Thread: dreaming you're lucid O_o

Yeah, it's possible. It's happened to me twice

I've had that happen. Just remember your reality checks to break that, though!

I hear this a lot, but I don't really believe that "dreaming you're lucid but not being lucid" is possible in the manner it describes itself in. To Dream you're lucid but not really be lucid, would mean to dream you're aware you're dreaming, but not really be aware you're dreaming.

Is this not a paradox?

Granted that simple, probably passive, awareness is argueably the 'lowest level' of lucid dreaming, if you're 'dreaming that you're aware that what you're witnessing is a dream,' you're aware that what you're witnessing is a dream. So...you're lucid. No?

WONDERING whether or not you're dreaming is not lucidity, nor is it 'dreaming you're lucid' it is simply a state of uncertainty.

Yes, this is a very good question, I always ask myself, how do you know you're actually lucid dreaming, and not just dreaming that you're lucid dreaming? It's quite possible to have a dream of you lucid dreaming, it's like watching a movie of you controlling the events in a movie. I think I know, however, the certain feeling you get when you are really lucid, it's hard to recall it after you wake up, but it's like you're asleep and awake at the same time, well at least for me.

Lucid dreaming and dream control are not the same thing.
To view yourself controlling a dream, is to view yourself controlling a dream. If you know you're dreaming, while watching yourself control the events, you're lucid. If you don't know you're dreaming, while you're watching yourself control a dream, you're not lucid, while watching yourself control a dream.
That is not dreaming of lucid dreaming. Thats dreaming of watching yourself control a dream. Not the same thing. The feeling you have after a lucid dream is because you wake up knowing that you knew you were dreaming while you were dreaming. If you're passively watching your dream, even if that dream is of you dreaming and flying around and blowing shit up with your mind, you are still not dreaming of lucid dreaming, you're dreaming of Dream Control.

Originally posted by bobsworth
i was jsut wondering if you can dream that you are lucid and not actually be lucid. i started wondering this because i thought i was but i wasn't and knew that i wasn't at all when i woke up!

Yes, definitely. And, I must say, I've experienced and participated in some really amazing stories and scenes because of this.

The key difference, as I think it usually is, is memory - whether or not you remember that you are a human person in bed on a planet called "Earth." If this fact does not occupy a memory space in or at least in close proximity to your attention, then you are likely to forget it, and go on acting as if you are someone else.

It is very wonderful and at the same time cause for some worry (why is my waking identity not good enough? Am I schizophrenic?), but, if you can get over that, I think you can really push the envelope of what is essentially dramatic environment construction. Theater building.

To illustrate, I once dreamt that I was a cop, who was often recruited for national special forces work in psychic phenomena, which I had gained through my lucid dreaming skills. Now, the bad guys were expert lucid dreamers as well, but they couldn't match us. The story shifted back and forth between scenes in a physical kind of world to scenes inside lucid dreams. In those scenes I had the faux-lucid identity of a dream cop, experiencing his way of doing things, his troubles and his desires, while tracking criminals through a dream landscape, and waking to a consistent but faux-waking state to cuff them up and book 'em. To say that it is a "story" would seem to flatten it and make it unremarkable. It seemed to include, among other things, the marriage between a play and a movie (it was multidimensional, but inseparable from a mise en scène).

This is the one I thought was easiest to explain in one paragraph, but there have been a large number of others that were even more complex! For instance, in another I not only dreamed I was a character who was in a waking life and a lucid dream life, but in 3 or 4 entirely different others as well. Imagine that one of them was a virtual reality simulation used for learning, another was a means of interacting with another environment (like an interface), and another was the spiritual world, while still others were perhaps like a "god world" or something else. And my character would travel between these worlds as part of the story!

I hope this isn't boring you. I just wanted to say that what might be considered an undesirable oddity could really be a window into different kinds of experience. Truthfully, I feel I should add a disclaimer, because, if you want my opinion, waking up from such dreams and facing the real world has the effect of seeing the preceding experience as a kind of "shattered window" in the mind. The real world will seem even more limited, perhaps even "stuffy," and this could be very upsetting. If you cannot emotionally diffuse yourself of the complexity, you could get a new version of fucked up.

