The 2012 'Paradigm Shift.' Is it in its beginning stages?

**Oneironaut Zero** · 02-17-2011 06:53 PM

Ok. First of all, it needs to be said that this thread is a for a serious discussion of the facts about things that are going on in the world right now. This is not a place for believers to say "See, I told you! It's happening! 2012 is coming and will affect us all!!" just as it is not a place for disbelievers to come in with their "Uh-oh. Tin foil hat alert! Magic does not exist, therefore this is invalid!" rhetoric. To put it simply; if you cannot discuss this subject maturely and/or without being a complete douche-bag about it (and I know that some people can't), then you don't deserve to take part in this conversation, and you will be 'asked' to leave it.

With that out of the way, let's get down to it.

What are some of the theories about 2012? How has it been interpreted over the years. Some have said it's the end of the world. Some say it is a global paradigm shift; a transition into enlightenment; a period of 'awakening' into global consciousness. Some say it will be the second coming of Christ.' Are there any others that I'm missing?

Personally, I have never been one to believe in any of this - specifically the parts about the 'end of the world,' and the 'second coming of Christ. I have always been interested in the aspect of a paradigm shift, but have been completely skeptical about it. Now, though, my skepticism of the latter is waning. It's not that I believe current events are actually linked to the 'prophecy' - it could be pure coincidence, of course - but the timing and implications of all the unrest in the Middle East is something that can't easily be ignored. These events are quite significant, and fall a little above the realm of 'well, crazy stuff happens all the time' (IMHO). At the very least, they deserve some unbiased, open-minded analysis. What fascinates me the most is how easily these events can be interpreted to fit both of the latter theories I mentioned above:

Global Paradigm Shift / Awareness:
More and more people / cultures are beginning to stand up for their human rights, and the fever is spreading like wildfire. Thanks to technology, one uprising is leading to many, and people are beginning to get a feeling of their own self-worth, whom have never had it before. The sullen, uninspired lifestyle of living under dictatorial rule seems to be growing less and less tolerable, around the few remaining corners of the world where it still exists. There is a bit of an 'awakening,' in that people are becoming more aware of their power to change their lives and social situations.

Second Coming of Christ / Rapture:
Before I get too far into this, let me say that I am not a religious person. At all. I figure the Bible to be a book of proposed lifestyle guidelines, by way of metaphor, and not a literal translation of things that will physically come to pass (though there have been some strange 'coincidences,' over the years). Now, taking that into consideration: What is Christ? What is the word of Christ? What are Christ's principles? As I have come to believe, it is about love. It is about interacting socially with each other and displaying a sense of brotherhood to all, regardless of who they are or where they are. It is about empathy. About separating the lines between "you and me;" "us and them." Within these flames of revolution, we are seeing much of this. We are seeing people from all over the world showing a profound outpouring of affection and admiration for these people whom are trying to win their freedom. People are starting to wake up to the fact that, just because there are dictators in certain corners of the world, not all of the people of those regions share the same paradigms as those dictators. It is an increase in Christ's philosophy, as opposed to the evils of oppression and dictatorial rule.

I think all of this is very interesting. The timing, as I said, is fascinating - that it should happen now - after all of this time, and how it looks to be a domino effect that doesn't seem to be showing any signs of containing itself, as yet. Another thing I find interesting is that this is all starting / happening in the epicenter of the human species. The 'Cradle of Mankind,' as some would call it.

For such wild, metaphysical predictions to coincide so greatly with actual events is rare, to say the least, and I can't help but to be intrigued by it. So I just wanted to start some discussion on it. Does anyone have anything to add? Whether you are a true believer or a skeptic (as I am), contribute what you will. However - and I will say this again - check your arrogance at the door. This thread is for tempered discussion, not dissent, egoism nor (if possible) ignorance.

Aaannnd GO!

**HeavySleeper** · 02-17-2011 08:37 PM

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, or a spiritualist, or religious, or anything like that. But I do enjoy discussing or reading about things like prophecies, mysterious cultures and all the other stuff that seems to be apart of the whole 2012 conspiracy thing. Although I don't really believe any of it, it interests me nonetheless.

