Thread: Ego Death

I agree somewhat. Individualism is one of the reasons why we have nice things.

What if ego death sort of sets you free. I don't know what kind of ego death is possible without pumping up on some hallucinogen or being in meditation permanently, but to stay alive with a semi-functional brain some sort of ego has to be here. By taking that into account, ego death or at least ridding yourself of attachments to the ego and of the ego via a life-changing enlightenment could be the answer some people seek and find to their problems... it was the ego's idea or event that led to do this, afterall. Maybe you and I are in a semi-comfortable time interval to love all life has to offer, but we might not see this when we get to feel some of the other things it has to offer. I haven't felt ego death, not in dreams and I haven't done drugs. But I'm sort of fond of the idea of an ego-less ego. A you that exists without the burdens that the standard "out of the box" ego brings, as some pseudoego which lives as "one with the universe" and can apreciate it as a human at the same time. That would solve the problem of choosing between staying yourself or having to kill yourself ... I don't know what I'm talking about, maybe I'm just describing hippies.


kookync -Cogito ergo sum... how do you know that sum isn't an assumption? What if it's Cogito ergo is est or something.

The way I see it, ego death isn't an elimination of individual consciousness, but a shattering of our ability to put on cognitive masks to deal with the world and ourselves. It is without these processes that our unfiltered individualism shines forth. That's why creativity, something distinctly personal, is known to spike during experiences of ego-death.

Is it not ironic that it's your ego that drove you to come onto dreamviews and rant about ego-death?

You don't understand because you have never experienced it.

I do not admit any of your prior admissions. I only know that one cannot have 5 prior to 1. That the Universe of discourse cannot exist prior to the unit of discourse.

Until the individual is a unit, I can only believe that those who preach ego-death, are just trappers looking to ensnare fools.

They are simply preaching lack of self awareness and self responsibility.

Mind: That environmental acquisition system which must acquire from experience the forms of behavior that maintain and promote the life of the INDIVIDUAL body.

These discussions of ego death almost invariably result from experiences with psychedelic drugs, which I think is part of the reason for this attitude. I'm not sure that there's anything inherently pleasurable about ego death itself (it's neat I suppose), however, typically drugs that induce it also separately induce a sense of euphoria. So my conjecture is that many people mistakenly assume that the contentedness they are feeling is a causal product of the ego death they are experiencing, when in fact the euphoria is simply a separate and independent effect of the drug they just consumed. In other words, It's not "Drug ---> Ego Death ---> Euphoria"; it's "Ego Death <--- Drug ---> Euphoria". When people mistake the latter causal chain (which I believe is what is actually happening) for the former causal chain, the result is the attitude from the OP.

Originally Posted by DuB

These discussions of ego death almost invariably result from experiences with psychedelic drugs, which I think is part of the reason for this attitude. I'm not sure that there's anything inherently pleasurable about ego death itself (it's neat I suppose), however, typically drugs that induce it also separately induce a sense of euphoria. So my conjecture is that many people mistakenly assume that the contentedness they are feeling is a causal product of the ego death they are experiencing, when in fact the euphoria is simply a separate and independent effect of the drug they just consumed. In other words, It's not "Drug ---> Ego Death ---> Euphoria"; it's "Ego Death <--- Drug ---> Euphoria". When people mistake the latter causal chain (which I believe is what is actually happening) for the former causal chain, the result is the attitude from the OP.

So how is it mistaken? Do you have any explanation behind this distinction?

I'd say that "Ego death" is something entirely different; that drugs only suppress the egoic tendencies, which results in euphoria/joy/peace, etc. If it was real ego-death, there'd be no end to the high-state. Of course, this is just a generalization about drugs. I'm talking about the one's that make you go "high" or experience unity in the universe, since not all of them function as such. This feeling is very much not a separate consequence or cause, but a result of suppressing the egoic consciousness, which in itself is the only system that blocks the inner state of joy.

E.g. That a person thinks he/she is a separate individual is an egoic tendency. Therefore, if they take a certain kind of drug that suppresses that to some degree, they will feel a cosmic unity. Likewise, without drugs, one can suppress the ego tendencies more or less and still feel greater joy/peace as an automatic consequence, but not a cause. In fact, you will notice that the more ego-centric people are, the less happy they are.

