Thread: Xanous' Workbook

So to be thorough, I had a failure this morning. I did a full 30min WBTB but only took 50MG caff and I didn't take Melatonin at the first of night. I think 100MG is better for me and I should use Melatonin at beginning if I want to WBTB Caff. I didn't take the Melatonin at the beginning because I seem to have more random DILDs pre WBTB when I don't.

I had a nagging feeling I was lucid this pre WBTB but could only recall a non-lucid. I hate it when that happens. Anyway, no lucid with 50MG but I am surprised that I didn't have had one just doing WBTB and Meditation. I was really tired though and really didn't do a very good job with SSILD or any tech. There was a number of disturbances during this last part of sleep. The cats fighting, dogs barking, baby waking, ect.

I had some awesome non lucid dreams though. In one of them, I phased through glass and part of me recognized this as dream control but I was too wrapped up in the emotion of the dream to care. (Self sacrifice is such a noble thing. ) I remember telling my self "the glass is not there." and I stepped right through. I thought, "Hmm just like my last lucid." Non-lucid dream control is a funny thing.

Great job collecting these observations. This record keeping is so valuable for keeping straight what works for you.

What difference does the melatonin make for you? I'd expect REM suppression and then a big rebound after your WBTB. Is the dreaming just more intense? Do you find that there are other effects for you beyond that?

I love how you referenced you last lucid in your non-lucid dream when you phased. You were definitely close!

What difference does the melatonin make for you? I'd expect REM suppression and then a big rebound after your WBTB. Is the dreaming just more intense? Do you find that there are other effects for you beyond that?

I'm not sure. It didn't seem to matter last night But the thought was REM suppression at first and then more vivid dreams later. Maybe it doesn't matter in the case of lucidity. I may just save the melatonin for when I really need it.

Originally Posted by Xanous

I'm not sure. It didn't seem to matter last night But the thought was REM suppression at first and then more vivid dreams later. Maybe it doesn't matter in the case of lucidity. I may just save the melatonin for when I really need it.

It'd be interesting to see how things go with or without the pre-bed melatonin, but your current approach sounds really solid. The REM suppression effect ought to help make sure you get enough deep sleep and give you that nice REM rebound when you will be needing it.

When you say that it didn't matter last night, do you mean you didn't really get much of a boost in dream vividness from the pre-bed melatonin? I've only taken melatonin in small doses myself, so I haven't studied in depth how readily tolerance builds up. A cursory search didn't reveal anything alarming, though.

The thing I want to get rid of is my use of a small dose of melatonin (0.75-1.5mg) to get back to sleep after WBTB caffeine or WBTB galantamine. It just seems like I should find a way to avoid taking an REM suppressant during my WBTB, even in these small doses. Hopefully I can find a good way to do that. On my next trial with green tea, I'm going to try to go with a low enough amount that I don't have trouble falling asleep.

BTW, do you drink your caffeine at the beginning of your WBTB or do you chug it right before leaping back into bed and trying to fall asleep?

When you say that it didn't matter last night, do you mean you didn't really get much of a boost in dream vividness from the pre-bed melatonin?

Yes. Low recall is by biggest issue. And my WBTB ritual did not produce a lucid. Other then faithfully putting me into a deep sleep, melatonin seems to be hit and miss as far as affecting my dreams. But I'm just not sure if its the melatonin or other things. I have been having some weirdness which I will explain in a bit.

The thing I want to get rid of is my use of a small dose of melatonin (0.75-1.5mg) to get back to sleep after WBTB caffeine or WBTB galantamine. It just seems like I should find a way to avoid taking an REM suppressant during my WBTB, even in these small doses. Hopefully I can find a good way to do that. On my next trial with green tea, I'm going to try to go with a low enough amount that I don't have trouble falling asleep.

Yeah I think if you can not use melatonin it would be better. But then again it might not matter. There's so many factors it's hard to pinpoint anything... at least for me.

BTW, do you drink your caffeine at the beginning of your WBTB or do you chug it right before leaping back into bed and trying to fall asleep?

I take the caffeine pill or drink when I am heading back to bed. Usually, when it works right, I will have a lucid 40-60 min later.

So I just had an OBE style lucid at the first of the night again. This time is was way different. I didn't enter the peaceful white void this time. It was more of a normal WILD for me but very nightmarish.

