Thread: Religion

Originally posted by Lucius
Evangel,

I respect your views on all this, but I would like to know, what do you say if I ask you, are the religions that don't see Jezus Christ as the savior wrong then? Like Buddism/Hinduism/Pagan Believes/Islam. Are they wrong as in, they are doing the religiously spoken wrong thing? I'm not saying you woudl see them as \"wrong\" entirely, but just, wrong as in its not the correct thing to not believe in Christ as the savior.

If so, then please anwer this question, if Jezus Christ is the savior of entire men kind and he is for all, then why, was he never truely introduced in the entire east, why did other religions start to exist in the east(even before christianity), why did God not interfere with that, surely he would not like to see 60% of the earths population be doomed?

Why did other religons exist before christianity anyway? Were they all false? Im not attacking you or anything, nor am I trying to trow you of balance or trying to win a convo or somethign, Im just curious what you think about that. Why did God even allow other religions that were diffirent from th christian ideas, such as reincarnation?

That too, makes me think, that there is no such thing as an absolute RELIGIOUS truth.

If you don't mind Evangel I like to take a crack at this one.

A recent tabulation concluded that there are 10 main religions and some 10,000 sects. Of these, some 6,000 exsist in Africia, 1,200 in the United States, and hundreds in other lands.

Many factors have contributed to the development of new religious groups. Some have said that the various religions all represent different ways of presenting religious truth. But a compariosn of their teachings and practices with what the Bible indicates, rather, that the diversity of religions is because people have become followers of men instead of listening to GOD. It is noteworhty that, to a large extent, teachings they hold in common, but that differ from the Bible, originated in acient Babylon.

You may ask yourself. Who is the instigator of such religious confusion?" The Bible identifies Satan the Devil as "the god of this system of things" It warns us that "the things which the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons, and not to God." So No this is not something that GOD has put upon people this is Satan's doing. And I don't recall any other religions exsisting before christianity. And I believe he allows these things to come about because God wants only his true followers the rightous individuals, thus those who are so easily influenced by Satan and follow his works will be delt with. We all have free will and this will never be taken away from us but its just like making a new friend that friend has to earn your Trust you just don't get it at the begining. You gotta prove yourself. Evangel may have some different viewpoints im not sure. But I had put my answers down because thats such a brilliant question Lucius.

Originally posted by Lucius

If so, then please anwer this question, if Jezus Christ is the savior of entire men kind and he is for all, then why, was he never truely introduced in the entire east, why did other religions start to exist in the east(even before christianity), why did God not interfere with that, surely he would not like to see 60% of the earths population be doomed?

Why did other religons exist before christianity anyway? Were they all false? Im not attacking you or anything, nor am I trying to trow you of balance or trying to win a convo or somethign, Im just curious what you think about that. Why did God even allow other religions that were diffirent from th christian ideas, such as reincarnation?

That too, makes me think, that there is no such thing as an absolute RELIGIOUS truth.