It's mistaken because the presumption is that it is ego death (or "suppression") itself which is causing one to feel peaceful and euphoric, whereas if my speculation is correct it is not caused by ego death per se, but is rather a separate pharmacological effect of the drug, unrelated to the effect of ego death. Just as you can feel euphoric without ego death, you can feel ego death without euphoria. One does not necessarily lead to the other, they only tend to be experienced together because of the particular drugs taken.

Well it doesn't look like you really understood what I meant, because if that is truly the case, then "ego-death" is both meaningless and extraneous. You then do not require ego-death if you can experience euphoria regardless of the ego's dominance, and it is very much arguable that people are not and cannot be in a bliss state whilst still attached to it. So I'd have to ask, what does "ego-death" mean to you?

Originally Posted by really

Well it doesn't look like you really understood what I meant, because if that is truly the case, then "ego-death" is both meaningless and extraneous. You then do not require ego-death if you can experience euphoria regardless of the ego's dominance

I think we're actually on the same page after all, because the line I highlighted is essentially my point.

Originally Posted by DuB

I think we're actually on the same page after all, because the line I highlighted is essentially my point.

The fact that I paraphrased your basic point does not mean that I agree with it. Surely the remainder of my explanations demonstrate this?!

So again, do you mind explaining what you mean by the term "ego-death"?

"How are we gonna keep building nuclear weapons, you know what I mean? What's gonna happen to the arms industry when we realize that we're all one?!"

Can't you see why this might be a good thing for people to experience?

I can see why it's a good thing to experience, but I can also see why it's a good thing to maintain our individuality.

I think that the benefits of maintaining our individuality greatly exceed the benefits of achieving universal ego-death. Especially when the means to the universal ego-death involve forcing ego-death on all living things, in order to achieve universal utopia, whether people want it or not.

But, you know, that's just like, my opinion, man.

I have to agree with DuB, though. Correlation =/= Causation. Unfortunately, I think it would be very difficult to achieve scientific accuracy in an ego-death experiment to see if ego-death does indeed cause euphoria.

Even if it did, though, who would want to experience perpetual euphoria? Shit would get boring, after a while.

Originally Posted by really

The fact that I paraphrased your basic point does not mean that I agree with it. Surely the remainder of my explanations demonstrate this?!

So again, do you mind explaining what you mean by the term "ego-death"?

All I claimed was that you seemed to understand what I meant, not that we were in agreement. If you scroll up you may notice that I was responding to your assertion that we weren't understanding one another. With that issue aside, it is obvious to me that you disagree with my view, since you claimed (a) that "the egoic consciousness" is "the only system that blocks the inner state of joy," and (b) that "greater joy/peace" are "an automatic consequence" of "suppress[ing] the ego tendencies." Both of these are directly contrary to my view.

From what I can tell, we seem to have the same definition of "ego death" (cosmic unity and all that jazz--yes we're on the same page here), the only distinction being the minor quibble you brought up about "death" implying that the ego is gone forever. That's fine: you can refer to what I'm talking about as "temporary ego suppression" if it pleases you, the point is we seem to be referring to the same phenomenon, so I won't bother launching into a further redescription of it (I have written a little bit about my experiences with it here if you're interested).

Returning to the original issue, I don't agree with either of your claims from above. You claim that suppressing the ego automatically leads to joy and/or peace, however, it is undeniably the case that many people find this experience to be unpleasant or even downright terrifying. The OP of this thread appears to find it unpleasant, and you only need to browse the Erowid trip report vaults for examples of people who were terrified by it. So it seems that joy and peace are not automatic consequences of ego death after all.

Originally Posted by DuB

All I claimed was that you seemed to understand what I meant, not that we were in agreement. If you scroll up you may notice that I was responding to your assertion that we weren't understanding one another. With that issue aside, it is obvious to me that you disagree with my view, since you claimed (a) that "the egoic consciousness" is "the only system that blocks the inner state of joy," and (b) that "greater joy/peace" are "an automatic consequence" of "suppress[ing] the ego tendencies." Both of these are directly contrary to my view.

Yes. Exactly.

From what I can tell, we seem to have the same definition of "ego death" (cosmic unity and all that jazz--yes we're on the same page here), the only distinction being the minor quibble you brought up about "death" implying that the ego is gone forever. That's fine: you can refer to what I'm talking about as "temporary ego suppression" if it pleases you, the point is we seem to be referring to the same phenomenon, so I won't bother launching into a further redescription of it (I have written a little bit about my experiences with it here if you're interested).