These protests taking place all over the Middle East are getting a lot of attention, and with good reason. Countries that once accepted the rule of tyrannical dictators are suddenly rebelling and crying out for freedom. It's like the people have lost their fear. As far as I know, two countries, Tunisia and Egypt, have already brought down their governments. And the oppressed people of surrounding countries have been inspired by this. They're getting more and more rebellious against their own corrupt governments and are also taking to the streets in protest. The people of these countries want democracy and I hope they get it. Democracy isn't perfect. There is no perfect way to run a society. But one thing is for sure, a democracy is a hell of a lot better than a dictatorship.

It's all happening incredibly fast. In the past, evil empires, dictatorships and authoritarian governments took years, decades, even centuries to bring down. But now, it's all happening in a matter of weeks! With the speed and power of this intense spread, could we actually see the toppling of all the world's dictatorships within our lifetime? I've heard a great many 2012 conspiracy theorists say we are living in a time of extreme change. By some crazy coincidence, the world seems to be dramatically changing. I mean, okay, "time of extreme change" is quite vague and could mean anything really, but the timing appears to be perfect.

Now, I still don't believe any of the conspiracy theories and I'm not going to be sitting in a homemade bunker wearing a tinfoil hat any time soon. But whether it fits in with ancient prophecy or not, there is a lot of amazing stuff going on in the world right now and we should be paying attention. History is unfolding before our eyes.

**Xei** · 02-17-2011 08:44 PM

The world is always changing. Perhaps it is changing more than average at the moment (although to be honest I can easily name events as big as this or bigger within pretty much any historical decade), but for any rational person the year 2012 in itself has nothing to do with anything and is not worth discussing.

**Oneironaut Zero** · 02-17-2011 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by Xei

but for any rational person the year 2012 in itself has nothing to do with anything and is not worth discussing.

Couldn't resist, could you? I knew it wouldn't take long

Thanks for your "contribution," Xei.
(And for your subtle insult to my rationality. By the way, for all other posters, the above quote is a perfect example of how not to respond to this topic.)

Anybody else?

**Xei** · 02-17-2011 09:07 PM

I don't get it, what is your actual point?

**Oneironaut Zero** · 02-17-2011 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by Xei

I don't get it, what is your actual point?

As to what? The thread? There is no 'point,' as I'm not making a statement.

The purpose of the thread is to compare the many facets of the 2012 theory(ies) to current events, to see how well they fit. Whether or not you (or anyone else) believes in the theories is irrelevant. And trying direct appeals to ridicule by throwing out statements like the one I quoted above (on either side) is, frankly, beneath anyone who chooses to discuss this subject open-mindedly.

**Xei** · 02-17-2011 09:35 PM

I'm just asking what's important about the year 2012 in itself, it's a perfectly reasonable question. As in, why 2012 and not some other time period?

**Spartiate** · 02-17-2011 09:47 PM

I don't think current events are that significant in the grand scheme of things. Basically a few dictators in relatively minor countries got ousted and a few other countries rumbled a bit. This is nothing compared to the events leading up to the dissolution of the Eastern Block and the Soviet Union in the late 80s, or the two world wars several decades earlier. If anything events seem to have gotten less significant with time.

**Xei** · 02-17-2011 09:58 PM

Yes, I was thinking of similar things. In more recent times there has been the economic collapse, the 9/11 attacks, and the advent of the computer age and the creation of the internet.

**Oneironaut Zero** · 02-17-2011 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by Xei

I'm just asking what's important about the year 2012 in itself, it's a perfectly reasonable question. As in, why 2012 and not some other time period?

Because of the whole "prophecy," theory, belief thing surrounding 2012, and its scale - as was outlined in the OP. I'm pretty sure you understand. "Why 2012," as I went over specific events that seem to go along with the 'prophecy' and its many interpretations. I'm not talking general "oh, weird things happen all the time," I'm talking about events that can be interpreted as closely related to the theories themselves. Don't know how much clearer I can be than that.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

I don't think current events are that significant in the grand scheme of things. Basically a few dictators in relatively minor countries got ousted and a few other countries rumbled a bit. This is nothing compared to the events leading up to the dissolution of the Eastern Block and the Soviet Union in the late 80s, or the two world wars several decades earlier. If anything events seem to have gotten less significant with time.

Good point, Spart. I do not know much about the period surrounding the dissolution of the Eastern Block and the Soviet Union - nor, admittedly, much about the specific idiologies that led up to the wars. I will look into them more, as well as how those time periods may or may not be more or less closely related to the whole 2012 than the period we are in now..