That's a lot of Qs there...
Firstly,about your last statement: You said you believe in reincarnation, if I'm correct? Isn't that an ABSOLUTE TRUTH? In other words the statement "Reincarnation is a reality" is either absolutely true or it's not true...
The Bible does make reference to Christ as the savior "of the world" but I believe that in the context, the writer is speaking about salvation going out (through the good news of Christ's sacrifice) to all of the nations (not just Jewish people any longer). So, in essence, Christ is not the savior of the "whole world" (he does not save everyone -only those whom he sovereignly chooses), but he is the savior of people from all different nations under the New Covenant (New Testament).
The idea that God needs to be "fair" by "introducing" himself to the whole world brings up the idea of fairness and justice. God "owes" nothing to no one. We sometimes get the idea that because he is love, he somehow "owes" certain things to us. If he saves ANYONE, it is by his mercy and love, governed by his will. Furthermore, there is virtually no nation existing now, that has not had Christian missionaries sharing the gospel (the revelation of God and his redemptive plan in his Word). In spite of this, people still reject God. Jesus spoke about people who demanded signs and miracles (as proof that he was God), yet even after he performed them, MANY people still rejected him. So... the question arises of how much proof is needed for people to believe? Christ is still rejected, no matter how much proof is given to us. It is only by his spirit that we are enabled to believe.
I believe that God is sovereign, meaning that he has absolute control over every neutron, proton, hair, grain of sand, etc, (thus there's no room for chance... ) To say that God surely wouldn't want 60% of the earth to be doomed/damned/condemned kind of assumes that he is not in control... To me, God does not owe anyone salvation, much less air to breathe, food to eat, etc. So to me, it is more puzzling why he has decided to offer salvation to anyone at all, much less a buncha foo's (yes, I refer to myself, and other Christians ) Scripture says that God has chosen the lowly and foolish things in order that the "wisdom of the wise would be confounded."
If you're speaking in terms of "organized religion", yes there were and have been many other religions before Christianity, however, the Biblical account, starting with Genesis deals with mankind and his plight from the beginning of time as we know it (starting with Adam) The geneology and history recorded is that of the Jewish people (Israel) who, from the beginning of their relationship to God (which began with Adam) always have the focal point of sin and man's need for a Savior. So... my point is that the Christ is and has always been the focal point of both Judaism (which is, according to the Biblical account, the oldest religion, -though it was not identified as such by mankind until recordable rites, laws, traditions, and holidays, etc. were introduced) and Christianity
...whew. mouthful. I don't have answers to all questions, but I do believe that those who seek answers and do so with an heart that is opened to the work of God's Spirit will receive not only the answers they seek, but much more than that... I enjoy this kind of interaction (as you can probably tell), and never accuse people of personal attack, unless they are blatantly attacking me, or that which I love the most, have at it! Heat is good for mental and spiritual stimulation!

Wow, alot of things to say indeed.

I believe in reincarnation yes..an absolute truth? Nah, I see things more as a PERSONAL truth, it apears as the absolute truth for me, but that does not mean that it IS the absolute truth persay. The absolute truth is either inexistant or unknown I think, but there are many personal truths.

But then yes what might worry one is that either that personal truth is true or not..I mean, there is either reincarnation or there is not, strange isnt it, one of us is going to be wrong in the end..and both of us are probally convinced of their religion.

And about the oldest religion..Im not sure but I recall Hinduism as being the oldest, currently still largely existing, religion, not sure about that though. But its pretty old for sure, and I think it was probally there in the east before any christian or christian related messengers were ever in the east.

To reply to what shadow said, that satan would have brought this religions on the earth seems unlikely to me. If satan would bring a religion certainly it would be something like satanism, like the existing satanism(wich is stupid btw). And not a peaceful religion like hinduism or buddhism.

And the reason why many people (in the east for example) still are rejecting christ, is because they already found their own religions, personal truths, and personal proof. Its same with a christian, he would never accept the essence of buddha and the bodies of buddha, or the gods of the hindu, or the idea of reincarnation and so on.

I still keep to my point that no religion(exept evil ones like satanism) is doing somethign spiritualy speaking "wrong" or "incorrect" thing.
Its just for your personal growth and developement as a person, and as a soul.

Aslo, I know you cant answer all question, but even before the nowdays religions, even the old ones like the jews or the hindus, there were other religions. What about the religions of ancient civilisations, or the greek believe in the gods(zeus,apollo,mars,jupiter etc), or the egyptian believe (ra,horus,anubis etc) in their gods? More question that make me bring to the fact that there is no absolute religious truth that is right persay

Wow Evangel that was a mouthful, but I must admit it was perfectly stated. You've pointed out so many great and inspiring aspects on this issue. Just wanted to point that out. See ya around.

Unlike you, the original poster, I feel religion and belief are not the same thing. Belief is dynamic, while religion tries to stiffle the change. The whole concept of religion is to accept a suggestion as being a fact, without question it's validity. Belief is what you know, religion is what you want to believe.

