the historical 'Mayans thought there would be a cosmic shift' thing is not actually based on fact. I'm saying you can hypothesise on some kind of trend or shift based on current events if you want but the 2012 date is just an assertion, why are you lending credence to it?

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I'm not "lending credence" to it, Xei. Not anywhere in this thread have I "lent credence" to it. I am entertaining it, in light of how closely the events can be attributed to the most widespread interpretations of the theory. I know the theory is not based on fact. I understand that it's just an assertion. But it is a popular one, and I'm humoring it. Again, how much clearer can I make myself?

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Originally Posted by Xei

You would rate this event as more important

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I'm going to stop you right there, and say "NO!"
Again, please pay attention to what I'm saying. I have not said that anything presented in the thread is more "important" than anything else. I said that - given the factors - it can be most closely related to the aspects of the theory; the religious/spiritual base of the areas in conflict, the moral implications of the feuds, etc. etc. (which have much less to do with the Internet, if at all). There is no one here that said anything about importance or trying to imply the theories are true, or whatever else it is you are (quite strangely) trying to negate.

I am simply trying to compare (and/or contrast) the interpretations of the popular notions of the whole 2012 "theory" with what is going on today. Is anybody else having that much trouble understanding this?

You said you were intrigued by the coincidence and asked if anybody had anything to add. Mine and Spart's reply has been that from a more comprehensive or objective historical standpoint, this event isn't particularly large. If that isn't a valid contribution then I'm totally clueless as to what you wanted to hear.

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Originally Posted by Xei

You said you were intrigued by the coincidence and asked if anybody had anything to add. Mine and Spart's reply has been that from a more comprehensive or objective historical standpoint, this event isn't particularly large. If that isn't a valid contribution then I'm totally clueless as to what you wanted to hear.

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Ay, Dios Mio, Xei. Notice the difference in the way I responded to Spart's input. I more than welcome objectivity that counters the 2012 hype. But I believe Spart's contribution was much more relevant - and significant. (He also did it without stooping to biased dissent and putting words in my mouth, implying that he actually understood the OP.) As I said, I wasn't sure how closely the specifics of his contribution (the dissolution of the S.U. and the World Wars) can be related to the 2012-type speculations, as opposed to what is going on, and it would warrant some looking into. I think that they are potentially more closely related than those you offered because of the sheer atrocity of them (specifically the wars), and the spiritual/moral aspects of them (which are closely related to two of the 3 examples of the theory interpretations I gave in the OP). Yours, well, didn't.

I also stated that the ripple effect that started with the Tunisian and Egyptian uprisings haven't stopped yet, so the fact that it isn't "particularly large" - which is quite arbitrary - remains to be seen. I am simply starting the discussion in the early stages of a chain of events which could carry on for years.

....And I feel like I'm repeating myself more and more. :?

[Edit]
But, if nothing else; If the discussion I'm trying to provoke is really that hard to understand, know that I understand your general position on the subject. You don't think there is any truth to the theory whatsoever, and you don't think any of the current events are more significant than those in the past. I get it. (Though you aren't really comparing different aspects of the theory, in its most popular interpretations, with the different implicit aspects of what's going on today, in their totality - as I said; the religious aspects, the paradigm shift, the morality issues. All of these fit the many interpretations, and they are all happening simultaneously. Therefore, the current events more concisely fit the interpretations than even the most significant events of the past, on their own.)

omg I like that picture!!!! Sorry if I'm to imature....

Cool thread though getting all logical and shit about it

Except in my very first post I actually made the exact same point as Spart and you ignored it.

And to be honest if you think that my latter suggestions were less potent then Spart's (and I only made them because Spart had already delineated the obvious older ones) then that's your personal opinion. So what, you think I'm wrong; this doesn't mean I'm trying to derail the thread or I'm attacking you (which you've said about five times now and know better). When I tried to discuss it you point blank refused to talk to me and said it wasn't relevant to the thread... and now you're saying it is exactly what is relevant to the thread. I really have no idea what is going on here.

Can we stop for a moment and first...discuss all of the various reasons as to why people have prophetized about the year 2012? I think this would take care of the point Xei was trying to make, concerning why the year 2012, and more specifically the day...December 21st 2012 should hold any significance. Can we please put together an accurate collection of these theories and prophesies? This means, research the topic thoroughly and provide enough support to show us that what you are saying is credible.

For example, some things that I have heard/read about, that I would like to do research on regarding 2012, but considering I am only one person and I have limited free time these days I'm going to ask all of you to help present research and data on these matters...

- End of the Mayan Calender (but I've also read reports that our interpretation of the calender is inaccurate? further research is necessary)

- Earth having a pole shift, or aligning with planets, or the center of our galaxy, or moving from one plane and shifting its spin, wobble, etc. etc., etc. ...someone research that please and give us some data!

- Something about the I-ching is set up in a way as to predict the end of something in 2012...somebody research that.

- Edgar Cayce, the sleeping psychic...did he make prophesies about 2012? What about Nostradamus, or any other famous seer or psychic...somebody research that.

- Are natural disasters really increasing at an alarming rate as has been suggested? Earthquakes, hurricanes etc. etc. This is not specific to 2012 but gives credibility to the "prophecy" if true, so it should be researched as well, along with Natural Die Offs of large animal populations

- Is there anything about 2012 in the Bible? or any other religious text? (not that the bible has ever prophesied anything worthwhile)

- I can't remember any of the other prophecies, so I ask you all to please add any that I may have left out...and present us with some good solid facts! Let's get to the bottom of this once and for all.

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Originally Posted by Xei

Except in my very first post I actually made the exact same point as Spart and you ignored it.

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Actually, I didn't ignore it. I didn't respond to it (and I apologize for that), because I was so disappointed by the inadvertent attack on my rationality that followed. My disappointment was mostly due to the fact that - while I was writing up the OP - I figured that, were you to be one of the first to respond, you would be one of those that could not approach the subject without making the type of comment that you did. To be more specific, your "the world is always changing / I can think of bigger historical events than this" was so vague (and pretty obvious) that it was overshadowed by your insult.

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Originally Posted by Xei

And to be honest if you think that my latter suggestions were less potent then Spart's (and I only made them because Spart had already delineated the obvious older ones) then that's your personal opinion.

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Which I rightly acknowledged, by beginning my response with "I believe..."

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Originally Posted by Xei

So what, you think I'm wrong; this doesn't mean I'm trying to derail the thread or I'm attacking you (which you've said about five times now and know better).

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Let me give this a little context:

I take a moderate stance on many issues: Paranormality, Metaphysics, Religion, Philosophy, etc. I try to see things from all points of view. I try to see things that the faithful do not see, for lack of logic and critical thinking; I try to see things that the strictly scientific cannot see, for lack of outside-the-box perspective. I try to see things that the strictly 'logical' might not see, for the same reasons. I have been doing this for quite a long time. A problem I very often come across is that those who deem themselves the 'most logical,' are often the least capable of stating their position on such outlandish topics such as this, without being (pardon the expression) douche-bags. I'm tired of it. It adds nothing to the discussion, and it's even more reprehensible when they do it when stating an opinion, rather than a cold, hard fact; not that it's necessary, in that case, either.

Seriously, it's like an illness, and it's an ugly one. I give just as much blame to a theist who says non-believers are blind, arrogant fools who can't see that God obviously exists, as I do to an atheist who says that believers are illogical idiots, who are too stupid to see that there is obviously no God. They are two sides of the same coin, and no-matter how faithful or logical each person thinks they are, they are viciously defending their opinions through ad hominem attacks. It is how FOXNews conducts viewer opinion (i.e.; Bill O'Reilly's Pinheads and Patriots segments), and it has no place in mature, civilized, intelligent discussion. Ironically, it is usually the "intellects" that are most guilty of this. Consider the fact that I anticipated it, in my OP.

So, when you say that "but for any rational person the year 2012 in itself has nothing to do with anything and is not worth discussing," you are blatantly (even if subconsciously) insulting my rationality, seeing as how I am the one who brought up the discussion.

Copy?

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Originally Posted by Xei

When I tried to discuss it you point blank refused to talk to me and said it wasn't relevant to the thread... and now you're saying it is exactly what is relevant to the thread.

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I didn't refuse to talk to you. The point (in my opinion) was insignificant, in the way that you presented it. Spart actually gave examples (and made his point without the previously explained insult in tow).

And once again (and even now), I have sufficiently explained the difference between Spart's examples and yours. I believe that those times of extreme violence - on such a grand scale - that he mentioned are more analogous to the 'apocalyptic' interpretations of the theory. Those examples were more about the Good/Evil base of the more fringe/religious interpretations of the theory - while simultaneously touching on the apocalyptic interpretations, etc.

Yes, the 9/11 attacks were a time of great tragedy, but it doesn't necessarily fit the 'world on fire' or 'widespread revolution/destruction/violence' type of interpretations. The invention of the Internet, while significant, doesn't really represent the 'paradigm shift,' as I - and many others - interpret it. There has always been a thirst for knowledge. The Internet simply expedited how easily attainable that knowledge is. In contrast, these current events are more about the worth of the people. Regions that have been oppressed and beaten down by "Evil" (tyranny, heavy-handed dictatorship) are beginning to find a sense of self-worth, and speak together with an empowering realization of unity and self-respect ("Good"). Were this the only relevant factor (remember: relevance and importance/potency are not synonymous) then I wouldn't pay so much attention to it, but it's not. It's that all of the factors of the current events fit so squarely with all of the interpretations (not perfectly, but enough to garner attention from anyone who is interested in the whole 2012 thing) that I find it more relevant than any one of the afore-mentioned examples.

You didn't say "exactly" what Spart said. You said something that - while in the same ballpark - was (at first) much less specific and (later) not quite as relevant (in my opinion) to the theory(s) itself. I have explained why, as best I could. If you don't agree, then I can only respect your opinion and hope that we can get back on track.

[Edit]
Thank you very much, Nina! This is exactly what I was looking to accomplish. Will be looking into some of these, myself. :thumbup:
And I'm sure there are many more people on DV who have actually followed the whole 2012 thing, so feel free to add your input!

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Originally Posted by Aquanina

- I can't remember any of the other prophecies, so I ask you all to please add any that I may have left out...and present us with some good solid facts! Let's get to the bottom of this once and for all.

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I've heard of a few of the theories you mentioned, but haven't done much research on them. I don't know if I'll be able to find out much about any of them, but I'll probably give it a try.

I'm going to add something interesting that I read a bit about. When it comes to the whole 2012 thing, I don't think this theory is mentioned much. But I find it funny how the timing seems to be lined up nicely with all of the 2012 stuff. It's called the "Malachy Prophecy" or "Prophecy of the Popes". In 1139, an archbishop from Armagh, in Ireland was summoned to Rome by the Pope. When he arrived in the Vatican, he apparently fell to the floor and had a vision of the Popes who would rule the Catholic Church from then on. He quickly wrote down a numbered list of Latin phrases describing each Pope. There are 112 phrases in total.

The last Pope on the list is thought to have been added later, possibly by someone else. He is the only one who is named and is given a more detailed description than the rest. The name is Petrus Romanus (or Peter the Roman) and is described as being the last Pope to rule over the church because Rome will be destroyed.

Malachy was canonised and is now a saint. Apparently the phrases describing the Popes are quite accurate, but honestly, I think they're so vague that they could fit into anything. It's just the timing that amuses me. Our current Pope is the 111th since the prophecy was made and should he die before the year 2012, the new Pope will make a perfectly timed arrival. :P

Here's a link to the Wikipedia page: Prophecy of the Popes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't think I'd be able to find a better link, but if it interests anyone, they can look more into it themselves. Again, I don't really believe it, but it's a funny coincidence.

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Originally Posted by Aquanina

Can we stop for a moment and first...discuss all of the various reasons as to why people have prophetized about the year 2012? I think this would take care of the point Xei was trying to make, concerning why the year 2012, and more specifically the day...December 21st 2012 should hold any significance. Can we please put together an accurate collection of these theories and prophesies? This means, research the topic thoroughly and provide enough support to show us that what you are saying is credible.

For example, some things that I have heard/read about, that I would like to do research on regarding 2012, but considering I am only one person and I have limited free time these days I'm going to ask all of you to help present research and data on these matters...

- End of the Mayan Calender (but I've also read reports that our interpretation of the calender is inaccurate? further research is necessary)

- Earth having a pole shift, or aligning with planets, or the center of our galaxy, or moving from one plane and shifting its spin, wobble, etc. etc., etc. ...someone research that please and give us some data!

- Something about the I-ching is set up in a way as to predict the end of something in 2012...somebody research that.

- Edgar Cayce, the sleeping psychic...did he make prophesies about 2012? What about Nostradamus, or any other famous seer or psychic...somebody research that.

- Are natural disasters really increasing at an alarming rate as has been suggested? Earthquakes, hurricanes etc. etc. This is not specific to 2012 but gives credibility to the "prophecy" if true, so it should be researched as well, along with Natural Die Offs of large animal populations

- Is there anything about 2012 in the Bible? or any other religious text? (not that the bible has ever prophesied anything worthwhile)

- I can't remember any of the other prophecies, so I ask you all to please add any that I may have left out...and present us with some good solid facts! Let's get to the bottom of this once and for all.

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The only 100% certain thing that will happen on the 21st of December 2012 is that the Mayan calendar will complete the current "b'ak'tun", a period of 144,000 days. This would be the end of the 13th one since the mythical Mayan creation date.

I think this all started because of an old book that collects various elements of Mayan mythology, and it says that the gods previously created a failed world which ended at the start of the 14th b'ak'tun, so some people think it'll happen again I guess?

Anything else, especially regarding astronomy or natural events, is just speculation or pseudoscience.

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Originally Posted by Spartiate

The only 100% certain thing that will happen on the 21st of December 2012 is that the Mayan calendar will complete the current "b'ak'tun", a period of 144,000 days. This would be the end of the 13th one since the mythical Mayan creation date.

I think this all started because of an old book that collects various elements of Mayan mythology, and it says that the gods previously created a failed world which ended at the start of the 14th b'ak'tun, so some people think it'll happen again I guess?

Anything else, especially regarding astronomy or natural events, is just speculation or pseudoscience.

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Spart, I don't think there is much debate on this (and we don't have to keep repeating it).

We are simply entertaining the idea. Can we please get off of the "it's just speculation / it's not gonna happen" train for a little while? Seriously. Don't people know how to suspend their disbelief anymore? I am simply entertaining the theory by looking at the ins-and-outs of it. We know it's all speculation. We know it's all based on myth. We know it's likely not to amount to anything. We know it's all about (mis)interpretation. It's been said. It's been re-said, and it's been regurgitated.

For the love of God, save it!
[Edit]
InB4 "God Doesn't Exist!" :chuckle:

God doesn't exist

EDIT:

Dammit! O beat me too it!

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Spart, I don't think there is much debate on this (and we don't have to keep repeating it).

We are simply entertaining the idea. Can we please get off of the "it's just speculation / it's not gonna happen" train for a little while? Seriously. Don't people know how to suspend their disbelief anymore? I am simply entertaining the theory by looking at the ins-and-outs of it. We know it's all speculation. We know it's all based on myth. We know it's likely not to amount to anything. We know it's all about (mis)interpretation. It's been said. It's been re-said, and it's been regurgitated.

For the love of God, save it!
[Edit]
InB4 "God Doesn't Exist!" :chuckle:

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Jeez, sorry for popping your bubble :P. Nina asked for an accurate list of what exactly is going to happen and that's what I gave her...

I mean you can look at all the "predictions" for entertainment purposes I guess, but you really have to look at their background before lending them any credence at all. Most of them aren't even theories, they're just ideas that some random person thought up and spread around. For instance the "pole shift" thing, how can you predict that, and especially pin it down to a single date (or year), it's something that happens over centuries.

Another popular 2012 scenario is that an unknown planet called "Nibiru" will collide with Earth. Who thought of this? A woman who says aliens from the Zeta Reticuli star system implanted a device in her brain to communicate with her. Her first prediction for the event was 2003 but then she jumped on board the 2012 train...

Anybody could invent a semi-plausible theory for 2012, that's why I feel it's kind of pointless to seriously discuss any. Maybe the star Betelgeuse will go supernova, causing a gamma ray burst that will destroy Earth's atmosphere, but create a rift in hyperspace so that our life-forces will shift dimensions and ascend to a new reality.

^ ©Spart

Again, you are stating the obvious.

And, yet, the discussion will continue.

And since you bring up Nibiru, I'll look into that as well, as to how it relates to what's actually going on, currently. The point that you and Xei are failing to grasp is that I Don't care about the insubstantiality of the claims. I am entertaining the idea, and digging into the most popular claims. I don't care if the most popular claims were started by some half-baked, pot-smoking meth-head in Kansas. If it is something that a large number of people actually believe, it is fair game to discuss whether or not it is actually coming to pass, at this time, based on current events.

This, Spartiate, is a classic case of bias getting in the way of understanding. I have made myself very, very clear, and yet the pseudo-skeptics (and I use this term because this refusal to understand the point goes far beyond just being skeptical of the theory) are acting like I'm speaking in tongues.