Originally Posted by Xei

Yes, I was thinking of similar things. In more recent times there has been the economic collapse, the 9/11 attacks, and the advent of the computer age and the creation of the internet.

Personally, I don't think either of those events, alone, hold as many connections to the theory as what is going on right now.

**Xei** · 02-17-2011 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

[/INDENT]Because of the whole "prophecy," theory, belief thing surrounding 2012, and its scale - as was outlined in the OP. I'm pretty sure you understand. "Why 2012," as I went over specific events that seem to go along with the 'prophecy' and its many interpretations. I'm not talking general "oh, weird things happen all the time," I'm talking about events that can be interpreted as closely related to the theories themselves. Don't know how much clearer I can be than that.

But it's 2011?

Seriously, what I'm saying is that there is no reason to believe the changes should be pinned down to 21/12/12 or whatever it is; I mean, even the historical 'Mayans thought there would be a cosmic shift' thing is not actually based on fact. I'm saying you can hypothesise on some kind of trend or shift based on current events if you want but the 2012 date is just an assertion, why are you lending credence to it?

Personally, I don't think either of those events, alone, hold as many connections to the theory as what is going on right now.

You would rate this event as more important than the creation of the internet? The internet has instantaneously linked all humans on Earth, made information insuppressible, and the Egypt protests were basically a facet of that larger event.

**HeavySleeper** · 02-17-2011 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by Spartiate

I don't think current events are that significant in the grand scheme of things. Basically a few dictators in relatively minor countries got ousted and a few other countries rumbled a bit. This is nothing compared to the events leading up to the dissolution of the Eastern Block and the Soviet Union in the late 80s, or the two world wars several decades earlier. If anything events seem to have gotten less significant with time.

I see what you mean. Big events like WW1, WW2, the fall of the Soviet Union, etc make current events look insignificant. But I think what is happening in the Middle East is more than just a few countries rumbling. The people of these countries are gathering in large numbers and calling for a major change in how they are treated and how their countries are run. And with the world watching and encouraging the protesters, they could all get what they want. Imagine if all of those countries in the Middle East become democracies by the end of all this and all of those people finally have a say in what happens in their part of the world. How big an impact will that have?

Also, this stuff happening in the Middle East isn't the only interesting thing going on. For example, information released by Wikileaks has been stirring things up a bit. They've shown us some tightly guarded secrets that would have remained hidden from the public, and they plan to show us a lot more in the near future. It's already angered a lot of powerful people who want to see Julian Assange jailed or even executed.

I'm not saying anything major will happen in the year 2012, because honestly I don't really think it will. But I would say things that are going on right now aren't exactly boring. I'm sure it's giving all of the conspiracy theorists out there something to be excited about.

**Oneironaut Zero** · 02-17-2011 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by Xei

But it's 2011?

I know what year it is. I also understand that, the domino effect that seems to be going on is in its beginning stages. It's not over and done with. Many of the revolutions haven't even happened, they are - as now - simply protests. The fact that it's only 2011 now is, again, irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Xei

Seriously, what I'm saying is that there is no reason to believe the changes should be pinned down to 21/12/12 or whatever it is; I mean, even the historical 'Mayans thought there would be a cosmic shift' thing is not actually based on fact. I'm saying you can hypothesise on some kind of trend or shift based on current events if you want but the 2012 date is just an assertion, why are you lending credence to it?

I'm not "lending credence" to it, Xei. Not anywhere in this thread have I "lent credence" to it. I am entertaining it, in light of how closely the events can be attributed to the most widespread interpretations of the theory. I know the theory is not based on fact. I understand that it's just an assertion. But it is a popular one, and I'm humoring it. Again, how much clearer can I make myself?

Originally Posted by Xei

You would rate this event as more important

I'm going to stop you right there, and say "NO!"
Again, please pay attention to what I'm saying. I have not said that anything presented in the thread is more "important" than anything else. I said that - given the factors - it can be most closely related to the aspects of the theory; the religious/spiritual base of the areas in conflict, the moral implications of the feuds, etc. etc. (which have much less to do with the Internet, if at all). There is no one here that said anything about importance or trying to imply the theories are true, or whatever else it is you are (quite strangely) trying to negate.

I am simply trying to compare (and/or contrast) the interpretations of the popular notions of the whole 2012 "theory" with what is going on today. Is anybody else having that much trouble understanding this?