This was not clear to me before, but thanks for pointing it out. The reason why I asked you was to see if you agreed with it conceptually, rather than just as an experience. If that was the case, I don't think there'd be any disagreement. What seems to be contradictory is that you define "ego-death" as cosmic unity, yet along your lines, I would think that cosmic unity would have to be a separately induced phenomenon? I ask this also because I see no difference between happiness and unity. If the answer is 'yes', then you still need to explain why ego-death can even exist as a separate phenomena, if not more so why it should exist at all.

Returning to the original issue, I don't agree with either of your claims from above. You claim that suppressing the ego automatically leads to joy and/or peace, however, it is undeniably the case that many people find this experience to be unpleasant or even downright terrifying. The OP of this thread appears to find it unpleasant, and you only need to browse the Erowid trip report vaults for examples of people who were terrified by it. So it seems that joy and peace are not automatic consequences of ego death after all.

While it seems plausible on its own, this isn't really a contradiction at all. Fear in itself is an ego tendency; not a consequence of having suppressed the ego. It is something to be expected when one might be experiencing something new, and especially when confronted with the unknown, where there might be lack of control and certainty. But it is not something to be experienced directly after the ego has more or less been diminished; it is almost like part of a transition. So when somebody overcomes a fear; when the ego loses its dominance, there is no doubt a sense of peace.

This is obvious as a general concept, although with drugs I think more variation is introduced, since the substances can be easily tampered with or even misused. And taking into account the person's current physiology and health, the drug would probably be experienced quite differently also. Because of the artificial nature of the given substance, there is a probable chance that a large portion of the brain's processing is over-emphasized or even quantized to the point where other sections remain unaffected, and thus still in control. Whereas, I'm sure if somebody took up meditation, for example, the brain physiology would transform naturally and thus be more stable and longer lasting.

In addition, it is helpful to remember that when speaking of attaining a clear mind, or getting "high", drugs are not as authentic as something like meditation, since drugs can produce side-effects that might be confused with having some relationship with "ego death". But actually they're due to the type of substance and the margin of dose. Hallucinating and seeing pixies dancing in your microwave is associated with neither ego-suppression nor peace, but they might be present simultaneously. You could even say that drinking alcohol suppresses the ego in some aspects, but it does not "induce euphoria" separately; if anything it suppresses other functions of the brain too, such as those that are more to do with intelligence and behavior rather than strictly the ego.

Overall, I hope this gives a hint of how many variables can come into play, while maintaining the fundamental concept of the ego being an amalgamation of animal tendencies that obstruct inner happiness. It is an intrinsic fact that joy remains and/or increases as these tendencies are diminished. Fear and terror are to be expected, but if they are genuine, they can be overcome through learning and growth. There is really no reason to believe that euphoria/joy (etc.) are separately induced, however I think it is more the case that people who are not ready for such a confrontation will indeed have a terrifying experience, and it will have no long-term value (especially drugs).

I think the real problem is just seeing how this all works in concept, because obviously the "ego" is a metaphysical thing and not a specific part of the brain.

Ego death doesent sound good to me.

Originally Posted by JackALope2323

I can see why it's a good thing to experience, but I can also see why it's a good thing to maintain our individuality.

I think that the benefits of maintaining our individuality greatly exceed the benefits of achieving universal ego-death. Especially when the means to the universal ego-death involve forcing ego-death on all living things, in order to achieve universal utopia, whether people want it or not.

But, you know, that's just like, my opinion, man.

I have to agree with DuB, though. Correlation =/= Causation. Unfortunately, I think it would be very difficult to achieve scientific accuracy in an ego-death experiment to see if ego-death does indeed cause euphoria.

Even if it did, though, who would want to experience perpetual euphoria? Shit would get boring, after a while.

That's why you experience it for limited periods. I mean sure, during ego death you have little or no idea of individuality, but in general it doesn't remove your sense of individuality, rather you realize the connection between all people. In other words it's not the idea that we are litterally all one being, it's that all of the individualities are part of a whole, connected.

You don't have to be on drugs to experience ego death...ego death is anything where you place your attention on anything other than the I, me ( ego ).

