Thread: Religion

you're provoking a flame war...

Originally posted by AnOmnipresenceInTheWired+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AnOmnipresenceInTheWired)</div>

I put my faith in the only thing I can, Humanity... [/b]

humanity. is. sick.


period.

<!--QuoteBegin-AnOmnipresenceInTheWired
The world to me is perfect...

same here....

Originally posted by ShadowNightWing
Some very interesting points here very very interesting. I come to the conclusion that Im looking forward to challenging those non-believers in an all out debate. Whos Game? (Speaking to the true Non-God Believers.)

Let me first begin by telling everyone I'm sorry for a lot of my previous posts.

I'm not 'game' to this. You cannot change someone to become like you, merely through words and arguements, especially on something so deeply ingrained upon themselves such as their personal faith. You truely have to make the choice for yourself. I've finally realized this. It'd be pointless, save for another angry debate, which would lead nowhere. Besides, what does it matter if Person A doesn't believe what you believe? It's their loss? Who cares...

I was just thinking about something, religions are supposed to bring people together whether it's from love or worship or whatever. But look at this post, seven pages of posts about what is and isn't, who gods is and other disagreements. Was this the purpose for religion? And the world is worse, people are running around killing each other over a few buildings and the religious aspects. If the purpose of religions was to bring people together, then why are more people dying every day?

I'm still wondering about how there can be more than one "True" religion. I don't know, maybe I'm just thinking too analytically because last I time I checked, when one thing is true, everything else should be false (I know this is not true for all things, I'm just trying to make a point).

And about the order of existence thing, what if there was no god? Then he wouldn't have to create himself. If it's something that a person can't comprehend, then why not try to find a different solution? Of course this leads to a lot of other questions, like where did matter come from and how the universe began. This of course leads back to the question of how can something come from nothing. But now it's science theory instead theological theory. This way you don't need to drag religion in when you are debating.

Please don't take this as an invitation to start a debate or a flame war.

Originally posted by theroguechemist
I'm not 'game' to this. You cannot change someone to become like you, merely through words and arguements, especially on something so deeply ingrained upon themselves such as their personal faith. You truely have to make the choice for yourself. I've finally realized this. It'd be pointless, save for another angry debate, which would lead nowhere. Besides, what does it matter if Person A doesn't believe what you believe? It's their loss? Who cares...

Im not trying to get anyone to become like me. I am just as all of use are unique individuals, no two are totally alike. But It is also written that this word of the Kingdom will be preached to all Man-Kind. So be it.. Anyway if everyone so sted-fast on their own beliefs whats a little debate going to hurt. What are you afraid of?

nutthin... I could take the heat. can u?

DUN DUN DUNNNNNNN *enter dramatic music*

Originally posted by theroguechemist
nutthin... I could take the heat. can u?

Actaully I can take the heat also Wanna kick it A notch? Okay I'll start things.

Now is it that yo do not believe that there is a Creator, or is it that you have seen so much hypocrisy in the churches that you have no faith in what they teach? If for any reason its the latter, There is a great difference between the churches of Christendom and true Christianity. It is true that Christendom has oppressed people, but Christianity has not. Christendom has failed to provide moral direction God's word, the Bible , does not support Christendom. On the contrary, it condemns Christendom.

Or if you only believe in what you can see then thats a very comman view point, because we live in a society that emphasizes on material possessions. But I know you are a person who likes to be realistic right?

The Floor is yours buddy. No converting Just conversation.

I haven't read your entire post, but... Shouldn't there be a new thread for this?

As a kid, growing up, religion never really clicked for me. I suppose that started it all, or at least, put me at a distinctive advantage in crossing over.

I believe that there is no Creator and no Christian God (or any God(s)). I suppose you said it right in that I'm much of a realist. I search for truth, and factual or probable evidence to support things that I observe in this world. Sadly, my belief in Atheism isn't grounded on strong evidence. Only probable. And at that, weak evidence.

There's always the always-evident observation that, if God were real (speaking to the Christian God, that is), then why hasn't he shown himself? Why, when I, you, when anyone, prays, why doesn't He answer? "Give me a sign..." I never found any signs...

When a child is born, they are born an Atheist. If you think about this you will realize it is true. As an infant or todler, they have no purpose for religion, yet it is forced upon them by their parents and their friends they will soon come to meet. A lot of you may agree a child isn't mature enough to make educated decisions. They will usually take things in, especially if their most trusted people in the world, their parents, say it is True, and force it upon them.