**Xei** · 02-17-2011 10:51 PM

You said you were intrigued by the coincidence and asked if anybody had anything to add. Mine and Spart's reply has been that from a more comprehensive or objective historical standpoint, this event isn't particularly large. If that isn't a valid contribution then I'm totally clueless as to what you wanted to hear.

**Oneironaut Zero** · 02-17-2011 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by Xei

You said you were intrigued by the coincidence and asked if anybody had anything to add. Mine and Spart's reply has been that from a more comprehensive or objective historical standpoint, this event isn't particularly large. If that isn't a valid contribution then I'm totally clueless as to what you wanted to hear.

Ay, Dios Mio, Xei. Notice the difference in the way I responded to Spart's input. I more than welcome objectivity that counters the 2012 hype. But I believe Spart's contribution was much more relevant - and significant. (He also did it without stooping to biased dissent and putting words in my mouth, implying that he actually understood the OP.) As I said, I wasn't sure how closely the specifics of his contribution (the dissolution of the S.U. and the World Wars) can be related to the 2012-type speculations, as opposed to what is going on, and it would warrant some looking into. I think that they are potentially more closely related than those you offered because of the sheer atrocity of them (specifically the wars), and the spiritual/moral aspects of them (which are closely related to two of the 3 examples of the theory interpretations I gave in the OP). Yours, well, didn't.

I also stated that the ripple effect that started with the Tunisian and Egyptian uprisings haven't stopped yet, so the fact that it isn't "particularly large" - which is quite arbitrary - remains to be seen. I am simply starting the discussion in the early stages of a chain of events which could carry on for years.

....And I feel like I'm repeating myself more and more.

[Edit]
But, if nothing else; If the discussion I'm trying to provoke is really that hard to understand, know that I understand your general position on the subject. You don't think there is any truth to the theory whatsoever, and you don't think any of the current events are more significant than those in the past. I get it. (Though you aren't really comparing different aspects of the theory, in its most popular interpretations, with the different implicit aspects of what's going on today, in their totality - as I said; the religious aspects, the paradigm shift, the morality issues. All of these fit the many interpretations, and they are all happening simultaneously. Therefore, the current events more concisely fit the interpretations than even the most significant events of the past, on their own.)

**saltyseedog** · 02-18-2011 03:32 AM

omg I like that picture!!!! Sorry if I'm to imature....

Cool thread though getting all logical and shit about it

**Xei** · 02-18-2011 05:02 PM

Except in my very first post I actually made the exact same point as Spart and you ignored it.

And to be honest if you think that my latter suggestions were less potent then Spart's (and I only made them because Spart had already delineated the obvious older ones) then that's your personal opinion. So what, you think I'm wrong; this doesn't mean I'm trying to derail the thread or I'm attacking you (which you've said about five times now and know better). When I tried to discuss it you point blank refused to talk to me and said it wasn't relevant to the thread... and now you're saying it is exactly what is relevant to the thread. I really have no idea what is going on here.

**nina** · 02-18-2011 05:22 PM

Can we stop for a moment and first...discuss all of the various reasons as to why people have prophetized about the year 2012? I think this would take care of the point Xei was trying to make, concerning why the year 2012, and more specifically the day...December 21st 2012 should hold any significance. Can we please put together an accurate collection of these theories and prophesies? This means, research the topic thoroughly and provide enough support to show us that what you are saying is credible.

For example, some things that I have heard/read about, that I would like to do research on regarding 2012, but considering I am only one person and I have limited free time these days I'm going to ask all of you to help present research and data on these matters...

- End of the Mayan Calender (but I've also read reports that our interpretation of the calender is inaccurate? further research is necessary)

- Earth having a pole shift, or aligning with planets, or the center of our galaxy, or moving from one plane and shifting its spin, wobble, etc. etc., etc. ...someone research that please and give us some data!

- Something about the I-ching is set up in a way as to predict the end of something in 2012...somebody research that.

- Edgar Cayce, the sleeping psychic...did he make prophesies about 2012? What about Nostradamus, or any other famous seer or psychic...somebody research that.