I think it was about 8:00PM when I fell asleep on the recliner. I had been sleepy all day for some unknown reason and I was just done. I up about 9:00. My wife already had the baby tucked into bed and we hit the sack ourselves. I had some trouble going back to sleep. Cats kept making noise and my son woke up briefly. The last time I looked at the clock it was about 9:40. I had been really on top of my awareness all day so I decided to fall asleep with some SSILD and meditation.

I can't remember the order of it but I soon found my self in SP. I'll post it my dream journal later but the dream was unpleasant and I could not wake myself out of it. I found myself bouncing from lucid nightmare to SP. On the third SP I wanted out but I was really stuck. I thought I would never want to use this but I remembered reading something about a month ago that said if you want to get out of SP just hold your breath for a few seconds and you will wake up. I did it. For a moment I felt like I was suffocating but too my surprise it worked! I looked at the clock and the time was 10:26PM. WTF?

I'll have to remember the holding your breath thing. The only 2 times that I can remember being in a nightmarish SP and wanting to wake up, I was next to a sleeping someone in bed irl. So, I just mustered every ounce of strength I had to poke the person and wake THEM up so they could wake ME up. But it took a while, and I was panicky the whole time, because I didn't know what else to do. So good tip there, thanks

So when you woke up and the clock said 10:26pm and you were all WTF, was it because it seemed like not enough time had lapsed compared to the dream?

No it was because I had only been asleep like 40 minutes. I've just always been told LDing at the first of night is impossible. Just rare I guess.

Ohhh I see what you mean. I can only recall a few minor lucid fragments that occurred late at night, rather than early in the morning. But they were weird uncomfortable things.

Were you still in your recliner when you had these experiences?

No, we had gone to bed after my little nap on the recliner. I'm sure that brief interruption was a factor in my LD. (waking from recliner and going to bed) I'm used to WBTB nearly every night so maybe this triggered something for me.

BTW I had a brief lucid this morning from one of my old techniques; Get mildy drunk and sleep late! Happy New Year!

I tolally missed my WBTB alarm. The android device that I use for an alarm was mysteriously under the bed rather than under my pillow where I put it. It either fell or I was so out of it I dropped it and it somehow bounced and then slid. The alarm was still buzzing away 3 hours after the fact. IDK weird. I did sort of have a late WBTB. Fed the baby while my wife got ready for work and it was a fitful nap as he was next to me and sporadically squirmy. We changed positions and I fell into a deep sleep after that.

My dead grandfather was busy preparing his own funeral. I recognized the screwed logic in this and became lucid. For some reason when I try to create fire from my hands I wake up. I need to talk to Paigey I think...

Originally Posted by Xanous

BTW I had a brief lucid this morning from one of my old techniques; Get mildy drunk and sleep late!

LMAO. Half of the people I went to college with were apparently avid lucid dreamers.

Congratulations on the lucid! You are doing insanely well!

The caffeine experiment continues... Just a note but it seems melatonin is almost necessary at the beginning of the night for WBTB caffeine. The only problem is that it seems the Melatonin is killing my recall as well as my chances for pre-WBTB DILDs.

Tuesday night I didn't take melatonin as it was already late when I went to bed. I missed my WBTB and woke to go to bathroom at 4:30A. I took 100MG Caffeine and did not become lucid.

Last night I took my usual 5MG Melatonin and this morning I missed my WBTB again by an hour. Ended up waking naturally at 4:30. I was super tired and it was getting too late for a proper WBTB. This time I doubled my caffeine to 200MG. I had a brief unproductive lucid. I really wanted to attempt TOTM. It was so incredibly vivid that I became unsure if I was awake or sleeping. I guess I'll count it but I'm kind of disappointed in this one. I Didn't Mean To Scare You - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

I think 200MG is too much as it was impossible to DEILD and I ended up wide awake 30 min too soon. Also, for now on Melatonin will only be for pre-bed and when I plan to WBTB caffeine even If I have trouble sleeping after WBTB. I think with sufficient relaxation techniques and careful caffeine dosing I can beat any wakefulness.

Tonight I will break from aids and try to do a proper WBTB with meditation.

Congratulations on the lucid! It sounds like you were disappointed in it, but it made for a really cool read. Some of the crap you are doing when you get lucid is too funny. Like digging around in the cat dish for caffeine pills.