People will hate you if you have a big ego..because you place yourself above all others.

I LIKE my individual consciousness. I LIKE all of the pain and the suffering and the misery that is caused because of individual consciousness, and the fact that we can't truly connect to one another because of our individual forms. Because, you know why? When we're all one, there's nothing good. In one, universal consciousness, there is no war, there is no famine, there is no disease. But in one, universal consciousness, there are no parties, no friends, no adventures.

I understand what your saying. Sounds like your afraid of being alone, but IMHO ego is the being alone part. You can still have parties, fun and friends while being humble and meek. Being humble and meek is killing the ego. Why couldn't you still have fun with friends and have parties in a universal consciousness? If anything it's better because you can manifest and do anything you want, and not to mention experience bliss.

I see that I'm not the only one that gets confused what all these terms mean. It looks like everyone has their own personal definitions.

Originally Posted by C-Fonz

Is it not ironic that it's your ego that drove you to come onto dreamviews and rant about ego-death?

You don't understand because you have never experienced it.

This thread (or at least the first post) is pure stupidity, and I agree completely with C-Fonz. You're pathetic for ranting about how you are too dim witted to understand ego death. It's just really sad that you have to rant and get mad over something that you will probably never understand, yet it's a second nature for some of us. So either go out and experience it for yourself, or be quiet and keep your garbage to yourself. Okay? I'm not saying you have to do them all the time, but just one strong trip or ego trip would significantly help you understand. If you end up not liking it, than just stick with meditation, or.. you can just go back to being a biological robot letting life pass you by. You can totally achieve ego death with meditation, it just takes time, motivation, and an open mind. Ego death can be a form of many pure emotions, as well as a jumble of emotions and sometimes some profound thoughts and breakthroughs. I've experienced pure euphoria, absolute fright, extreme states of calmness, and the feeling you are one with the cosmos / everything in existence... I've even reverted back to nothing, I was non-existent for a good period of one of my first encounters with ego death. All of those were experienced 'out of body' as well. Almost every time I've come back from an ego trip, I've felt like I've been born again, and my brain has been wiped of all the worldly shit that has built up in my head from being around.. modern day society. I'll also feel like the shit most people care about is completely pointless (especially from shrooms!), and they literally seem like robots going through life never really wanting to understand what is really happening outside the bullshit they work their whole lives for, and for nothing. I just don't see why people would want to work at a desk 'till they are 60, then retire and do nothing until they die. Just seems like they are wasting their true spiritual and physical life force, instead of actually experiencing what I'd consider the real meaning of life. Understanding and having first hand involvement with emotions and visions, and knowing what different realities and dimensions feel like; and most of the stuff I and other lucid humans have lived through, the majority of people can't even comprehend even if they tried their entire life. Unlucid, robots - they are literally dreaming in their waking state. Basically, it's exactly like the main concept of The Matrix. The mass of the people are unaware they are literally dreaming, but the select few who want to and pursue lucidity are awoken and they are brought into the real world, and just like what I was just talking about, the "people" in The Matrix wouldn't be able to comprehend or accept it's real unless they were to see or experience it for themselves.

It's a shame most Psychedelics are illegal or border line illegal. Just think, if modern society encouraged people to infrequently or frequently take mind altering substances, there would be more lucid people aware of their real surroundings.. than the there would be robots. We would advance faster and focus on the real things that truly matter. Maybe researching to understand the full human brain, and what it is really capable of. We would also have more abstract thinkers walking around. We would just have a more united world. Or hell, even if Psychedelics and other Psychoactives were only used by Psychologists to treat and help patients with different mental stresses and disorders, it would still make a huge impact. Just like the doctor in California who treats and helps his patients get over certain phobias, traumas, or mental stresses... and he does all this by giving them a decent to strong dose of LSD and working out and releasing tension on his or her mind by talking them through it. One afternoon trip or ego death with that doctor is probably more helpful then several consecutive years of "therapy".

