Thread: Pennyroyal's workbook

Originally Posted by PennyRoyal

I've decided to take on WILD during my WBTBs instead of continuing on with SSILD. I feel as though I've got a decent amount of LDs under my belt and a handful of DEILDs to give me a nudge in the right direction.

Awesome, I'm looking forward to seeing how that goes for you this month!

Going for WILDs is awesome at helping you get acquainted with what the falling asleep process is like for you. You will learn a ton about your personal falling asleep process is like, what you experience on the way under, how much/what kind of hypnagogia you experience, what your transition into a dream scene is like... just tons of stuff. It's a lot like how paying attention to dream signs, journaling, and going hard for DILDs gets you really familiar with what your dreams are like.

Here's to an excellent June!

Originally Posted by paigeyemps

Oooh i love nightmares. Well not while they're happening if im not lucid, no. But when i wake up from them i'm like wow did that really happen, that was cool. AGAIN AGAIN! haha but yes, it's empowering when you turn a nightmare into a lucid. Then you get to kick that fvcker in the face and be like OUTTA MY WAY (yes i do that often but dont tell anyone mmkay). Sometimes though, it's the other way around. It starts out as a lucid then turns into a nightmare. If you have some time, you can check out B*tchfight with Samara from The Ring (Lucid #89 and 90) - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views to know what i'm talking about.

Anywhoo congrats!

Nightmares are pretty awesome - but like you said, AFTER you wake up I love the intensity of them, I havnt had a proper terrifying nightmare since I started trying to LD in February I havn't experienced that yet (lucid turning nightmarish), but oddly enough I'm looking forward to it. hahaha

That was a fantastic dream! Sliding down the waterfall was awesome enough as is, fighting that... terrifying girl was icing on the cake. The Ring scared the hell out of me when it came out lol.

Awesome, I'm looking forward to seeing how that goes for you this month!

Going for WILDs is awesome at helping you get acquainted with what the falling asleep process is like for you. You will learn a ton about your personal falling asleep process is like, what you experience on the way under, how much/what kind of hypnagogia you experience, what your transition into a dream scene is like... just tons of stuff. It's a lot like how paying attention to dream signs, journaling, and going hard for DILDs gets you really familiar with what your dreams are like.

Here's to an excellent June!

I've only been able to take a crack at it once so far, having to get up at 3am for work is messing with my dream time Hopefully I'll be able to update with my first WILD soon when my schedule returns to normal

You too my friend, here's to an awesome June and your next 100 lucids!

I've had pretty abysmal recall the past few days. I managed to get some NLDs remembered last night though, and I think I got close to a WILD.

Used B-6 last night for the first time in a month or two and had one of the more vivid and easily remembered dreams I've had in a while. I usually take 100mg, I decided to give 200mg a try in combination with some Tryptophan rich foods and a large glass of apple juice.

I got 8+ hours of sleep and only remembered the one dream, which was kind of disappointing. It was so vivid and easily remembered that I figured I was in store for at least a few more NLDs.

I havn't had any success with WILD just yet, but I definitely have observed some oddities in my thinking, etc as I get closer to unconsciousness. I tend to experience some light HI as I get close to falling asleep. Not so much 'images', but a rolling black/grey/dark blue fog that usually loops in the same pattern. I've tried to see if I can 'think' the fog into different shapes but it hasn't worked so far.

Originally Posted by PennyRoyal

I havn't had any success with WILD just yet, but I definitely have observed some oddities in my thinking, etc as I get closer to unconsciousness. I tend to experience some light HI as I get close to falling asleep. Not so much 'images', but a rolling black/grey/dark blue fog that usually loops in the same pattern. I've tried to see if I can 'think' the fog into different shapes but it hasn't worked so far.

Cool, you're starting to see what that transition phase is like for you. Took me months to figure out but that's only because I was always sort of... not afraid, but hesitant to try WILD. I'm not sure why, because there's no need to be afraid of it.

What you'll pick up on more and more as you go is getting a feel for your personal rhythms or when to passively observe HI, when to maybe give it a figurative, imaginary nudge, and when to make that final push into your dream scene. I think you'll find that this journey is a lot of fun in and of itself.

Congrats again on the super-vivid dream. I'd be lying if I told you I wasn't thinking about a little cheddar cheese, B6, and AJ or raisins tonight. What foods did you use by the way?

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

Cool, you're starting to see what that transition phase is like for you. Took me months to figure out but that's only because I was always sort of... not afraid, but hesitant to try WILD. I'm not sure why, because there's no need to be afraid of it.