- Are natural disasters really increasing at an alarming rate as has been suggested? Earthquakes, hurricanes etc. etc. This is not specific to 2012 but gives credibility to the "prophecy" if true, so it should be researched as well, along with Natural Die Offs of large animal populations

- Is there anything about 2012 in the Bible? or any other religious text? (not that the bible has ever prophesied anything worthwhile)

- I can't remember any of the other prophecies, so I ask you all to please add any that I may have left out...and present us with some good solid facts! Let's get to the bottom of this once and for all.

**Oneironaut Zero** · 02-18-2011 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Xei

Except in my very first post I actually made the exact same point as Spart and you ignored it.

Actually, I didn't ignore it. I didn't respond to it (and I apologize for that), because I was so disappointed by the inadvertent attack on my rationality that followed. My disappointment was mostly due to the fact that - while I was writing up the OP - I figured that, were you to be one of the first to respond, you would be one of those that could not approach the subject without making the type of comment that you did. To be more specific, your "the world is always changing / I can think of bigger historical events than this" was so vague (and pretty obvious) that it was overshadowed by your insult.

Originally Posted by Xei

And to be honest if you think that my latter suggestions were less potent then Spart's (and I only made them because Spart had already delineated the obvious older ones) then that's your personal opinion.

Which I rightly acknowledged, by beginning my response with "I believe..."

Originally Posted by Xei

So what, you think I'm wrong; this doesn't mean I'm trying to derail the thread or I'm attacking you (which you've said about five times now and know better).

Let me give this a little context:

I take a moderate stance on many issues: Paranormality, Metaphysics, Religion, Philosophy, etc. I try to see things from all points of view. I try to see things that the faithful do not see, for lack of logic and critical thinking; I try to see things that the strictly scientific cannot see, for lack of outside-the-box perspective. I try to see things that the strictly 'logical' might not see, for the same reasons. I have been doing this for quite a long time. A problem I very often come across is that those who deem themselves the 'most logical,' are often the least capable of stating their position on such outlandish topics such as this, without being (pardon the expression) douche-bags. I'm tired of it. It adds nothing to the discussion, and it's even more reprehensible when they do it when stating an opinion, rather than a cold, hard fact; not that it's necessary, in that case, either.

Seriously, it's like an illness, and it's an ugly one. I give just as much blame to a theist who says non-believers are blind, arrogant fools who can't see that God obviously exists, as I do to an atheist who says that believers are illogical idiots, who are too stupid to see that there is obviously no God. They are two sides of the same coin, and no-matter how faithful or logical each person thinks they are, they are viciously defending their opinions through ad hominem attacks. It is how FOXNews conducts viewer opinion (i.e.; Bill O'Reilly's Pinheads and Patriots segments), and it has no place in mature, civilized, intelligent discussion. Ironically, it is usually the "intellects" that are most guilty of this. Consider the fact that I anticipated it, in my OP.

So, when you say that "but for any rational person the year 2012 in itself has nothing to do with anything and is not worth discussing," you are blatantly (even if subconsciously) insulting my rationality, seeing as how I am the one who brought up the discussion.

Copy?

Originally Posted by Xei

When I tried to discuss it you point blank refused to talk to me and said it wasn't relevant to the thread... and now you're saying it is exactly what is relevant to the thread.

I didn't refuse to talk to you. The point (in my opinion) was insignificant, in the way that you presented it. Spart actually gave examples (and made his point without the previously explained insult in tow).

And once again (and even now), I have sufficiently explained the difference between Spart's examples and yours. I believe that those times of extreme violence - on such a grand scale - that he mentioned are more analogous to the 'apocalyptic' interpretations of the theory. Those examples were more about the Good/Evil base of the more fringe/religious interpretations of the theory - while simultaneously touching on the apocalyptic interpretations, etc.

Yes, the 9/11 attacks were a time of great tragedy, but it doesn't necessarily fit the 'world on fire' or 'widespread revolution/destruction/violence' type of interpretations. The invention of the Internet, while significant, doesn't really represent the 'paradigm shift,' as I - and many others - interpret it. There has always been a thirst for knowledge. The Internet simply expedited how easily attainable that knowledge is. In contrast, these current events are more about the worth of the people. Regions that have been oppressed and beaten down by "Evil" (tyranny, heavy-handed dictatorship) are beginning to find a sense of self-worth, and speak together with an empowering realization of unity and self-respect ("Good"). Were this the only relevant factor (remember: relevance and importance/potency are not synonymous) then I wouldn't pay so much attention to it, but it's not. It's that all of the factors of the current events fit so squarely with all of the interpretations (not perfectly, but enough to garner attention from anyone who is interested in the whole 2012 thing) that I find it more relevant than any one of the afore-mentioned examples.