So on the melatonin, are you just losing recall before your WBTB? That would strike me as pretty normal, since melatonin ought to load you up on deep sleep at the beginning of the night.

200mg of caffeine is pretty intense, but it sounds like you can handle yourself pretty darn well. I finally got around to watching your meditation video and may try this out for my WBTB, particularly if I am going to take any caffeine. I chuckled when the guy mentioned that we want to be completely thoughtless and enter the "no thought state". I should play that part for my wife and tee up an easy joke at my expense.

Do you just do the breathing meditation for the whole 30 minutes? Anything else? One perhaps silly question comes to mind: do you become concerned about losing track of time when meditating? When I meditate myself to sleep I lose all sense of time it seems.

Edit: Like you, I've also been thinking a lot about teleportation recently, particularly with TotY requiring some serious travel. I'll be working on this as well! I still want to try to in-dream WILD my way somewhere.

Haha thanks. No thought state... hmmm... yeah my wife may have a joke for that as well.

I just do the breathing meditation for as long as I can. I set a "nap" alarm on my device just so I don't have to worry about the time. I am not the great of a meditater yet so I usually lose my focus before the alarm anyway. 15-20 min tops. Also I go ahead and do the suggested sitting position with legs crossed and fingers touching thumbs so I don't fall asleep.

I need to teleport out of my house. I spend too much time escaping. Is the TOTY up yet? I'll have to check. I guess my LD this morning was an in dream WILD of sorts. I always do them accidentally. Maybe I should try it while lucid too. It might be interesting or... I might end up having a FA!

My last two night were failed caffeine WBTB. I felt horribly tired and I couldn't even meditate this morning. When I went back to bed I had zero focus. I didn't even think to do SSILD. I woke up an hour later (that seems about right with the caffeine) feeling like an idiot. I had an interesting and vivid NLD so that was sort of cool. What sucks is I ended up with insomnia the last hour when I was really focused to LD.

I think maybe I should set back my WBTB 30-60 min so that by the time the caffeine wakes me its about time to get up anyway. That way there is less chance of losing sleep. But the fact that there is less time to dream may mess with me some as well.

I don't know if I can make myself but I think a break is in order.... On second thought, maybe one more WBTB caf night then break for a couple. This time I'll go for 4am rather than 3:30AM and try to get to bed early as well. I realized that since the holiday break my bedtimes have been pushed back more and more. I used to shoot for 9PM. Lately its been 10, 11, even midnight. I got to change that for sure. I've been non-lucid for 2 nights in a row ON A WEEKEND and it feels like a dry spell! I can't take it!!!!

Also I have been very lazy keeping my DJ. I've tried to make a stronger effort since yesterday. The problem is when I wake up I feel too lazy to recall the dream and even more lazy to make notes. At some point in the night I felt like I woke from a lucid but could not remember. Or at least I dreamed about lucidity. Who knows. I recorded 2 dreams last night. Better than nothing.

I used to be able to sleep in every weekend now its just a few precious mornings here and there. I think this is had an impact on recall and lucidity. Still I'm doing pretty damned well considering.

If I remember correctly, I had 18 lucids last month when my goal was 10. I sort of hit my phasing goal. I seem to be able to get through glass with some effort. It's getting easier I just have to change the way I think of "solid" objects. I still can't seem to summon fire in my hands though.

This month I'll shoot for 20 lucids, TOTM, TOTY, Summon fire.

Yeah, when you're feeling that tired, it's just hard to pull off effective LD practice. For a million different reasons. This one gets me all the time. If fatigue were not an issue, there's no question that I'd go for an LD and WBTB every single night. But some nights I just take it easy. I like to make at least 3 nights a week just simple sleep w/ only a low-key WBTB. (I've found that WBTB has become pretty natural for me now, unless I'm very fatigued.)

You're right about the caffeine hitting full stride at about 30-60 minutes. That's going to be somewhere around your peak plasma level, and after that, caffeine's elimination half-life is actually pretty high, so you'll be amped for a while. It's hard to know just the right trade-off! You're way closer to figuring it out than I am (since I use the caffeine slightly less frequently, and wasn't the guy who came up with it.) I've been changing it up by using no aids most nights, then rotating in either B6, caffeine, or my once-weekly galantamine. That keeps things interesting too.