After so many years, the child will never so much as question his/her faith. With so many years, They will have already taken religion as truth and cannot see anything as an alternative. Religion is part of the world. God is real. It's nice for a child, or anyone for that matter, to have God there, as an idea to fall back on when times are down. It's a nice light at the end of the tunnel. I've grown to perceive this deception, and I'm surprisingly ok with it.

The beliefs of an Atheist make perfect sense to me, much as Christianity (I'm assuming) makes perfect sense to you. I "know" I am right, just as you do too. The world, when taken at face value, makes so much sense without a God. I am an evolutionist, I believe in the Darwinian theories. When someone makes the claim that "How can something so complex as the eye be the result of evolution? No, it can't be. It has to be the work of a God.", I have not an arguement to combat that other than myself knowing how evolution works, and how it can spawn such complex organs as the [human] eye.

As you can see, I have very weak footholds on this. I cannot really explain it. I no longer wish for anyone to become Atheist, it's a choice for themselves.

---

Recently, however, I have began to ponder the universe, a multiverse, and "Why is matter?" It is a much more deeper question that mere "What is the purpose of life?" or something of that sort. Perceiving true nothingness is quite tickling to say the least. I once perceived, shortly, that there may be a devine intelligence of the entire... whatever-the-entire-multiverse-is-in. Maybe... I doubt it.. That's more of a belief.. Sounds a bit too much like another fad religion to me.

---

I haven't really go into anything too much; but, well, see, I'm gonna go to a friend's house now. So... Goodbye.

I've read your post and its extremely intersting to me, I Got a few questions I want to ask but the time is limited so I'll be back to this soon. See ya later buddy.

Originally posted by theroguechemist
agreed. that's what everyone uses as an arguement when they are confronted with a good atheistic arguement.

"good atheistic" hhmmmm. isn't that kind of oxymoronic? oh, and to NOT assume that there is still information that is too much for your brain in its current status to understand is also narrow minded. In OTHER words, if you think you know a lot, you're actually an ignoramus
So, the "excuse" used above (that some things are too much for us to comprehend) is closer to the truth than the assumption that we can know a lot (much less, ANYTHING AT ALL). -The more you know, the more you know you DON'T know...

science is only convenient for our present reality... In another 150 years or so (if we're still here), we'll probably be looking back at current scientific innovation the same way we now look back at medieval scientific explanations... not only will they be outdated, but we will once again wonder at our own ignorance... so to trust in "humanity" or "science" is to trust (put faith in)in something that will no longer exist (as we know it now) -very soon. Pretty futile stuff.

Oh... watch out for that New World Translation. The Watchtower is renowned for its biased methods of translation...

god is dead
and no one cares
if there is a hell
i'll see you there.

Originally posted by theroguechemist

There's always the always-evident observation that, if God were real (speaking to the Christian God, that is), then why hasn't he shown himself? Why, when I, you, when anyone, prays, why doesn't He answer? \"Give me a sign...\" I never found any signs...

It takes just as much faith to believe in science as it does to believe in God. In fact, I would say it's much EASIER in one sense to believe (trust) in science since science is mostly subject to proof of the five senses, whereas trusting in something (someone) you cannot see is very difficult.
As for the above questions: He HAS shown himself (in the life, death, and resurrection of Christ) God DOES answer prayer (of those who seek him in truth, humility, and in faith). And those who seek "signs" Jesus openly condemns. People that need miracles and signs do not put their faith in God... they put their faith in miracles and signs.

Matthew 12
The Sign of Jonah
"38Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."
39He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here. 42The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here."

I think religion is a good cruch for society because, like you sad, peaple are afraid of the wrath that would follow. So a lot of peaple try to be good. But religion has killed more peaple than any other thing on this planet- how ironic..
- every culture has come up with there own religion, even without outside influence because peaple need an answer for death. So how can any one person truely believe that their relion is "THE ONE".??
- Some say because it is all right there in the Bible. But ponder this. Every document including our own constitution (which has not been around very long) has changed over time. So over a couple thousand years how much must have the Bible Been tweeked a little here and a little there. Hence rendering it's subtacne qustionable
- Over all I think We would be a pretty well of society if we were to stick to the ten Commandments.

I have no idea what exactly has been going as I only read the posts on the last page but Im going to try and join this convo..if it doesnt turn into a bashing party lol

First of all, when I grew up I was never forced learning any religion, I grew up, and nobody EVER taught me anything about relgion, but still I turned religious..in a sense, but I did it on my own, I believe every child should be allowed to grow up and find religion on its own, though some basic ideas about respect,peace and harmony should be learned though, but not real absolute religions should be forced upon it.