I have always regarded both you an Xei as intelligent guys, and I'm not disputing the sentiment, but I am growing exceedingly disappointed in you both. :shakehead2:

(Perhaps you don't understand that, by looking at the theories in detail, and comparing/contrasting the actual events - not the origins of the theories - I am not only 'lending them credence,' but also 'falsifying them.' I am walking an objective line, straight down the middle. Does this make you feel better? Can we get back on track, now?)

What about the theory about the large hadron collider forming a micro black hole, that sucks in more and more until it devours the entire earth, in 2012?

I think people just want to see the world be destroyed, but none of them have the guts to make a dooms day machine them self, so they cling to the fantasy that the world will destroy itself. Obvious it wont though. Construction takes to long, so if you haven't started your doomsday machine yet, it might be to late to have it up and running by 2012. Though I suppose if you are trying to be dramatic and finish it at the last minute, just before new years, when it will turn 2013, it might be okay to wait.

Spart...you sort of missed my point. Which is that I'd like to discover the source of many of these beliefs so that we can effectively disprove them or consider it as a possibility. I've also heard about the supposed planet, thanks for mentioning that one. But my point is that I've heard some intelligent sounding arguments for this supposed planet, therefore I think it worthwhile to find the real source of this information so that people STOP continuing to spread misinformation. Basically your post doesn't help at all, because it just states your opinion that all such things are BS, yet doesn't get to the core of any real information. This is why I said that any information presented should be provided with good sources to support your facts or opinion. I'm not asking these things because I think any of this stuff will turn out to be true, I just want people to have accurate information so they stop sounding like idiots parroting what they've heard their friends say or read on someone's internet blog. I would never come into a thread like this and say, "well the I-ching predicts that the world will end in 2012" even though I saw something regarding the I-ching and 2012 on Nat Geo. But a lot of people DO make those kind of mistakes, and continue spreading misinformation. I just want to encourage people to do their own research and figure out whether any of this stuff has any shred of credibility. You were quick to dismiss the "pole shift" but you neglected to provide any support for where this idea originated, or what part of it might be accurate or inaccurate.

Alric...can you provide us with research that says how the Hadron might produce black holes? Haven't most scientists dismissed this notion? etc. etc. etc. that's what I want to see. Not more speculation. Facts. Anybody got them?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aquanina

Facts. Anybody got them?

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My guess: No. Only a very telling absence of them.

Bam:
The Large Hadron Collider Will Not Destroy the World Tomorrow, or Ever | GeekDad | Wired.com

Safety of Particle Collisions at the Large Hadron Collider

Scientist did disprove most of the worries people had. However there was a lot of worry and stuff. Like with it releasing strangelets that will destroy the entire world. There are theories for that but they are mostly disbelieved. Some people look at the small very unlikely situations and ask, "What if?" And they work them self up over it.

A lot of the fears for most of the 2012 theories come from speculation, not fact. So when you look back at where they originally came from, they appear very unlikely.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alric

A lot of the fears for most of the 2012 theories come from speculation, not fact. So when you look back at where they originally came from, they appear very unlikely.

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And I understand this. But understanding this does not get in the way of entertaining the idea (unless you really want it to). Like I said, I am simply entertaining the idea. As I said in the OP, I think there is probably a paradigm shift coming. Do I think this is directly related to 2012, no. But it has sparked my interest in the theory. So if people can find it in themselves to humor me, that's awesome. If they can't, there is really no reason for them to be posting here, because they would be preaching to the choir.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Bam:
The Large Hadron Collider Will Not Destroy the World Tomorrow, or Ever | GeekDad | Wired.com

Safety of Particle Collisions at the Large Hadron Collider

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If that's responding to what I said then you misunderstood what I said (my fault definitely. I wasn't clear).

I should have said that you will not find a single fact supporting a single theory that suggests that 21/12/2012 will be any special day.

EDIT:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

But understanding this does not get in the way of entertaining the idea (unless you really want it to).

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What exactly do you mean by "entertaining" an idea if not evaluating it to see if it's true or not?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

If that's responding to what I said then you misunderstood what I said (my fault definitely. I wasn't clear).

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Nah, it was more in response to Alric. I actually hadn't even thought about the Hadron, but the whole "it's gonna destroy the world" hysteria could be closely related to the 2012 thing. So I just posted something explaining that its safety has been evaluated, and is likely not a problem. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PS

I should have said that you will not find a single fact supporting a single theory that suggests that 21/12/2012 will be any special day.

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Ah, ok. And that's fine. But the declaration that one won't find any facts means much, much less to me than the actual inability of people to find said facts. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PS

What exactly do you mean by "entertaining" an idea if not evaluating it to see if it's true or not?

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What I mean is to pretend the theories are substantial, in order to either verify or falsify them. Coming into the experiment with the simple intention to prove it wrong by doing things like trying to question the credibility of those who started them is not the point of the thread. The point is to take those theories, substantial or not and actually compare them to what is going on in the world right now. It is an exercise in 'suspension of disbelief.' That's all. It's like going into a superhero movie and not trying to explain why 'that's stupid! Telekinesis doesn't exist!' (It's important to note that some 'logical' people have an innate inability to do this.) Instead, it's about saying: "Ok, so let's assume these theories are genuine. Are there any signs of it (however speculative) happening right now, in the real world?"

Even in matters of science, bias obstructs discovery. The point of this thread is to explore the theories without bias - without trying to smear the credibility of the original claims - but through applying those claims to see how well they do or do not fit with what is actually happening now.

Double post, I know, but I just wanted to acknowledge that I talked to Xei in chat, and he further explained his position on the Internet. Before, I interpreted it as simply talking about the "flow of information," which I didn't find very relevant, at the time. But, when he expanded on how that was a "shift in global consciousness," I understood it more. That part of our discussion was a bit of a mis-understanding on my part, and a bit of ambiguity on his. I still do not believe it was quite as analogous to the different facets of the 2012 theories as what is going on now, but - just as Spart's suggestions, it is something to take into consideration. I just want to make that known.

O I think you're approaching this the wrong way. Most of the beliefs concerning 2012 are based on mythology (ancient or modern) rather than science (bad or good). There are no papers on these beliefs or agreed upon facts.

For this reason the origins and sources of these beliefs are very important, they're pretty much all we have to judge them. I'm not exactly sure what direction you want this thread to go, but if I understand Nina's position better we should just examine every 2012 belief in detail.

I already mentioned the pole shift and Nibiru beliefs so I'll start with those...

Most people who talk about pole shifts are confusing the term with geomagnetic reversal. A pole shift is a change of the geographical poles that the Earth rotates around. Changing this would indeed be very bad, but it's just not going to happen short of the Earth being struck by something the size of the Moon or a Jupiter-sized planet messing up our orbit. A geomagnetic reversal is a reversal of the Earth's north and south magnetic poles. This has happened many times in the past and hasn't been linked to any cataclysmic event. Geomagnetic reversals also aren't instantaneous, and certainly can't be pinned down (or predicted) to a specific date. The last event happened over the course of millennia.

Now for the phantom planet Nibiru... it's kinda hard to quote sources disproving something that doesn't exist... It's safe to say that astronomer have found no reason to believe in its existence, either directly or through gravity and orbit anomalies. Anybody in North America, go outside right now (7:30 EST) and look west. The bright object just above the horizon is Jupiter, Jupiter is pretty far and that's how bright it is. With binoculars you can see its moons which are roughly the size of our Moon, anybody can do this from their porch. The idea that a planet-sized object has yet to be discovered in the vicinity of Earth is ridiculous with the number of eyes looking up. Also please, please consider the source. A woman claimed that aliens put an implant in her brain and are communicating with her. She first said that there would be a collision in 2003, and when that didn't happen she changed the date to 2012.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spartiate

O I think you're approaching this the wrong way. Most of the beliefs concerning 2012 are based on mythology (ancient or modern) rather than science (bad or good). There are no papers on these beliefs or agreed upon facts.

For this reason the origins and sources of these beliefs are very important, they're pretty much all we have to judge them. I'm not exactly sure what direction you want this thread to go, but if I understand Nina's position better we should just examine every 2012 belief in detail.

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I'm not judging the origins of the beliefs. To find and post them is fine, but if they are wide-spread beliefs about what will happen, then where the beliefs started is not really all that important. What would be important is how closely the beliefs resemble things that are happening currently. What I'm not trying to do is hear "well there are no facts to support this belief, so apparently it's not true." That's all. If you are going to post information on the foundation of a belief in a way that helps us understand it enough to conclude whether or not something similar to the belief is happening now (or in the near future, if we come back to it later), then fire away. What I don't want to see is "well, such-and-such theory is just a whack job speculation, with no science behind it, so it's obviously not happening right now."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spart

I already mentioned the pole shift and Nibiru beliefs so I'll start with those...

Most people who talk about pole shifts are confusing the term with geomagnetic reversal. A pole shift is a change of the geographical poles that the Earth rotates around. Changing this would indeed be very bad, but it's just not going to happen short of the Earth being struck by something the size of the Moon or a Jupiter-sized planet messing up our orbit. A geomagnetic reversal is a reversal of the Earth's north and south magnetic poles. This has happened many times in the past and hasn't been linked to any cataclysmic event. Geomagnetic reversals also aren't instantaneous, and certainly can't be pinned down (or predicted) to a specific date. The last event happened over the course of millennia.

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Sloshing Inside Earth Changes Protective Magnetic Field | Space.com
Sometimes ya gotta dig a little deeper, Spart. :wink:

Now, I do understand that the geomagnetic reversal is not a cataclysmic event, in and of itself, but what kind of damage could a disabling of critical satellites do? Surely it could be enough for someone to interpret the damage as 'cataclysmic,' no? As far as how soon or far into the future it's going to happen - as the article said - the jury is still out. But sudden shifts - enough to damage satellites, at the least - can apparently happen over the course of a few months. So I think we can keep paying attention to it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spart

Now for the phantom planet Nibiru... it's kinda hard to quote sources disproving something that doesn't exist... It's safe to say that astronomer have found no reason to believe in its existence, either directly or through gravity and orbit anomalies. Anybody in North America, go outside right now (7:30 EST) and look west. The bright object just above the horizon is Jupiter, Jupiter is pretty far and that's how bright it is. With binoculars you can see its moons which are roughly the size of our Moon, anybody can do this from their porch. The idea that a planet-sized object has yet to be discovered in the vicinity of Earth is ridiculous with the number of eyes looking up. Also please, please consider the source. A woman claimed that aliens put an implant in her brain and are communicating with her. She first said that there would be a collision in 2003, and when that didn't happen she changed the date to 2012.

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The most important part of the Nibiru thing is that the time-frame for the (obvious) hoax has already come and gone. The original theory didn't even have anything to do with 2012. It wasn't until after the deadline had come and gone that other people ran with the theory and began to attribute it to 2012. For that reason, alone, it's not worth talking about, because the deadline was supposed to have been for 2003.

You see how I did that without relying on the assumption that the woman was a crackpot?

Now. Since we got the obvious out of the way, lets play with the theory a little more, just for shits and giggles. :>

This was brought to my attention yesterday, as a matter of coincidence, while watching the news:
Giant Stealth Planet May Explain Rain of Comets from Solar System's Edge | Space.com

Not that I have any sort of belief that this is the phantom planet Nibiru, or that this planet is going to rocket further into our solar system and cause the apocalypse (or that it actually exists at all), but I find it interesting that the nickname for Nibiru - which is Planet X - came:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wiki

from the hypothetical planet once searched for by astronomers to account for discrepancies in the orbits of Uranus and Neptune.[17] In 1894, Bostonian astronomer Percival Lowell became convinced that the planets Uranus and Neptune had slight discrepancies in their orbits. He concluded that they must be being tugged by the gravity of another, more distant planet, which he called "Planet X".[20] However, nearly a century of searching failed to turn up any evidence for such an object (Pluto was initially believed to be Planet X, but was later determined to be too small).[21] In 1992, astronomer Myles Standish showed that the supposed discrepancies in the planets' orbits were illusory; the product of an overestimation of the mass of Neptune.[22] Today astronomers accept that Planet X does not exist.[23]

Nibiru collision - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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And yes, you will find that there are doubts in the scientific community, as to whether or not Tyche exists, which is fine. It's all speculation, at this point. But it's an interesting coincidence, if nothing else. :-?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

I'm not judging the origins of the beliefs. To find and post them is fine, but if they are wide-spread beliefs about what will happen, then where the beliefs started is not really all that important. What would be important is how closely the beliefs resemble things that are happening currently. What I'm not trying to do is hear "well there are no facts to support this belief, so apparently it's not true." That's all. If you are going to post information on the foundation of a belief in a way that helps us understand it enough to conclude whether or not something similar to the belief is happening now (or in the near future, if we come back to it later), then fire away. What I don't want to see is "well, such-and-such theory is just a whack job speculation, with no science behind it, so it's obviously not happening right now."

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Many many people believe because they were simply told and didn't look into it any further, I think that the number of believers is much less relevant than how the originator got their idea.

Quote:

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Sloshing Inside Earth Changes Protective Magnetic Field | Space.com
Sometimes ya gotta dig a little deeper, Spart. :wink:

Now, I do understand that the geomagnetic reversal is not a cataclysmic event, in and of itself, but what kind of damage could a disabling of critical satellites do? Surely it could be enough for someone to interpret the damage as 'cataclysmic,' no? As far as how soon or far into the future it's going to happen - as the article said - the jury is still out. But sudden shifts - enough to damage satellites, at the least - can apparently happen over the course of a few months. So I think we can keep paying attention to it.

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I did know about this but didn't think it was very important since:

a) We've known about these variations for quite a while.
b) The events themselves aren't particularly significant, a few satellites being knocked out (which could happen any time, even from other events like solar flares or CMEs) seems unworthy of a millennia old Mayan prophecy.
c) They still can't be attributed to a single date (21/12/2012).

I think this is a case of looking too hard for corroborating evidence with a preconceived notion in head.

Quote:

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The most important part of the Nibiru thing is that the time-frame for the (obvious) hoax has already come and gone. The original theory didn't even have anything to do with 2012. It wasn't until after the deadline had come and gone that other people ran with the theory and began to attribute it to 2012. For that reason, alone, it's not worth talking about, because the deadline was supposed to have been for 2003.

You see how I did that without relying on the assumption that the woman was a crackpot?

---

Would you have believed her before 2003?

Quote:

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Now. Since we got the obvious out of the way, lets play with the theory a little more, just for shits and giggles. :>

This was brought to my attention yesterday, as a matter of coincidence, while watching the news:
Giant Stealth Planet May Explain Rain of Comets from Solar System's Edge | Space.com

Not that I have any sort of belief that this is the phantom planet Nibiru, or that this planet is going to rocket further into our solar system and cause the apocalypse (or that it actually exists at all), but I find it interesting that the nickname for Nibiru - which is Planet X - came:


And yes, you will find that there are doubts in the scientific community, as to whether or not Tyche exists, which is fine. It's all speculation, at this point. But it's an interesting coincidence, if nothing else. :-?

---

First, the idea of another planet past the orbit of Neptune doesn't only carry doubts, it is not currently accepted, though not out of the question. The name Planet X has existed ever since astronomers started searching for a planet beyond Neptune, the people who made up Nibiru just adopted the name. In any case, the belief is that this planet will cross into the inner solar system and mess up Earth, so anything short of that isn't really related. An interesting quote regarding the possibility of such an event:

Quote:

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In a 2009 interview with the Discovery Channel, Mike Brown noted that, while it is not impossible that the Sun has a distant planetary companion, such an object would have to be lying very far from the observed regions of the Solar System to have no gravitational effect on the other planets. A Mars-sized object could lie undetected at 300 AU (10 times the distance of Neptune); a Jupiter-sized object at 30,000 AU (1000 times the distance of Neptune). To travel 1000 AU (30 times the distance of Neptune) in 2 years, an object would need to be moving at 2400 km/s, or faster than the galactic escape velocity. At that speed, any object would be shot out of the Solar System, and then out of the Milky Way galaxy into intergalactic space.[33]

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Well if you want a plausible idea, I'll tell you something could happen in 2012 because of this idea that there will be a paradigm shift. I'm talking about a self-fulfilling prophecy. Considering that this whole idea of something happening in 2012 is pretty popular, it might be that just the very overall feeling of inspiration and expectation of change catalyzes it if enough people feel that way.

Still, I can't help but mention that "a paradigm shift" is an incredibly vague notion about as prophetic as "we will have interesting weather tomorrow." How would you go about approaching such a suggestion? What exactly constitutes a paradigm shift? It seems like there are any number of potential social changes that could be listed under that idea. With social change constant and inevitable, it would be insane to predict that there would not be a paradigm shift of some kind somewhere. At least we have a specific date to work with, I suppose, but then how could a significant paradigm shift occur on a single day? It doesn't seem like there can be much that we can conclude without a more specific prediction.