You've got to be a bit amused that 2 days without a lucid feels like a dry spell now. You are obviously doing great. You'd probably benefit most from simply getting more sleep, but that's easier said than done. One idea is that you could save caffeine (or whatever aid) only for nights where you will be getting a certain amount of sleep. That'll encourage you to get to bed on time and also help keep you rested when you just can't quite do it. The downside is that it can turn you into kind of a sleep fanatic.

Speaking of that, I even got these blue wavelength-blocking glasses. LOL. I'll have to post a pic of these things sometime. They are cool let me tell you!

(For future reference, tl;dr at bottom)

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

Yeah, when you're feeling that tired, it's just hard to pull off effective LD practice. For a million different reasons. This one gets me all the time. If fatigue were not an issue, there's no question that I'd go for an LD and WBTB every single night. But some nights I just take it easy. I like to make at least 3 nights a week just simple sleep w/ only a low-key WBTB. (I've found that WBTB has become pretty natural for me now, unless I'm very fatigued.)

Yeah that's good advice. I'm definitely going to keep it low key for the next few nights. Last night did not go well. It was pretty much a repeat of last night but It was mostly back luck. First of all, it was just impossible to get to bed before 10. Then, I set my alarm back but I forgot I had an alarm on my other device. I have two so that one can charge and the other can be in my pillow. Well, I forgot to turn the other off and It started vibrating on the night stand. I had some dream about a T-shirt that started vibrating before I woke up. LOL.

When I got up I felt horrible. I seem to want to take a little higher dosage when I feel super tired because I have slept through non-lucid on 200MG before. So sometimes I think a higher dose might be needed. I took 150MG this morning but that was too much. I should never take more than 100MG. Maybe those mornings when I sleep through, I am so tired that any dosage wouldn't matter and I need to just sleep through. So, I think after my break I'm going to try to make 50MG work because even though most of my successes are with 100MG, I still have the issue of being wide awake after I wake up. Also, I think the dreams are probably quite a bit shorter than they normally would have been without it.

So, then my crazy ass cat and she woke me up about 40 minutes after I took caffeine. I think I was just about to hit a REM cycle when she started up. She likes to get in the window and yowl at the neighbor cats very loudly. I don't know what her deal is but I want to kill her sometimes. I had to get up and deal with it. I wanted to beat her but thought it would be more kind to just distract her buy feeding both cats. I took 5MG melatonin at that point but I could never get back to sleep. I was almost there but then it was like I could feel the chemical change when the caffeine peeked. After that my wife started snoring and couldn't turn my mind off anyway. I tossed and turned about an hour before giving up.

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

You're right about the caffeine hitting full stride at about 30-60 minutes. That's going to be somewhere around your peak plasma level, and after that, caffeine's elimination half-life is actually pretty high, so you'll be amped for a while. It's hard to know just the right trade-off! You're way closer to figuring it out than I am (since I use the caffeine slightly less frequently, and wasn't the guy who came up with it.) I've been changing it up by using no aids most nights, then rotating in either B6, caffeine, or my once-weekly galantamine. That keeps things interesting too.

Yeah so, I usually wake up naturally at some point myself. I think if I try anything it will be some B6 or maybe no aids and a quick WILD attempt or a short round of SSILD. As, you all know I'm pretty open with aids but I have to admit there is a certain amount of pride when I have a lucid with out taking anything. I think after the last few nights I may even have some REM rebound to take advantage of.

Speaking of rotating, I will probably get some G some time soon maybe next month. That will be my Saturday night aid only. I only had a brief trial with that and now that I'm really back in the game I'd like to see what I can do with it. Before I used it when had been away and was just now starting to have a few random lucids again. God, now that I think about it, that was was back when I first realized that SP was a useful thing and not to be feared. That was only like 2 years ago. I'm not sure why I practice luicdity for a while then just give up on it. I guess life got in the way. Anyway, that's about 50% of my lucid experiences now. I'm getting really juiced to try to WILD with it. Anyway, I'll be looking over your entries again on that.

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

You've got to be a bit amused that 2 days without a lucid feels like a dry spell now. You are obviously doing great. You'd probably benefit most from simply getting more sleep, but that's easier said than done. One idea is that you could save caffeine (or whatever aid) only for nights where you will be getting a certain amount of sleep. That'll encourage you to get to bed on time and also help keep you rested when you just can't quite do it. The downside is that it can turn you into kind of a sleep fanatic.