Originally posted by Lucius

1)strange isnt it, one of us is going to be wrong in the end..and both of us are probally convinced of their religion. *

2)To reply to what shadow said, that satan would have brought this religions on the earth seems unlikely to me. If satan would bring a religion certainly it would be something like satanism, like the existing satanism(wich is stupid btw). And not a peaceful religion like hinduism or buddhism. *

3)And the reason why many people (in the east for example) still are rejecting christ, is because they already found their own religions, personal truths, and personal proof. *

Strange indeed. Someday, these mysteries will be revealed to all.

Actually, Satan is known as the "father of lies," so it would behoove him/them to be as subtle as possible. In other words, he's no dummy who's going to use blatant and obvious techniques. The scriptures say that he often appears to people as "an angel of light," and that he has been given dominion of the earth by God (except over God's chosen people). Thus, it would, in my book, also behoove him(them) to create as many religions and systems of thought as possible that would distract people from the Truth or from even believing that there is a Truth in any absolute sense. Satan is also known as a master of confusion, chaos, and destruction who has been demoted from heaven because of his pride and desire to "dethrone" God and take as many along to hell with him.

The trend I see these days is for people to reject Christ, not because of religion so much as anti-religion (humanism or atheists/ultra agnostic or intellectual "skeptics" who question everything).

"The trend I see these days is for people to reject Christ, not because of religion so much as anti-religion (humanism or atheists/ultra agnostic or intellectual "skeptics" who question everything)."

True, its a shame. I myself reject christ, well reject, christian would say I "reject" him because I dont see him as the savior. But I do this because I found my hail in another religion. But do you truely think then, that satan unleashed all those other religions among the earth?

I dont joke about satan, because I know that many people seriously see him as the cause of many trouble..but the way I see, the people bring the trouble on themselves, their own negativity is coming back to them.

I dont have much other things to say right now..you gave me alot enlighting information about how christians think, its not the way I think of course..

But Evangel,
But really, I think you are one of the good christians out there, yes I feel like christians are forgetting the true concept of christianity and religion in general..you might not believe what I say and disagree with me, but you believe you are sinful and can only be saved by Christ, well, I'll speak of my religious view..you are a respectable person that is actually good for the planet, dont ever give up your religion, you are passionate, that is very admirable, and many people can learn from that, from all religions. And especially non religious people.
With people ike you I kinda forget about religious diffirences, and just see us as the religious people, lets never lose our religion, and stand up against the boring,rational,atheitistic views of nowadays! (no offense against those people, but we have to compensate ^_^)

Keep it up! ^_^

i joke about satan cause hes a loser who has no power over me cause i know where its at...hes stuck and im not so ppppbbbbblllltttt!

Don't underestimate the subtlety....

Originally posted by Lucius

But do you truely think then, that satan unleashed all those other religions among the earth?

But Evangel,
... you are passionate, that is very admirable, and many people can learn from that, from all religions. And especially non religious people.
Keep it up!

Thanks.
I think that the majority of people (including those Christians who seem to see everything bad as a "satanic attack" ) bring trouble upon themselves by their own sin and ignorance most of the time (I also speak from my own experience ). Satan doesn't even have to worry about those kinds of people because they take care of themselves... To me, satan is very real, although he/they do not have the authority or influence that many Christians suppose. His role in scripture is generally to "deceive the nations," and to attack and accuse those who claim affinity to Christ. Also, satan is often used as a generric term which means "the enemy/accuser/tempter of mankind" or something similar... all those notions of creatures/demons with horns and such are cartoonish to me. In my experience, satan is especially effective in finding weakness in the area of physical lust, guilt, anger, and fear -all of which are intertwined in the human psyche.

Speaking of passionate... Though I have not seen it yet, I have heard enough good reviews from reputable Christians to believe that The Passion of Christ will be an accurate depiction and entertaining movie, so I encourage those skeptics who are not so willing to pick up the Bible to at least go and see this movie! From what I hear, it is a very passionate and explicit look at the pinnacle of Christ's life on earth.

1st John Ch. 1
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. We write this to make our joy complete.
Walking in the light
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives."