And since the source of all of this, the Mayans, never even made predictions, we won't get a more specific one. I'm not even sure where the "paradigm shift" notion comes from, but it's not the Mayans.

On a related note, I'm wondering if popularity and hype regarding 2012 will increase or decrease as we near the date. I think I have noticed a decrease in the last year or two, possibly since mass media started entertaining the phenomenon (they're always late :P).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spart

Many many people believe because they were simply told and didn't look into it any further, I think that the number of believers is much less relevant than how the originator got their idea.

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*sigh*
Fine. Seeing as how it's apparently impossible to get some of you to play along (and it's really nothing to squabble over), if you want to falsify the theories by talking about where they came from, rather than just whether or not similar things are happening right now - which is the constantly-repeated aim of this thread - you go right ahead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spart

a) We've known about these variations for quite a while.
b) The events themselves aren't particularly significant, a few satellites being knocked out (which could happen any time, even from other events like solar flares or CMEs) seems unworthy of a millennia old Mayan prophecy.
c) They still can't be attributed to a single date (21/12/2012).

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a) Since we both posted articles stating they have happened over and over, I'm not sure what your point is on this one.
b) None of the events are particularly catastrophic themselves, but what I'm looking at is how well any/all of these interpretations might fit together with what is going on currently. Whether or not we have these flares every century or every 10 million years is irrelevant. What matters is whether or not one of these events might happen soon, and whether or not these events cause mass chaos - most specifically, in conjuction with other facets of the theories. And that remains to be seen.
c) Sure they can. IF, by some mind-blowing coincidence, critical satellites are blown out by such an event (most significantly; along with other events of the sort), on or around 12/21/2012, then I would say it's pretty significant. And again, it remains to be seen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spart

I think this is a case of looking too hard for corroborating evidence with a preconceived notion in head.

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It is. And that's the point of this thread. This is what happens when people spend too long instinctively trying to debunk things... Listen closely: The point of the thread IS to invoke the theories. It IS to examine all of the theories and try to make the variables fit, because it is the only way to actually and empirically put the theories to the test, in the coming 2 years. There isn't a single one of us who knows exactly what's going to come out of any of these things, in the near future. So if, by some miracle, like 10 interpretations of the 2012 hysteria happen to come true, on or around that 'prophetic' day, it would be filed away as maybe even nothing more than "interesting". But "interesting" will be good enough for me, by the end of this. It is like the difference between the likelyhood that ESP doesn't exist, and the interesting results from the experiments of Dean Radin and his colleagues. It is like the likelyhood that teleportation doesn't exist, and the interesting implications of an electron's non-local properties (which even Einstein called "spooky action at a distance"). The point of the thread is to stop trying to pre-emptively debunk 2012 claims before they happen, but to bring them to light and then observe whether or not analogous events actually take place, in the coming years. It's fringe, it's unorthodox, it's "crazy," but I find it fun and fascinating.

(And, frankly, some of you are taking the fun out of it.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spart

Would you have believed her before 2003?

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I didn't "believe" her, even before I knew that the deadline for the theory was back in 2003. Why are you asking me this?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spart

First, the idea of another planet past the orbit of Neptune doesn't only carry doubts, it is not currently accepted, though not out of the question. The name Planet X has existed ever since astronomers started searching for a planet beyond Neptune, the people who made up Nibiru just adopted the name. In any case, the belief is that this planet will cross into the inner solar system and mess up Earth, so anything short of that isn't really related. An interesting quote regarding the possibility of such an event:

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I stated that it carried doubts. I posted a link to an article stating that it's not a currently accepted theory in the scientific community. I also hinted at the physical impossibility of such a planet rocketing further into the solar system, toward Earth. I understand very clearly that the name was just taken from the afore-mentioned object. I also said that, if nothing else, the elements that have come together are likely nothing more than interesting coincidence; the name Planet X; the alleged vicinity (within the solar system, but on the unobservable outskirts); the time frame of the awareness of its possible existence (closing in on 2012, with room/time for other possible discoveries related to the most remote aspects of the whole Nibiru thing). However, the direction I'm heading in is that this is all fair game as something to 'shut up and watch,' until the 'Doomsday Date' happens.

Once again, the point of this thread is not to try to debunk the theories based on things we already know. The point of the thread is to list the theories, and see how well they do or don't fit with things (even remotely) that are going on now, or in the next 2 years. I'm not trying to take a "scientific" look at whether or not these things are plausible, based on what we all ready know. I am simply trying to look at things that are going on, or will be going on in the near future, and list their associations with the 2012 theories - however flimsy those associations might be. Granted, I only want to discuss things that are (somewhat) closely-related, but I really don't care if each individual thing can be logically deduced to not be exactly on point. As far as this thread goes, it really doesn't matter.

I'm just trying to get an amalgamation of things that could be misconstrued as things that validate the 2012 theory, when taken together. It's likely not going to be any one particular thing. It will be a grouping together of things that mark the end of 2012 as a significant time period, that may or may not fit the 2012 theories. That's all. That's it. Finis.

Can we even do this? At first, I didn't think it was going to be such a Mission: Impossible, but now, I'm not so sure...

@Mark:
The point is not to explain "how vague a paradigm shift is." The point is simply to observe what happens, and see how well the current events - on or around 2012 - can be attributed to the 'paradigm shift,' and other facets of the 2012 theory. It doesn't mean that I'm going to be like "OH SHIT! PARADIGM SHIFT!" It's just that I would like to see how well/poorly the events that actually happen can or cannot be attributed to the theories. It is ultimately an aimless goal, but it's something that I find interesting. So it's more a "throw shit at the wall and see what sticks" sort of thing.

Do you feel it? Its coming....

No. Not really. Unless it feels like an upset stomach.

Imo, things are happening. Our world is still in its technological adolescence and we are still ruled by rich ass holes. but our abilities to spread information alone enhances our will to potentially change things. People across the globe can collectively come together and say no this is not okay. And that in itself is a big deal. 2012 might not be anything too huge however it may be the starting seed of a new era. I think what happened in egypt was amazing and that it is a big step forward. I hope that in 2012 on a very basic level the world comes to a moralistically sound crescendo of beliefs. I hope for once we can all agree on one thing. who knows what it could be. but as long as it helps systematically change who our ruling powers are and makes this world a better, i'm all for it. all in good time sirs.

bring it beeches

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spartiate

Now for the phantom planet Nibiru... it's kinda hard to quote sources disproving something that doesn't exist... It's safe to say that astronomer have found no reason to believe in its existence, either directly or through gravity and orbit anomalies. Anybody in North America, go outside right now (7:30 EST) and look west. The bright object just above the horizon is Jupiter, Jupiter is pretty far and that's how bright it is. With binoculars you can see its moons which are roughly the size of our Moon, anybody can do this from their porch. The idea that a planet-sized object has yet to be discovered in the vicinity of Earth is ridiculous with the number of eyes looking up. Also please, please consider the source. A woman claimed that aliens put an implant in her brain and are communicating with her. She first said that there would be a collision in 2003, and when that didn't happen she changed the date to 2012.

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What woman are you referring to? To the best of my knowledge, Nibiru wasn't an idea orchestrated by any particular person. From what I understand the Sumerian tablets were deciphered and it speaks about a planet named Nibiru.

http://www.maya12-21-2012.com/nibiru2SolarSystem02.jpg

Then again, sites like Sitchin Is Wrong help offer opposing views for what sitchin largely spent his life researching.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

@Mark:
The point is not to explain "how vague a paradigm shift is." The point is simply to observe what happens, and see how well the current events - on or around 2012 - can be attributed to the 'paradigm shift,' and other facets of the 2012 theory. It doesn't mean that I'm going to be like "OH SHIT! PARADIGM SHIFT!" It's just that I would like to see how well/poorly the events that actually happen can or cannot be attributed to the theories. It is ultimately an aimless goal, but it's something that I find interesting. So it's more a "throw shit at the wall and see what sticks" sort of thing.

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Yeah, I understand that. I'm just saying that without answers to the questions I asked and a more specific prediction I wouldn't even know which wall to start throwing at.

Here's a 16-video presentation talking about possible events/predictions on 2012 that are based on "scientific" patterns and whatnot in history. I still don't believe the world will end next year but this video is worth watching, really interesting..

Part 1 - YouTube - Timeline To 2012 (Part 1 of 16) - Ice Age Core Data

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aquanina

- Are natural disasters really increasing at an alarming rate as has been suggested? Earthquakes, hurricanes etc. etc. This is not specific to 2012 but gives credibility to the "prophecy" if true, so it should be researched as well, along with Natural Die Offs of large animal populations

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I know you said facts, but I cbf finding any. But I know that in Australia in the past year or so we've had gigantic fires, plagues of locusts, floods and cyclones.
I was pretty amused by it in a way because of the whole bible thing.

Also maybe the awakening thing will be that nobody really gives a fuck (doesn't believe) about 2012 and it just passes by.
Rationalism ftw.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tommo

I know you said facts, but I cbf finding any. But I know that in Australia in the past year or so we've had gigantic fires, plagues of locusts, floods and cyclones.
I was pretty amused by it in a way because of the whole bible thing.

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Yeah, the poor aussies have had it rough for the past while. :(

Hehe yeh. It hasn't been too bad though really. Considering what has happened.
I think only like one person died in the cyclone (cat 5) and he was up on the ladder. So natural selection I spose.
Although the fires were bad.

These are just hearsays about that 2003 thing, i never heared about it before so i hope someone else in this thread can look into them and tell me if im being misinformed

Some guy that did a 500 minute presentation called the unified field theory says that in februari 2003 there was a meteor twice the size of jupiter passing trough our solar system. It should have enormous gravitational effects on every planet in the solar system but it didn't.
At first he says he doesn't know why but at the end of the video he says he believes somebody is taking care of us.
Now i'm not completely sure how to interpret this but to me either it means he's making it all up or his explenation is so crazy nobody would believe him anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dthoughts

Some guy that did a 500 minute presentation called the unified field theory

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Yeah.....

"Unified Field Theory" is a bad sign. It's what Einstein spent his last years working on. It seems like there's no such thing at this point. Such a discovery would be awesome. If it worked out, it would rightly be hailed as one of the greatest accomplishments in history. But in conjunction with ...

Quote:

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says that in februari 2003 there was a meteor twice the size of jupiter passing trough our solar system. It should have enormous gravitational effects on every planet in the solar system but it didn't.

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It's pretty easy to dismiss it as garbage. Meteors are made out of rock. Rock is normally heavier than gas which is what Jupiter is made out of. Jupiter is the most massive object in the solar system other than the sun. So twice the size of Jupiter and made out of rock is pretty big. It would definitely exert a massive effect on everything near it. Given that the sun is largely hydrogen and helium and something about 1.5 (Off the top of my head. Could be a little bit larger. The factor is less than 2 though) times the mass of the sun turns into a black hole when there are no fusion reactions providing outward pressure, something that massive *may* be large enough to turn into a black hole itself. Either way, we can pretty much write this guy off as a fringe lunatic.

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At first he says he doesn't know why but at the end of the video he says he believes somebody is taking care of us.

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Well it would pretty much take god to make a mass of that size not exert gravitational influence on everything around it and, as previously established in this thread, god doesn't exist. That leaves us with.

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Now i'm not completely sure how to interpret this but to me either it means he's making it all up or his explenation is so crazy nobody would believe him anyway.

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I don't see that these two are mutually exclusive in any way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

It IS to examine all of the theories and try to make the variables fit, because it is the only way to actually and empirically put the theories to the test, in the coming 2 years.

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But you realize that by doing so, you will mold a whole bunch of coincidences and unusual events that have no correlation (besides in your mind) to corroborate your preconceived notion? This is almost the dictionary definition of confirmation bias, and is a very poor way of conducting an investigation.

Also here you say that you want to empirically test the validity of these beliefs, but later on you say that you're not interested in their scientific plausibility... so I remain 100% confused on what you're trying to do.

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I didn't "believe" her, even before I knew that the deadline for the theory was back in 2003. Why are you asking me this?

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Because you seem intent on ignoring the credibility of this woman, but you know as well as I do that you wouldn't believe her because she is batshit insane :P.

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I'm just trying to get an amalgamation of things that could be misconstrued as things that validate the 2012 theory, when taken together.

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This is probably the biggest flaw in the thread. There is no 2012 theory, only the end of the Mayan calendar. The Mayan December 31st if you will (only much more significant), but no associated prophecies. All these beliefs have come within the last century, from people trying to attribute meaning to a rather mystical date (not unlike yourself). With nothing to work with, you can attribute absolutely anything you want to 2012, therefore what's the point?

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Originally Posted by Jeff777

What woman are you referring to? To the best of my knowledge, Nibiru wasn't an idea orchestrated by any particular person. From what I understand the Sumerian tablets were deciphered and it speaks about a planet named Nibiru.

http://www.maya12-21-2012.com/nibiru2SolarSystem02.jpg

Then again, sites like Sitchin Is Wrong help offer opposing views for what sitchin largely spent his life researching.

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Nancy Lieder

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Originally Posted by Spartiate

But you realize that by doing so, you will mold a whole bunch of coincidences and unusual events that have no correlation (besides in your mind) to corroborate your preconceived notion?

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*clears throat and picks up megaphone*
"YES!"

But I must ask, what is my preconceived notion?
(Rhetorical question, seeing as how I don't have one. I am simply playing with ideas.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spart

This is almost the dictionary definition of confirmation bias, and is a very poor way of conducting an investigation.

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Were this an actual, serious "investigation," this would bother me. But it's not. So it doesn't. Apparently, I took the OP much less seriously than some of you. Maybe it's my fault. Maybe I just didn't put enough thought into how some of the most notorious skeptics were going to interpret it. Hindsight is 20/20, you know. As I said before, this is just playing with the most popular theories, to see how closely upcoming events can be interpreted as having to do with them. I'm Not Trying To Prove Them Right, with any sense of seriousness. It can be taken as no more than an attempt to see what events the theorists might try to explain away as being a part of their "Armageddon/Paradigm/Rapture" interpretations. I honestly didn't think that I was going to be spending this much time defending this thread, as if I'm genuinely trying to prove those interpretations right. It is a Game; a playful thought experiment. I thought it might be kind of fun and interesting, but I gotta say that I'm kind of over it now. If I haven't been able to sufficiently convey the light-heartedness of this thread, by now, it was probably a bad idea to begin with. So whatever.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spartiate

Also here you say that you want to empirically test the validity of these beliefs, but later on you say that you're not interested in their scientific plausibility... so I remain 100% confused on what you're trying to do.

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Empirically testing the validity of the beliefs would have been a byproduct of throwing all of the coincidences and unusual events that could (even loosely) be related to the most popular theories into the thread, and see how they develop over time, if at all. Apparently, this is impossible to understand, and I'm tired of explaining it. Forget it.

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Originally Posted by Spart

Because you seem intent on ignoring the credibility of this woman, but you know as well as I do that you wouldn't believe her because she is batshit insane :P.

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And I've explained why I am ignoring it. I've come to the conclusion that either It's not coming out right, or it's not sinking in.

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Originally Posted by Spart

This is probably the biggest flaw in the thread. There is no 2012 theory, only the end of the Mayan calendar. The Mayan December 31st if you will (only much more significant), but no associated prophecies. All these beliefs have come within the last century, from people trying to attribute meaning to a rather mystical date (not unlike yourself). With nothing to work with, you can attribute absolutely anything you want to 2012, therefore what's the point?

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The point is that it was supposed to be in fun - a chance to play with the possibilities, without turning it into a serious friggin' debate on whether the wild claims have solid bases. The Don't. And It's Obvious. I understand that the end of the Mayan calendar is the only thing that is ACTUALLY supposed to happen. This was supposed to just be a task to humor some of the fringe theories/interpretations that have come after those initial misinterpretations. That's all. But I can see that this isn't going to go down, the way I intended, because some people are just so intent on falsifying wild claims, even when it's been explicitly stated was that the whole point was to play along with them. Knee-jerk reactions abound.

To be honest, I figured it might be met with a little more open-mindedness, in Inner Sanctum. I should have known better. It feels kind of lame to invoke Inception on this, but I suddenly feel like Eames, commenting on how Aurthur is the best at what he does, but has no imagination. (Refer to Sig.)

But I'm tired. Maybe I'll play around with this a little more, later on, but for right now, this thread can pretty much fizzle and die for all I care...

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

They Don't. And It's Obvious.

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Not to many people! Especially in inner sanctum of all places, I had no reason to expect otherwise...

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Originally Posted by Spartiate

Not to many people! Especially in inner sanctum of all places, I had no reason to expect otherwise...

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And what better place would there be to get genuine input/information about the topic (rather than the constant attempts to try to disprove/dissent against the whole thing, which I knew was inevitable), than an area frequented by people who are most likely to believe some of those theories? :?

It's cool. Forget about it...

This is sort of like saying why would you read/write a fiction book. BECAUSE IT'S FUN!
So stop your skepticism for the sake of fun, please.

Sarah Palin will be elected as president of the USA.