Mic check...is this thing on?

Ok, someone is going to have to break down "dreaming you're lucid dreaming" to me. Because so far what I've seen is "dreaming about supernatural, obviously-not-realistic, fantastical, even transrestrictional (word?) stuff, which is all fine and good. However none of these account hint at something that has to do with lucid dreaming. Sure a lot of the out-of-this-world things people find they can usually only Do while they're lucid, it does not mean that being unaware of dreaming, while experiencing things you know can only be experienced in a dream is "dreaming of lucid dreaming." I think this phrase itself is confusing to both the speaker and the listener because it is rather misleading. "Dreaming you're lucid dreaming" would have nothing to do with the believability of your dream content, but is a concept that deals Only with awareness. "Dreaming You're Lucid Dreaming" = "Dreaming You're Aware that You're Dreaming." In this context, how do any of the the above examples relate? I think the catchy phrase is drawing more people into using it than actually understand what 'dreaming you're lucid dreaming' constitutes....


....any thoughts on this, this time?

Right. When you're "dreaming your lucid" you're not really lucid. In other words, you don't really know that it's a dream.

Think of it as the opposite of a false awakening. In a false awakening, you appear to have exited a lucid dream when you really haven't. But in this case, you appear to have entered a lucid dream when you really haven't. I suppose it can be called "false induction."

When I was dreaming that I was a lucid cop, my reality base to define that as a dream was, in fact, another dream, and not reality proper. Here, I'm taking advantage of the openness of the term "lucid dreaming," to not exclude the possibility of using it to apprehend criminals in a smash hit psychic detective sort of way... it seems that is leading to some confusion. I'll try a more mundane example.

I once dreamt that I was a married man and, as a married man, I had a lucid dream about my wife.

There, in one sentence, that should be a simple example of a false induction, faux-lucidity, or "dreaming of lucidity," without anything fantastical or otherwordly.

If you're perplexed by the supernatural nature of the examples I mentioned previously, well, doesn't it make sense to that a distortion in what is or is not realistic would coincide with fake lucidity...? I was already dreaming of a world where these things were possible (and they are quite ordinary - in dreams!) so a lucid dream to that dream self would be categorically different.

It's this difference that I'm saying it's an amazing experience... because, you know, lucidity is already an amazing experience, so wouldn't it be more amazing to experience lucidity under different frames of reference?

What I'm talking about is purely aesthetic. Don't think of supernatural stuff or you'll confuse yourself.

its really hard for me to describe what i mean.

in my dream i was on a wheelie chair going down a motorway (don't ask) and i stopped and thought to myself "o i'm lucid" but then just carried on with the thought of being lucid even though i wasn't at all because i couldn't do anything when i tried to. *takes deep breath* Which means that i actually was lucid because i was able to try and do something and fail even though i wasn't lucid at all because i knew i wasn't lucid which means i must have been lucid to know that i wasn't lucid so so i wasn't lucid but how do i know i wasn't if i wasn't unless i was but i wasn't.

yeh i think it's a bit of a paradox. i hate thinking like this.

"Aha." @ Ex-Nine. I see what you're saying. So much so, now, that I wonder if I was paying full attention to your first explaination. However this is worlds apart from any other interpretation of "dreaming I'm lucid" that I've heard so far, including the one that started this thread. Before yours it was more "I thought I was lucid, but when I woke up, I didn't have that 'feeling,' so I guess it was a fake lucid" which I still don't understand.