:yumdumdoodledum:

There ^_^ Religious convo can be nice when you are talking to the right person. Generally its hard to talk about religion because...well I dont know lol, people just are feeling a little hostile alot, hostile convo, even the slightest just sucks.

If anybody, or you, have any more religious questions or subjects to talk about its fine with me, as long as it doesnt get hostile or unfriendly ^_^

A lot of times I think that people make wild claims, criticisms, or arguments without knowing enough to back up their claims... (or maybe they know a lot, but are just very emotional about it) but I guess that's prolly true of any controversial topic. I think controversy's good, as long as you enter into it with a logical stance and a mind that's willing to learn. If it's just going to be a bunch of emotional lambasting, things usually get ugly real fast. I'm curious to hear more about what people think about cults, or churches/organizations with cult-like practices... and if anyone knows more about Native American or Aborginal groups that have a high regard for dreaming...

Cults?

It depends of course..most cults arnt to pretty..sects..

The thing I dont like about most cults is that people blindly follow a leader who gives empty promises. Also the people in cults are alot of the times obsessed with their religion, which is not a good thing.

I dont say cults are evil/wrong/idiotic persay, but I just think they are doing some things in the wrong way, alot of them at least, probally not all of them.

There are probally culs are over the place, of existing religions and of new religions. Most of these cults are probally a bit messed up, I mean the things some people do for some leader its just insane, you dont blindly follow a person, especially not somebody who claims to be superior and a direct messenger from whatever gods or god the cult worships, those sect leaders are just as corrupt as it gets most of the time, bleh

Follow your own heart, not somebody elses

Originally posted by Lucius

Follow your own heart, not somebody elses

If I followed my own heart, I'd be a greedy, self-seeking, humanistic, womanizing sumbi***
soooo.. that's why I try to follow Christ's heart -the heart of mercy, peace, justice, faith, and humility... among many other things, of course.

Originally posted by evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(evangel)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-Lucius

Follow your own heart, not somebody elses

If I followed my own heart, I'd be a greedy, self-seeking, humanistic, womanizing sumbi***
soooo.. that's why I try to follow Christ's heart -the heart of mercy, peace, justice, faith, and humility... among many other things, of course. [/b]

do you know sigmund freud's theory? if not you should read a little i like the way he proposes the id, ego, and superego... http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/freud.html just something to think about.

Evangel,

Basicly you say your own heart disagrees with the heart of Christ? Really, I dont think you would be a greedy etc person. I follow my own heart for a big part, and the heart of the everything, the cosmos. I learn from The Buddhas ideas, but I dont follow his heart. Im not greedy, I am a-materialistic..Im not a womanizer lol(that figurers) and I am in love with one person and I am forever loyal and I dont even enjoy sex with others, my own heart follows peace,compassion and mercy already, because I know thats the right thing to do. And I dont really follow Christ..

Really, I dont think humans are "sinful" by anture persay, as every single energy in this cosmos its neutral, but it can either turn positive or negative.

I have studied some of the "Fathers" of modern psychology (Freud, Jung, Piaget, etc.) and see that they have much to contribute in the areas of theory like other scientists...

I believe that by nature, we are selfish (as opposed to selfless) You don't have to teach someone to become selfish, or how to lie, or how to be greedy... we all learn those things by default on our own. We do find that selflessness, on the other hand is something that takes more than a lifetime to realize. I go even further and say that because of this selfishness that is ingrained in our very being, something supernatural needs to happen. Christ describes this as being reborn or "born again" which is something that can only happen by the enabling or "quickening" of the Spirit of God. Paul even goes further and describes our spiritual condition as "dead" and unable to seek true good (the kind of good that God sees as perfect and unblemished by man's sin) without the redemptive value of Christ's blood. In other words, Jesus has become a mediator for mankind by his perfection, and thus is the only one ABLE to pay the price for the depth of sin. If my heart is in any way "good," it is only becasue God's Spirit is teaching me and conforming me to the perfection of Christ. The book of Romans goes into this concept in depth, but I think it's summed up pretty well by Paul in Romans Ch. 3... ("he's quoting the Old Testament in the beginning)
10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
together they have become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is upon their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be both just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Christ Jesus."