What you'll pick up on more and more as you go is getting a feel for your personal rhythms or when to passively observe HI, when to maybe give it a figurative, imaginary nudge, and when to make that final push into your dream scene. I think you'll find that this journey is a lot of fun in and of itself.

Congrats again on the super-vivid dream. I'd be lying if I told you I wasn't thinking about a little cheddar cheese, B6, and AJ or raisins tonight. What foods did you use by the way?

I'll usually cook up 2 eggs and slap them on a bagel with lots of sharp cheddar and turkey. I've been reading that seafoods, especially crustaceans are rich in Tryptophan. Not a huge seafood fan though other than the occasional tuna sandwich or shrimp lol.


Hey, I have a question for you. I've been thinking about playing a bit with Menthol for dreaming purposes, I notice you contribute to the menthol thread. Is it important to use it in combination with something else? I notice a lot of the posts in the thread people are using it in combination with other supplements.

Edit: Fun fact, I guess Sea lions are SUPER rich in Tryptophan

Hey, I have a question for you. I've been thinking about playing a bit with Menthol for dreaming purposes, I notice you contribute to the menthol thread. Is it important to use it in combination with something else? I notice a lot of the posts in the thread people are using it in combination with other supplements.

I know the question wasn't aimed at me, but I have tried taking menthol for like a week or so, though I never posted on the Menthol thread. From my own experience, I only bought those menthol lozenges at the groceries (the candy type like 'Halls'). I took about 3-5 lozenges about 30 mins before sleeping, and took them right before afternoon naps. For me, they ALWAYS gave me the bizarre kind of nightmares. They were exciting for me, sure, but that's just because I like those kinds of dreams. But in general, my menthol dreams were dark in theme and ominous in tone—murderous and evil, twisted plots with freaky situations. The dreams were very vivid too.

I did the menthol thing with another friend from the chat and she reported experiencing the same things I was.

just wanted to share, not trying to scare you or anything. It might be completely different for you.

Cheers!

Originally Posted by paigeyemps

I know the question wasn't aimed at me, but I have tried taking menthol for like a week or so, though I never posted on the Menthol thread. From my own experience, I only bought those menthol lozenges at the groceries (the candy type like 'Halls'). I took about 3-5 lozenges about 30 mins before sleeping, and took them right before afternoon naps. For me, they ALWAYS gave me the bizarre kind of nightmares. They were exciting for me, sure, but that's just because I like those kinds of dreams. But in general, my menthol dreams were dark in theme and ominous in tone—murderous and evil, twisted plots with freaky situations. The dreams were very vivid too.

I did the menthol thing with another friend from the chat and she reported experiencing the same things I was.

just wanted to share, not trying to scare you or anything. It might be completely different for you.

Cheers!

Thanks Paigey

No worries, not going to scare me. Nightmarish dreams are interesting, and fun after the fact Now i'm a bit more interested hahaa

Originally Posted by PennyRoyal

Hey, I have a question for you. I've been thinking about playing a bit with Menthol for dreaming purposes, I notice you contribute to the menthol thread. Is it important to use it in combination with something else? I notice a lot of the posts in the thread people are using it in combination with other supplements.

Edit: Fun fact, I guess Sea lions are SUPER rich in Tryptophan

Hey PennyRoyal! I apologize for missing your question on menthol!

My experience with menthol has been that it increases dream quantity and vividness (and at certain doses, dreams tend to become more amorous.) It hasn't really made me dramatically more likely to become lucid, which is why I've tended to combine it with other aids. It makes for an excellent supporting supplement to aids that hit the cholinergic system and boost awareness/dream memory and make lucidity more likely.

But I still recommend trying any lucid aid by itself at least once before combining it with anything else. That's good for helping you sort out how that particular aid affects you without any interference from another aid, which can make it harder to separate out what might be doing what. My approach can be a bit boring -- start with a low dose, start with the substance by itself, put lots of space in between uses, etc. but it's what sets me up with the data I need for more interesting combinations down the road.

And LOL @ sea lions being rich in tryptophan. Dig in!

My recall has been very poor this week, I've been doing everything I can to try and give it a boost.. but no luck so far. I'll just have to keep trying and ride it out.

Some success with WILD, I didn't yield what I would consider a 'proper lucid'. I transitioned into a really blurry, low quality dream. The moment I tried to interact with the dream it collapsed and I was looking at the back of my eyelids again.