But as far as yours is concerned, "Wow." I've never experienced the multi-tiered reality of inducing a lucid dream by falling asleep inside of a dream, as a dream char. (But I suppose if your dream char was an expert lucid dreamer, it only makes sense that you would not be lucid and still try to induce a lucid, so I understand that.) I've only had dreams from the perspective of myself, and falling asleep and dreaming from that state has only brought me to dream scene changes, that could be considered dreams within dreams I suppose. But I guess this brings about a question of perception. Could you really call that transition a dream within a dream, Or simply your initial dream rearranging itself to an environment that would make you believe your 'dream self' itself was having a dream that was completely a third tier away from your waking conscious? (I'm probably over analyzing the concept, but I think psychologically it is an interesting question.) I see why you related it to schizophrenia, because going too far into this experiment would be like standing in a room with mirrors on all sides, and all versions of yourself fighting for claim of the True identity. Lol. Mindboggling in itself.
So you have been able to wake from the third tier "lucid" dreams and continue your non-lucid dream reality as a dream char as if you were truely coming back to waking life........That's Amazing! (No sarcasm intended, despite my enthusiasm.) Seriously, I wish I had that sort of stability. Now This I do believe is possible, but I also think it is a complete 180 from the "it just didn't feel like I'm lucid" explaination that I've heard many people refer to as "dreaming that I'm lucid but not being lucid." Not one person has ever even introduced the concept of lucid dreaming from the perspective of a dream persona other than their original, waking persona. Thanks for clearing that up.

A few questions though, if you don't mind:
What is the longest time you've ever percieved to pass by in one beginning-to-end dream sequence? Days, weeks? Is this time stretch something that just came about on its own, or did you practice it?
Finally, by saying "In a false awakening you appear to have exited a lucid dream when you really haven't." do you mean that in the litteral, meaning consciously you're still in the dream, lucid, or you're just using that loosely to say "your Lucidity is gone, but you haven't fully woken up"? I'm assuming you meant the latter, but I just want that one cleared up before I get confused again.



And to bobsworth:

This is more along the lines of what I was talking about. You flickered yourself in and out of the lowest level of lucidity by questioning your state of mind instead of Knowing it. You knew, instinctually, that you were dreaming at first. That is all you need to do to be lucid. Control comes with the ability to act without a shred of doubt. (Doubt is usually the opposing force that will keep you from doing whatever it is you want to do, however not being able to do everything at will does not mean you lost your lucidity, simply that it isn't high enough to override the doubt.) It is very frustrating sometimes, very confusing when you're first starting out, but it does not mean you aren't successfully lucid. Next time you know you're dreaming, focus more on the fact that you Know you're dreaming (its a little less confusing that debating whether "I'm Lucid" or not, because the meaning of "Lucid" is often misinterpretted) than whether or not you can do any and everything you wish. It might help you keep your mind more focused in maintaining your lucidity, rather than losing lucidity due to loss of focus because you're trying to control things. Control should come a little more easily after that.

Originally posted by Oneironaut
Before yours it was more \"I thought I was lucid, but when I woke up, I didn't have that 'feeling,' so I guess it was a fake lucid\" which I still don't understand.

Oh, I didn't see that. Now that I do, I don't fully understand it either.

I suppose it's possible to have fake lucidity while still having your normal concept of self, but not a normal concept of a self in a proper scene.

I'm recalling a dream where I was standing on a runway watching an airliner land. I thought, \"this is strange, this is like a dream\" and a did not take the full step to say that it was a dream. I then floated a little bit and experieced a few seconds of other small things that were like being lucid, but never acknowledge the fact this entire scene actually was a dream. I'm not sure I'd call that dreaming of lucidity, but \"dreaming of something like lucidity\"... because in my cop experience I was definitely thinking \"this is a dream\" but doing it in a totally improper context.

Hmm... gosh, that is a delicate concept, now that I think of it. Because, when we dream of a friend, for instance, are we dreaming of that friend or someone like that friend? It's difficult to draw the line.