Hats off to Lucius and Evangel for keeping this a civil and intelligent conversation.

Not to put words in your mouths, but I'm stating this as a lead in to another question:
The basic difference between Lucius and Evangels opinions are that Lucius feels your spirit can evolve and eventually escape this worldly existance(samsara) and rejoin the core by your own efforts.

Evangel believes that salvation is a gift and that there is no action you can take by yourself in order to earn it, and that there is no way by your efforts you can be saved.

Now the question for those of you of other faiths, I am especially interested in the beliefs of our Muslim and Jewish friends.

Are there any other religions out there besides Christianity that believe salvation is a gift from God that cannot be earned? Is this unique to Christianity and the major thing that seperates it from all other religions?

Originally posted by Seeker
Hats off to Lucius and Evangel for keeping this a civil and intelligent conversation.

Not to put words in your mouths, but I'm stating this as a lead in to another question:
The basic difference between Lucius and Evangels opinions are that Lucius feels your spirit can evolve and eventually escape this worldly existance(samsara) and rejoin the core by your own efforts.

Evangel believes that salvation is a gift and that there is no action you can take by yourself in order to earn it, and that there is no way by your efforts you can be saved.

Now the question for those of you of other faiths, I am especially interested in the beliefs of our Muslim and Jewish friends.

Are there any other religions out there besides Christianity that believe salvation is a gift from God that cannot be earned? *Is this unique to Christianity and the major thing that seperates it from all other religions?

Yeah I agree. I like the way they handled this, alot better than I have. And I would like to here more individuals of Christianity thoughts as well not desively of Christendom. Great going Guys

Yeah, I like this convo too, I love to hear about other peoples religious opinions regardless of what I feel about them, as long as it doesnt get hostile, and tis not ^_^

So yeah I would like to hear more from others aswell, or a new question or going on the current subject, its a nice convo so far ^_^

I see no difference in either Lucius' or Evangel's arguments,
just they each practice different 'rituals'

both are idols--all egos are idols-- all self is God...but!

for one person to fit all of God inside of them, tehy must be clear of ALL
ritual, for God is none of these, even through all rituals are contained in God.

The empty heart the neutral mind the christ spirit
the boddhisitava those who wander who are, indeed, not lost

there are a million different ways to transcend
but the epic hero is so rarified, so unique and unwielding
yet it is as though by following fate, the hero in fact
wields to everything...
have no hope for yourself, and boundless love for all creation and void
and hope will be your very footsteps, love will be your life
because you DO love
instead of worshiping self first and THEN loving

pull the splinter from your eye first

It's impossible to comment or argue with someone whose faith and understanding is so drenched in ambiguity...

Well, nobody has stepped up to answer my question. What do you think Evangel?

As far as I know, Christianity is the only religion that teaches salvation as a free gift instead of something that must be earned.

Do you know of any others claiming this? I cannot think of one!

As far as I know, this is unique to Christianity... however, there are still many self-professed Christians who also do not understand the concept and doctrine of grace (It is very difficult to accept because there is something innate in humans that makes us want to earn merit or good standing on our own). I happen to have a love for this doctrine :bravo: above all other Biblical doctrine because it speaks so strongly of God's mercy, justice, and most of all his agape love. There is NOTHING we can do that is good! This is also an obvious love of Paul's because he mentions it and expounds on it so much in his letters to the early Christians. I think that Muslims and Jews also have an understanding of this, but I'd venture to say that most Jews, Muslims and Christians alike all still fall under the misleading idea that we are able to do good or earn some sort of righteousness by following a moral law, code, or religious tenets. To me, this is the beauty of Christ - that salvation is given is a free gift... to those who would believe. The following sums up the concept of grace, I think...
Grace - receiving favor/gifts where none is deserved
Justice - receiving what is deserved
Romans 5:18-21
"Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

If salvation is free in christianity then why do some people lock themselves away in monasteries/convents, spending their lives in prayer? It seems pointless if theres no need, just a thought.