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Originally Posted by Spartiate

I mean you can look at all the "predictions"

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There is only ONE prediction. The REAL prediction that is being spoken through the living Mayans, represented by Cirilo Perez Oxlaj, highest elder of the living Mayans.

What Cirilo teaches is that we live in a universe where time is cyclical, or, our lives revolve around cycles. Like the seasons, the waning and waxing of the moon. The living Mayans believe we human beings are not separate from these cycles. Just as the sun and moon influence physiological processes in the human being, the Mayans believe other and greater (in scale scope and size) celestial cycles also greatly influence human behavior, down to our evolution as a people.

An apx. 26,000 year long cycle is ending, composed of five ages. A new cycle is beginning come Dec. 21st 2012. That date is significant because, its not just the end of an apx 5000 year long age, but the larger cycle that it belongs to. These cycles aren't arbitrary or imaginary, they correlate to real celestial cycles. The Mayans believe, and not just the Mayans, that with each new age mankind has the capacity to overcome obstacles in the previous age, therefore evolving exponentially as a people.

But this new sun (its a sun cycle) that we are entering is very important. From what I understand, to living Mayans, this new sun marks a time where mankind reaches its greatest potential, and has the capacity to accomplish true global world peace, prosperity and happiness. The reason why it also marks a spiritual age for mankind is simply because none of those things are possible without a complete global paradigm shift.

Its popularly believed by historians that the Mayans just appeared not so long ago, about 2000 years ago. But Cirilo disagrees and says that their texts testify that the Mayan people were here the last time a cycle of the sun ended, apx. 26,000 years ago. Cirilo also explains that many of their ancient texts were hidden from the conquistadors, because the Mayans rightly feared the conquistadors would destroy everything. These texts were given to the Hopi. The Hopi elder has conferred with Cirilo (unless I'm crazy) and has said that yes they have kept ancient and most sacred texts hidden from us, the white mans world.

The Hopi elder also agrees with Cirilo that
1. The Hopis themselves are descendants of the Mayans
2. That the Mayans descend from a much older and ancient civilization than our historians have recognized

Cirilo believes that the reason why the living Mayans can talk about 2012 and what is going to happen is because
1. Time is cyclical, cycles repeat, certain scenarios that happened 26,000 years ago will happen again
2. And because the Mayans, or their descendants, recorded what happened the last time

Cirilo is not exactly clear on what will happen. But he has alluded:
1. The shift is already happening. While 2012 marks the beginning of the New Sun, the Shift into the New Sun has already begun!
2. To everyone waiting for doomsday, what are you waiting for? As far as Cirilo can see the world is already suffering and perishing. How much worse do you want things to get?
3. The shift will NOT happen on Dec. 21st 2012, but it will happen very fast over the course of at least a decade (of which started at least five years ago)
4. Things will happen that might "look" like bad things. But they are only bad if you choose to remain the same. The New Sun will facilitate change, and anyone who tries to hold back change will find themselves suffering (and globally if we hold back change we will perish as a race)
5. Cirilo gives us a few hints, learn to live with Mother Earth, or suffer
6. Cirilo gives us another hint, our happy future relies on the marrying of the guidance and wisdom of ancient cultures with the knowledge and science of the modern world (eagle and condor myth if you ask me!)



To answer Oneironauts question, yes I think current events completely line up with the Mayan prophesy of a New Sun, marked by a global paradigm shift hailing global peace, happiness and abundance for all.

This future is NOT possible without truth, and it is not possible without access to that truth, which is not possible if we aren't a global community. Is there a technology that gives us the capacity to act as a global community, and spread truth as a global community? I'm bloody using it right now!

I'm not saying the shift relies on the internet, but that the internet is going to be a tool for the shift. From wikileaks, to Iran 2009, to recent revolution in Egypt. There is a connection between wikileaks and the latest revolutions in the middle east. The demand for civil rights as you demand truth, understanding that tyrannical control relies on the control of information (deceit). Which is why the internet, a tool where revolutionaries can post the truth of their revolution, was so crucial. Could Egypt have prevailed, if no video could have been posted online? Sure. But not in the way it has prevailed. The struggle would have taken months, years, even decades.

The revolution in Egypt has a global resonance. It took fire spontaneously over night. It was led by the people, not by any organization. It was a successful revolution that only lasted about two 1/2 weeks! That's it! That's not even a month! Think about it! It's virtually unheard of historically!

What happened in Egypt was MODERN. M O D E R N. Its modern for so many reasons Im too lazy to talk about in this post. But modern, in this economy, also means GLOBAL!

Who here ever imagined at the start of 2011 that Egypt would have a historical revolution? No one. I repeat. NO ONE. But it happened, right?

That's what the Shift is like. Sudden. Sudden. Sudden. Sudden! Now Cirilo says we have a choice in this Shift, get on board or get run over!

Sounds like new-agers taking credit for the work of scientists to me. I guess there won't be any paradigm shift there :P

You can say that, or u can say that science and "new agers" have something in common.

If some wise and ancient civilization much older than us that predicted a lot of things predicted global connection 26.000 years ago i don't think u have to take that lightly and look fully into it.
To me it seems like people all over the world are starting to see the truth more clearly. People are tired of being supressed by dictators be it government dictators or economical dictators.
If humans have ancient knowledge that has been forgotten by the masses now is as good a time as ever for the rest to find out because the internet now contains this information open for everyone.

I think its important you keep an open mind for this sort of stuff because it may sound weird or crazy to you but thats also what it looks like when somebody tries to explain lucid dreaming to someone who doesn't give a shit.

This is everything Spartiate feared....

Thank you for you views, Juroara and DThoughts...

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Originally Posted by Dthoughts

You can say that, or u can say that science and "new agers" have something in common.

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Ok? What do they have in common?

This is typical new-age babble. It has zero content. You can say that the sky is a color. What color? Please enlighten me. From where I sit, one has an open mind and a respect for the truth. The other accepts whatever pretty sounding flotsam comes floating down the river so long as they don't have to think too hard or admit that they're wrong. Can you guess which is which?

Enough.
Thanks to everyone who at least tried to humor me and go along with the (however flimsy) direction I attempted to take this thread in. I should have known this wasn't possible. I already see what this thread is going to become, and I'm not going to sit here and watch it happen.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...Z---Goku-S.gif

That's a shame, I was planning on posting. O...don't let people ruin your threads, just kick them out or delete their posts. It's your prerogative as a mod. :P If I hadn't closely policed my vibrational frequency thread it would have ended after the second page instead of being like 16 pages.

See...this is why we can't have nice things. :shakehead2:

True enough.
...I'll give it some thought....

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Originally Posted by Aquanina

See...this is why we can't have nice things.

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Iknorite? :chuckle:

So this is what's going to happen:

After a few conversations with people from both sides of this (tangential) argument, in and out of PM, I've decided to re-open the thread. However, it has been shown that some hardcore skeptics (even though I sympathize with their motives) are just incapable of enough tolerance to allow such a fringe discussion to progress, without trying to destroy every single post they believe has an illogical base. So, going forward, any further detraction is just going to be deleted. I really just don't have the patience, anymore.

Since it apparently wasn't perfectly clear, on the first go-round, let me repeat: This is not a thread for debate about whether 2012 claims are logical, or have a factual base. This is a thread in which to present the most widely-held theories, and to toy with the idea that they are substantial, to see how well they fit with current events. Period.

If you are so skeptical of the whole thing - or so "offended" by the fact that some people believe in this stuff (or can pretend they do, long enough to discuss the implications) - that you simply can't play along without trying to start a fight over the subject matter, your posts will be treated as off-topic. My only advice to you would be to create your own thread, in which you can debunk the entire 2012 myth, to your heart's content. This is not that kind of thread, so save your time and energy, and don't bring it here.

For those of you who would (inevitably) like to file a complaint, you know where my PM box is.

Gah I've heard many different theories it's impossible to determine exactly what will happen. It's like looking at many different religions, all claiming to be the true way.

I've heard everything from end of the world via, pole shift, a rogue planet messing with the atmosphere, The Illuminati's plan to go forward with population reduction ad infinitum.

I do see Egypts recent revolution a significant indicator of Something, but what I don't know.

Regarding the I-Ching, a Man Named Terrence Mckenna created timewave zero, I'm not sure how but he plotted a computer graph which measures significant upheavals in human history on a timeline which ends in 2012, when the graph finally goes do zero. How he used the I-Ching to plot this graph... I'm not sure. But there's some interesting videos about Timewave Zero on youtube.

I've also seen many New agers take 2012 in much like a cult would. They say that in 2012, humans with enough positive karma will vibrationally shift into a new state of being on a second earth of paradise. Those with Bad karma will be left to deal with the poleshift (hell), and suffer or die and won't we aware of any shift. I have a significant problem with this theory: how is it any different than the Heaven and hell version in the bible, That only the true followers of gods (Mormons according to South Park) will make it to heaven. But excuse me, what about just regular joes and janes in all countries that have no concept of karma? what of them? Or the starving and dying children in third world countries? Are they going to be left behind on hell earth even though they have no concept of good or bad Karma? I mean come on. While this theory is certainly interesting, it stinks of fundamentalism.

Based on my observation: Lots of things seem to be happening at this planet all at once, and it feels like it's accelerating. for me time seems to be sped up. And so far a lot of people do seem to be more aware of government corruption, and various conspiracy facts and theories. The amount of people that seem to be aware of this is increasing, I know because 5 years ago, if i would have mentioned anything about corruption in governemtn etc etc, people would ignore me. Nowadays almost everytone I talk to doesn't ignore me on this matter.

Glad you decided to keep the thread going, O. Hopefully the fun can start now. :P

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Originally Posted by saltyseedog

omg I like that picture!!!! Sorry if I'm to imature....

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Same, kinda reminds me of p-funk for some reason.

Let me ask you this, did you feel the same as you do now five years ago? Ten years ago? Twenty years ago?
I remember the way the energy felt when I was a little kid in the 90's. I didn't understand it though. It feels much different now. These are energetic changes beyond our control. There is a big one coming though and its going to change the way people percieve the world.

(The image below was taken Aug. 11, 1999 in England at exactly 11:11 a.m. GMT, showing the Sun in full corona.)

http://www.divinecosmos.com/images/stories/s1701.gif

"The Mayans prophesied that from 1999 we have 13 years to realize the changes in our conscious attitude, to stray from the path of self-destruction and instead move onto a path that opens our consciousness to integrate us with all that exists.......The Mayans say that seven years after the start of Kat..n, so 1999, we would enter a time of darkness which would force us to confront our own conduct. The say that this is the time when mankind will enter 'The Sacred Hall of Mirrors', where we will look at ourselves and analyze our behaviors with ourselves, with others, with nature and with the planet in which we live. This will be a time in which all of humanity, by individual conscious decisions, decides to change and eliminate fear and lack of respect from all of our relationships. The Mayans prophesied that the start of this period would be marked by a solar eclipse on August 11, 1999, known to them as 13 Ahau, 8 Cauac. This also would coincide with an unprecedented planetary alignment, the 'Grand Cross' alignment. This would be the beginning of the last 13 years of the Kat..n period, the last opportunity for our civilization to realize the changes that are coming at the moment of our spiritual regeneration."

According to an article by David Hedges titled “Golden Age in 2012”, the golden age is expected to start on 22nd December 2012. He said in his article:-

In the Brahma-Vaivarta Purana, Lord Krishna tells Ganga Devi that there will be a Golden Age within the Kali-yuga that will start 5,000 years after the beginning of the Kali Yuga. The Golden Age will last for 10,000 years according to Lord Krishna. The Kali Yuga calendar began at midnight on 18 February 3102 B.C. according to many sources.

The ancient Hindu’s mainly used lunar calendars but also used solar calendars. If an average lunar year equals 354.36 days, then this would be about 5270 lunar years from the time when the Kali Yuga started until 21 Dec 2012, the year that the Mayans predict rebirth of our planet; and it is also about 5113 solar years of 365.24 days per year.

David Hedges ended his post with the following statement:-

Now we have another ancient source, Hindu Scripture’s called the Brahma-Vaivarta Purana, predicting a new world about the same time that the Mayans predicted it to come! Historically, this is an amazing fact since these two ancient cultures didn’t have any contact.

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Originally Posted by Heavy Sleeper

The name is Petrus Romanus (or Peter the Roman) . .
I don't think I'd be able to find a better link, but if it interests anyone, they can look more into it themselves. Again, I don't really believe it, but it's a funny coincidence.

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There is a direct message from Petrus Romanus at that same link (cited in message #20, this topic) on the discussion page, at the 'prev' revision of 17:22, 5 August 2009. It gives some insight into who "Peter the Roman" really is.

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Originally Posted by Aquanina

- Earth having a pole shift, or aligning with planets, or the center of our galaxy, or moving from one plane and shifting its spin, wobble, etc. etc., etc. ...someone research that please and give us some data!

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There is an alignment, but it happens every year at that time.

I know that one of the earlier people that talked about 2012 was Terence McKenna in his Novelty Theories and Timewave Zero.

As to the thread, I'll try to give some input.

http://insearchofsimplicitytoday.fil...-evloution.jpg

Quite some time ago I watched a 3 hour lecture on 2012 and the calendar (I'm looking for it*) and it basically went into detail on how the different levels of evolution of consciousness progress and get shorter each time the next circle starts. What I found interesting is that, viewed from a larger picture (big bang - 2012) some cycles do seem to outline some significant changes and if the names were correct, some of these appeared quite uncanny. I personally would put more emphasize on the big picture than picking out single events that happen now. At least start from a broader viewpoint, to understand the "changing curve".

*It was by Nassim Haramein.

I never actually checked the accuracy of either the dates nor the calendar itself.

In the lecture it was actually a lot more explained than in the picture I have posted.

We could look at the two dates that are open in the provided calendar:
Jan 5, 1999
Feb 11, 2011
Anything specific happen on exactly these days?

According to Wikipedia:
As to 1999: Apple Computer releases the Power Macintosh G3 (Blue & White)
But as for the date of Feb 11, 2011: Egyptian Revolution culminates in the resignation of Hosni Mubarak and the transfer of power to the Supreme Military Council after 18 days of protests.

Here is another:

http://www.flixya.com/files-photo/m/...2012217165.jpg


Anyway, I guess that existence (meaning everything) is so complex and versatile that it could be fitted into any "relative" system trying to put a static order on things to make it appear true and sensible. I personally prefer the notion of a bit more chaos, but sometimes I wonder if everything happens because it is supposed to, whether we want to or not.

Especially looking at events over the last 200 years makes it increasingly difficult to put them into "the correct order" and is almost necessarily vague. What's more, our perception of events is guided by media and may be biased as well.

That said, I believe that the most significant invention and tool to change everything forever is the internet. That's the closest we have come to observing a collective consciousness.

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Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

Ok? What do they have in common?

This is typical new-age babble. It has zero content. You can say that the sky is a color. What color? Please enlighten me. From where I sit, one has an open mind and a respect for the truth. The other accepts whatever pretty sounding flotsam comes floating down the river so long as they don't have to think too hard or admit that they're wrong. Can you guess which is which?

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Out of the top of my head i can't really name any examples but everytime science does a new discovery i remind myself that certain people have been saying that stuff for thousands of years. I don't appreciate another respond from you as we clearly aren't on the same page and i think ur just targeting me because you think you can easily win an argument with me. But you got to understand that im not trying to argue or force my beliefs on to anybody im simply trying to get to the bottem of things and find out the absolute truth.

And earlier you mentioned to me god does not exist. But my trial of thought is definetly not aimed toward the direction of a god you might imagine when you read the bible literally. I have way more sense than that.

peace

Believing in any god and believing in the christian bible god (I assume that's the bible you are talking about) requires the same amount of sense. That is, zero.

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Originally Posted by tommo

Believing in any god and believing in the christian bible god (I assume that's the bible you are talking about) requires the same amount of sense. That is, zero.

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You obviously misunderstood me. It's okay i wasn't very clear about it.

I base my beliefs not on one single book i look at all religions and i look at all spiritual philosophies and that's where i base my theories on. And i noticed a thread of truth in all those belief systems. And no the truth is not a bearded man in the sky who made the earth in 7 days. I have a way more realistic view on this. And although it has something to do with this 2012 thing (no i dont mean a specific date, i mean the moment we are i now and the moment we are heading towards) i'm not ready to commit myself and spout out everything that goes on in my mind because im still not sure if what i believe is actually fool proof.
Anyway for those of you reading who might be able to make a little sense of this it has to do with ancient Egypt, Jesus, Mohammed , Dreams, Mayan calender and eventually crop circles.