Just my two cents. I really think you should find and take some mind altering substances, maybe change your attitude a little while you're at it? Just go down to the nearest smoke shop and purchase some Salvia if you don't want anything illegal. Then smoke it and you'll know exactly what being ripped from your physical body feels like. The first few trips will probably be full of panic and a range of different emotions, which is normal for your first instant ego trip. But just meditate some, take charge of your emotions, and keep trying. You'll get a peaceful ego death soon enough, and if not, either just stick with meditation or move on to the more spiritual substances. Especially the organics like Shrooms. I've had extremely profound trips and revelations from shrooms. It's the sole reason I can't stand killing any living thing including plants. I think everyone should do both Shrooms and LSD at least once in a warm environment before they die and move on. Quite honestly I think mind altering substances strongly prepare you / your soul for the afterlife, because I'm sure dying and going straight to the spiritual realm / dimension won't be a walk in the park. It's sounds like a lot of confusion and panic if you never really prepared yourself. Open up your mind, keep your mind open, get in the right mood, and take some Psychedelics to be positively changed for the rest of your life. Trust me. At the very least you'll see things from a newer and happier perspective..

Originally Posted by C-Fonz

Is it not ironic that it's your ego that drove you to come onto dreamviews and rant about ego-death?

You don't understand because you have never experienced it.

This thread (or at least the first post) is pure stupidity, and I agree completely with C-Fonz. You sound extremely pathetic for ranting about how you are too dim witted to understand ego death. It's just really sad that you have to rant and get mad over something that you will probably never understand, yet it's a second nature for some of us. So either go out and experience it for yourself, or be quiet and keep your garbage to yourself. Okay? I'm not saying you have to do them all the time, but just one strong trip or ego trip would significantly help you understand. If you end up not liking it, than just stick with meditation, or.. you can just go back to being a biological robot letting life pass you by. You can totally achieve ego death with meditation, it just takes time, motivation, and an open mind. Ego death can be a form of many pure emotions, as well as a jumble of emotions and sometimes some profound thoughts and breakthroughs. I've experienced pure euphoria, absolute fright, extreme states of calmness, and the feeling you are one with the cosmos / everything in existence... I've even reverted back to nothing, I was non-existent for a good period of one of my first encounters with ego death. All of those were experienced 'out of body' as well. Almost every time I've come back from an ego trip, I've felt like I've been born again, and my brain has been wiped of all the worldly shit that has built up in my head from being around.. modern day society. I'll also feel like the shit most people care about is completely pointless (especially from shrooms!), and they literally seem like robots going through life never really wanting to understand what is really happening outside the bullshit they work their whole lives for, and for nothing. I just don't see why people would want to work at a desk 'till they are 60, then retire and do nothing until they die. Just seems like they are wasting their true spiritual and physical life force, instead of actually experiencing what I'd consider the real meaning of life. Understanding and having first hand involvement with emotions and visions, and knowing what different realities and dimensions feel like; and most of the stuff I and other lucid humans have lived through, the majority of people can't even comprehend even if they tried their entire life. Unlucid, robots - they are literally dreaming in their waking state. Basically, it's exactly like the main concept of The Matrix. The mass of the people are unaware they are literally dreaming, but the select few who want to and pursue lucidity are awoken and they are brought into the real world, and just like what I was just talking about, the "people" in The Matrix wouldn't be able to comprehend or accept it's real unless they were to see or experience it for themselves.

It's a shame most Psychedelics are illegal or border line illegal. Just think, if modern society encouraged people to infrequently or frequently take mind altering substances, there would be more lucid people aware of their real surroundings.. than the there would be robots. We would advance faster and focus on the real things that truly matter. Maybe researching to understand the full human brain, and what it is really capable of. We would also have more abstract thinkers walking around. We would just have a more united world. Or hell, even if Psychedelics and other Psychoactives were only used by Psychologists to treat and help patients with different mental stresses and disorders, it would still make a huge impact. Just like the doctor in California who treats and helps his patients get over certain phobias, traumas, or mental stresses... and he does all this by giving them a decent to strong dose of LSD and working out and releasing tension on his or her mind by talking them through it. One afternoon trip or ego death with that doctor is probably more helpful then several consecutive years of "therapy".