Few other tries yielded some FAs. I've been doing SSILD cycles instead of relaxation techniques before I try and WILD, It relaxes me anyway and seems to be working. Plus.. I figure If I fall asleep, I'll be setting myself up for some DILDs.

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

My experience with menthol has been that it increases dream quantity and vividness (and at certain doses, dreams tend to become more amorous.) It hasn't really made me dramatically more likely to become lucid, which is why I've tended to combine it with other aids. It makes for an excellent supporting supplement to aids that hit the cholinergic system and boost awareness/dream memory and make lucidity more likely.

Alright, thanks. I was interested in the possibility in improving vividness, so that works out. I have some menthol lozenges at the house already, any recommendation on how many mg as a minimum?

My SSILD cycles have been relaxing me too much lately and I don't even make it to the slow part. It does its job well there, so I can see why you use it! I've found I have to be careful or I fall asleep too quick and it doesn't work anywhere near as well.

For menthol, I experienced some effects as low as ~25mg of menthol. I typically got quite obvious effects in the 30-35mg+ range. You'd probably expect dreams to get a little sexier in that range. You may want to just start on the lowish end, see how things go, then work up from there. Whatever suits your style. These days I use peppermint tea rather than cough drops (got so sick of them!) Tea's downside is I'm never sure exactly how much menthol I'm getting. I measure it in "bags" which feels very inexact to me. I'll probably be switching to peppermint oil soon. (Heavily diluted before consumption.)

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

My SSILD cycles have been relaxing me too much lately and I don't even make it to the slow part. It does its job well there, so I can see why you use it! I've found I have to be careful or I fall asleep too quick and it doesn't work anywhere near as well.

For menthol, I experienced some effects as low as ~25mg of menthol. I typically got quite obvious effects in the 30-35mg+ range. You'd probably expect dreams to get a little sexier in that range. You may want to just start on the lowish end, see how things go, then work up from there. Whatever suits your style. These days I use peppermint tea rather than cough drops (got so sick of them!) Tea's downside is I'm never sure exactly how much menthol I'm getting. I measure it in "bags" which feels very inexact to me. I'll probably be switching to peppermint oil soon. (Heavily diluted before consumption.)

Right on. I'm not SUPER stoked on eating a bunch of lozenges. I'm not a big fan of the taste, but I'm willing to take one for the team in the spirit of experimentation. I figure I'll just start with it since I have them handy. How many mgs do you figure you're getting per 'bag'?

Shamelessly lurking here. I was wondering if the menthol has to be absorbed through the mucous membrane of your mouth to be effective, or if it would work to swallow smallish (!) lozenges, because I'm interested but really don't like the taste of menthol.

Originally Posted by Sibyline

Shamelessly lurking here. I was wondering if the menthol has to be absorbed through the mucous membrane of your mouth to be effective, or if it would work to swallow smallish (!) lozenges, because I'm interested but really don't like the taste of menthol.

Hey Sibyline, lurk away

This would be a question better answered by CL if he sees it. There's an entire thread in the research section for experimenting with menthol though. I'm sure someone could answer you there as well. This morning I chewed up 4 lozenges during a WBTB, and I had one of the most vivid dreams I can remember.

--

Finally broke my spell of zero recall last night and snagged a Lucid as a result of my first 'proper' WILD.

I woke up after 5 hours of sleep and did a 10-15 minutes wbtb. Took about 32mg of menthol in the form of some lozenges. Extremely promising results from my first night of experimentation. Looking forward to see how it goes next time around. Surprisingly, I did get an 'amorous' quality in the beginning. Which I didn't really expect to effect me lol.

Originally Posted by Sibyline

Shamelessly lurking here. I was wondering if the menthol has to be absorbed through the mucous membrane of your mouth to be effective, or if it would work to swallow smallish (!) lozenges, because I'm interested but really don't like the taste of menthol.

I've never seen a lozenge small enough that I wouldn't be frightened to swallow it. I imagine that the cough drop would be dissolved just fine in the stomach and then the menthol absorbed via the gut. I'm not sure how much difference that would make in getting the menthol to the brain, but it's not the kind of thing I'd worry too much about.

You might like peppermint tea a bit better. I get good results from 3 bags (increased dream vividness/quantity) to 6 bags (increased dream vividness/craziness/friskiness.) I've found that it stains whatever glass it's in so my approach now is to drink it through a straw now that I'm paranoid about staining my teeth.

Originally Posted by PennyRoyal

Finally broke my spell of zero recall last night and snagged a Lucid as a result of my first 'proper' WILD.