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Originally Posted by Jeff777

(The image below was taken Aug. 11, 1999 in England at exactly 11:11 a.m. GMT, showing the Sun in full corona.)

http://www.divinecosmos.com/images/stories/s1701.gif

"The Mayans prophesied that from 1999 we have 13 years to realize the changes in our conscious attitude, to stray from the path of self-destruction and instead move onto a path that opens our consciousness to integrate us with all that exists.......The Mayans say that seven years after the start of Kat..n, so 1999, we would enter a time of darkness which would force us to confront our own conduct. The say that this is the time when mankind will enter 'The Sacred Hall of Mirrors', where we will look at ourselves and analyze our behaviors with ourselves, with others, with nature and with the planet in which we live. This will be a time in which all of humanity, by individual conscious decisions, decides to change and eliminate fear and lack of respect from all of our relationships. The Mayans prophesied that the start of this period would be marked by a solar eclipse on August 11, 1999, known to them as 13 Ahau, 8 Cauac. This also would coincide with an unprecedented planetary alignment, the 'Grand Cross' alignment. This would be the beginning of the last 13 years of the Kat..n period, the last opportunity for our civilization to realize the changes that are coming at the moment of our spiritual regeneration."

---

Hey there is Jeff. I was looking forward to your input.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/1/...culusbrain.jpg

Many say 2012 will be the apocalypse. But, many also misinterpret the meaning of the word.

"Apocalypse" simply means "the removal of the veil".

An unveiling of falsehoods to truth. Not this negative projection of a world catastrophe or destruction as many may wish.

The only destruction that will take place will be the destruction of antiquated world views and limited/divided ideas of self.

The veil has already started to be lifted in many ways.

If you've been looking, hopefully you have been noticing inner growth and understanding in yourselves?

A revealing of you to yourself.

It's a time where social, political, biological, technological, ideological, and environmental changes reach a critical point of awareness.

One need only look around to see it on all fronts.

From overpopulation, global warming, deforestation, water shortages, food scarcity, ocean depletion, mass extinctions, peak oil, and ecosystem destruction---

To collapsing towers, economies, governments and creative technologies that spring from the ashes, such as, the social networking sites which connect people together and remove privacy, ignorance, and empower the common people enough to realize their place in the world---

Yes, one could say it's a process which has been going back since the dawn of mankind, which is true...

But it's been reaching a head...

An awareness and understanding of who...what... we are...

The self-aware universe is starting to awaken to it's potential.

With that potential comes also the potential to drop the ball if responsibilities are ignored or denied.

That is the choice. That is 2012.

I just became aware of this comet today. It was discovered in December, and it's projected to make two close passes to the Earth; on its way in and out of its arc around the sun.

C/2010 X1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Already there is all kinds of conspiracy theory buzzing about it:
Will Earthbound Comet Fulfill 2012 Prophecy? : Discovery News
Amateur Astronomer Being Threatened For Release Elenin Comet information? Or just another hoax?, page 1
YouTube - ELENIN / Nibiru / Planet X (What's Going to Happen?) - April 26, 2011 Update - (I can't help but face-palm at the fact that this guy is advertising his silver business. LMAO.)

Oh, it gets better. (Haha):
Chinese Scientists State That Behind Elenin Comes a UFO, page 1

Bunk or not, I'm going to be watching this whole Comet Elenin thing, really closely. :-?

[Edit:]
Also, this - from Former Supervising Astronomer @ the U.S. Naval Observatory (who many believe was killed by the government, over this very topic):


Gonna see if I can find that news article, shown on the computer at the end...

[Edit x2:]
Haven't been able to find the original article. Just a bunch of failed links. (Taken down?) I was able to find this article, though, which copied/pasted from it:
http://thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/...net_X_001.html

There is also a PDF that is linked to, at the bottom - provided by Dr. Mukai, of Kobe University - which looks interesting. So we ay not be hearing much about it, in the States, but it looks like something is out there.

Is this the same one which is constantly going along that same path? I'll have to dig out an old issue of Cosmos tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure there is one which just goes around the Sun and the Earth. It's never harmed us.

The thread lives.

I doubt very much this comet will pose any threat at all, just like any other comet that swings by us. But that won't stop the conspiracy theories from flooding in. Even if this thing passes by and absolutely nothing interesting happens with it, people will say that it's a sign that was foretold in prophecy. There are quite a lot of prophecies that involve the passing of a comet.

Sorry I'm late, guys.
This thread should get a lot more intersting now that I'm here.
I wanted to let everyone know that if you don't believe what I believe, you are dumb.

I really appreciate this thread, Oneironaut.. at least the idea behind it. It gets really old trying to debate with certain mindsets (I didn't say certain people).
Here are some arguments that I am tired of hearing:
"You are wrong about (this), because (this) doesn't exist."
"You are wrong, because that's not what science says."
"You are wrong, because (I state my belief AS IF IT IS FACT).
"You are a poo-head."
"The theory you mentioned is wrong because the author of the theory..."
The author of a theory has nothing to do with the validity of the theory itself. I think you've actually mentioned this, in this thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tommo

Is this the same one which is constantly going along that same path? I'll have to dig out an old issue of Cosmos tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure there is one which just goes around the Sun and the Earth. It's never harmed us.

---

Not sure if it's the same one that you're talking about, but I'm interested to see what info you have. :)

I don't get what 'constantly going along the same path' means, personally. That's what comets do... orbit the sun in large ellipses.

I don't get what the comet has to do with anything either. Comets zip past the Earth and round the solar system all the time, what's special about this one..?

It seems to me that anything is possible. Art Bell used to talk about the "quickening", or the idea that as time goes on, everything speeds up and becomes more complex.
We, as a species, have survived for thousands of years. However, we have not survived LIKE THIS for thousands of years. For the first time ever, it really only takes a total of one person with the right kind of power to make the decision that COULD potentially destroy us all. For the first time ever we have the ability to blow ourselves up, bio-engineer some life-form that can infect us all. For the first time ever we are dependant on a very complicated system of economics and locomotion (artificial ecosystem), that is also dependant on very advanced technology. For the first time ever we are polluting our planet. For the first time we are consuming WAY more resources than ever before possible. We have a population far beyond that which the planet can support.
I believe that at the heart of the population, in general, there is a compassion and love for fellow man (I use the L word loosely here) that is enough so that most people don't want the world's population to die off. Most people don't want everyone else to die. Most people want peace. However, there can be disputes concerning what kind of peace is acceptable, who deserves this peace, and of course power and resource struggles. In the past, the majority of mankind, being good-natured, were enough to keep the few outcast radicals at bay. However, now, as I said, for the first time ever, just one of those radicals can cause a lot of destruction.
We have been around for thousands of years. We have only been in THIS state for a few dozen years. The fact that the year in question, 2012, just happens to be during this particular time in history, is unsettling. It is at least an interesting coincidence.

I agree that human progress is accelerating, and I agree our current state of affairs is untenable. The idea that there being a doomsday date at this time is an 'interesting coincidence', though; come on, there's always a doomsday date. This happened in 2000, and already people are starting the fearmongering for 2020. In no sensible way can this be called a coincidence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xei

I don't get what 'constantly going along the same path' means, personally. That's what comets do... orbit the sun in large ellipses.

I don't get what the comet has to do with anything either. Comets zip past the Earth and round the solar system all the time, what's special about this one..?

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I think this comet is supposed to come between the Earth and the Moon, or at least very close... I think.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sloth

I think this comet is supposed to come between the Earth and the Moon, or at least very close... I think.

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Not exactly.

Quote:

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Reality Check

Comet Elenin will sweep nearest to Earth on Oct. 16 at a distance of 21 million miles and be moving fast enough to travel the distance from Earth to the moon in under five hours!

The effects of the comet on Earth at closest approach will be as inconsequential as that of a mosquito slamming head-on into an ocean-going supertanker.

Let's look at the physics. Comet Elenin is a loose agglomeration of volatile ices and dust a few miles across. It is therefore one hundred billionth the mass of our moon. (The relative difference is roughly the same as the mass of a mosquito vs. the mass of an oil supertanker.)

The comet will pass no closer to us than 84 times the Earth-moon distance.

Applying Isaac Newton’s laws of gravity, this means the comet's tidal pull on Earth -- at closest approach -- will be approximately one-hundred trillionth the force of the moon's tidal pull on Earth. And, we all now know that despite the dreaded Supermoon hype last week, there were no monster storms or earthquakes triggered by our satellite's gravitational tug at closest approach to Earth.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aquanina

Not exactly.

---

Don't argue with me.
The comet will do what I tell it to do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xei

I agree that human progress is accelerating, and I agree our current state of affairs is untenable. The idea that there being a doomsday date at this time is an 'interesting coincidence', though; come on, there's always a doomsday date. This happened in 2000, and already people are starting the fearmongering for 2020. In no sensible way can this be called a coincidence.

---

Of course the 2000 date was a "doomsday" date, because it was significant in SOME way.
2012 has been prophecized for a long time, by a lot of people. I believe it's quite a bit more significant than other doomsday dates.
However, that's as much as I can say about it.
This is kind of a scary time, but you are correct; other than prophecies, there is no evidence pointing to the actual date.

I hope this comet will be bright, it's been quite a while since a nice comet has graced our skies.

Someone launch a nuke so we can enjoy the beautiful glow as it shoots across the sky. Don't choose a target, just fire it in a random direction. It'll be like russian roulette, but on a far bigger scale.

Okay. I feel a little out of place here. But I haven't seen the mention of the coming age of Aquarius.

Age of Aquarius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia please someone read this and tell me what you think. Ever since I've watched Zeitgeist, I've connected 2012 to the coming age. After reading through this wikipedia, I found this.

"Amao states that the transition period between any two ages is based on two degrees' leeway at the point of intersection of two adjoining zodiacal constellations.[13] Based on this transitional structure, Amao has the Age of Aquarius commencing in 1950 with the transitional period from the Pisces age to Aquarian age covering the period 1876 to 2020. Amao follows the causative approach to the ages and believes that the energy from the arriving constellation of Aquarius is actually creating the changes on Earth that many astrologers associate with the Age of Aquarius.[14] The key characteristics of the Aquarian age according to Amao are: science will explain the mysteries of religion; knowledge and reason; freedom and equality, equality of the sexes and of religion; space exploration, supremacy of the United States over the former Pisces supremacy of Europe; and finally revelation of the Mystery.[15]

Amao also states that the Mayan Long Count calendar, that has an end-date of December 21, 2012, is associated with precession of the equinoxes and therefore can provide an important demarcation for the Age of Aquarius. Another technique used by Amao is the longterm conjunction cycle of the planets Saturn and Jupiter that will have a conjunction of these two planets at the very beginning of the sign Aquarius in 2020. Combined with the closing transition date of 2020 derived from the one degree cusp method, Amao is convinced that we lie at the threshold of the Aquarian age."

I really don't have much to say. I'm afraid of not making any sense, to be honest. I just want to know what you guys think of this.

2012 is only the resetting of the mayan calander. The ancient mayans themselves didn't predict any doomsday. It's just the resetting of their great year. much like how we re set our calenders every year on jan 1st.

However the Mayans DID say that we will go from the 3rd world (the one we are in right now) and the 4th world. Some places sooner and others later. And it has been predicted by not only the Mayans, but the Tibetans, the Hopi, the Hindus. TO be honest, only the Mayans have set it on a certain day 12/21/20012, but the Tibetans have said that it will happen in this decade (of 2012) and the Hindus said it will happen in the beginning of the 21st century. What will happen? A new paradigm. Also, I forgot to mention the Hermeticists have also mentioned it. It isn;t beginning to happen now, it is finishing up.

Great thread, O.

I've noticed human progress occur in some ways that are not tangible, such as behavior, or awareness. I'm encountering more and more people that seem to be more "awake," in the sense that they are self-aware. And I say "self-aware" in the sense that they are present; not enslaved by their own thoughts like so many are. At times, everyone is, but I'm seeing a lot more people who can let go of their egos and be present. More people understand, and accept these concepts than before. It's not so taboo to be aware. These are just my personal observations, but I believe this fits in with some of the 2012 hype, in the sense that I'm noticing a transition in people's behavior and thoughts on a pretty wide scale. Particularly the younger generations.

I've found that it's becoming easier for me personally to be compassionate, unbiased, and understanding, although I too still surrender to my own ego more often than I'd like.

I think the very fact that fewer people are regarding 2012 to be the "end of the world," and more and more people are talking about a shift in consciousness, or an awareness of a collective consciousness in it's own way could be interpreted as a re-affirmation of this shift in consciousness theory.

That, coupled with recent global events of populations standing up for their rights in a new way, could be aligned with 2012 theories. (This is a simple, unbiased observation, and not a cause to argue.) I think that, because of the nature of the events, not necessarily the events themselves. The aware, awake youth uprising. Anger, combined with peaceful determination. It's hard to articulate what I've observed in all of this. It could be interpreted by some to be a shift in consciousness.

For the record, O, earlier on, I don't think Xei was trying to be condescending, I think he didn't get what you intended to convey in your OP. Given the typical nature and tone of his posts, it may have been easy for you to assume that he was being intentionally antagonistic to spite those who may believe in these 2012 theories, but I genuinely don't get that vibe from anything he's contributed to this thread. I think there was just a misunderstanding. Just my .02.

I'm not sure of the exact date... i think in nov. of 2012 the 1300 ft diameter meteor called YU2005 discovered about one year ago is going to pass between the earth and the moon... supposably if it wobbled just 2 ft to the right (right now) it would end up potentially hitting the moon... and 5 ft to the left and it would be on course to hit the earth. I don't know what kind of a bang this would make... maybe nothing... maybe 30,000 atomic bombs? there is an online calculator that can tell you such things.

Then there is the north/south magnetic poles switching places.... i believe this happens approximately every 50,000 years? and we are about 150,000 years over-do... but this doesn't take place over night ... it probably takes hundreds if not thousands of years.

perhaps 2012 will be the year that there is irrefutable proof that we have already reached the global tipping point with regard to global warming. When you lose so much ice cover.... that ice no longer reflects the sun's heat back up into outerspace... and if a tipping point is reached then the temperature just keeps rising (even if pollution came to a halt over-night).

but, as alric said, maybe part of it is just that all of us want to be part of something big and important. I want to feel like i was here / now for a particular reason... i'm pretty sure i'd rather be alive now than at any point in history... but what about the future? If everything doesn't come to a screeching halt then i may regret not being able to become a Space-Cowboy.

I watched some shit on history channel about the Hopi prophecies coinciding with Mayan prophecies. Here's the list:

Quote:

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(From White Feather, Bear Clan, Hopi Tribe)
The Fourth World shall end soon, and the Fifth World will begin. This the elders everywhere know. The Signs over many years have been fulfilled, and so few are left.

First Sign: We were told of the coming of the white-skinned men, like Pahana, but not living like Pahana -- men who took the land that was not theirs and who struck their enemies with thunder. (Guns)

Second Sign: Our lands will see the coming of spinning wheels filled with voices. (Covered wagons)

Third Sign: A strange beast like a buffalo but with great long horns, will overrun the land in large numbers. (Longhorn cattle)

Fourth Sign: The land will be crossed by snakes of iron. (Railroad tracks)

Fifth Sign: The land shall be criss-crossed by a giant spider's web. (Power and telephone lines)

Sixth Sign: The land shall be criss-crossed with rivers of stone that make pictures in the sun. (Concrete roads and their mirage-producing effects.)

Seventh Sign: You will hear of the sea turning black, and many living things dying because of it. (Oil spills)

Eighth Sign: You will see many youth, who wear their hair long like our people, come and join the tribal nations, to learn our ways and wisdom. (Hippies)

Ninth and Last Sign: You will hear of a dwelling-place in the heavens, above the earth, that shall fall with a great crash. It will appear as a blue star. Very soon after this, the ceremonies of the Hopi people will cease.

"These are the Signs that great destruction is coming. The world shall rock to and fro. The white man will battle against other people in other lands -- with those who possessed the first light of wisdom. There will be many columns of smoke and fire such as White Feather has seen the white man make in the deserts not far from here. Only those which come will cause disease and a great dying.

"Many of my people, understanding the prophecies, shall be safe. Those who stay and live in the places of my people also shall be safe. Then there will be much to rebuild. And soon -- very soon afterward -- Pahana will return. He shall bring with him the dawn of the Fifth World. He shall plant the seeds of his wisdom in their hearts. Even now the seeds are being planted. These shall smooth the way to the Emergence into the Fifth World.

"But White Feather shall not see it. I am old and dying. You -- perhaps will see it. In time, in time..."

---

Took that from earthevolution.blogpsot.com

I think I have some catching up to do, on my own thread. Haha. I haven't checked this one out in a while, but I'm glad to see all of the contributions!! :happy:

I do wanna address this, though:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rainman

For the record, O, earlier on, I don't think Xei was trying to be condescending, I think he didn't get what you intended to convey in your OP. Given the typical nature and tone of his posts, it may have been easy for you to assume that he was being intentionally antagonistic to spite those who may believe in these 2012 theories, but I genuinely don't get that vibe from anything he's contributed to this thread. I think there was just a misunderstanding. Just my .02.