The way I see it, there is no true religion, there is no absolute truth, but at the same time nobody is wrong. Religion, in my eyes, should not be a lifepath, simply a guide. It should be there to help you develope as a person and as a soul, of course I believe in reincarnation, and some do not..but I think souls need to undergo all sorts of lifes, situations and proces' to gain the nessasary wisdom. Religion is one of those things, it can be vital in a persons and souls growth.

I am not completely going to explain my views on how this universe, how the entire cosmos is build, and what "God" is, or if he even exists, unless somebody would like to know.

The main thing that ennoys me about some religions is that some people just takes their religion as the absolute truth and say all others are wrong, this is a little bit closed minded if I may say so. People have to learn that all religions hold some truth, that all can be right, that most religions plead for the same values such as peace,harmony, compassion and so on.

I think, that whatever you believe in, wether that is heaven and hell, reincarnation and the laws of the cosmos, or whatever other system, it does not truely matter what you believe..as long as you go trough life respecting it. Being kind to others, showing compassion, helping out others were you can, concerving the planet, upkeeping the balance and the peace..etc, you will be rewarded, but the truth is, one should not even want to be rewarded for such actions if you ask me.

I think a souls path is so endlessly long, and so is the process, one can never learn the things one must learn in one life, one must have experienced many things before a soul can exist on another plane, before it is worthy of ascending. There is so many to tell about all this...but we can endlessly talk about this aswell.

My general opinion is, that people, religious people should be more open minded about other religions, and about other people. I think all religions should show respect to all people. Religion is about spreading as much positive energy as possible, not about hating other people. Some religious people forget about that..

I would actually like to know, you christians here, what do you think about the gay bashing part of christianity? Do you think it is right? Will that bring the most peace and harmony? Wont it cause just hate between certain groups and individuals? (and Im not saying all christians do it, but some do)

I would just like to know, myself being gay as you know has nothing to do with it..just wish to know what you think.

Originally posted by Lucius
there is no absolute truth...

I would actually like to know, you christians here, what do you think about the gay bashing part of christianity? Do you think it is right? Will that bring the most peace and harmony? Wont it cause just hate between certain groups and individuals? (and Im not saying all christians do it, but some do)

This topic (absolute truth/relative truth) has come up several other times...
That claim is not logical

It is contradictory!

-->When someone says "there is no absolute truth," they are assuming that THAT STATEMENT is ABSOLUTELY TRUE, which cannot make any sense. Furthermore, when you state that there is no absolute truth, then go on to espouse a bunch of ideas and opinions (which you also assume or believe to be true), you render your own points moot.

As far as gay bashing, I believe it's wrong. I also believe homosexuality is a sin, but no greater or less than any other sin (which makes gays no worse or better off than any other human being.

"When someone says "there is no absolute truth," they are assuming that THAT STATEMENT is ABSOLUTELY TRUE, which cannot make any sense"

haha! LOL, yeah your right about that one lol, but I kinda mean there is no absolute religion that is right, while others are wrong.

What im trying to say is that all religions held some truth, and that you can learn from all of them. Also that people from a certain religion shouldnt see other people from other religions as "wrong" and saying they will not get the reward they get. I mean I believe in something christians dont, but I still think the (good) christians will be rewarded for their goodness, just like any other religious person that generates positive energy.

I mean really, is the other 60-80% of the population really doing somethign wrong then when it comes to religion? (this is a question to all people who do think all other religions are false/wrong)

And why was it that a certain religion was never completely introduced into the east/west, maybe because there is no absolute religion? Just a tought. I still think religion is just a guide line to help you grow as a person/soul, not to tell you how to live your life completely, though you should upkeep the values all religions stand for like compassion, peace, harmony,generousity, selflessnes, kindness etc.

Split 'gay' topic out into it's own. Sorry, but a little of the religion argument went with it.

The line was blurred in a couple of posts!

Here are Evangels comments just to keep it going:

Howetzer: Shouldn't the questions regarding gays be in a new thread or something?

Originally posted by Lucius

...I still think the (good) christians will be rewarded for their goodness, just like any other religious person that generates positive energy.