I woke up after 5 hours of sleep and did a 10-15 minutes wbtb. Took about 32mg of menthol in the form of some lozenges. Extremely promising results from my first night of experimentation. Looking forward to see how it goes next time around. Surprisingly, I did get an 'amorous' quality in the beginning. Which I didn't really expect to effect me lol.

Congratulations again on the excellent WILD! I'm definitely going to be employing some low-dose menthol tonight for a little extra kick of dream vividness. I'm glad that everything worked so well for you last night!

Edit: Oh yeah, and on the question of menthol content per bag... the studies I looked up for this basically showed huge variance in how much menthol different brands contain. So I'm forced to just go with how many bags my brand uses. This is something that I dislike about using tea and why I'll probably go to using diluted essential oil. (Something that should be done with care, btw.)

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

I've never seen a lozenge small enough that I wouldn't be frightened to swallow it. I imagine that the cough drop would be dissolved just fine in the stomach and then the menthol absorbed via the gut. I'm not sure how much difference that would make in getting the menthol to the brain, but it's not the kind of thing I'd worry too much about.

Hm. I see your point. I'm not quite ready to die for my art.

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

You might like peppermint tea a bit better. I get good results from 3 bags (increased dream vividness/quantity) to 6 bags (increased dream vividness/craziness/friskiness.)

3 to 6 bags?!? During a WBTB or before bed?

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

I've found that it stains whatever glass it's in so my approach now is to drink it through a straw now that I'm paranoid about staining my teeth.

Thank you. I like to keep these little neurotic tidbits in my insanity file for subsequent mocking/blackmail purposes. "Big bad wolf folds clothes daintily, drinks through straw to avoid staining fangs." Gotcha!

Originally Posted by Sibyline

3 to 6 bags?!? During a WBTB or before bed?

I prefer to drink this at WBTB. It's about 2 cups of water, room temperature by the time I get to it. Very strong! I wish I could tell you that the same amounts will work for you but there's no consistency in menthol content between brands of peppermint tea. This is the thing that bothers me the most with the tea and is pushing me toward the peppermint oil option.

Some people use peppermint oil capsules and do very well with that. I didn't find a brand in the United States that seemed suitable, but Highlander uses the Hollander & Barett brand. (Surely I've misspelled that.)

Originally Posted by Sibyline

Thank you. I like to keep these little neurotic tidbits in my insanity file for subsequent mocking/blackmail purposes. "Big bad wolf folds clothes daintily, drinks through straw to avoid staining fangs." Gotcha!

LOL. Enjoy the leverage. You know, in spite of my slow, dainty clothes folding, I get the clothes-folding outcomes of a careless 3rd grade boy.

Backpedal all you like.

I do on occasion make hard candy. That might be a solution for making industrial strength menthol pills.

Originally Posted by Sibyline

Backpedal all you like.

I do on occasion make hard candy. That might be a solution for making industrial strength menthol pills.

Oh wow! What a cool idea!

I feel obligated to mention that it actually is possible to overdose on menthol, so measure carefully. That out of the way, you'll have to let us know how the project goes if you decide to try that out!

Yeah... that's where the obsessive/perfectionist trait comes in handy. I did look that up. I promise to be careful, mother.

I really felt like I had a lucid coming last night during the 2 WBTBs I performed, but no luck.

However, I did have the best night of recall so far since I've started recording my dreams. Managed to remember 5 entire dreams, I usually can only manage one or two, and even then the memories are very fragmented. Really hoping I can keep the momentum going with the recall.

No luck yet on grabbing another WILD, I've been falling asleep very easily the past few nights.

I've got about two weeks left to complete my June goals. My recall goal should be just find as long as I continue on as normal, even better if it stays consistent with last night. I'm a bit nervous on completing the number of lucids, I usually fire off a few in the beginning of the month. I still have time though. I tried the spinning technique to change the scene but the dream ended in the middle of the attempt, so I still need to try and change the scene.

Ooh nice recall! Have you checked out Mancon's guide to changing dream scenes? I remember it helping me quite a bit.

Yeah, seriously awesome recall there, man. 10 hours of sleep + 2 WBTBs? Money.

And as I mentioned in your DJ entry, I agree that you were close to lucidity in at least one of those dreams. Of course your dream logic was there to "save you" from lucidity, but you were right on the edge.

Managed to reach my goals for the month, but for some reason I'm having trouble staying motivated. I'm getting lazy with awareness practices, pre-bed stuff, wbtbs.. My recall is suffering as a result.

I'll have to figure something out, maybe when the competition starts it will give me a kickstart.