Just my two cents. I really think you should find and take some mind altering substances, maybe change your attitude a little while you're at it? Just go down to the nearest smoke shop and purchase some Salvia if you don't want anything illegal. Then smoke it and you'll know exactly what being ripped from your physical body feels like. The first few trips will probably be full of panic and a range of different emotions, which is normal for your first instant ego trip. But just meditate some, take charge of your emotions, and keep trying. You'll get a peaceful ego death soon enough, and if not, either just stick with meditation or move on to the more spiritual substances. Especially the organics like Shrooms. I've had extremely profound trips and revelations from shrooms. It's the sole reason I can't stand killing any living thing including plants. I think everyone should do both Shrooms and LSD at least once in a warm environment before they die and move on. Quite honestly I think mind altering substances strongly prepare you / your soul for the afterlife, because I'm sure dying and going straight to the spiritual realm / dimension won't be a walk in the park. It's sounds like a lot of confusion and panic if you never really prepared yourself. Open up your mind, keep your mind open, get in the right mood, and take some Psychedelics to be positively changed for the rest of your life. Trust me. At the very least you'll see things from a newer and happier perspective..

Promoting drug use is not a wise thing, Motumz. You don't need to try a psychedelic substance to understand what it means, and better yet, you don't need whole societies to be doing drugs so they can collectively be more aware and intelligent. The point is they are not necessary; that meditation is the far more superior alternative for a clear mind. It may be arduous at times, but if it is done properly and consistently there is no down side, and no negative side-effect on one's health. It is also completely free, legal and more authentic.

Originally Posted by Majestic

People will hate you if you have a big ego..because you place yourself above all others.

'People will hate you' not strictly because you might have a 'big ego', but because all people inherently have egos. Otherwise, what's the problem? If they had a problem with your so called 'big ego', it's because they felt inferior, angry or even humiliated by it, which are consequences of their own egoic position(s). If they didn't have a 'big ego', then they wouldn't be comparing themselves or complaining. At best, the solution is that we can choose not to prefer that 'big ego' stance, but we do not have to hate it.

I understand what your saying. Sounds like your afraid of being alone, but IMHO ego is the being alone part. You can still have parties, fun and friends while being humble and meek. Being humble and meek is killing the ego. Why couldn't you still have fun with friends and have parties in a universal consciousness? If anything it's better because you can manifest and do anything you want, and not to mention experience bliss.

Experiencing bliss doesn't mean that you can't do anything you want or have fun, friends and parties, it means that "doing what you want" and "having fun, friends and parties" are no longer relevant. Similar to the OP, this is a mixture of two different contexts. Another comparable misconception: One can't say that "being happy all the time" will be boring without having a regular drama; no. "Being happy all the time" is exactly what it means; we simply lack the familiarity and the humility to trust it.

Originally Posted by really

Promoting drug use is not a wise thing, Motumz. You don't need to try a psychedelic substance to understand what it means, and better yet, you don't need whole societies to be doing drugs so they can collectively be more aware and intelligent. The point is they are not necessary; that meditation is the far more superior alternative for a clear mind. It may be arduous at times, but if it is done properly and consistently there is no down side, and no negative side-effect on one's health. It is also completely free, legal and more authentic.

I've never had a bad side effect from any drug lol... Except smoking shitty weed and I'll be a bit unmotivated to hang out with friends for a couple hours. That's about it.

And no, society won't be any more motivated to meditate then they will be to try Psychedelics. And I don't know why you were against my point. I clearly stated you could either meditate or try Psychedelics if you're up to it. Whatever floats your boat. I highly doubt the OP is going to master meditation, you and I both know how much time you have to put into it. It's worth it, but some people just aren't up to it. That's why I offered for him to try Salvia. It's easy to get, easy to smoke, and you have to do virtually nothing to achieve ego death. He seems like a lazy asshole, so I offered him the easy way to achieve it. And honestly, I'd get a kick out of him getting fucked up the ass by Salvia. The more I read his post, the stupider he sounds. He acts like everyone is forcing him to get to ego death levels. No one is forcing you to do anything, JackALope2323, you're just pissed the only cool thing you've ever experienced is masturbation. If that. The only person who needs to put a pistol to their head, is you. Might sound harsh, but smartasses like you need to crawl in a hole, and stay there.

Oh my god, ego death is the best.

lol, leave him be.

Ok if you see the benefits of meditation then yeah, that's fine. I was mainly referring to your second and final paragraphs, but anyway... Not that society would suddenly prefer meditation either. Just that it was more 'natural', if you know what I mean.

To be honest, I really haven't read or heard much about 'Salvia', can you tell me about it? It's to be smoked?