Could you really call that transition a dream within a dream...[/b]

No, I definitely don't think it adds to understanding to talk about any dreams like that. If distinguishing them are necessary, it seems it would be better to call them \"dreams between dreams.\"

So you have been able to wake from the third tier \"lucid\" dreams and continue your non-lucid dream reality has a dream char as if you were truely coming back to waking life........That's Amazing![/b]

Sure! But, you know, it's really just another kind of false awakening. And things might warp and change as they normally do from then on. Things aren't completely stable and these experiences don't last much longer than others. There's consistency but it's ultimately illusory. Don't fall to the same illusion!

Not one person has ever even introduced the concept of lucid dreaming from the perspective of a dream persona other than their original, waking persona.[/b]

Are you sure?

I think it's happening to me because, for the past few years, I've been trying to think of a really good story that inorporates lucid dreaming. I suppose it would only naturally follow that I'd dream about characters who are dreaming. But so far I haven't been motivated by any idea in particular... I'm afraid of it getting all paranormal and fantastic and silly. There's already too much of that garbage. So if I'm afraid of it then it would follow that I'd dream of it.

What is the longest time you've ever percieved to pass by in one beginning-to-end dream sequence? Days, weeks? Is this time stretch something that just came about on its own, or did you practice it?[/b]

Oh, I don't know.. that's a bit complicated. In one of these types of experiences it wouldn't be very long at all. The character would be able to lucid dream effortlessly (and he should, he's in a frickin' dream already!) so he would do an induction from the waking state within seconds. Remember, it's not me doing the induction because I'm still dreaming! I'm dreaming of a lucid induction instead of actually having one.

And, I have to be clear about this, that means the lucidity is not lucidity for me... but that still doesn't mean I'm dreaming of something like lucidity, even though we've just established that it is in fact not lucidity... because it actually is lucidity for the dream persona! So the persona is fake... but what sense does it make to say that its actions are fake as well? When Mickey Mouse drives a steamboat, is he \"fake driving\" or is he \"driving a fake steamboat?\"

This is very strange, when I think about it... by reducing lucidity to a story element I've reduced it to a normal dream element.

And I'm trying to be careful about talking about time within dreams... I sort of follow LaBerge in that the time passing by in dreams is actually the same amount of time that passes in the real world, but that it's just that the dream environment is so mutable that it only appears a different amount of time has passed.

And finally, by saying \"In a false awakening you appear to have exited a lucid dream when you really haven't.\" do you mean that in the litteral, meaning consciously you're still in the dream, lucid, or you're just using that loosely to say \"your Lucidity is gone, but you haven't fully woken up\"? I'm assuming you meant the latter, but I just want that one cleared up before I get confused again.[/b]

Yeah, I'm sorry I worded that poorly... I meant the latter.

So you really think no one has ever mentioned this? I admit it's a little weird sounding, and I've never really thought it through (I've edited this post numerous times), but I'd think that a lot of artists or authors would dream in different personas, and if an artist or author wanted their characters to be lucid dreamers, then they might dream of fake lucidity as well.

-----------------

And, well, now that I think of it... perhaps I really am dreaming of something like lucidity and not dreaming of lucidity. When we dream of things were are by definition dreaming of fake things and, therefore, only dreaming of things that are "like" things... but this is weird, because many psychologists, like LaBerge, already think that consciousness is a reconstruction of reality and not reality itself.

Hmm, now I'm the one confusing myself.

Lol.

Long story short: I just wrote out a whole damn page in response, and right before I pushed submit..my comp locked up. Lol.
..Somebody upstairs is laughin too.

And, I have to be clear about this, that means the lucidity is not lucidity for me... but that still doesn't mean I'm dreaming of something like lucidity, even though we've just established that it is in fact not lucidity... because it actually is lucidity for the dream persona! So the persona is fake... but what sense does it make to say that its actions are fake as well? When Mickey Mouse drives a steamboat, is he \"fake driving\" or is he \"driving a fake steamboat?\"[/b]

I gotcha. Thats like the analogy I used with the self reflections in the mirror. How do you tell the reflection that the counter next to it isn't the real counter? Or that the reflection itself isn't the real you? I never looked at dreaming a character's dreams like that. Craziness.