Lucid Dream application for Zeo

**DawgBone** · 08-14-2010 02:29 PM

I'm planning a lucid dream application for Zeo and would be interested in any suggestions Dreamview members might have.

If you are unfamiliar with Zeo visit: Zeo Personal Sleep Coach - Home and check out this thread: http://www.dreamviews.com/f11/has-an...ed-zeo-101025/

Basically the application will do what sleep masks do. It will recognize REM and signal you in some way. It could flash a light or play a sound.

But, unlike sleep masks, we will have the full power and programability of a PC to work with. Get your creativity in gear and let me know your suggestions. The software will be open source and free to Dreamview members.

-DB

**stjimmy** · 09-02-2010 06:01 PM

Have you had any progress with this? I would like to help.

**DawgBone** · 09-02-2010 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by stjimmy

Have you had any progress with this? I would like to help.

Hi stjimmy,

It will be a fairly simple to recognize REM and then play a sound file on a PC. I have to get up to speed with Python and the QT toolkit first. :-)

The more interesting functionality would be to implement communication. The dreamer makes some sort of obvious eye movement while still dreaming, thus signaling the fact that he is lucid. LaBerge talks about this in ETWOLD. Zeo doesn't identify eye movement, but the raw data is available, and eye movement does generate a very obvious signal in the raw data. I'm thinking that a neural net will be the way to do this. It will involve substantial work. I'll probably release a simple prototype first, without communication.

Zeo is cool, however, just because of its sleep phase graphing. How much deep sleep are you getting each night? Is it mostly in the first 4 hours? When does REM start? How often do you wake? All this stuff could be very interesting and potentially useful to LDers.

Helping would be great! Are you a hacker? Testing needs to be done. Suggestions for improving basic functionality and interface would be very helpful.

--DB

**stjimmy** · 09-02-2010 10:38 PM

Testing needs to be done. Suggestions for improving basic functionality and interface would be very helpful.

I'm not a hacker or programer so I would only be able to help with these kinds of things, but count me in for anything you need that doesn't require programing skills (although I do have some programing background so I know basic things about algorithms and such, I could also help with algorithm design).

**DawgBone** · 09-03-2010 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by stjimmy

I'm not a hacker or programer so I would only be able to help with these kinds of things, but count me in for anything you need that doesn't require programing skills (although I do have some programing background so I know basic things about algorithms and such, I could also help with algorithm design).

Sounds good. I'm going to spend some time on this project during September. Hopefully I'll have a primitive prototype by the middle of October. That will give us something to work with, think about, and improve. If you would, start making a list of features.

--DB

**Puffin** · 09-03-2010 12:35 AM

Not to sound negative... but in order to become lucid from an application like this, you'd have to be aware enough in the first place to recognize the light (or any other cue), which sort of defeats the purpose of it. You can't just use the program without doing anything else. You could always just practice awareness in reality without having to use Zeo.

Good luck with the development nevertheless, though!

**stjimmy** · 09-03-2010 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by Puffin

Not to sound negative... but in order to become lucid from an application like this, you'd have to be aware enough in the first place to recognize the light (or any other cue), which sort of defeats the purpose of it. You can't just use the program without doing anything else. You could always just practice awareness in reality without having to use Zeo.

Good luck with the development nevertheless, though!

I can see your point, although I'd say it would be much easier to train awareness for a specific cue as opposed to training awarness for several dream signs or just awareness in general.

Also, if you had a cue such as your own voice saying "this is a dream" or something along those lines, it would be kind of hard to miss, don't you think?

A related question: Do you think, then, that devices like REM Dreamer and NovaDreamer aren't useful? I ask because I'm seriously considering getting the REM Dreamer

**Puffin** · 09-03-2010 01:55 AM

You have more chances to be lucid if it's general awareness, as the cue doesn't show up except at certain points. Without awareness, even if a DC's waving a flag that says "you're dreaming", you'll probably miss it.

I personally don't think devices such as NovaDreamer are worth the investment; I've gotten along fine without them. But I don't want to influence your decision too much.

**DawgBone** · 09-03-2010 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by Puffin

Not to sound negative... but in order to become lucid from an application like this, you'd have to be aware enough in the first place to recognize the light (or any other cue), which sort of defeats the purpose of it. You can't just use the program without doing anything else. You could always just practice awareness in reality without having to use Zeo.

Good luck with the development nevertheless, though!

Why you little brat!

I help you with your website, and you give me this! :-) (The site looks terrific by the way)

It's true that a flashing light or a sound file is just another type of dream sign which you have to train yourself to recognize. But you will always get that dream sign every time you enter REM. We don't always have a recognizable dream sign in every dream. With the application we will.

Plus it will do more, like enabling communication.

Now, go away. :--)

**Puffin** · 09-03-2010 03:28 AM

Ah, good point.

And thanks, lol. Your coding helped me a lot.

**stjimmy** · 09-03-2010 04:15 PM

(The site looks terrific by the way)

It sure does, congrats Puffin =)

**Puffin** · 09-03-2010 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by stjimmy

It sure does, congrats Puffin =)

Thank you!

**topcat** · 11-23-2011 11:53 PM

Any progress on this?

Ev · 11-24-2011 10:02 AM

haha, way to necropost

Zeo is 300$. With 300$, you can break your current cell phone contract and get an iPhone4. Why buy a standalone device when in 6 months someone may get the same dry sensor for EEG, slap a bluetooth on it and hook it up to your iPhone? And iPhone is such a pleasure to work with. It lets you do amazing things, that no stanalone hardware would be able to achieve in the next few years. If it doesn't work with iPhone, don't buy it.

**BrianS** · 11-26-2011 06:39 PM

Hi Ev,

FYI, the Zeo Mobile is now available (essentially exactly what you described, an eeg with bluetooth): Zeo Sleep Manager - Mobile for $100. It doesn't have a lucid dreaming feature yet, but we are looking into building some open libraries for it so others can build lucid dreaming apps using it.

Best,
Brian

Ev · 11-26-2011 08:16 PM

What kind of APIs do you plan on building into your bluetooth enabled Zeo?

**BrianS** · 11-26-2011 08:29 PM

Currently we are looking at enabling other android apps to directly retrieve sleepstage information in real time from the main Zeo app. Hopefully a similar interface for the iPhone will follow.

We are not sure yet if we will be able to get the full raw brainwave data or not. Since the bluetooth protocol is so power hungry, we aren't sure if we can stream that much data without completely killing the battery life.

**DollarBay** · 01-21-2012 08:28 AM

I have a zeo and am interested in this. any progress?

**unknow005** · 01-29-2013 02:23 PM

Hello,

I ordered Zeo "Bedside" and start programming application called Lucid Dream Inductor. I have experiences with hacking OCZ NIA headband and Neuroskys EEG headphones, REM dreame and tons of dream alarms. I hope Zeo will be another step toward lucid dreams and obes.

My app have some (hope) good stuff like playing binaural beat which lower volume when you lower your brainwaves, records night session and feedback sound to sleep person. I even add option ability for connect sleep mask with LEDs. It is easy to create one and is controlled by COM port (so only bedside Zeo work with it). I even have 20 records list to see differences in each sessions.

I hope it can be used for lucid dream but even for astral projection. Have good success if I apply undirect method when mask accidentaly woke me up.

Programming communication looks very easy but I have one problem.... I have no blog, web pages etc. to distribute it. App will be for free and I speak very bad english!

So please if here is someone who have Zeo bedside and want try it and type english texts for me to my app, it will be good. I want just some sentences for about tab, some help and instrunctions for use my app and how create sleep mask with LEDs.

Thank you.