I mean really, is the other 60-80% of the population really doing somethign wrong then when it comes to religion? (this is a question to all people who do think all other religions are false/wrong)

That's where I see Christianity as different from other religions. I believe(as a Christian) that there is NOTHING I can do to earn merit (generate positive energy) in the eyes of God. Even my best most "pure" deeds are stained and blotted by my sin. It is only by the merit and sacrifice of Christ that one gains entrance into heaven. The only true good deeds then come afterwards as a natural outpouring of the Spirit of God that lives within someone -not as some sort of good/bad merit system. There is none who can do good apart from God because our selfishness (sin) is so deeply ingrained in our nature... That's the whole reasoning behind the need for Christ's sacrifice (which even many Christians have a hard time understanding) -that in HIS perfection, by HIS perfect blood, the sin of those who would believe is covered in his mercy and love... as fer the 60-80%... Actually, it would be more accurate to say 100% are doing something wrong and WE ALL need to ask for mercy and forgiveness... I don't like pointing fingers because I know I'm no better than anyone else, whether a pagan, Muslim, Christian, or otherwise. Religion can do nothing for you apart from faith in Christ (in other words I think a PERSONAL relationship with and knowledge of God is much more important to salvation than claiming affiliation to any church or religion). This probably does not answer your question exactly, but I still encourage anyone and all to seek God in brokenness who turns his ear to those who are lowly in spirit!

focus on something and it will keep occuring.
shift you focus and it will diminish slightly allowing room for something else.... don't think to much about one thing - make sure you see the larger picture at all times...

i used to make a lot of decisions that left a sickie feeling in my stomach - but i could get on with things .... later the consequences would always occur - I was a fool to think they never would.

now i never make decisions that leave an empty hollow or sickie feeling in my stomach.

thats not saying i don't take risks - because i do.

i've learnt to respect all others - to see things from as many points of view as possible. then you start to understand why people do what they do - even if it is mindless violence. but it's not mindless to them.

noone will ever understand anything completely but we can go a long way at attempting to.

just start becoming more aware and you'll see fantastic things - belief in religon or not.

why follow something that is dictated?

but as long as it is your choice then you should be at ease.

Originally posted by Maystar
focus on something and it will keep occuring.
shift you focus and it will diminish slightly allowing room for something else.... don't think to much about one thing - make sure you see the larger picture at all times...

i used to make a lot of decisions that left a sickie feeling in my stomach - but i could get on with things .... later the consequences would always occur - I was a fool to think they never would.

now i never make decisions that leave an empty hollow or sickie feeling in my stomach.

thats not saying i don't take risks - because i do.

i've learnt to respect all others - to see things from as many points of view as possible. then you start to understand why people do what they do - even if it is mindless violence. but it's not mindless to them.

noone will ever understand anything completely but we can go a long way at attempting to.

just start becoming more aware and you'll see fantastic things - belief in religon or not.

why follow something that is dictated?

but as long as it is your choice then you should be at ease.

Beautifully Stated. If I may say so myself

Originally posted by Maystar


why follow something that is dictated?

Do you mean that someone is able to assume that since they have "made up their own mind," they are more free thinking than someone else?

The way I see it, one cannot afford to not .

I guess my main problem with the above question is that it assumes that the person asking the question does not follow "something that has been dictated." -And that those who do "follow what is dictated" are somehow irrational or inferior to those who like to think of themselves as "free-thinkers."

It seems that this question follows from the idea that there is no absolute truth, which, once again, I see as contradictory and illogical. If it IS illogical that there is no absolute truth, it would make sense then that absolute Truth does exist. If there IS absolute Truth, it behooves all of us to at least seek to grasp that truth instead of skating around it and seeking what is convenient to our own whims, desires, and beliefs. I am not directing this in particular to you, Maystar, but to anyone who believes that each religion or world view or "truth" as it were is equally valid (which makes no sense).

Once again with IM trying to put here with the absolute truth thing is that, if there WAS an absolute truth this would mean only ONE religion would be right and all other religions would be believing the wrong thing.
Also what Im trying to put down is that nobody,that believes in a good hearted religion is believing something that is wrong or senseless.

Because if only one religion would be right, then at least 75% of the population would be believing something that is not true, does not exist, is false etc, thats my point. And if you think your religion is the absolute truth, so do alot of other religions, and gues what, one of all you people will be wrong is there is absolute truth, and nobody, christian or muslim, budhhist or pagan, has more chance of being right in the end. One of them is right, the others are mistaken. At least, if there was an absolute truth.

That's true!

I would disagree with the "chance" part, though. I don't believe in chance. I believe in certainty...

I would never say that "my religion is right" -only because that is not an absolutely true statement (and because it seems to imply a judgmental attitude). I would, however, say the Jesus is right (in an absolute sense). I say this, not out of blind faith in Him or (even less so) in a religion, but out of a combination of faith, experience, prayer, and study. If, by default, that makes all those who oopose or contradict Jesus' teaching wrong, so be it. I will say that I can learn a lot from studying other religions -but only as a contrast and provision for context for my understanding of God and my relationship with Him.