Speaking of that, I even got these blue wavelength-blocking glasses. LOL. I'll have to post a pic of these things sometime. They are cool let me tell you!

What? I get spoiled when I have a hot streak. Anyway, that's a good idea but when I make those kinds of rules for myself I usually break them or make compromises anyway. It's better for me to keep things loose and go with what feels right for each night. But I agree, more sleep it the best thing right now. And yeah, I've been a sleep fanatic before and that's almost a lucid cock block by itself.

I've read about those glasses before. Kind of interesting. Let us know if it does anything for you.

I keep rambling on...

tl;dr
So I typed all this to finally remind myself that while my WBTB caffeine method is super awesome, I have to remember that I loose sleep and this will eventually wear me out and cause a dry spell. I must limit the number of nights I WBTBC. Maybe every other or every other two? Also, never more than 100MG.

I know what you mean, those hot streaks turn me into a cock. I'm having a bit of a dry spell since my schedule changed. Hopefully now that the kids are back in school I'll return to "normal."

Your experiment with caffeine is interesting.

Ah sorry to hear that. Yeah, sometimes it seems like lucid dreaming is similar to walking a tight rope. If one little thing is off balance then it all falls apart. You'll be back at it soon.

I think my problem I just get too gung-ho when I find something that works. I always want to milk it for everything I can. I must remember to maintain balance.

I took a night off. Has some cool NLDs. The damn cats still woke me around my WBTB time. But still I got some restful sleep.

This morning I briefly woke up at 4 and took only 50MG Caffeine (1/4 of a pill). That seemed just as effective as any higher dosage. I did some SSILD and had a brief lucid. Most of it was wasted on trying to get an RC to work right. It later turned into a OBE type dream but It's ok. I learned a few things that I will try next time. It seems with the caffeine that I am very limited in my dream time before I am forced awake. If I catch on to thing early then I have a longer dream. But I suppose this happens anyway. Our REM cycles only last so long. Still I can't help but think the caffeine shortens it. I could be wrong. It's just something to consider. I just really want an epic long LD like I had in Sept!

Anyway, even with the smaller dose, I woke about an hour later feeling way too awake. I think I will stick to 50MG and if I just sleep non lucid then I was too tired anyway. Also, when I take caffeine during the week, I plan to do it at 4:30AM from now on. I usually wake 60 - 75 min later. So a 5:30-5:45 wakening wouldn't be so bed when I have to be up at 6 anyway.

Pretty cool to hear that 50mg is looking like it could be the "magic number" for you. That's about what's in 2 cups of green tea, which just so happens to be what I'm converging on as well.

Like you, I've gotten curious about caffeine's effect on REM. I've heard vague references to it limiting and/or shortening REM cycles, but everything I saw was quite hand-wavey. I'll have to look into it in more detail some time in the future. At the very least, like you say, one effect of the caffeine is keeping you balanced on the knife's edge between wakefulness and sleep. Fruitful terrain for an LD, but also quite easy to slip too far to the "awake" side and then... there you are.

I think that all of the dosage tweaking that you're doing and taking the time to space out attempts a bit is just the right approach. This has worked very well for you! Kudos.

Originally Posted by Xanous

But I suppose this happens anyway. Our REM cycles only last so long. Still I can't help but think the caffeine shortens it. I could be wrong. It's just something to consider. I just really want an epic long LD like I had in Sept!

Yeah I've always been confused by how much control we have over the length of our LDs, or if the dream length is ultimately controlled by the natural length of our REM cycles. And that said, can we really control the length of our REM cycles, whereby increasing the length of our LDs?

I've never really tested these things because my LD length and even frequency still happen kinda random for me, even within the sleep schedule that's most conducive to inducing them. Sigh... so many question marks. Glad I have every night for the rest of my life to experiment on it

Sigh... so many question marks. Glad I have every night for the rest of my life to experiment on it

Me too!

I know it's a little out there but I searched for something close to the demon I have encountered 3 times. It likes to pose as my wife then scream at me when I have OBE style lucids. It looks a lot like this but full of more darkness and more triangle shapes. I am curious to find out what it is about. Maybe next time, if I can handle it, I will speak to it.