You didn't say "exactly" what Spart said. You said something that - while in the same ballpark - was (at first) much less specific and (later) not quite as relevant (in my opinion) to the theory(s) itself. I have explained why, as best I could. If you don't agree, then I can only respect your opinion and hope that we can get back on track.

[Edit]
Thank you very much, Nina! This is exactly what I was looking to accomplish. Will be looking into some of these, myself.

And I'm sure there are many more people on DV who have actually followed the whole 2012 thing, so feel free to add your input!

**HeavySleeper** · 02-18-2011 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by Aquanina

- I can't remember any of the other prophecies, so I ask you all to please add any that I may have left out...and present us with some good solid facts! Let's get to the bottom of this once and for all.

I've heard of a few of the theories you mentioned, but haven't done much research on them. I don't know if I'll be able to find out much about any of them, but I'll probably give it a try.

I'm going to add something interesting that I read a bit about. When it comes to the whole 2012 thing, I don't think this theory is mentioned much. But I find it funny how the timing seems to be lined up nicely with all of the 2012 stuff. It's called the "Malachy Prophecy" or "Prophecy of the Popes". In 1139, an archbishop from Armagh, in Ireland was summoned to Rome by the Pope. When he arrived in the Vatican, he apparently fell to the floor and had a vision of the Popes who would rule the Catholic Church from then on. He quickly wrote down a numbered list of Latin phrases describing each Pope. There are 112 phrases in total.

The last Pope on the list is thought to have been added later, possibly by someone else. He is the only one who is named and is given a more detailed description than the rest. The name is Petrus Romanus (or Peter the Roman) and is described as being the last Pope to rule over the church because Rome will be destroyed.

Malachy was canonised and is now a saint. Apparently the phrases describing the Popes are quite accurate, but honestly, I think they're so vague that they could fit into anything. It's just the timing that amuses me. Our current Pope is the 111th since the prophecy was made and should he die before the year 2012, the new Pope will make a perfectly timed arrival.

Here's a link to the Wikipedia page: Prophecy of the Popes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't think I'd be able to find a better link, but if it interests anyone, they can look more into it themselves. Again, I don't really believe it, but it's a funny coincidence.

**Spartiate** · 02-18-2011 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by Aquanina

Can we stop for a moment and first...discuss all of the various reasons as to why people have prophetized about the year 2012? I think this would take care of the point Xei was trying to make, concerning why the year 2012, and more specifically the day...December 21st 2012 should hold any significance. Can we please put together an accurate collection of these theories and prophesies? This means, research the topic thoroughly and provide enough support to show us that what you are saying is credible.

For example, some things that I have heard/read about, that I would like to do research on regarding 2012, but considering I am only one person and I have limited free time these days I'm going to ask all of you to help present research and data on these matters...

- End of the Mayan Calender (but I've also read reports that our interpretation of the calender is inaccurate? further research is necessary)

- Earth having a pole shift, or aligning with planets, or the center of our galaxy, or moving from one plane and shifting its spin, wobble, etc. etc., etc. ...someone research that please and give us some data!

- Something about the I-ching is set up in a way as to predict the end of something in 2012...somebody research that.

- Edgar Cayce, the sleeping psychic...did he make prophesies about 2012? What about Nostradamus, or any other famous seer or psychic...somebody research that.

- Are natural disasters really increasing at an alarming rate as has been suggested? Earthquakes, hurricanes etc. etc. This is not specific to 2012 but gives credibility to the "prophecy" if true, so it should be researched as well, along with Natural Die Offs of large animal populations

- Is there anything about 2012 in the Bible? or any other religious text? (not that the bible has ever prophesied anything worthwhile)

- I can't remember any of the other prophecies, so I ask you all to please add any that I may have left out...and present us with some good solid facts! Let's get to the bottom of this once and for all.

The only 100% certain thing that will happen on the 21st of December 2012 is that the Mayan calendar will complete the current "b'ak'tun", a period of 144,000 days. This would be the end of the 13th one since the mythical Mayan creation date.