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Very possible (and likely), in which case I would apologize for the misunderstanding. You can definitely understand my frustration, though, because of his usual posting style - which I'm obviously not a fan of. It's all good, though. It's part of the reason I had taken a break from this thread, but I may get back into it, because I think it's fun to play with hypotheticals like this. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

However the Mayans DID say that we will go from the 3rd world (the one we are in right now) and the 4th world. Some places sooner and others later. And it has been predicted by not only the Mayans, but the Tibetans, the Hopi, the Hindus. TO be honest, only the Mayans have set it on a certain day 12/21/20012, but the Tibetans have said that it will happen in this decade (of 2012) and the Hindus said it will happen in the beginning of the 21st century. What will happen? A new paradigm. Also, I forgot to mention the Hermeticists have also mentioned it. It isn;t beginning to happen now, it is finishing up.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

I watched some shit on history channel about the Hopi prophecies coinciding with Mayan prophecies. Here's the list:

Quote:

---

(From White Feather, Bear Clan, Hopi Tribe)
The Fourth World shall end soon, and the Fifth World will begin. This the elders everywhere know. The Signs over many years have been fulfilled, and so few are left.

First Sign: We were told of the coming of the white-skinned men, like Pahana, but not living like Pahana -- men who took the land that was not theirs and who struck their enemies with thunder. (Guns)

Second Sign: Our lands will see the coming of spinning wheels filled with voices. (Covered wagons)

Third Sign: A strange beast like a buffalo but with great long horns, will overrun the land in large numbers. (Longhorn cattle)

Fourth Sign: The land will be crossed by snakes of iron. (Railroad tracks)

Fifth Sign: The land shall be criss-crossed by a giant spider's web. (Power and telephone lines)

Sixth Sign: The land shall be criss-crossed with rivers of stone that make pictures in the sun. (Concrete roads and their mirage-producing effects.)

Seventh Sign: You will hear of the sea turning black, and many living things dying because of it. (Oil spills)

Eighth Sign: You will see many youth, who wear their hair long like our people, come and join the tribal nations, to learn our ways and wisdom. (Hippies)

Ninth and Last Sign: You will hear of a dwelling-place in the heavens, above the earth, that shall fall with a great crash. It will appear as a blue star. Very soon after this, the ceremonies of the Hopi people will cease.

"These are the Signs that great destruction is coming. The world shall rock to and fro. The white man will battle against other people in other lands -- with those who possessed the first light of wisdom. There will be many columns of smoke and fire such as White Feather has seen the white man make in the deserts not far from here. Only those which come will cause disease and a great dying.

"Many of my people, understanding the prophecies, shall be safe. Those who stay and live in the places of my people also shall be safe. Then there will be much to rebuild. And soon -- very soon afterward -- Pahana will return. He shall bring with him the dawn of the Fifth World. He shall plant the seeds of his wisdom in their hearts. Even now the seeds are being planted. These shall smooth the way to the Emergence into the Fifth World.

"But White Feather shall not see it. I am old and dying. You -- perhaps will see it. In time, in time..."

---

Took that from earthevolution.blogpsot.com

---

Okay, so which one are we in and which will we be going in to in 2012????
Dannon says 3rd to 4th

Omnis says 4th to 5th.

And all the stuff in maroon.... has already happened. Which should mean that we are now in the 8th and will progress to the 9th in 2012?

I don't get it....

Lulz the 4th world refers to this incarnation of civilization. The fifth world refers to the next incarnation of human civilization. The 8 signs refer to the tells that the next world is approaching. We've passed all but the 8th.

I don't know what Dannon is referring to. It's possible him or someone else was interpreting events differently and pieced 3 worlds together while the Hopi supposedly orally preserved this knowledge throughout these incarnations.

EDIT: Dannon may have been thinking of the 3 transformations which have occurred. We are currently about to undergo our 4th transformation. The first three were fire, ice and flood.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by White Feather, Bear Clan, Hopi Tribe

Ninth and Last Sign: You will hear of a dwelling-place in the heavens, above the earth, that shall fall with a great crash. It will appear as a blue star. Very soon after this, the ceremonies of the Hopi people will cease.

---

Well that's kinda vague. Skylab? MIR? ISS?

All good prophecies are....

Some say Skylab, some say it means a comet is coming, some say it means Shambhala is descending.

I think it's kind of hard to talk about this without at least mentioning the #Occupy protests. Of course, there are many cynics who scoff at the entire 'movement', but these protests started as a direct extension of the uprisings in the Middle East, and perfectly coincide with the whole 'waking up' aspect of the prophecies, as well as marking a potential turn away from the ignorance of wealthy elitism and materialism.

Of course, it is a BIG IF (and at this point, it's way too early to tell just how far this whole thing is going to go), but what seems to be the beginning stages of this global movement is definitely coinciding with the timeline. Who knows where the whole movement might take us, within the next year or so? With information spreading as fast as it can, through the Internet, and more and more people using the uprisings overseas to provide inspiration and galvanization, here, it would be hard to say that there isn't a very big level of 'change' (analogous to some interpretations of the prophecy) that is potentially on the horizon.

Just thought I'd throw that out there...

I definitely think this is more than just some political movement like the tea party. It's spread to every major city in the world.

I still think the unveiling will be humanity unlocking their inner ability to manifest their desires with the power of the mind. If we could get this idea into the mainstream by verifying it scientifically, we could reverse the problems being caused and heal the planet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

I think it's kind of hard to talk about this without at least mentioning the #Occupy protests.

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I wish people would stop with this hash tag (#) stuff. This isn't twitter. It reminds me of those obnoxious people that say "L O L" out loud instead of laughing.

Anyway, I do agree that Occupy is the beginning of the worldwide revolution, but whether it's towards true freedom or just a variant of Bolshevism remains to be seen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

I definitely think this is more than just some political movement like the tea party. It's spread to every major city in the world.

I still think the unveiling will be humanity unlocking their inner ability to manifest their desires with the power of the mind. If we could get this idea into the mainstream by verifying it scientifically, we could reverse the problems being caused and heal the planet.

---

I don't believe in psychic powers, but I do believe in positive thinking. However, I've found that it doesn't work when you're drugged up on SSRIs and other mind-killing drugs. Until we quit our addiction to these drugs, we'll be a very emotionally scarred species.

That's why I said scientific verification. I'm not concerned with trying to convince enough people to believe in the power of the mind.

I would say this is different from the russian revolution for several reasons. For one its non-violent. For two, there's no leaders. Even if it turned violent there's no plan to install a dictator of a proletariat. If anything they'd just reform the democracy in place to make it healthier.

2012 will go as any other year goes. There is nothing more or less special about 2012 than any other year. Ps, to whoever does not believe I have psychic powers, I sincerely think you may be wrong.

If these protests go through 2012, I take my hat off for them!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

That's why I said scientific verification. I'm not concerned with trying to convince enough people to believe in the power of the mind.

I would say this is different from the russian revolution for several reasons. For one its non-violent. For two, there's no leaders. Even if it turned violent there's no plan to install a dictator of a proletariat. If anything they'd just reform the democracy in place to make it healthier.

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Are you sure about those things that you've said? You'll forgive me if I don't just believe that you're an expert on the early history of the russian revolution.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cmind

Are you sure about those things that you've said? You'll forgive me if I don't just believe that you're an expert on the early history of the russian revolution.

---

You are forgiven.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

I think it's kind of hard to talk about this without at least mentioning the #Occupy protests. Of course, there are many cynics who scoff at the entire 'movement', but these protests started as a direct extension of the uprisings in the Middle East, and perfectly coincide with the whole 'waking up' aspect of the prophecies, as well as marking a potential turn away from the ignorance of wealthy elitism and materialism.

Of course, it is a BIG IF (and at this point, it's way too early to tell just how far this whole thing is going to go), but what seems to be the beginning stages of this global movement is definitely coinciding with the timeline. Who knows where the whole movement might take us, within the next year or so? With information spreading as fast as it can, through the Internet, and more and more people using the uprisings overseas to provide inspiration and galvanization, here, it would be hard to say that there isn't a very big level of 'change' (analogous to some interpretations of the prophecy) that is potentially on the horizon.

Just thought I'd throw that out there...

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Straight off the occupy dallas website
"Occupy Dallas, as part of a global movement, stands in solidarity...."

:)

My opinion, what's being awakened can't be put back in the box. Sure, maybe next year the movement will evolve and it won't be called occupy. Maybe something else, maybe different websites. Different strategies. It is hard to say how it will develop in America. But it will develop. I'm just not sure if it's gonna grow out on the streets or online first.

And when I saw Egypt have her awesome peaceful revolution - I understood two things. This was a modern and universal revolution that every western country can repeat without dragging the country into a bloody meaningless war. And two, that I couldn't wait to join america's own version of it!

I don't know why so many people are confused about the occupy movement. I'm trying to understand, but I have a feeling it was simply because they watched the news.

If 2012 global shift does happen, and the Mayans are right about this happening i'd guess someone told them about this, aliens perhaps? I don't know much about this global shift. I pretty much know zero about this thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

I pretty much know zero about this thing.

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Obviously, because the Mayans never said anything about a global shift... Spreading lies like this is why I hate this thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spartiate

Obviously, because the Mayans never said anything about a global shift... Spreading lies like this is why I hate this thread.

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Sorry, i mean "IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD!!!!!".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spartiate

Spreading lies like this is why I hate this thread.

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Then leave.

Or at least pay attention. I'm not going to explain the whimsical, hypothetical nature of this thread, again. If it really pains you so much to see it, go elsewhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spartiate

Obviously, because the Mayans never said anything about a global shift... Spreading lies like this is why I hate this thread.

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Nor did anyone in this thread claim that's what the mayans were referring to. Just because the mayans gave us the date 2012 doesn't mean all prophecy about the 2012 shift comes from mayan prophecy. It mostly comes from Hopi prophecy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Then leave.

Or at least pay attention. I'm not going to explain the whimsical, hypothetical nature of this thread, again. If it really pains you so much to see it, go elsewhere.

---

It's not hypothetical, it's "reverse science". You're looking for stuff to corroborate a preconceived notion... I know you're a smart guy, it pains me to see you go about the thread in this way. In the OP you say you want a serious discussion, but any attempts to inject some objectivity are labelled as "missing the point" of the thread... I still think it's important to point out the blatant mistruths that some people bring here, granted I could possibly use more tact in the future.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spartiate

It's not hypothetical, it's "reverse science". You're looking for stuff to corroborate a preconceived notion...

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It's not an attempt at science, at all, but if that's the way you want to label it, that's fine. Yes, I'm looking for stuff that might corroborate fringe theories about a paradigm shift in 2012. The point that you're repeatedly missing is that even these things, that seem to coincide, are NOT being compiled as a way to prove the claims that such a prophesied event (or the different interpretations of it) are true. It is for shits and giggles, because I find the coincidences interesting - and your repeatedly barking that 'it's all bullshit' (which it likely is) does not negate that there are entertaining events going on right now, that can very neatly be placed into such prophecy. It is on this premise that the thread exists. That's ALL. You are making way too much of a big deal, out of absolutely nothing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spartiate

I know you're a smart guy, it pains me to see you go about the thread in this way. In the OP you say you want a serious discussion, but any attempts to inject some objectivity are labelled as "missing the point" of the thread... I still think it's important to point out the blatant mistruths that some people bring here, granted I could possibly use more tact in the future.

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In the OP, I say that I wanted a serious discussion about the ACTUAL EVENTS that are happening in the world (big events, specifically), which could be attributed to the whole 'End of the World and/or Paradigm Shift' hysteria. Unfortunately, you are so stuck in your crusade against ignorance, that all you hear is "OMFG, Let's find events to prove this prophecy is true!!!111ONE!!!" And then, you probably think that, when it's all said and done, someone's going to use whatever's on this thread to say "OMG!! ZEH PROFYSEES WERE TRUE!!!" Once again, this is not what the thread is about.

Such knee-jerk reactions usually come with years of hard skepticism, so I can't say that I blame you. I just wish (with all due respect, because I like you) you had enough tolerance to just sit back and stfu for a minute, and let the thread run its course. If you don't feel that something fits within the framework of the idea we are playing with, here, then by all means, say so. That type of disagreement has never been barred, here. But if you just want to chime in and say stuff that amounts to "That's bullshit, and you're all fucking stupid for even entertaining this idea," then please...Seriously...Kick rocks.

Apparently, this is supposed to be a pretty significant finding in the Mayan world (or at least those who propose the whole Mayan Prophecy thing, and many New Age-y and conspiracy theory websites). I don't know very much (read as: anything) about these codices. Can someone, who's a little more knowledgable about the whole thing, fill me in on the importance of these codices having been found - if anything at all?

Over 1,000 Mayan Codices Discovered in Museum Basement ? Mayan Prophecy to be Fulfilled on December 21 2012 | in5d.com |

Hey, I wanted to put my 2 cents into this thread...I didn't read the whole thread but I kept seeing things about "prophecies" of death and destruction.

I think this is FAR from the truth..in fact I believe it's the complete opposite

I agree with the OP thread title...the 2012 Paradigm shift is DEFINITELY in it's beginning stages


Look at how the internet has changed things, look how it is connected everything and everyone. ANYONE can now be a film maker, a game designer/programmer/developer, an animator, an artist, a musician if they have the passion to do so. Music equipment is getting cheaper, animation and filming equipment is getting cheaper

I bet in 10 more years EVERYTHING is going to be connected to the internet as one "global network". Google is already coming out with devices that can control homes.
Internet television...watch the content YOU want, anyTIME you want. They already have webcams with biometric face recognition also

Its going to be where if you want to be an actor all you have to do is submit your videos or just simply network with independent film makers. The quality of indie films are getting closer to that of mainstream/hollywood quality.

We now have information at the tip of our fingers..learn what you want , when you want, anytime you want


That's just the scientific and technological side now go to the SPIRITUAL side


The whole idea of it and the structure of it is beautiful that once you "awaken" out of this "dream world" this "matrix' or "illusion" of ego, separateness, and fear.. your tapped into an unlimited source of peace, happiness, well-being, rest, creativity, passion, ENERGY almost seems to be too go to be true

Couple that with the fact that we can become lucid in our dreams and do whatever we wish, free to build..free to create..free to destroy...free to enjoy..

I truly believe we are all one mind..one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, and this one mind wants to share and create with itself..it's only natural..

So not only will we have this explosion of technology but we will have the peace and well being of actually enjoying these things as well as the simple things that are usually taken for granted


2012 will be great friends, we are moving into an extremely more positive world. Let the liberals and conservatives fight each other...We all will move into this new world order at the end of the day

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Majestic

Stuff

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What does this have to do with the 21st of December 2012?

..If you don't know, I don't know smh

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/done.gif

Thanks for enlightening me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Apparently, this is supposed to be a pretty significant finding in the Mayan world (or at least those who propose the whole Mayan Prophecy thing, and many New Age-y and conspiracy theory websites). I don't know very much (read as: anything) about these codices. Can someone, who's a little more knowledgable about the whole thing, fill me in on the importance of these codices having been found - if anything at all?

Over 1,000 Mayan Codices Discovered in Museum Basement ? Mayan Prophecy to be Fulfilled on December 21 2012 | in5d.com |

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I'd like to know more about this aswell. Omnis Dei, or Jeff, or Juroara would probably know this.

Galactic Federation of Light - Messege from Ashtar Command - YouTube!

Just wondering if anyone knows if they caught the person or people who hacked the news?

More codices were found? That's awesome! According to the elder Cirilo, its actually a part of the prophesy that hidden Mayan information would return to the Mayan people and be revealed to the world before 2012. Above all else I'm glad the Mayan people are getting a part of their heritage back. It's kinda like the dead sea scrolls, except they knew it was hidden.

The ceremonies next year sound crazy and uh, I dunno, out of place? What's Santana got to do with it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Galactic Federation of Light - Messege from Ashtar Command - YouTube!

Just wondering if anyone knows if they caught the person or people who hacked the news?

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Er... they didn't but they're ruling out an alien incident because of how isolated the incident was. One should be wary of alien communications anyway, they may claim all they want to do is stop nuclear bombs but next thing you know we're all part of the borg.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/p...3378392883.jpg
...thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Er... they didn't but they're ruling out an alien incident because of how isolated the incident was. One should be wary of alien communications anyway, they may claim all they want to do is stop nuclear bombs but next thing you know we're all part of the borg.

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I didn't believe it was aliens, why would they hack 1 station? they would have done every single one at the same time. But from what i hear back in those days it was extremly hard doing that, so it was someone who knew what they were doing.

Sorry couldn't help myself with that one.

Anyway, is there any serious logic behind the 2012 Paradigm Shift? Sorry if I missed something on the first 6 pages but is this all based on conspiracies and prophecies or do you believe that there is some serious factual information behind this? Just curious.

or it never happened and the "Video" (audio) was fake.

I don't know anything about the source of that video but it's pretty powerful. I remember watching it quite some time ago and it struck me quite deeply. At the time, i didn't go outside for weeks and i was just watching youtube videos of ufo's and channelings and stuff like that. I've seen so many ufos on youtube i was totally convinced that if i looked at the sky long enough i'd see a bunch of em flying around. for real, school started and i'd just tell anyone who listened that there are ufos flying in the sky. When they said i was crazy i just said, you just wait ! you just wait and see who has the last laugh! :lol:

'nyway, new age of aquarius, ashtar command and a galactic federation of light put aside the message expressed in that video still stands tall. "learn to listen to ur inner voice that tells you what is truth and what is chaos." etc. good stuff. I guess time will tell if there's really a new age coming.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quantiq

Sorry couldn't help myself with that one.

