Thread: Utopian Societies

Originally Posted by Greedo

You're expecting accomodation and services without paying for it. How is that not laziness and purposeful misuse of the system?

What services? Suppose a person declared that they wanted nothing from the government, and that they would get by on their own. What are they stealing?

Originally Posted by drewmandan

What services? Suppose a person declared that they wanted nothing from the government, and that they would get by on their own. What are they stealing?

You can't declare that from the government... Go into hiding, go right ahead. But why in the world would you want to anyways? Why would you not want to live in the utopia?

You can't declare that from the government... Go into hiding, go right ahead. But why in the world would you want to anyways? Why would you not want to live in the utopia?

But why would they have to go into hiding? Would people be searching for them? Isn't it someone's right to live off the land if they so desire as long as they don't screw with the habitat?

What it really comes down is that governments don't like people living off of the land because that can't be taxed.

A peaceful one.

Originally Posted by spockman

But why would they have to go into hiding? Would people be searching for them? Isn't it someone's right to live off the land if they so desire as long as they don't screw with the habitat?

What it really comes down is that governments don't like people living off of the land because that can't be taxed.

Exactly. If everyone went and lived off the land, the government would fold, the nation would collapse, and the people would be oppressed by some giga-nation (ie if this was Canada, then US).

Exactly. If everyone went and lived off the land, the government would fold, the nation would collapse, and the people would be oppressed by some giga-nation (ie if this was Canada, then US).

Ah, so a nation should be an oppressive over-taxing government, denying someone the basic rights of being a person, for the sake of totalitarian utilitarianism?

Originally Posted by spockman

Ah, so a nation should be an oppressive over-taxing government, denying someone the basic rights of being a person, for the sake of totalitarian utilitarianism?

No.. The state should be the providor for the basic necessities in life, while trying to help people be productive yet happy.

AMEN Greedo. I also think that basic nececities like Housing, Medical healthcare, Education and to some extent the society's foodsupply should be taken care of by the government. It's cool with me to pay ALOT of taxes, just so long as I don't have to worry about money bent organisations making rental houses unaffordably pricey, health care being unaffordable for the lower and middle classes and electricity/drinkingwater becomming unethically pricey. The basic nececities should be taken out of the hands of privates, or in some cases price limits-standards should be made by government, to prevent overfixation on as much as possible profit, resulting in the basic nececities of Life becomming UNNECECAIRILY expensive. I think these basic nececities should be non-profit, so people pay taxes JUST so to cover the costs the providing of these basic nececities make.

I don't think we have VERY different ideas of perfect societies. I think we more or less all can agree that a perfect society is one that carries it's own weight economically, with good and free education, a good healthcare system, has room for diversity, is tolerant, is a forward moving developping society with and most of all based on unity: people working together rather then people competing...etc.

However where I DO think we have VERY different ideas from individual to individual is HOW exactly to accomplish that.

How this difference causes every Utopian Society to be sabotaged from within and fail is WONDERFULLY described in gorge Orwell's "Animal Farm".
A Utopian Society only becomes plausible when people surrender their EGO from which all behaviour that causes unnececairy grief and misery are the result.

Thats so true... The ego is what stops these societies from working out. Thats why somehow the dictator should still be regulated.. but how to do that =\ Hah... Tired/cold right now so I cant think straight sorry.

I agree with that statement by itself Greedo. But a society should not force someone to live within that society.

Then move out... Go to another country. But I doubt they will have it as good as here.

So we've established that your society is fine with you runnign away and living in the wild if you so desire?

Mine? If you can keep hidden from the government... Otherwise you'll be put on trial.

Yes there is trial here... Its not jsut "zomg you didnt work death!"

So this statement isn't valid in conjuction with your "utopia."

Then move out... Go to another country. But I doubt they will have it as good as here.

Why? Cuba forces its residents to stay even though some want out. Thats not good imo. So let them out.

Originally Posted by Greedo

Why? Cuba forces its residents to stay even though some want out. Thats not good imo. So let them out.

So, just to be clear, you're saying that your government would allow people to declare themselves non-citizens?

well my utopia, would be this:

start from sccratch. no electricity, no fast food, no beds, no stores, malls, nothing but nature. no sin. no bad temptations. that would be utopia. a world where human would like get along. and if anyone tried to screw it up, death penalty. (without the long wait...)

So, just to be clear, you're saying that your government would allow people to declare themselves non-citizens?

Huh? I never said that =_= I tried to reasonably debate with you about it but now you're just making stuff up. No, it wouldn't... But it would allow emmigration.

Originally Posted by Greedo

Huh? I never said that =_= I tried to reasonably debate with you about it but now you're just making stuff up. No, it wouldn't... But it would allow emmigration.

So, at what point does a person stop being a citizen? After they leave the country? I'm just harping on this point because your system seems to be irrationally harsh on those who object to your personal ideals, and anyone who does is put to death. So it's quite literally a matter of life or death when a person stops being a citizen.

It's like citizenship in every other normal country... If you move, you retain it. You can come back. Immigration is a different issue. However, you can't cancel citizenship if you live in the country. It's not possible. You can move, and then cancel it.

Originally Posted by Greedo

It's like citizenship in every other normal country... If you move, you retain it. You can come back. Immigration is a different issue. However, you can't cancel citizenship if you live in the country. It's not possible. You can move, and then cancel it.

I'm just wondering if there's some strange arbitrary law that causes a person to be executed on the way out of the country.

No.. like I said, if you don't like it, go somewhere else. We won't stop you. Not saying they'll let you in, and if they don't we'll welcome you back with open arms.

Ok, great. Now what if a person lives off the grid within the country's borders? Is that some kind of crime?

Yes, since the government wants to keep track of who is living in there. It would be a crime to go to Canada/America for vacation and then start living in the bushes there. It's illegal immigration..