I think this all started because of an old book that collects various elements of Mayan mythology, and it says that the gods previously created a failed world which ended at the start of the 14th b'ak'tun, so some people think it'll happen again I guess?

Anything else, especially regarding astronomy or natural events, is just speculation or pseudoscience.

**Oneironaut Zero** · 02-18-2011 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by Spartiate

The only 100% certain thing that will happen on the 21st of December 2012 is that the Mayan calendar will complete the current "b'ak'tun", a period of 144,000 days. This would be the end of the 13th one since the mythical Mayan creation date.

I think this all started because of an old book that collects various elements of Mayan mythology, and it says that the gods previously created a failed world which ended at the start of the 14th b'ak'tun, so some people think it'll happen again I guess?

Anything else, especially regarding astronomy or natural events, is just speculation or pseudoscience.

Spart, I don't think there is much debate on this (and we don't have to keep repeating it).

We are simply entertaining the idea. Can we please get off of the "it's just speculation / it's not gonna happen" train for a little while? Seriously. Don't people know how to suspend their disbelief anymore? I am simply entertaining the theory by looking at the ins-and-outs of it. We know it's all speculation. We know it's all based on myth. We know it's likely not to amount to anything. We know it's all about (mis)interpretation. It's been said. It's been re-said, and it's been regurgitated.

For the love of God, save it!
[Edit]
InB4 "God Doesn't Exist!"

**DrunkenArse** · 02-18-2011 08:55 PM

God doesn't exist

EDIT:

Dammit! O beat me too it!

**Spartiate** · 02-18-2011 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Spart, I don't think there is much debate on this (and we don't have to keep repeating it).

We are simply entertaining the idea. Can we please get off of the "it's just speculation / it's not gonna happen" train for a little while? Seriously. Don't people know how to suspend their disbelief anymore? I am simply entertaining the theory by looking at the ins-and-outs of it. We know it's all speculation. We know it's all based on myth. We know it's likely not to amount to anything. We know it's all about (mis)interpretation. It's been said. It's been re-said, and it's been regurgitated.

For the love of God, save it!
[Edit]
InB4 "God Doesn't Exist!"

Jeez, sorry for popping your bubble

. Nina asked for an accurate list of what exactly is going to happen and that's what I gave her...

I mean you can look at all the "predictions" for entertainment purposes I guess, but you really have to look at their background before lending them any credence at all. Most of them aren't even theories, they're just ideas that some random person thought up and spread around. For instance the "pole shift" thing, how can you predict that, and especially pin it down to a single date (or year), it's something that happens over centuries.

Another popular 2012 scenario is that an unknown planet called "Nibiru" will collide with Earth. Who thought of this? A woman who says aliens from the Zeta Reticuli star system implanted a device in her brain to communicate with her. Her first prediction for the event was 2003 but then she jumped on board the 2012 train...

Anybody could invent a semi-plausible theory for 2012, that's why I feel it's kind of pointless to seriously discuss any. Maybe the star Betelgeuse will go supernova, causing a gamma ray burst that will destroy Earth's atmosphere, but create a rift in hyperspace so that our life-forces will shift dimensions and ascend to a new reality.

^ ©Spart

**Oneironaut Zero** · 02-18-2011 10:03 PM

Again, you are stating the obvious.

And, yet, the discussion will continue.

And since you bring up Nibiru, I'll look into that as well, as to how it relates to what's actually going on, currently. The point that you and Xei are failing to grasp is that I Don't care about the insubstantiality of the claims. I am entertaining the idea, and digging into the most popular claims. I don't care if the most popular claims were started by some half-baked, pot-smoking meth-head in Kansas. If it is something that a large number of people actually believe, it is fair game to discuss whether or not it is actually coming to pass, at this time, based on current events.

This, Spartiate, is a classic case of bias getting in the way of understanding. I have made myself very, very clear, and yet the pseudo-skeptics (and I use this term because this refusal to understand the point goes far beyond just being skeptical of the theory) are acting like I'm speaking in tongues.

I have always regarded both you an Xei as intelligent guys, and I'm not disputing the sentiment, but I am growing exceedingly disappointed in you both.

(Perhaps you don't understand that, by looking at the theories in detail, and comparing/contrasting the actual events - not the origins of the theories - I am not only 'lending them credence,' but also 'falsifying them.' I am walking an objective line, straight down the middle. Does this make you feel better? Can we get back on track, now?)