Anyway, is there any serious logic behind the 2012 Paradigm Shift? Sorry if I missed something on the first 6 pages but is this all based on conspiracies and prophecies or do you believe that there is some serious factual information behind this? Just curious.

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You seem to have just reacted to the thread title. I thought it was understood in the first post.

The purpose of the thread is to post global events happening in this time period that coincide nicely with the predictions of 2012 and paradigm shift. It has nothing to do with whether or not you believe in 2012, nor is it a debate on 2012, but a report of REAL events that fit within the context of the prophesy. Such as Arab Spring.

This just keeps getting better and better. Allegedly (and this is just a (highly unlikely) rumor), it's being reported that the Ark of the Covenent has also been found.

An Unbelievable Ark Of The Covenant Announcement And 10 Relic Trips (PHOTOS)

Even the Huffington Post is reporting it with a very 'yeah right' tone to it, but it's rather interesting that such a story would even be coming out now. :chuckle:

Haven't had the time to run through some of the newer posts in the thread, but I just thought I'd share that.

Weren't they saying on Ancient Aliens that the arc of the covenant was a battery?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by juroara

Such as Arab Spring.

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How is the arab spring 2012 prophecy?

Well if you want to talk about the transition from the old sun into the new sun - as far as I can understand for the Mayan people this is both literal and metaphysical - in that the transition is a new age where man transcends his old ways. The Mayan elder is calling for everyone to see themselves as brothers and sisters to end wars, starvation and suffering everywhere. So, dictators and regimes simply have no place in the era of the new sun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by juroara

You seem to have just reacted to the thread title. I thought it was understood in the first post.

The purpose of the thread is to post global events happening in this time period that coincide nicely with the predictions of 2012 and paradigm shift. It has nothing to do with whether or not you believe in 2012, nor is it a debate on 2012, but a report of REAL events that fit within the context of the prophesy. Such as Arab Spring.

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It would help if somebody could quote what the prophecy actually is. From like... actual historical records or something.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xei

It would help if somebody could quote what the prophecy actually is. From like... actual historical records or something.

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There is none. This thread is about entertaining the popular preconceptions of the 2012 phenomena by labeling anything remotely revolutionizing as "2012". Make sense?

Here's my contribution:

Pediatricians Announce 2011 Newborns Are Ugliest Babies In 30 Years | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

This clearly points to a great calamity in 2012.

Quote:

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It would help if somebody could quote what the prophecy actually is. From like... actual historical records or something.

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pfffffffffff

That would be nice wouldn't? XD There's videos of the Mayan elder speaking, Cirilo Perez Oxlaj if anyone is interested.

I think there is a codice concerning 2012, but most are basing the prophesy off of the Mayan calender and the cultural context of the Mayan people. The Mayan calender is a wheel - so once you reach the last day it just goes back to day one. This little bit of cultural context was missing all those years ago when people first said "the Mayan calender ends on 2012!". No, it doesn't "end" it just goes back to day one!

So understanding the Mayan culture is key to understanding their calender - which is really complicated and gives me a headache. Their long count calender is apx. 26,000 years long, composed of five apx. 5100 year long cycles. This calender follows the procession of the stars. Not only is a 5100 year long cycle ending *the 5th sun* but so is the entire longer cycle of 26,000. For the Mayans, this isn't just new year, this is THE new years of new years!

These cycles are important to the Mayans because they believe nature and by extension our lives are ruled by them - which is true. Were so used to our digital clocks we forget we are revolving on our earth's axis, around a sun, that is also revolving around the galaxy. But its much more complex than that. The Mayans seem to believe that these cycles don't just influence agricultural seasons, but they literally influence the evolution of man. That when mankind evolves is literally written in the cycles of the heavens.

This coincides with the Mayan creation beliefs. Man was created and destroyed several times - a cycle of death, rebirth and progressive evolution, as each time man was created God was intending a greater creation. For this reason, one can only suspect that the man made of corn (us) is also destined to be destroyed and to be replaced by a new man. (for the Mayans, its only a matter of time)

I don't think any Mayan looks in the mirror and says "im made of corn!" so I think this creation myth for Mayans is taken more mystically than literally. So the more mystical understanding of Mayan time in terms of humanity is - destruction and paradigm changes happen at the end and birth of a new Sun. Which also translates to the end and birth of a new man.

Because the Mayan long count deals with the procession of the stars - it is also related to beliefs of the Age of Aquarius which we are in/entering now *can't remember for the life of me*.

Both groups more or less paint the same picture for this age.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by juroara

pfffffffffff

That would be nice wouldn't?

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...yes.

Quote:

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I think there is a codice concerning 2012, but most are basing the prophesy off of the Mayan calender and the cultural context of the Mayan people. The Mayan calender is a wheel - so once you reach the last day it just goes back to day one. This little bit of cultural context was missing all those years ago when people first said "the Mayan calender ends on 2012!". No, it doesn't "end" it just goes back to day one!

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So when you said 'the Arab spring fits the prophecy'... by prophecy what you actually meant was... the Mayan calendar starting over. Which is not a prophecy.

Quote:

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These cycles are important to the Mayans because they believe nature and by extension our lives are ruled by them - which is true. Were so used to our digital clocks we forget we are revolving on our earth's axis, around a sun, that is also revolving around the galaxy.

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So let's defer judgement to a people who didn't know what stars are, that galaxies even existed, or that the Earth goes around the sun. Yeah why not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spartiate

Here's my contribution:

Pediatricians Announce 2011 Newborns Are Ugliest Babies In 30 Years | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

This clearly points to a great calamity in 2012.

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'Burton said this revolting lot stood in stark contrast to the 2006 newborns, which were the sexiest he'd ever seen.'

Well if you want to insult the Mayan people as idiots who don't know what stars are, then why are you even in this thread?

As it stands, the Mayan calender is more true to the reality of nature then the gregorian calender that we follow :? - thats why people are so intrigued by it. I mean, our calender is so dumb we need a leap year. Leap year doesn't exist in nature!

You asked about the prophecy - and I answered. It is based off their extremely complex long count calender *seriously look it up yourself* and the context of their culture. It is a prophecy. They created these wheels of time to prophecize future events based on their beliefs of cyclical time.

It seems like to me you want to turn this into a debate thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spartiate

There is none. This thread is about entertaining the popular preconceptions of the 2012 phenomena by labeling anything remotely revolutionizing as "2012". Make sense?

Here's my contribution:

Pediatricians Announce 2011 Newborns Are Ugliest Babies In 30 Years | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

This clearly points to a great calamity in 2012.

---

Please stop posting in this thread. And by 'please' I mean that any subsequent post you make after this - that amounts to the same BS perversion of what I've repeatedly taken the time to explain to you that this thread was about - is going to be taken as an act of trolling, and will be treated accordingly. I've spent way too long trying to facilitate some sort of understanding with you, for you to keep trying to be cute and sarcastic, as if you're simply ignoring every single thing I've said. If you don't understand (which I refuse to believe, at this point), then post under the premise of a lack of understanding. If you want to post like a troll, I will treat you like one.

Of course mayans don't look in the mirror and say "I'm made of corn!" They would say "I'm made of maize!"

Joking aside, do you know how much corn we eat in western culture? That shit is in everything. We are pretty much made of corn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...meditation.jpg

Ok. First of all, it needs to be said that this thread is a for a serious discussion of the facts about things that are going on in the world right now. This is not a place for believers to say "See, I told you! It's happening! 2012 is coming and will affect us all!!" just as it is not a place for disbelievers to come in with their "Uh-oh. Tin foil hat alert! Magic does not exist, therefore this is invalid!" rhetoric. To put it simply; if you cannot discuss this subject maturely and/or without being a complete douche-bag about it (and I know that some people can't), then you don't deserve to take part in this conversation, and you will be 'asked' to leave it.

With that out of the way, let's get down to it.

What are some of the theories about 2012? How has it been interpreted over the years. Some have said it's the end of the world. Some say it is a global paradigm shift; a transition into enlightenment; a period of 'awakening' into global consciousness. Some say it will be the second coming of Christ.' Are there any others that I'm missing?

Personally, I have never been one to believe in any of this - specifically the parts about the 'end of the world,' and the 'second coming of Christ. I have always been interested in the aspect of a paradigm shift, but have been completely skeptical about it. Now, though, my skepticism of the latter is waning. It's not that I believe current events are actually linked to the 'prophecy' - it could be pure coincidence, of course - but the timing and implications of all the unrest in the Middle East is something that can't easily be ignored. These events are quite significant, and fall a little above the realm of 'well, crazy stuff happens all the time' (IMHO). At the very least, they deserve some unbiased, open-minded analysis. What fascinates me the most is how easily these events can be interpreted to fit both of the latter theories I mentioned above:

Global Paradigm Shift / Awareness:
More and more people / cultures are beginning to stand up for their human rights, and the fever is spreading like wildfire. Thanks to technology, one uprising is leading to many, and people are beginning to get a feeling of their own self-worth, whom have never had it before. The sullen, uninspired lifestyle of living under dictatorial rule seems to be growing less and less tolerable, around the few remaining corners of the world where it still exists. There is a bit of an 'awakening,' in that people are becoming more aware of their power to change their lives and social situations.

Second Coming of Christ / Rapture:
Before I get too far into this, let me say that I am not a religious person. At all. I figure the Bible to be a book of proposed lifestyle guidelines, by way of metaphor, and not a literal translation of things that will physically come to pass (though there have been some strange 'coincidences,' over the years). Now, taking that into consideration: What is Christ? What is the word of Christ? What are Christ's principles? As I have come to believe, it is about love. It is about interacting socially with each other and displaying a sense of brotherhood to all, regardless of who they are or where they are. It is about empathy. About separating the lines between "you and me;" "us and them." Within these flames of revolution, we are seeing much of this. We are seeing people from all over the world showing a profound outpouring of affection and admiration for these people whom are trying to win their freedom. People are starting to wake up to the fact that, just because there are dictators in certain corners of the world, not all of the people of those regions share the same paradigms as those dictators. It is an increase in Christ's philosophy, as opposed to the evils of oppression and dictatorial rule.

I think all of this is very interesting. The timing, as I said, is fascinating - that it should happen now - after all of this time, and how it looks to be a domino effect that doesn't seem to be showing any signs of containing itself, as yet. Another thing I find interesting is that this is all starting / happening in the epicenter of the human species. The 'Cradle of Mankind,' as some would call it.

For such wild, metaphysical predictions to coincide so greatly with actual events is rare, to say the least, and I can't help but to be intrigued by it. So I just wanted to start some discussion on it. Does anyone have anything to add? Whether you are a true believer or a skeptic (as I am), contribute what you will. However - and I will say this again - check your arrogance at the door. This thread is for tempered discussion, not dissent, egoism nor (if possible) ignorance.

Aaannnd GO!

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You want to talk about facts?

Go ahead and tell me how many apocalyptic prophesies have been suggested in just the recent decades. Tell me how many times there is going to be a rapture, to me it sounds like every other day is the coming of Jesus Christ.

It sounds like you have this sort of predisposition to mysticism and fantastic desires that have convoluted a lot of your logic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by juroara

Well if you want to insult the Mayan people as idiots who don't know what stars are

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I'm not saying they're idiots, I'm saying stop treating them as sages about things they didn't know about (yes, that includes what stars are; what's your reason to think otherwise?). We stopped this whole dogma over personal experience thing in the 1800s (and I'm told the Eastern spiritualists much sooner), please get with the times.

Quote:

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As it stands, the Mayan calender is more true to the reality of nature then the gregorian calender that we follow :? - thats why people are so intrigued by it. I mean, our calender is so dumb we need a leap year. Leap year doesn't exist in nature!

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Yes it does. Our days correspond to the planet rotating once, during which the sun makes a full cycle of the sky. Our years correspond to the Earth going round the sun once. You may have noticed this also corresponds exactly to the cycles of the seasons. How on Earth is this 'not related to true reality'; it's the simplest and most fundamental cycle of our planet. What part of nature does the Mayan cycle correspond to? Don't tell me 'natural cycles'; I asking what specific natural cycle, and some examples of it.

Quote:

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You asked about the prophecy - and I answered. It is based off their extremely complex long count calender *seriously look it up yourself* and the context of their culture. It is a prophecy. They created these wheels of time to prophecize future events based on their beliefs of cyclical time.

It seems like to me you want to turn this into a debate thread.

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Nope, just a discussion in the original spirit that O intended it. It's hard to compare current events to the 'prophecies' of the Mayans if you don't know what the prophecies were.

I looked up what modern scholars of the Mayan texts say. Mark Van Stone, a Mayan scholar, says "there is nothing in the Maya or Aztec or ancient Mesoamerican prophecy to suggest that they prophesied a sudden or major change of any sort in 2012. The notion of a "Great Cycle" coming to an end is completely a modern invention". Sandra Noble, executive director of the Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies in Crystal River, Florida, says "to render Dec. 21, 2012 as a doomsday or moment of cosmic shifting is a complete fabrication and a chance for a lot of people to cash in."

Do you have any historical evidence of these 'wheels of time' and their use?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Of course mayans don't look in the mirror and say "I'm made of corn!" They would say "I'm made of maize!"

Joking aside, do you know how much corn we eat in western culture? That shit is in everything. We are pretty much made of corn.

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How terrible..?

What would you guys want in a survival pack for 2012? I'm gonna start selling them on eBay....

Compassion and a clear mind. Any other questions?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xei

I'm not saying they're idiots, I'm saying stop treating them as sages about things they didn't know about

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Once again. THIS IS NOT A DEBATE A THREAD CONCERNING WHETHER OR NOT 2012 WILL HAPPEN. So listening to the sages of the Mayans has nothing to do with this thread. You asked what is the 2012 prophesy based on, and I answered. There is nothing to debate about unless you think my source of understanding the Mayan people and their beliefs concerning 2012 is incorrect.

The Mayan people are still alive. They knew the spanish conquistadors would rip their culture apart. They quickly gave some of their most sacred artifacts to the Hopi to protect - which the Hopi elders today claim they have done so successfully and still have Mayan artifacts that have yet to be revealed.

The Mayan priesthood continued to practice their culture even when catholicism was forced on them. While anthropologists think they know better on Mayan culture - the living Mayans today ask anthropologists to get the story from the actual indigenous people who continued their culture through oral traditions. Yes its true they lost a lot of their knowledge. But they also retained a lot of beliefs and practices that academia did not know about becuase they did so in secret (only revealing recently)

Quote:

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Our days correspond to the planet rotating once, during which the sun makes a full cycle of the sky. Our years correspond to the Earth going round the sun once. You may have noticed this also corresponds exactly to the cycles of the seasons. How on Earth is this 'not related to true reality';

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How many people imagine that a month is a box with a lot of squares :?? Our western concept of time tends to be linear rather than cyclical. And while months were originally named after the moon - most of us have no idea when a full moon is going to occur because months don't accurately follow the cycle of the moon. Really, when we decide to end a month is completely arbitrary and has nothing to do with any cycle observed in nature. You don't find this in the Mayan calenders. If a calender ends on a specific day, it ends because of a cycle observed in nature.

Quote:

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What part of nature does the Mayan cycle correspond to? Don't tell me 'natural cycles'; I asking what specific natural cycle, and some examples of it.

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It's said they have something like 20 calenders. Each one will be based off a different cycle observed in nature. Whether its the human body - the moon - the stars - or growing season. I don't see why I need to give you specifics.

Quote:

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I looked up what modern scholars of the Mayan texts say.

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Well there's your first problem. Find out from the Mayans. Look up Cirilo Perez Oxlaj.

Quote:

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Mark Van Stone, a Mayan scholar, says "there is nothing in the Maya or Aztec or ancient Mesoamerican prophecy to suggest that they prophesied a sudden or major change of any sort in 2012. The notion of a "Great Cycle" coming to an end is completely a modern invention". Sandra Noble, executive director of the Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies in Crystal River, Florida, says "to render Dec. 21, 2012 as a doomsday or moment of cosmic shifting is a complete fabrication and a chance for a lot of people to cash in."

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Well good. It is a fabrication. Cirilo Perez Oxlaj says so himself. That said - it is about a cycle ending and a new cycle beginning. And its extremely significant for the reasons I stated in that first post. As for cosmic shifting - Cirilo does belief something amazing will happen to humanity - but neither he nor the other elder priests state that it happens on December 21st 2012. That date simply marks the official new sun cycle. The actual transition into the new cycle, in terms of its significance, started at least five years ago and can last another five years. You can relate this to the holiday season even though the holidays are still on specific dates. But instead of a span of weeks - we are talking years.

Quote:

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Do you have any historical evidence of these 'wheels of time' and their use?

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I don't understand you. You come here arguing, and what exactly are you arguing about? You're not making any sense to me. Mayan wheels of time is academically known. If you don't know this, then what are you here to argue about?

http://december2012endofworld.com/wp...12-300x284.gif

This is the Mayan long count that ends on December 21 2012. As artistic as it looks, its actually a mathematical artifact. And no I don't have to prove that to you, just google it yourself, there are plenty of educational books that teach how the calender works.

This image illustrates why Mayan calenders are called "wheels"

http://www.viewzone2.com/endtime.wheel.gif

The smaller shorter calenders interlock with the longer lengths of time - making the long count the most complex and complete of the Mayan calenders - a calender that spans apx. 26,000 years. Mind you, ours only spans 365 days.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tommo

What would you guys want in a survival pack for 2012? I'm gonna start selling them on eBay....

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A bowie knife and penicilin

Would you take fake penicillin if you didn't know it was fake?

I'll take a large backpack full of asprin for my 2012 survival pack. That's all i need....MOAR DRUGZ!! because i hate headaches.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tommo

Would you take fake penicillin if you didn't know it was fake?

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I would snort some to make sure it was real

I thought inner sanctum got shut down already?

Here's a video posted by our Tommo about the real history of human beings

2012 The TRUTH You're NOT Being TOLD Part 2 (Full Length 88min) - YouTube

Just give it five minutes and you'll be hooked :cackle:

EDIT: Also here's part one of the hilarity. This one hooks you in 3 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAE0Z...eature=related

ummmmm...... ok....... <<<<<<<< completely fucking confused.

Cause he's australian.

All Australians = me. That was so obscure lol

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Originally Posted by juroara

The smaller shorter calenders interlock with the longer lengths of time - making the long count the most complex and complete of the Mayan calenders - a calender that spans apx. 26,000 years. Mind you, ours only spans 365 days.

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Our calendar only spans 365 days? So you're saying that we have no way of distinguishing between November 19 of this year and November 19 of 37 years from now?

Agreed completely. Our calander is capable of describing time of infinite extent...

The only problem I have with our calendar is that we are in the year 2011. When it should really be 4,600,002,011.

Mayan calendar did not require a leap year like ours does. It was more accurate.

No I think that is because days are shorter and longer, so we need the leap year. We sort of just make up for it all at a certain time to get back to normal. At least I think that's why.
Did the Mayans have it worked out so this is unnecessary? Or did their calendar/time slowly become wrong?

The year is over 5 hours longer than our calendar keeps track. This is why we have leap year. To make matters worse, we actually latch on more days than just one every four, but the others are much more spread out taking several generations.

The Mayan method of time keeping is a natural method, tuned in to the cycles of the earth, moon, sun and galaxy. We transplanted these natural cycles onto an inaccurate recording method, adopting 12 months instead of 13 with a rigid time format that does not adjust to the reality of the bodies they're tracking. Furthermore, the long count could be used to track our position in the galaxy and count time down until the next renewal.

I checked in to ask peeps how they think the Egyptian military's crackdown on protesters fits into the whole 2012 thing?

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Mayan calendar did not require a leap year like ours does. It was more accurate.

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Our calendar is based on

- cycles of the Earth on its axis, and
- cycles of the Earth about the sun,

and is exact.

I suppose the Mayans knew about the precession of the equinoxes? Edit: oh, and they knew about the rotation of galaxies too, awesome. This would be technologically incredible so please give one piece of historical evidence.

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Originally Posted by tommo

No I think that is because days are shorter and longer, so we need the leap year. We sort of just make up for it all at a certain time to get back to normal. At least I think that's why.

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What the... basic astronomy?

A day is how long it takes for the Earth to spin around. The Earth is not constantly accelerating and decelerating, this length of time is always 24 hours. The amount of time we can see the sun through the day changes throughout because of the Earth's tilt.

Any calendar with years and days needs leap years, because the Earth does not spin around a whole number of times when it orbits the Sun once. It's close to 365 ¼, so every four years has 365*4 + 1 days.

Their architexture is designed to take into account the equinox. Honestly if you're trying to deny the mayan's understood the equinox or the movement of constellations you're swimming up a waterfall. Read fucking ANYTHING about ancient ruins in south america. Granted, I don't expect you to be very informed about the subject since you consider the Gregorian Calendar to be exact. Open a book some time.

We do not use the Gregorian calendar for the same reason that we do not use the Julian calendar and we do not just use 365 days per year.

I did not ask about the equinox or the movement of constellations, I asked about the precession of the equinoxes and the rotation of galaxies. I searched a relatively detailed website but it didn't mention anything.

Nearly every ancient temple in the world is designed to react to the equinox. Some refract light in interesting ways, others show new shadows. Either way, these temples were created for the specific purpose of tracking the equinox. I don't know what website you went to but I've personally visited Machu Picchu and Chicen Itza. But it's not just those temples, this mystery repeats itself at The Pyramid of Giza and Teotihuacan.

Furthermore if you draw a straight line between Easter Island, Nazca and Giza you get the exact equator for the Earth's Magnetic Poles. Also, if you use Giza to set the vertical divide, it divides the world's landmasses nearly exactly in half.

It doesn't end there, the builders of the pyramids also already had the metric system. Pi and the Golden Number show up frequently throughout the pyramids if you measure it in meters and the proportions of the pyramid are consistent with pi and the golden number.

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Nearly every ancient temple in the world is designed to react to the equinox. Some refract light in interesting ways, others show new shadows. Either way, these temples were created for the specific purpose of tracking the equinox. I don't know what website you went to but I've personally visited Machu Picchu and Chicen Itza. But it's not just those temples, this mystery repeats itself at The Pyramid of Giza and Teotihuacan.

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I know that many works of ancient architecture are aligned with the equinoxes, it's an extremely common theme. How is it a mystery? The equinoxes are very easy to observe and construct buildings around, and the sun was the central theme to agricultural peoples so it was seen as being worth the attention. It's not related to my question.

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Furthermore if you draw a straight line between Easter Island, Nazca and Giza you get the exact equator for the Earth's Magnetic Poles. Also, if you use Giza to set the vertical divide, it divides the world's landmasses nearly exactly in half.

It doesn't end there, the builders of the pyramids also already had the metric system. Pi and the Golden Number show up frequently throughout the pyramids if you measure it in meters and the proportions of the pyramid are consistent with pi and the golden number.

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Was this supposed to compensate for not answering the galaxy question or something..?

And I'm not sure what you think the metric system is but metres are just as arbitrary as yards. There would also of course be a large number of historical artefacts with metre markings on them, for measuring. And no doubt you can back up your claims about pi and phi with... anything?

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Furthermore if you draw a straight line between Easter Island, Nazca and Giza you get the exact equator for the Earth's Magnetic Poles.

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The poles move every year dude.

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Originally Posted by Xei

I know that many works of ancient architecture are aligned with the equinoxes, it's an extremely common theme. How is it a mystery? The equinoxes are very easy to observe and construct buildings around, and the sun was the central theme to agricultural peoples so it was seen as being worth the attention. It's not related to my question.


Was this supposed to compensate for not answering the galaxy question or something..?

And I'm not sure what you think the metric system is but metres are just as arbitrary as yards. There would also of course be a large number of historical artefacts with metre markings on them, for measuring. And no doubt you can back up your claims about pi and phi with... anything?

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They used constellations to track our movement through the galaxy.

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Originally Posted by Spartiate

The poles move every year dude.

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I don't know the details on this. I know it moves but I don't know how they measured the line between giza, nazca and easter island. But the facts speak for themselves.

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

They used constellations to track our movement through the galaxy.

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Very good, we now seem to be back at my original post were I asked you for one piece of historical evidence.

There's also the precession of the equinoxes thing and additionally the pi-in-metric (?) thing.

The sphinx represents the equator, the connection between leo and aquarius. There's also the goat-eagle hybrid which represent the aries-scorpio line. These two lines form an axis that tracks the suns movement through the galaxy. The mayan long count is the complete circulation of our sun through all constellations. This means that our position is only measurable during the equinox, when the constellation's position can be measured accurately.

What I'm doing right now is a very terrible job at describing points raised in this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQFrNbqNRxI

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

sphinx

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The Mayan Sphinx?

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These two lines form an axis that tracks the suns movement through the galaxy. The mayan long count is the complete circulation of our sun through all constellations.

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Oh Lord... no, when we see the sun moving through different constellations, it is not moving around the galaxy. -_-

You've conflated the completely and utterly different concepts of axial precession and galactic rotation. This is a bit like thinking the sun is literally moving through the clouds in the sky.

I thought it was clear I was making connection between these ancient civilizations. I also thought it was clear that they were tracking the equinox in order to understand galactic revolution free of influence from their own axial rotation. Oh well, I don't expect you to pull your head out of your ass any time soon.

ITT: Omnis Dei proves conclusively that he doesn't know what the hell Xei is talking about when he says "precession of equinoxes".

OD, let me enlighten you:

Over the course of 1 year, the Earth goes about the sun, and the constellations appear to rotate through the full cycle of 12, once. So in December, maybe the sun rises in Picses, and in January it rises in Capricorn, etc. By next December it's back in Picses. The months are wrong, but you get the idea.

Over the course of 26,000 years, the Earth's axis of rotation precesses (like a top) once. This shifts the constellation behind the rising sun (just for reference) on a given day of the year through the full 12 constellations. This is the phase shift of the above 1 year cycle. Every year, the constellation cycle is phase shifted by 1/26,000. So if the December sun rises in Picses now, maybe in 2200 years the December sun now rises in Capricorn.

Along with the phase shift of the constellations, the 26,000 year cycle also shifts the "north star". In 26,000 years from now, the north star will once again be Polaris. In the time of ancient Egypt, it was Vega IIRC.

Finally, the solar system orbits the center of the galaxy over something like 30 million years.

So as you can see, the precession of equinoxes has zero, nothing, nada, zilch, nil, abso-fucking-lutely nothing to do with our position in the galaxy.

Sigh... I don't understand what's unclear here but if you disagree with me I know I can't be that far off track.

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Originally Posted by cmind

ITT: Omnis Dei proves conclusively that he doesn't know what the hell Xei is talking about when he says "precession of equinoxes".

OD, let me enlighten you:

Over the course of 1 year, the Earth goes about the sun, and the constellations appear to rotate through the full cycle of 12, once. So in December, maybe the sun rises in Picses, and in January it rises in Capricorn, etc. By next December it's back in Picses. The months are wrong, but you get the idea.

Over the course of 26,000 years, the Earth's axis of rotation precesses (like a top) once. This shifts the constellation behind the rising sun (just for reference) on a given day of the year through the full 12 constellations. This is the phase shift of the above 1 year cycle. Every year, the constellation cycle is phase shifted by 1/26,000. So if the December sun rises in Picses now, maybe in 2200 years the December sun now rises in Capricorn.

Along with the phase shift of the constellations, the 26,000 year cycle also shifts the "north star". In 26,000 years from now, the north star will once again be Polaris. In the time of ancient Egypt, it was Vega IIRC.

Finally, the solar system orbits the center of the galaxy over something like 30 million years.

So as you can see, the precession of equinoxes has zero, nothing, nada, zilch, nil, abso-fucking-lutely nothing to do with our position in the galaxy.

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Except it's the only means we have of accurately measuring the long count. Read through your post again, it says it all. We use the equinox to measure how far along this 26,000 year road we're currently at. Any other time of the year and you cannot make an accurate count because the position is compromised.

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

They used constellations to track our movement through the galaxy.

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The proper motion of the stars would completely change the look of the constellations before the Sun has made any meaningful distance around the galaxy. I doubt the Mayans had even the vaguest concept of what a galaxy is.

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I don't know the details on this. I know it moves but I don't know how they measured the line between giza, nazca and easter island. But the facts speak for themselves.

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The poles move so much that such a line has no meaning, especially with regards to civilizations that existed thousands of years apart.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...th2001_med.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._locations.png

Well here, look it up yourself Great Circle

You can also just watch the video I posted above

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Well here, look it up yourself Great Circle

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Well that link doesn't mention anything about the magnetic poles. I don't really see the significance of the great circle he mentions either, some of the locations he mentions are pretty obscure and plenty of much more famous monuments don't fit the mold. What about Stonehenge, the Parthenon, any of the numerous Mayan and Aztec complexes, etc.

I'm sure that plenty of patterns can be recognized if you look for them.

Yeah the video mentions the magnetic pole aspect and also gets more specific on why these locations were chosen. I'm beginning to question what it was implying about the magnetic pole and may need to watch again to clarify though because I thought it pinpointed the location in alaska but then claimed it was moving.

The Parthenon, which creation was recorded by history, would not be included in this for obvious reasons. Stonehenge is not mentioned in the video but teotihuacan is. But none of those sites are obscure to me because they're all locations of mysterious origin, prehistoric locations, many of which had structures built that couldn't even be replicated with modern technology.

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Originally Posted by Xei

What the... basic astronomy?

A day is how long it takes for the Earth to spin around. The Earth is not constantly accelerating and decelerating, this length of time is always 24 hours. The amount of time we can see the sun through the day changes throughout because of the Earth's tilt.

Any calendar with years and days needs leap years, because the Earth does not spin around a whole number of times when it orbits the Sun once. It's close to 365 ¼, so every four years has 365*4 + 1 days.

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You would be the worst teacher ever. And thanks for the info. I did know that, I just hadn't bothered to think about it in the slightest since I was 5.

On Omnis Dei's point: Interesting story, the Mayans believe they were given knowledge from sky beings. They also believe these same sky beings then shared the same knowledge in Egypt, India and Cambodia.

The Hindu culture and ancient Egypt both have stories of sky beings descending down to impart knowledge. The most famous of these stories are the Hindu gods and their great flying vessels as large as cities - waging battles in the skies.

And like the Mayans the Hindu culture also has a belief of world ages - and interestingly use the term maya to denote the illusionary nature of reality.

"In the “Brahma-Vaivarta Purana”, Lord Krishna tells Ganga Devi that a Golden Age will come in the Kali Yuga - one of the four stages of development that the world goes through as part of the cycle of eras, as described in Hindu scriptures. Lord Krishna predicted that this Golden Age will start 5,000 years after the beginning of the Kali Yuga, and will last for 10,000 years.
Mayan Calendar Matches Hindu Calendar

It is interesting that this prediction of the emergence of a new world is prophesied to appear about the same time that the Mayans predicted it to come! The Mayan calendar began with the Fifth Great Cycle in 3114 BC and will end on 21 December 2012 AD. The Hindu Kali Yuga calendar began on 18 February 3102 B.C. There is only a difference of 12 years between the Hindu's beginning of the Kali Yuga and the Mayan's beginning of the Fifth Great Cycle."

I think because there are similarities between the two calenders that people liberally apply the belief of golden age to the Mayan calender - versus the alternate ending of doomsday

I think these cultures inherited the ruins from the previous incarnation of human civilization, or perhaps the one before that. Maybe there's aliens too, but for me it's far easier to imagine, with how many great changes the earth has been through, that we managed to obtain this advanced technology before but got wiped the F out, but before we did we built these granite structures in order to preserve some knowledge. Think about it, if we got wiped out now what would survive us? The pyramids.

Saw it in a movie once.

One year till the big day, guys.

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Originally Posted by cmind

One year till the big day, guys.

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I'm excited. If nothing else, I just want to see how hysterical some of the population gets, leading up to it. :popcorn:

I bet the global suicide rate will skyrocket as we get nearer the time.

I saw something on CNBC about people preparing, one guy said we're all in a virtual reality game that gets turned off at 11:11:11 on 12/21/2012 and that he has to jump off some particular cliff in new mexico to save the world.

I heard about some guy doing the same thing. He said a portal is going to open below the cliff. I'm not sure why he wants to jump off the cliff to get in to it though lol

You'd think rule one of occult and conspiracy research is don't buy into any idea where if you're wrong, you die.

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Originally Posted by tommo

I heard about some guy doing the same thing. He said a portal is going to open below the cliff. I'm not sure why he wants to jump off the cliff to get in to it though lol

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He lives in an impoverished country and he needs to reach 88 miles per hour for it to work.

I know that some sort of change is happening. Personally, I find myself agreeing with Reece Jones' (Youtube) version of the 2012 shift. Anyway, these changes, I've been going through them first hand, as have the people around me. For example, I never would have dreamed that I would become a vegan, and yet here I am. It was a decision that my mother and I made about three months ago after becoming more aware of animals and people. I feel as if I learn something insanely important each day, and from what I learn, I feel as if I am a different person each day. It's pretty cool, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Xei

He lives in an impoverished country and he needs to reach 88 miles per hour for it to work.

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Won't the ground still be there in 1885? So much for thinking 4th-dimensionally.

> 2012
> Not thinking with portals

I need to think of something super trolly to do to all the people in this forum and the world when nothing fucking happens.

Taking suggestions


I know what will be infuriating as all hell is when nothing happens and people start tripping out over the fact that "shit happens" during a whole year, and decide that this proves their point that something changed during 2012. Well no shit. Of course everything will change this year, that's how time works.